I also think that the Vibrams are more “stable” then chucks since they fit your feet pretty much to the millimeter.
Chucks and any other shoe, I always feel like my foot can slide in the shoe a little bit. I suppose socks help with this a bit.
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
jj-dude
Have you ever come across the gait guys? I forget where I first heard of them, if it was here or somewhere else.
Anyway, they have quit a few videos about gait, ankle rocker, and fixing issues.
Here’s a vid
Great! Never heard of them and thanks for the tip.
– jj
The problem is everyone had a giant boner for TOE shoes, not flats, not more mobile shoes, but motherfucking toe shoes. Nike couldn’t keep up with the time progress of the fad, but found a reasonable middle ground with their frees - a good transition point that many people casually ignored to keep up with the fad.
I personally made a gradual transition from age 19 to 22 from cross trainers to the nike free cross traner (sparq 7.0) cross country flats, to track flats, to vibrams. These days I split my time between the XC and track flats.
I’ve run in the things, but I don’t like it. I much prefer the flats just because of the platform it gives.
The only foot/ankle injuries that occurred in that time frame were from foot and ankle trauma during hockey and rugby. My ankle injuries in rugby decreased as my ankle complex strengthened from the progression.
My vibrams sit in my closet now unless it is deadlift day. The soles wore out pretty damn quickly for shoes twice the price of aforementioned XC flats.
This lawsuit? Idk, maybe some negligence payout if anyone ended up needing serious surgery when they used the vibrams in the manner in which vibram claimed as proper usage.
How much are they having to pay for making everyone wearing toe shoes look like a douche?
Exactly what claims did Vibram make that they got sued for?
I’m having trouble imagining what they could have said that they couldn’t have easily defended without having to settle. If they said wearing them would strengthen their feet I’m sure they could get all kinds of experts to testify that wearing them could lead to increased strength in the feet. I certainly would have been a willing expert witness.
If they said you would be less likely to turn your ankle in them than if wearing cross trainers, any high school sophomore with visions of being an engineer someday should know that this is true based on a brief comparison of the structures and a simple understanding of mechanics.
If they claimed they could reduce stress on the lower back or hips, again, they should be able to get plenty of expert witnesses to make a case. Heel striking does create a degree of tress on both the hips and lower back and Vibrams do reduce the tendency to heel strike.
And OP, seriously, you’re claiming the lack of a heel put stress on your hamstrings? How the hell is a lack of heel going to put stress on your hammys? And don’t say because you have overpronation. Dude, you’r putting blame where it doesn’t belong.
(1) Strengthen muscles in the feet and lower legs
(2) Improve range of motion in the ankles, feet, and toes
(3) Stimulate neural function important to balance and agility
(4) Eliminate heel lift to align the spine and improve posture
(5) Allow the foot and body to move naturally
These are the claims.
- Completely reasonable, intuitive and without need of scientific research to back it up.
- Reasonable. The ankle will be in a more flexed position which could lead to improve flexibility for some people.
- Complete bullshit but hardly something I can see getting sued over.
- A little dubious but they should be able to get a couple hundred chiropractors to testify #4 is true.
- It’s reasonable to say the foot and body will move more naturally in vibram type shoes.
My conclusion is they shouldn’t have settled but taken their chances in court. Although now I see the settlement was for only 3.75 million. I was expecting a lot more if everyone was going to be getting 20-50 dollars.
I’ve owned two pairs so far and have been a happy wearer…and I don’t “run” in them either - jogging for long distances. Now I do, and will continue to do HIIT in them, but I can’t say that I do HIIT often either and at most for 20mins. I mainly use them for lifting and walking, I use pendlay weightlifting shoes for squats and DL’s.
One thing I haven’t personally seen is Vibram as a company, business entity, advertising that their product lines will medically heal or improve problems with feet, a foot, posture, or leg problems. Mine did come with a warning as others have stated. I would like to see someone produce an actual Vibram ad with the medical claims, I’m genuinely interested and not trying to poke fun or be stupid or argumentative.
