Why the hell couldn’t you say something about this sooner. Would have saved me a lot on new cars and insurance premiums.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
This speaks more to your own mobility issues than the shoes. I spent almost every summer barefoot the entire time I was around the house, running and playing, since I was a child and I have never had an injury problem. Actually, making it through years of basketball and tennis without the first overuse/mobility injury in my feet or ankles would indicate that those areas are pretty durable. Like I said, this sounds like people blaming their own stuff on some shoes.
[/quote]
While the lawsuits are bullshit, they don’t mentioned the explosion of achilles tears in older runners since the barefoot craze started. If you research it they advise against older runners using a zero drop shoe.
I went to the New balance brand of zero drop shoes and immediately started having achilles problems. Went to a shoe with a 4mm drop instead of zero and the problems cleared up.
If I remember correctly you are pretty young to be having issues from these shoes.
[/quote]
Yeah, but I would venture to say that with enough work to adapt to it, people could develop the ability to function appropriately barefooted. With modern shoes it really isn’t a big deal one way or the other but don’t blame it own the shoes if you went all gung ho with a new training methodology and hurt yourself. Maybe sometimes, like with older individuals, the pattern of moving with a more traditional shoe is so engrained that trying to change at this point would take a very very long time so an intermediary step (the 4mm) would be a much advised stop. I cant speak to that, because although my mobility in most of my body is questionable, my ankles are actually very flexible.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
This speaks more to your own mobility issues than the shoes. I spent almost every summer barefoot the entire time I was around the house, running and playing, since I was a child and I have never had an injury problem. Actually, making it through years of basketball and tennis without the first overuse/mobility injury in my feet or ankles would indicate that those areas are pretty durable. Like I said, this sounds like people blaming their own stuff on some shoes.
[/quote]
While the lawsuits are bullshit, they don’t mentioned the explosion of achilles tears in older runners since the barefoot craze started. If you research it they advise against older runners using a zero drop shoe.
I went to the New balance brand of zero drop shoes and immediately started having achilles problems. Went to a shoe with a 4mm drop instead of zero and the problems cleared up.
If I remember correctly you are pretty young to be having issues from these shoes.
[/quote]
Yeah, but I would venture to say that with enough work to adapt to it, people could develop the ability to function appropriately barefooted. With modern shoes it really isn’t a big deal one way or the other but don’t blame it own the shoes if you went all gung ho with a new training methodology and hurt yourself. Maybe sometimes, like with older individuals, the pattern of moving with a more traditional shoe is so engrained that trying to change at this point would take a very very long time so an intermediary step (the 4mm) would be a much advised stop. I cant speak to that, because although my mobility in most of my body is questionable, my ankles are actually very flexible.
[/quote]
The funny part is I spend as much time as practical barefoot and the gait from these shoes is much more natural to my running style. They just tear up my achilles though.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
This speaks more to your own mobility issues than the shoes. I spent almost every summer barefoot the entire time I was around the house, running and playing, since I was a child and I have never had an injury problem. Actually, making it through years of basketball and tennis without the first overuse/mobility injury in my feet or ankles would indicate that those areas are pretty durable. Like I said, this sounds like people blaming their own stuff on some shoes.
[/quote]
While the lawsuits are bullshit, they don’t mentioned the explosion of achilles tears in older runners since the barefoot craze started. If you research it they advise against older runners using a zero drop shoe.
I went to the New balance brand of zero drop shoes and immediately started having achilles problems. Went to a shoe with a 4mm drop instead of zero and the problems cleared up.
If I remember correctly you are pretty young to be having issues from these shoes.
[/quote]
Yeah, but I would venture to say that with enough work to adapt to it, people could develop the ability to function appropriately barefooted. With modern shoes it really isn’t a big deal one way or the other but don’t blame it own the shoes if you went all gung ho with a new training methodology and hurt yourself. Maybe sometimes, like with older individuals, the pattern of moving with a more traditional shoe is so engrained that trying to change at this point would take a very very long time so an intermediary step (the 4mm) would be a much advised stop. I cant speak to that, because although my mobility in most of my body is questionable, my ankles are actually very flexible.
[/quote]
The funny part is I spend as much time as practical barefoot and the gait from these shoes is much more natural to my running style. They just tear up my achilles though.
[/quote]
Hm… Do you run/do conditioning barefoot ever?
I run and hike in mine and love them.
I think the problem is that if you’ve worn thick supportive shoes your whole life you can’t just take them off and have everything revert back to if you’d never worn them. If I’d worn a lifting belt my whole life and one day went and did more natural lifting without it, I’d probably get hurt.
Mine actually came with a warning too. They said that you can hurt yourself if you aren’t used to it and to work into wearing them very gradually. That was several years ago.
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
I’d say the difference here is that Vibrams were sold effectively as a do-it-yourself orthopedic equipment. No place did they give a list of conditions that contra-indicate with it – the store rep told me they’d strengthen my feet and fix the issue. Nope. Made it a lot worse to the point I was having trouble standing without tearing a hamstring.
If they had a warning rather than a breathless ad that told me they’d help I probably would not have gotten a pair. Generally I take damn good care of myself and stay on top of my training. I do not appreciate being systematically lied to about health matters. Do any of you?
