wanting to up my test. levels using only clomid. is it likely i’ll see any worth while (steroid characteristics) hypertrophy/recovery/strength improvements? Or would you need to take it during/after a cycle for it to have any real noticable effects?
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[quote]Milton wrote:
wanting to up my test. levels using only clomid. is it likely i’ll see any worth while (steroid characteristics) hypertrophy/recovery/strength improvements? Or would you need to take it during/after a cycle for it to have any real noticable effects?[/quote]
Dan Duchainne, the steroid guru, took nolvadex for 2 years. Nolvadex is similar to clomid. He claimed no dramatic changes but some leaning in the legs.
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As a stand alone product I’d expect little in the ways of gains from Clomid or Nolva as mentioned above. [BTW, Clomid should not be used on cycle as it will do nothing to prevent gyno]. There’s some debate about using a true AI. MesoRX had an interested article on using Letro as a stand-alone product.
Considering how much these ancillaries cost to begin with, you might as well spend a bit more and get stuff that really works
I’ve used clomid as a stand alone before. I wondered the same thing as you but no one could give me a straight answer. So I just tried it myself.
Dosage was much like a PCT. 100mg/day/wk then 50mg/day/3wk. It dried me out like a son of a bitch. The first couple days I was sucking down water like there was no tomorrow. I noticed an overall improved sense of well being. I also had a marked improvement in libido and sexual function. I had no vision or emotional sides from this dosage.
There was no icreadible muscle gains or steroid like effects. Although having an improved sense of well being improved my workouts.
I followed the month of clomid up with a month of Rez-V and Alpha Male. Overall I would say clomid is much like taking a test boosting supplement but its cheaper. Hope this helps.
While protocols are typically around 100 mg/day for the first couple weeks, improvements in test and T:E have been found with dosages at 25 mg/day:
Additionally, the eye problems associated with clomid have mostly been documented at 100 mg/day.
and
Sounds like a good standalone test booster as the above poster mentioned.
if you want to boost test levels, and dont want to juice, why not just use something like blue-up or some other natural test boosters. the gains will be minimal(even though it really depends on age for efficiency)in comparison to steroids, i think gains would be slightly better with a nat. booster than using clomid standalone.
why waste good clomid? lol. id try these first before wasting money on the clomid.
I’m a 44 year old male that has been on 50 clomiphene EOD for two years now (put on by a Urologist that is a fertility specialists - otherwise…most MD’s don’t have a clue about Clomid).
My total T levels went from around 300 to 780 in less than 1 months. My free T improved dramatically with + FSH, LH. Had the option of say Androgel … but want a sperm count (don’t want kids…great birth control…get on Test…will go to zero) and balls that aren’t raisins.
Anyway, interesting … my eye sight got better…yes better - From a -1.75 to -1.5 (according to my eye MD…think there is some correlation between eye sight changes and certain hormones).
I would say that clomid is a nice alternative answer for a male that has secondary hypogonadism, serious endurance athlete or someone wanting to take their 400-500 total T levels (which suck) to 800-900. Big changes in strength / endurance…yes/no…but for me how many 40+ year olds are walking around with 800 T levels everyday…hardly any.
Feel like I’m in my 20’s…athletically…with so far zero side affects. Plus only a $10 co-pay monthly for generic Watson Clomiphene.
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[quote]bikerboy wrote:
I’m a 44 year old male that has been on 50 clomiphene EOD for two years now (put on by a Urologist that is a fertility specialists - otherwise…most MD’s don’t have a clue about Clomid).
My total T levels went from around 300 to 780 in less than 1 months. My free T improved dramatically with + FSH, LH. Had the option of say Androgel … but want a sperm count (don’t want kids…great birth control…get on Test…will go to zero) and balls that aren’t raisins.
Anyway, interesting … my eye sight got better…yes better - From a -1.75 to -1.5 (according to my eye MD…think there is some correlation between eye sight changes and certain hormones).