I can see if Vibram stated a study or studies that show barefoot activities show some benefit over traditional soled training shoes, but you can’t put blame on a company for citing studies and claiming that their product produces a “barefoot feel/effect”. Vibrams are literally foot gloves, so they do indeed produce a barefoot-like experience and if that’s all they claim, and cite a beneficial study, I highly doubt that could be correlated to giving out shady medical advice and being negligent thus causing people injuries.
if you take the time to transition from regular shoes to the vibrams, I don’t think there’s a problem. just as you wouldn’t try to bench 350 your first time stepping into the gym. sounds like another story of money hungry people working the system despite their own ignorance.
I mowed my acre lawn in them the other day. I like em because I have Fred Flintstone high arched gap towed monkey feet, and they actually fit. I lift in the often, do light cardio in them, but I was pre conditioned by wearing leather soled unsupportive dress shoes for years, so actual support and cushion feel funny anyways.
I think people could build strength in your feet through vibrafoms, if they go about intelligently, but that’s a big IF.
[quote]on edge wrote:
And OP, seriously, you’re claiming the lack of a heel put stress on your hamstrings? How the hell is a lack of heel going to put stress on your hammys? And don’t say because you have overpronation. Dude, you’r putting blame where it doesn’t belong.[/quote]
The possibility, albeit small, is there.
The hamstring complex has four different muscles:
semitendinosis and semimembranosus insert at the tibia (what most people refer to as the shin bone)
biceps femoris long and short head insert at the fibula (a smaller bone located lateral to the tibia).
So, take an individual with a combination of: a) going through daily activities in heel-elevated shoes; b) pre-existing issues with hamstring complex mobility; c) improper exercise selection, programming, etc; d) issues such as the OP described, the pronation, which can further worsen the matter.
Now take this individual who jumps right into training wearing the Vibrams (or anything similar) with little to no transitional phase. Then, yes, what the OP described can happen.
Someone can argue that the OP (or anyone in his situation) can simply make subtle adjustments to the angle in his knees and/or hips to compensate for the change in heel height. Unfortunately, people are going to perform a given movement the way that movement has been ingrained through repetition. This is especially true when the weight gets heavy or fatigue sets in. So I doubt very much the OP made the necessary adjustments when he switched to the Vibrams.
The reason I voiced my comments in this thread is not the Vibram issue in particular. It was more because of this naive belief that there exists some magical product that can replace the fundamentals such as intelligent programming, prehab, deload, and the knowledge that any given tool has its limitations.
I mowed my acre lawn in them the other day. I like em because I have Fred Flintstone high arched gap towed monkey feet, and they actually fit. I lift in the often, do light cardio in them, but I was pre conditioned by wearing leather soled unsupportive dress shoes for years, so actual support and cushion feel funny anyways.
I think people could build strength in your feet through vibrafoms, if they go about intelligently, but that’s a big IF.
Am I the only one here who lifts in flip flops…
YE look foolish…put on a pair of Chuck’s and embrace not looking foolish.
No difference.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
YE look foolish…put on a pair of Chuck’s and embrace not looking foolish.
No difference.[/quote]
In my defence, the rest of my gym attire ain’t any better…
I used to run 2500 and 5000m competitively in high school. I hated it because I was always injured. After I finished school I stopped running and life was good.
Then came a career change at age 25 that required me to under go some pretty strenuous “fitness testing” which included running. I began training and all my old injuries came back after the first week, and got progressively worse as time went on.
I went to a physical therapist for injury rehab and got referred to some place that would video my running gate from different angles, analyse my foot placement, weight distribution etc. and “prescribe” the perfect pair of running shoes. Well, after about $1500 and several pairs of shoes, I was back to square one injury wise.
Next stop was a podiatrist. I got some pretty fancy orthotics that had me injury free…for about three weeks. I went back and had more orthotics fitted which again had me injury free…for another three weeks.
I gave up completely and stopped wearing the orthotics. Big mistake! Even though I wasn’t running, I was getting the same injuries I had when I was.