– jj[/quote]
In all honestly, did you really think a pair of shoes would fix your hamstring issue?[/quote]
In all honesty I did not have a real hamstring issue, just sore, flat feet and sometimes a little tweakiness. I now have a bad chronic issue, ok? So yes, they took it from being a sometimes nagging problem (sometimes stiff and have to pop) to a very bad one indeed. My podiatrist measured a tremendous difference before and after when I went back to see him and he said he’d seen rather a lot of it in other people from Vibrams and other minimally soled shoes. Again, had they mentioned that was even a possibility I would not have considered them.
– jj[/quote]
This is making me even more curious as to the answer to my question. Can you touch your toes? How is your ankle mobility? Do you stretch your hip flexors? Do you do any fascia release? How often do you squat and deadlift? How much mobility work do you do each day?
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Mine actually came with a warning too. They said that you can hurt yourself if you aren’t used to it and to work into wearing them very gradually. That was several years ago.[/quote]
Mine did as well.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
This speaks more to your own mobility issues than the shoes. I spent almost every summer barefoot the entire time I was around the house, running and playing, since I was a child and I have never had an injury problem. Actually, making it through years of basketball and tennis without the first overuse/mobility injury in my feet or ankles would indicate that those areas are pretty durable. Like I said, this sounds like people blaming their own stuff on some shoes.
[/quote]
While the lawsuits are bullshit, they don’t mentioned the explosion of achilles tears in older runners since the barefoot craze started. If you research it they advise against older runners using a zero drop shoe.
I went to the New balance brand of zero drop shoes and immediately started having achilles problems. Went to a shoe with a 4mm drop instead of zero and the problems cleared up.
If I remember correctly you are pretty young to be having issues from these shoes.
[/quote]
Yeah, but I would venture to say that with enough work to adapt to it, people could develop the ability to function appropriately barefooted. With modern shoes it really isn’t a big deal one way or the other but don’t blame it own the shoes if you went all gung ho with a new training methodology and hurt yourself. Maybe sometimes, like with older individuals, the pattern of moving with a more traditional shoe is so engrained that trying to change at this point would take a very very long time so an intermediary step (the 4mm) would be a much advised stop. I cant speak to that, because although my mobility in most of my body is questionable, my ankles are actually very flexible.
[/quote]
The funny part is I spend as much time as practical barefoot and the gait from these shoes is much more natural to my running style. They just tear up my achilles though.
[/quote]
Hm… Do you run/do conditioning barefoot ever?[/quote]
No, but I lift in skater shoes.
I have two pairs, never any issues. I also never saw any statements about them fixing orthopedic issues, and they certainly weren’t purchased with that in mind.
Definitely won’t be filing any paperwork to collect as I don’t support this class action lawsuit.
As for jj-dude, often you post very well thought out explanations/opinions, so it’s kind of surprising that you’re blaming your hamstring issue on foot wear. I really wonder how much work you must’ve put into your hamstring issue.
I have a very high/strong arch, and have never had any foot problems. If I were to consider transitioning into these for running, I would do so very cautiously as I’ve always ran in shoes, and if barefoot, probably was in sand.
Shame that common logic is lacking in so many.
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
I have two pairs, never any issues. I also never saw any statements about them fixing orthopedic issues, and they certainly weren’t purchased with that in mind.
Definitely won’t be filing any paperwork to collect as I don’t support this class action lawsuit.
As for jj-dude, often you post very well thought out explanations/opinions, so it’s kind of surprising that you’re blaming your hamstring issue on foot wear. I really wonder how much work you must’ve put into your hamstring issue.
I have a very high/strong arch, and have never had any foot problems. If I were to consider transitioning into these for running, I would do so very cautiously as I’ve always ran in shoes, and if barefoot, probably was in sand.
Shame that common logic is lacking in so many.[/quote]
"Never UnderEstimate the Power of Human Stupidity ! "
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
As for jj-dude, often you post very well thought out explanations/opinions, so it’s kind of surprising that you’re blaming your hamstring issue on foot wear. I really wonder how much work you must’ve put into your hamstring issue.
Shame that common logic is lacking in so many.[/quote]
I am blaming it on overpronation. Vibrams were mis-represented as a way to help with overpronation problems.
csulli - Timeline or this is years. About 4 years ago was when I got the Vibrams and got a chronic condition from them. Mostly I am a martial artist, but took up serious lifting about 3.5 years ago. That fixed the issue nicely. Then I had to get shoulder surgery and laid off training for some (8) months. The issue returned as my lower body deconditioned and could not balance the heads of the hamstring. Fortunately I have been able to get back into realistic training. The surest cure I have found is HAKS = heavy-ass KB swings, at about 50% - 60% bodyweight. Also sufficiently heavy deads seem to be able to keep it happy too. Since I love deads, this is a Good Thing.
The overpronation issue (this is from my podiatrist) causes the two inner heads of the right hamstrings to get overactive and too strong. This in turn causes the issue of having the hamstring unable to relax and let me fully extend the leg without risking injury. This is usually with no trouble as long as I can train.
