The product you’re talking about appears to raise T to crazy levels because it’s so chemically close to T that it screws up the labs.
True it’s not an AI, but REV-Z is claimed to:
“Acts as both an estrogen antagonist and an aromatase inhibitor.”
Unfortunately that’s somewhat ambiguous. How effective is it really? Any one have any experience with REV-Z?
1998, Dr Eugene Shippen:
States that resveratrol improves the P540 enzyme system, which decreases estrogen. He does not state that it has any affect on aromatase.
States that zinc reduces aromatase enzyme levels.
[quote]KSman wrote:
And please be more specific than “estrogen blockers” These are AIs or SERMs? Long term use of SERMs can lead to serious side effects. And if something works as well as you suggest, someone in Congress or the DEA will make it illegal or highly controlled.[/quote]
You have made this statement in a few other threads and I am quite interested in what you have researched with regards to long term SERM use. Just a few questions:
-
Are the side effects (long term…please define what the research indicated as “long term”) dose related? If you are referring to the vision issues, this I understand was linked to dosages over 100 mg/day for several weeks.
-
Are the side effects you mention have to do with SOME guys experiencing emotional issues? If so, I have to say that this is HIGHLY individual as I know just as many folks using CLOMID for upping their T who do not have this experience. Note that their dosages only go up to 50 mg/day…and most are using 50 mg EOD or 25 mg EOD in their usages.
-
Are the side effects relating to the buildup of natural E2 due to aromatization of the extra T produced? This extra E2 has no where to go but to occupy the androgen receptor sincethe SERM is occupying the estrogen receptors. Adding in an AI (whatever one you choose) will deal quite nicely with the aromatase.
Just wanted to know. I’ve been quite curious of your statement and am hoping for more of your good info here. Thanks.
[quote]Greek Tarzan wrote:
Both of the OTC estrogen blockers that I have had success with were AI’s (aromatase inhibitors).
The high end of normal T-Levels is around 1000 (generalization) and I got my T-levels to 1820, and I believe you can get them as high as 2,000 but not higher than that. Since men who don’t produce estrogen at all naturally, have T-levels at only at 2,000.
At a bodybuilding event T-levels were checked and the average T-level was 3,000, some men were at 10,000, one at 30,000, and one at 0(he just came off a bad cycle). So AI’s will never replace Prohormones or Steroids but they are a neat way to get your T-levels to normal. Going beyond normal levels is not healthy in the long run any way.
[/quote]
Hello Greek Tarzan.
Please…you must stop the suspense. What is this magical OTC E-blocker you are writing about? Other than your amazing bloodtest result, I find it EXTREMELY difficult to believe an over the counter product can do better than true blue drugs (and powerful ones) like real SERMS and real AIs.
Just can’t believe it…but I can definitely be convinced. Please give us the name of this product and I and several others on this board will research it.
And, for my education, where did you get the figures of 2000 as being the top end for men who “produce no estrogen at all naturally?” Please please don’t tell me it came from a bodybuilding mag or report.
[quote]buffd_samurai wrote
You have made this statement in a few other threads and I am quite interested in what you have researched with regards to long term SERM use. Just a few questions:
-
Are the side effects (long term…please define what the research indicated as “long term”) dose related? If you are referring to the vision issues, this I understand was linked to dosages over 100 mg/day for several weeks.
-
Are the side effects you mention have to do with SOME guys experiencing emotional issues? If so, I have to say that this is HIGHLY individual as I know just as many folks using CLOMID for upping their T who do not have this experience. Note that their dosages only go up to 50 mg/day…and most are using 50 mg EOD or 25 mg EOD in their usages.
-
Are the side effects relating to the buildup of natural E2 due to aromatization of the extra T produced? This extra E2 has no where to go but to occupy the androgen receptor since the SERM is occupying the estrogen receptors. Adding in an AI (whatever one you choose) will deal quite nicely with the aromatase.