As last resort I got a pair of Vibrams. Now here’s where most people get it wrong. I WENT TO THEIR WEBSITE AND READ SOME ARTICLES AND FORUM POSTS ON HOW TO USE THE PRODUCT. First, I just wore them around the house when I got home from work. Next, I went for some short walks around my neighborhood. This progressed to a one mile run on grass three times a week. At this point I increased my distance by 10% a week.
I am now completely injury free. In fairness, using Vibram five fingers is essentially a form of barefoot running, all they do is protect your skin from wearing through. Another thing to remember is that you have to change the way you run. You cant go pounding the pavement in your usual heel-to-toe, awful running form; this would become unbearably painful very quickly. A mid to forefoot ground strike is needed, pretty much like the Poise running method (running like fruitcake).
Why not just practice Poise? For me, as soon I get tired or lose concentration, my form breaks down and I get injured. Vibrams force me use good running form.
Even though I still hate running, I’m injury free and can easily pass all my tests to keep me operational.
I won’t be asking for any money back and will continue to buy their product.
[quote]KAS wrote:
I used to run 2500 and 5000m competitively in high school. I hated it because I was always injured. After I finished school I stopped running and life was good.
Then came a career change at age 25 that required me to under go some pretty strenuous “fitness testing” which included running. I began training and all my old injuries came back after the first week, and got progressively worse as time went on.
I went to a physical therapist for injury rehab and got referred to some place that would video my running gate from different angles, analyse my foot placement, weight distribution etc. and “prescribe” the perfect pair of running shoes. Well, after about $1500 and several pairs of shoes, I was back to square one injury wise.
Next stop was a podiatrist. I got some pretty fancy orthotics that had me injury free…for about three weeks. I went back and had more orthotics fitted which again had me injury free…for another three weeks.
I gave up completely and stopped wearing the orthotics. Big mistake! Even though I wasn’t running, I was getting the same injuries I had when I was.
As last resort I got a pair of Vibrams. Now here’s where most people get it wrong. I WENT TO THEIR WEBSITE AND READ SOME ARTICLES AND FORUM POSTS ON HOW TO USE THE PRODUCT. First, I just wore them around the house when I got home from work. Next, I went for some short walks around my neighborhood. This progressed to a one mile run on grass three times a week. At this point I increased my distance by 10% a week.
I am now completely injury free. In fairness, using Vibram five fingers is essentially a form of barefoot running, all they do is protect your skin from wearing through. Another thing to remember is that you have to change the way you run. You cant go pounding the pavement in your usual heel-to-toe, awful running form; this would become unbearably painful very quickly. A mid to forefoot ground strike is needed, pretty much like the Poise running method (running like fruitcake).
Why not just practice Poise? For me, as soon I get tired or lose concentration, my form breaks down and I get injured. Vibrams force me use good running form.
Even though I still hate running, I’m injury free and can easily pass all my tests to keep me operational.
I won’t be asking for any money back and will continue to buy their product. [/quote]
In case anyone is trying to google, its Pose, not Poise. But everything else is good.
[quote]KAS wrote:
Another thing to remember is that you have to change the way you run. You cant go pounding the pavement in your usual heel-to-toe, awful running form; this would become unbearably painful very quickly. A mid to forefoot ground strike is needed, pretty much like the Poise running method (running like fruitcake).
[/quote]
A very good statement on how to run in Vibrams. When I do HIIT which is sprint intervals on a treadmill mostly this is how I run as well. I too, started out slowly with Vibrams a few years ago the way KAS did and I have had no issues whatsoever. When I wear regular shoes to my DD’s softball practices (required by the league) to assist with coaching and such, the arch in my left foot hurts like hell when I have to run. If only Vibrams made cleated versions, lol, so I wouldn’t slip on grass etc.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
YE look foolish…put on a pair of Chuck’s and embrace not looking foolish.
No difference.[/quote]
I always felt foolish in chucks lol
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]KAS wrote:
I used to run 2500 and 5000m competitively in high school. I hated it because I was always injured. After I finished school I stopped running and life was good.