As for the rest of y’all… Moral here is that it is hard to communicate on a good day and assuming that everyone else is a total fucking moron because you don’t understand the whole story seems pretty demeaning and conceited. Course, I’m full of shit, so what do I know?
– jj
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
This speaks more to your own mobility issues than the shoes. I spent almost every summer barefoot the entire time I was around the house, running and playing, since I was a child and I have never had an injury problem. Actually, making it through years of basketball and tennis without the first overuse/mobility injury in my feet or ankles would indicate that those areas are pretty durable. Like I said, this sounds like people blaming their own stuff on some shoes.
[/quote]
While the lawsuits are bullshit, they don’t mentioned the explosion of achilles tears in older runners since the barefoot craze started. If you research it they advise against older runners using a zero drop shoe.
I went to the New balance brand of zero drop shoes and immediately started having achilles problems. Went to a shoe with a 4mm drop instead of zero and the problems cleared up.
If I remember correctly you are pretty young to be having issues from these shoes.
[/quote]
Yeah, but I would venture to say that with enough work to adapt to it, people could develop the ability to function appropriately barefooted. With modern shoes it really isn’t a big deal one way or the other but don’t blame it own the shoes if you went all gung ho with a new training methodology and hurt yourself. Maybe sometimes, like with older individuals, the pattern of moving with a more traditional shoe is so engrained that trying to change at this point would take a very very long time so an intermediary step (the 4mm) would be a much advised stop. I cant speak to that, because although my mobility in most of my body is questionable, my ankles are actually very flexible.
[/quote]
The funny part is I spend as much time as practical barefoot and the gait from these shoes is much more natural to my running style. They just tear up my achilles though.
[/quote]
Hm… Do you run/do conditioning barefoot ever?[/quote]
No, but I lift in skater shoes.
[/quote]
I was just curious. I actually find lifting more comfortable in a raised heel shoe, but when conditioning at home I am mostly barefoot, I also play a lot of pickup football and softball games during the summer barefooted, unless you get several people with cleats or shoes on. Its no fun getting your foot stepped on that way.
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
As for the rest of y’all… Moral here is that it is hard to communicate on a good day and assuming that everyone else is a total fucking moron because you don’t understand the whole story seems pretty demeaning and conceited. Course, I’m full of shit, so what do I know?
– jj[/quote]
Oh don’t be so hard on yourself. You know those “One Weird Trick to lose fat and build muscle”, “Eat this, never diet again” and “Scientists Hate Him” ads you see on the internet?
I clicked on it once, and I’m still pretty fat. I know what its like to feel cheated.
caveat emptor
If there are a few latin phrases that people should know and embrace, this is one of them.
OP, by all means get that refund since the product not only failed to deliver on its promise, it (according to you) made your condition worse.
Before you open your wallet next time, it may be prudent to thoroughly research the product first rather than listen to the marketing dept. or the sales pitch of someone whose job is to do just that - sell.
If you’ve been primarily training in shoes with a slight heel elevation and then switch to the Vibrams, that’s going to place your hamstring complex in just enough of a stretched position. Add this to your faulty programming and any prior mobility issues…
Your posts show a history of multiple injuries to different parts of the body. That tells me your program and overall approach to strength/conditioning is inherently flawed. No single product will resolve this.
And this attempt at a Partheon shot with the statement
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
Course, I’m full of shit, so what do I know?
– jj[/quote]
may garner empathy from some but not from everyone. And it certainly won’t earn respect.
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
My personal experience was that they made my hamstring issues vastly worse. I understand that if you have excellent feet (mine are f-l-a-t) these might work. Vibram however must pay for their false advertising. Since nearly 75 million of these have been sold, this is a drop in the bucket though.
Thoughts? Anyone aside from me thinking of getting their money back?
– jj
(Edit:I didn’t see any other thread about this on T-Nation, so I am starting one.)[/quote]
If they actually caused problems rather than them being merely ineffective, you might want to look into opting out of the class settlement and pursuing your own claim. A refund is peanuts.
jj-dude
Have you ever come across the gait guys? I forget where I first heard of them, if it was here or somewhere else.
Anyway, they have quit a few videos about gait, ankle rocker, and fixing issues.
Here’s a vid
I hated those stupid shoes.
There has been some research regarding barefoot running, pros and cons, etc, not specifically about Vibrams, right?
Buyer beware and all that, but that kind of marketing makes it harder to do stuff. At the very least, it makes it more expensive. Think about the iffy supplements we’ve al bought, and at least part of it was marketing. If I tried something and I could trace an injury I was trying to prevent like jj-dude did, I’d be furious.
I have several pairs and I’m not going for the refund. I got them for non-running activities, and they’re really comfortable, so I got what I wanted.
I switched to chuck’s from basketball shoes shortly after finding this site.
How much of a difference do they really make? I love my chucks
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I switched to chuck’s from basketball shoes shortly after finding this site.
How much of a difference do they really make? I love my chucks[/quote]
If you get the right pair, it’s like being barefoot.
I’ve been wearing them for 4-5 years and have never had a problem, but I don’t run in them. They replaced my gym shoes and sandals because I found them comfortable.