I would say that clomid is a nice alternative answer for a male that has secondary hypogonadism, serious endurance athlete or someone wanting to take their 400-500 total T levels (which suck) to 800-900. Big changes in strength / endurance…yes/no…but for me how many 40+ year olds are walking around with 800 T levels everyday…hardly any.
Feel like I’m in my 20’s…athletically…with so far zero side affects. Plus only a $10 co-pay monthly for generic Watson Clomiphene.[/quote]
Thanks for the testimony. I’m happy to finally see some good posts regarding Clomid. It is good stuff for some people; I’ve just seen only negativity towards it here on the boards lately.
Clomid worked for me for about 3 months or so. Then, due to my much higher testosterone levels (right at the peak of what is considered normal range) I suppose, my estrodiol began to rise rather significantly. The addition of arimidex with the Clomid got me back to high Test levels and average estrogen levels.
Interesting only in wandering why someone got paid to write such a irresponsable and ignorant article for the masses and that it was published on Meso.
[quote]itsthetimman wrote:
While protocols are typically around 100 mg/day for the first couple weeks, improvements in test and T:E have been found with dosages at 25 mg/day:
[/quote]
It’s probably really obvious, but I’ll take a chance and just say it: Clomid is only good for hypogonadism if it is 1st assessed that the testes are functioning properly. The only way to do this is to get a predetermined amount of HCG injected and the corresponding blood tests before and after injection to monitor how much (and if) a rise in Testosterone occurs.
If the rise occurs, then the hypogonadism problem isn’t with the nuts. This is where Clomid could work wonders for this ailment.
I’m a 31yo male and during my last physical my internal medicine Dr. ran a full blood panel, and came back with a testosterone level of 343.
She acknowledged that that wasn’t officially low, but told me nonetheless to go and see a urologist who might want to put me on something. The urogologist prescripted by 25mg Clomid ED, and then he wants me to come back in to access if that needs to be bumped up to 50mg.
I went to the pharmacy, who told me that my local Blue Cross carrier would not cover this for me, as it didn’t allow Clomid to be prescribed to men. The generic cost for a 30x50mg at the pharmacy was $259. The brand name was something like $750 for a month. Absolutey insane.
Anyways, after some venting, I decided to order it from a Canadian pharmacy, at $44 for the same 30x50mg. I will go back in 6 weeks or so for a retest of the testosterone levels and will let you know what, if any, change there is.
Is anyone able to explain how clomid raises Test?
[quote]thmgoodw wrote:
I’m a 31yo male and during my last physical my internal medicine Dr. ran a full blood panel, and came back with a testosterone level of 343.
She acknowledged that that wasn’t officially low, but told me nonetheless to go and see a urologist who might want to put me on something. The urogologist prescripted by 25mg Clomid ED, and then he wants me to come back in to access if that needs to be bumped up to 50mg.
I went to the pharmacy, who told me that my local Blue Cross carrier would not cover this for me, as it didn’t allow Clomid to be prescribed to men. The generic cost for a 30x50mg at the pharmacy was $259. The brand name was something like $750 for a month. Absolutey insane.
Anyways, after some venting, I decided to order it from a Canadian pharmacy, at $44 for the same 30x50mg. I will go back in 6 weeks or so for a retest of the testosterone levels and will let you know what, if any, change there is.
[/quote]
http://chemoneresearch.com/products.php?cat=OA
http://chemoneresearch.com/products.php?cat=MQ
Some guys get emotional on Clomid.
Tamoxifen is an alternative with less sides.
SERMs raise E and E competes for the T receptors and lessens the effects of what T you have. E raises SHBG which reduces free T. Use 1mg of anastrozole per week to keep E under control.
[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
itsthetimman wrote:
While protocols are typically around 100 mg/day for the first couple weeks, improvements in test and T:E have been found with dosages at 25 mg/day:
It’s probably really obvious, but I’ll take a chance and just say it: Clomid is only good for hypogonadism if it is 1st assessed that the testes are functioning properly. The only way to do this is to get a predetermined amount of HCG injected and the corresponding blood tests before and after injection to monitor how much (and if) a rise in Testosterone occurs.