Then came a career change at age 25 that required me to under go some pretty strenuous “fitness testing” which included running. I began training and all my old injuries came back after the first week, and got progressively worse as time went on.
I went to a physical therapist for injury rehab and got referred to some place that would video my running gate from different angles, analyse my foot placement, weight distribution etc. and “prescribe” the perfect pair of running shoes. Well, after about $1500 and several pairs of shoes, I was back to square one injury wise.
Next stop was a podiatrist. I got some pretty fancy orthotics that had me injury free…for about three weeks. I went back and had more orthotics fitted which again had me injury free…for another three weeks.
I gave up completely and stopped wearing the orthotics. Big mistake! Even though I wasn’t running, I was getting the same injuries I had when I was.
As last resort I got a pair of Vibrams. Now here’s where most people get it wrong. I WENT TO THEIR WEBSITE AND READ SOME ARTICLES AND FORUM POSTS ON HOW TO USE THE PRODUCT. First, I just wore them around the house when I got home from work. Next, I went for some short walks around my neighborhood. This progressed to a one mile run on grass three times a week. At this point I increased my distance by 10% a week.
I am now completely injury free. In fairness, using Vibram five fingers is essentially a form of barefoot running, all they do is protect your skin from wearing through. Another thing to remember is that you have to change the way you run. You cant go pounding the pavement in your usual heel-to-toe, awful running form; this would become unbearably painful very quickly. A mid to forefoot ground strike is needed, pretty much like the Poise running method (running like fruitcake).
Why not just practice Poise? For me, as soon I get tired or lose concentration, my form breaks down and I get injured. Vibrams force me use good running form.
Even though I still hate running, I’m injury free and can easily pass all my tests to keep me operational.
I won’t be asking for any money back and will continue to buy their product. [/quote]
In case anyone is trying to google, its Pose, not Poise. But everything else is good. [/quote]
What about the part about running the 2500 in HS track?
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]KAS wrote:
I used to run 2500 and 5000m competitively in high school. I hated it because I was always injured. After I finished school I stopped running and life was good.
Then came a career change at age 25 that required me to under go some pretty strenuous “fitness testing” which included running. I began training and all my old injuries came back after the first week, and got progressively worse as time went on.
I went to a physical therapist for injury rehab and got referred to some place that would video my running gate from different angles, analyse my foot placement, weight distribution etc. and “prescribe” the perfect pair of running shoes. Well, after about $1500 and several pairs of shoes, I was back to square one injury wise.
Next stop was a podiatrist. I got some pretty fancy orthotics that had me injury free…for about three weeks. I went back and had more orthotics fitted which again had me injury free…for another three weeks.
I gave up completely and stopped wearing the orthotics. Big mistake! Even though I wasn’t running, I was getting the same injuries I had when I was.
As last resort I got a pair of Vibrams. Now here’s where most people get it wrong. I WENT TO THEIR WEBSITE AND READ SOME ARTICLES AND FORUM POSTS ON HOW TO USE THE PRODUCT. First, I just wore them around the house when I got home from work. Next, I went for some short walks around my neighborhood. This progressed to a one mile run on grass three times a week. At this point I increased my distance by 10% a week.
I am now completely injury free. In fairness, using Vibram five fingers is essentially a form of barefoot running, all they do is protect your skin from wearing through. Another thing to remember is that you have to change the way you run. You cant go pounding the pavement in your usual heel-to-toe, awful running form; this would become unbearably painful very quickly. A mid to forefoot ground strike is needed, pretty much like the Poise running method (running like fruitcake).
Why not just practice Poise? For me, as soon I get tired or lose concentration, my form breaks down and I get injured. Vibrams force me use good running form.
Even though I still hate running, I’m injury free and can easily pass all my tests to keep me operational.
I won’t be asking for any money back and will continue to buy their product. [/quote]
In case anyone is trying to google, its Pose, not Poise. But everything else is good. [/quote]
What about the part about running the 2500 in HS track?[/quote]
Sorry, should have been clearer. The 2500 was not track, it was cross country type event. Didn’t seem to catch on.