Just wanted to know. I’ve been quite curious of your statement and am hoping for more of your good info here. Thanks.[/quote]
- -yes to vision problems
Selective estrogen receptor modulator - Wikipedia
“”"
Some SERMs may be good replacements for hormone replacement therapy (HRT), which recent studies have called into question, although the above agents still have an unacceptably high risk of thrombosis and other side-effects to allow for widespread use.“”"
Yes, clinical data is for women and men take less. I don’t see the need to take these long term. Yes, many are not affected by this clomid effect. But this does highlight effects from increased E or the direct estrogenic effects of these on some tissues.
Guys crying while watching a chick flick does raise alarms. There are also effects that one is not aware of and we do not know if these silent effects are good or bad. The loads on the P450 enzymes may create secondary effects.
Tamoxifen needs to be metabolized by the P450 enzymes to convert it to its active form. There are some implications to this and that might also explain part of the increases of serum estrogen.
For TRT, I don’t feel that one should be taking these drugs everyday for the rest of one’s life. Yes, women take more, but they get cured and stop taking SERMs or they die. So there is no long term [life long] data to use. Women to not take SERMs for decades. There is no long term data.
-
Yes, estrogen effects on some tissues. Again partly from the P450 link.
-
Yes again, and also the direct estrogenic effects of SERMs on some tissues. I don’t know if the claims of this are really direct or secondary to some tissues not getting protection from E. I have not search to find any in-vitro research that would speak to this.
I do not want to give anyone the impression that life long use of SERMs is safe. So I must push in the opposite direction.
For TRT, do we really want to stack SERMs and AIs for decades? I
All of this needs to be contrasted with the use of hCG. hCG is something that is not foreign in the human body. It is very similar to LH and FST that we are designed to have in our bodies throughout life. This seems safe to me.
-increased E
-effects of increase E in some tissues, and ?direct effects?
-stress on liver P450 enzymes, affecting general metabolism, increasing serum E and affecting how the body processes other drugs and alcohol
That is what forms my opinion. Use something safer if possible.
What is your take on this?
[quote]KSman wrote:
All of this needs to be contrasted with the use of hCG. hCG is something that is not foreign in the human body. It is very similar to LH and FST that we are designed to have in our bodies throughout life. This seems safe to me.
[/quote]
All of what you said on post above is great information,
I just want to point something out so members do not get confused
hcg does not supply a FSH substitute. I don’t think you are implying this, just wanted to make sue
On hcG, FSH is depressed. If one can get, and afford, a FSH substitute such as hmG, to run along side with hcG, that would be best.
[quote]Get out the Door wrote:
KSman wrote:
All of this needs to be contrasted with the use of hCG. hCG is something that is not foreign in the human body. It is very similar to LH and FST that we are designed to have in our bodies throughout life. This seems safe to me.
All of what you said on post above is great information,
I just want to point something out so members do not get confused
hcg does not supply a FSH substitute. I don’t think you are implying this, just wanted to make sue
On hcG, FSH is depressed. If one can get, and afford, a FSH substitute such as hmG, to run along side with hcG, that would be best. [/quote]
From the hCG package insert:
… has alpha and beta sub-units
the alpha sub-unit is essentially identical to sub-units of LH AND FSH
I was thinking that this made hCG act as both… WRONG.
I found this at wikipedia and it states that the beta unit is the business end for FSH receptors.
Its structure is similar to those of LH, TSH, and hCG. The protein dimer contains 2 polypeptide units, labeled alpha and beta subunits. The alpha subunits of LH, FSH, TSH, and hCG are identical, and contain 92 amino acids.
The beta subunits vary. FSH has a beta subunit of 118 amino acids (FSHB), which confers its specific biologic action and is responsible for interaction with the FSH-receptor.
FSH is needed for sperm production. For guys on TRT that are not having more kids, hCG alone seems like all that one would want.