If the rise occurs, then the hypogonadism problem isn’t with the nuts. This is where Clomid could work wonders for this ailment.
[/quote]
But if the nuts are not working clomid will not work. If the pituitary cannot make LH, clomid will not help. But as something to boost a normal or normal older guy it can be ok if they do not get emotional sides from clomid. Tamoxifen might be ok if the clomid has emotional sides. When you use a SERM, E will increase. Using a AI will allow a better FT:E ratio and the lower E will allow for less SHBG which should increase FT compared to without an AI. A SERM + AI should be synergistic. When you get off, taper off the SERM!!! and continue AI for a while after or longer. 1mg/wk of anastrozole should be fine for a situation like this. The higher doses of anastrozole that you see with gear are needed as the AI molecule must compete with the higher number of T molecules at the aromatase sites.
[quote]MichaelOH wrote:
Is anyone able to explain how clomid raises Test?[/quote]
If the testes are working and if the rest of the HPTA is still working more or less, clomid “blinds” the HPTA to the presence of E. As E is a major negative feedback signal that inhibits LH release, when the E cannot be seen, the pituitary releases more LH, which also leads to more T. As there is aromatase in the testes as well as in fat tissue, the testes then also directly release more E. Even though the testes are small, the intratesticular testosterone concentrations are about 100 times higher than in serum. So that high concentration of T fuels T–>E aromatization to a greater degree than one might expect. That also explains why HCG leads to more E as well. And the general serum increase in T leads to more T–>E conversion in fat tissue. So the bottom line is that a SERM does not lower E, but actually leads to higher levels of E. That is why one must taper off of SERMs as the HPTA will see a lot of E if the SERM is stopped suddenly.
All SERMs will work in this fashion. But they have different side effects and different sexual side effects too. Many claim to have better sex with clomid. Presumably not the guys who have clomid getting them crying from the estrogenic sides that some get. SERMs are modified estrogens and will have some E effects on some.
I have recently heard some hype about tongkat ali boosting test levels through the roof. May want to check that out.
[quote]KSman wrote:
MichaelOH wrote:
Is anyone able to explain how clomid raises Test?
If the testes are working and if the rest of the HPTA is still working more or less, clomid “blinds” the HPTA to the presence of E. As E is a major negative feedback signal that inhibits LH release, when the E cannot be seen, the pituitary releases more LH, which also leads to more T.
As there is aromatase in the testes as well as in fat tissue, the testes then also directly release more E. Even though the testes are small, the intratesticular testosterone concentrations are about 100 times higher than in serum. So that high concentration of T fuels T–>E aromatization to a greater degree than one might expect.
That also explains why HCG leads to more E as well. And the general serum increase in T leads to more T–>E conversion in fat tissue. So the bottom line is that a SERM does not lower E, but actually leads to higher levels of E. That is why one must taper off of SERMs as the HPTA will see a lot of E if the SERM is stopped suddenly.
All SERMs will work in this fashion. But they have different side effects and different sexual side effects too. Many claim to have better sex with clomid. Presumably not the guys who have clomid getting them crying from the estrogenic sides that some get. SERMs are modified estrogens and will have some E effects on some.[/quote]
[quote]KSman wrote:
MichaelOH wrote:
Is anyone able to explain how clomid raises Test?
If the testes are working and if the rest of the HPTA is still working more or less, clomid “blinds” the HPTA to the presence of E. As E is a major negative feedback signal that inhibits LH release, when the E cannot be seen, the pituitary releases more LH, which also leads to more T.
As there is aromatase in the testes as well as in fat tissue, the testes then also directly release more E. Even though the testes are small, the intratesticular testosterone concentrations are about 100 times higher than in serum. So that high concentration of T fuels T–>E aromatization to a greater degree than one might expect.
That also explains why HCG leads to more E as well. And the general serum increase in T leads to more T–>E conversion in fat tissue. So the bottom line is that a SERM does not lower E, but actually leads to higher levels of E. That is why one must taper off of SERMs as the HPTA will see a lot of E if the SERM is stopped suddenly.
All SERMs will work in this fashion. But they have different side effects and different sexual side effects too. Many claim to have better sex with clomid. Presumably not the guys who have clomid getting them crying from the estrogenic sides that some get. SERMs are modified estrogens and will have some E effects on some.[/quote]
this means a Serm is a good idea post cycle even if only non-armomatizers are used, not for the increased E which I presume is not present but for encouraging T recovery by reducing E negative feedback.
But I should think the dosage that one would use post cycle after non-aromatizers would need to be less than post cycle after aromatizers since there should be much higher E in the latter case. Thanks KSMan. That is one more piece of the puzzle.
[quote]KSman wrote:
thmgoodw wrote:
I’m a 31yo male and during my last physical my internal medicine Dr. ran a full blood panel, and came back with a testosterone level of 343.
She acknowledged that that wasn’t officially low, but told me nonetheless to go and see a urologist who might want to put me on something. The urogologist prescripted by 25mg Clomid ED, and then he wants me to come back in to access if that needs to be bumped up to 50mg.
I went to the pharmacy, who told me that my local Blue Cross carrier would not cover this for me, as it didn’t allow Clomid to be prescribed to men. The generic cost for a 30x50mg at the pharmacy was $259. The brand name was something like $750 for a month. Absolutey insane.
Anyways, after some venting, I decided to order it from a Canadian pharmacy, at $44 for the same 30x50mg. I will go back in 6 weeks or so for a retest of the testosterone levels and will let you know what, if any, change there is.
http://chemoneresearch.com/products.php?cat=OA
http://chemoneresearch.com/products.php?cat=MQ
Some guys get emotional on Clomid.
Tamoxifen is an alternative with less sides.
SERMs raise E and E competes for the T receptors and lessens the effects of what T you have. E raises SHBG which reduces free T. Use 1mg of anastrozole per week to keep E under control.[/quote]
I went to the pubmed article to see what effect SERM therapy had on E levels. They did not report it in the brief abstract. I calculated it from the data that they did provide and there is some ambiguity becuase their own numbers do not match up.
Nevertheless what I got was that Estradiol increased by around 10, from 32 to 42. I think the next step would be to take KSMans advice and do it again with an AI.
Can anyone post any links to studies of SERM safety in men long term?
[quote]KSman wrote:
thmgoodw wrote:
I’m a 31yo male and during my last physical my internal medicine Dr. ran a full blood panel, and came back with a testosterone level of 343.
She acknowledged that that wasn’t officially low, but told me nonetheless to go and see a urologist who might want to put me on something. The urogologist prescripted by 25mg Clomid ED, and then he wants me to come back in to access if that needs to be bumped up to 50mg.
I went to the pharmacy, who told me that my local Blue Cross carrier would not cover this for me, as it didn’t allow Clomid to be prescribed to men. The generic cost for a 30x50mg at the pharmacy was $259. The brand name was something like $750 for a month. Absolutey insane.
Anyways, after some venting, I decided to order it from a Canadian pharmacy, at $44 for the same 30x50mg. I will go back in 6 weeks or so for a retest of the testosterone levels and will let you know what, if any, change there is.
http://chemoneresearch.com/products.php?cat=OA
http://chemoneresearch.com/products.php?cat=MQ
Some guys get emotional on Clomid.
Tamoxifen is an alternative with less sides.
SERMs raise E and E competes for the T receptors and lessens the effects of what T you have. E raises SHBG which reduces free T. Use 1mg of anastrozole per week to keep E under control.[/quote]
I think SERMS do not raise E directly; they raise T which can convert to E via aromatase. Use of an AI will help with this conversion.
Clomid can definitely be a help to those folks who need to raise their LH and FSH. Taking T directly will circumnavigate the testes and will eventually cause testicular atrophy. For those who testes are fine but whose hypothalamus/pituitary doesn’t work like it should, clomid or novaldex (which are SERMS) helps tremendously.