Also:
…action of hCG is virtually identical to LH, although hCG does have a small degree of FSH activity…
[quote]KSman wrote:
buffd_samurai wrote
You have made this statement in a few other threads and I am quite interested in what you have researched with regards to long term SERM use. Just a few questions:
-
Are the side effects (long term…please define what the research indicated as “long term”) dose related? If you are referring to the vision issues, this I understand was linked to dosages over 100 mg/day for several weeks.
-
Are the side effects you mention have to do with SOME guys experiencing emotional issues? If so, I have to say that this is HIGHLY individual as I know just as many folks using CLOMID for upping their T who do not have this experience. Note that their dosages only go up to 50 mg/day…and most are using 50 mg EOD or 25 mg EOD in their usages.
-
Are the side effects relating to the buildup of natural E2 due to aromatization of the extra T produced? This extra E2 has no where to go but to occupy the androgen receptor since the SERM is occupying the estrogen receptors. Adding in an AI (whatever one you choose) will deal quite nicely with the aromatase.
Just wanted to know. I’ve been quite curious of your statement and am hoping for more of your good info here. Thanks.
- -yes to vision problems
Selective estrogen receptor modulator - Wikipedia
“”"
Some SERMs may be good replacements for hormone replacement therapy (HRT), which recent studies have called into question, although the above agents still have an unacceptably high risk of thrombosis and other side-effects to allow for widespread use.“”"
Yes, clinical data is for women and men take less. I don’t see the need to take these long term. Yes, many are not affected by this clomid effect. But this does highlight effects from increased E or the direct estrogenic effects of these on some tissues.
Guys crying while watching a chick flick does raise alarms. There are also effects that one is not aware of and we do not know if these silent effects are good or bad. The loads on the P450 enzymes may create secondary effects.
Tamoxifen needs to be metabolized by the P450 enzymes to convert it to its active form. There are some implications to this and that might also explain part of the increases of serum estrogen.
For TRT, I don’t feel that one should be taking these drugs everyday for the rest of one’s life. Yes, women take more, but they get cured and stop taking SERMs or they die. So there is no long term [life long] data to use. Women to not take SERMs for decades. There is no long term data.
-
Yes, estrogen effects on some tissues. Again partly from the P450 link.
-
Yes again, and also the direct estrogenic effects of SERMs on some tissues. I don’t know if the claims of this are really direct or secondary to some tissues not getting protection from E. I have not search to find any in-vitro research that would speak to this.
I do not want to give anyone the impression that life long use of SERMs is safe. So I must push in the opposite direction.
For TRT, do we really want to stack SERMs and AIs for decades? I
All of this needs to be contrasted with the use of hCG. hCG is something that is not foreign in the human body. It is very similar to LH and FST that we are designed to have in our bodies throughout life. This seems safe to me.
-increased E
-effects of increase E in some tissues, and ?direct effects?
-stress on liver P450 enzymes, affecting general metabolism, increasing serum E and affecting how the body processes other drugs and alcohol
That is what forms my opinion. Use something safer if possible.
What is your take on this?
[/quote]
I think you’ve put forth some good info as usual; info that I thought formed your opinion. I was merely looking to see if there was anything “extra” that I didn’t consider, and you came through and mentioned the need for Novaldex to be metabolized by P450 before it becomes “active”. This I did not know, as well as your information with regards to E clearance also requiring P450. Interesting stuff; you have educated me…thankyou.
My opinion: if one were to take high dosages (I consider 100 mg of Clomid to be a high dosage) over long periods of time, I can see possible vision disturbances as well as P450 loading that is probably not a good thing. This being said, I think further study is required though with respect to how much loading this amount would really have on P450…I’m actually of the belief that the liver can withstand alot and if one is not abusing the P450 system with alcohol intake, alpha-alkylated oral steroid use, or other drugs that depend heavily on the P450 enzymes, then a small amount of SERM taken everyday won’t be that bad actually. Small amount = 50 mg/day or less.
As always though, individuality rules. One person’s P450 system is not anothers, and careful experimentation is needed IF one wants to pursue this route. As with all drugs (except natural analogues like hCG or T), I think getting off often is the safest most sane route.