My daughter born in april this year is going on a trip to China in october. Even if there is a risk vith vaccination, in this case I think the risk is higher without.
[quote]espenl wrote:
My daughter born in april this year is going on a trip to China in october. Even if there is a risk vith vaccination, in this case I think the risk is higher without.[/quote]
Totally agree with you. I’d give my kids every vaccination I could find if I were in your shoes.
I know plenty of hippy types (many in my own family) that think vaccines are the devil but oddly enough they all vaccinate their dogs…
[quote]kappa927 wrote:
I know plenty of hippy types (many in my own family) that think vaccines are the devil but oddly enough they all vaccinate their dogs…[/quote]
Except that rabies vaccine is mandatory by law. If you send your dog to day care, board it, or have it professionally groomed, these places may require the other vaccinations such as kennel cough. So while you can keep a dog on your own “off the grid” with zero vaccines, if you plan on taking it to a vet you will have problems.
It does help to highlight the difference in what we are talking about and why many of us are very adamantly against mandatory vaccines.
[quote]kamui wrote:
[quote]koffea wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
I will never understand how people think the government trying to stop a widespread transmission of disease is some egregious violation of our personal liberties. [/quote]
the point is that vaccination doesnt “stop a widespreadtansmission of disease”.
It only forces a biological specie to mute and evolve. But bacteria and viruses usually evolve faster than our knowledge and our technology.
So it’s a short-term solution that will inevitably cause long-term problems and a vicious circle.
Another thing our grand-children will have to solve.
[/quote]
rubella, measles, small pox, polio, pertussis, etc; we have not had any real major issues with these diseases since we started immunizations for each one. These were pretty bad diseases to get and today the only issues we have with them are with pockets of people that refuse to immunize their kids.
My major issue with parents not immunizing their kids is that their kids can end up giving these diseases to my un-immunized new born. other than that, I have no issue at all.
we had a pertussis out break at my daughters school (major hippy school - my immunized kid is a minority) when my newborn was about 2 weeks old. this could have killed him had my daughter or one of her friends brought it home. [/quote]
All of this is still “short-term”, in an evolutionary / demographical perspective.
In most of these cases, the biological species that cause the diseas are not extinct. They can still mute and evolve, and since we are applying a strong pressure on them, they will definetely do it.
But then we will have forgotten how to cure some of these diseases because we will be used to think that vaccination protect us.
Granted, “we” = our great grand children here. And we usually don’t care.
Human population is increasing in numbers, density and mobility. And decreasing in biological diversity.
More then ever before.
Quicker than ever before.
The fact is that no one knows how viral populations will react to this new situation.
But if i was a virus or a bacteria with a plan for world-conquest, i think i would love international airports and emerging countries.
Word-wide pandemics of vaccine- and antibiotic-resistant diseases would be fun.
[/quote]
This is all mostly true (I take exception that we will forget how to cure diseases we once knew how to cure or that we have no idea how viruses react and travel in today’s world), but non of it negates the need for vaccinations. Mutation could happen next year or in 1000 years. Thats the nature of mutations, they are inevitable given enough time, but entirely unpredictable as to when they will happen. Even if we only get another 50 years out of these vaccinations it will be worth it in the number of lives that are saved. Also, it is likely that the next generation of medical technology will eventually negate the need for vaccinations all together.
Their is an argument that can be made that states that an un-vaccinated population is more susceptible to mutation due to the opportunities for mutation, then in vaccinated population. We are all better off when people choose to vaccinate.
There is also a counter argument to that position and plenty of examples of vaccinated populations mutating the virus. Like the overuse of antibiotics forcing us to come to a realization years down the road that perhaps we didnt understand the nature of antibiotics as well as we thought.
[quote]kappa927 wrote:
I know plenty of hippy types (many in my own family) that think vaccines are the devil but oddly enough they all vaccinate their dogs…[/quote]
Dogs don’t generally live with the same standard of hygiene as most humans (they eat turds for crying out loud). So, the benefit likely outweighs the risk. Similar to the poster above who is taking his daughter to China; the benefits outweigh the risks in that situation as well.
[quote]storey420 wrote:
There is also a counter argument to that position and plenty of examples of vaccinated populations mutating the virus. Like the overuse of antibiotics forcing us to come to a realization years down the road that perhaps we didnt understand the nature of antibiotics as well as we thought.[/quote]
what vaccinated populations and diseases are you referring too?
RNA viruses are always going to be susceptible to high mutation rates. that’s why we dont have a good influenza vaccine. but the influenza vaccine itself does not cause higher mutation rates. the virus has to exist in a host to mutate. when you have a high level of vaccinations, there are simply less hosts for the virus to mutate in. influenza outbreaks tend to happen in low vaccination areas that are densely populated and then spread from there. Not the other way around.
DNA viruses like smallpox and company dont mutate that fast due to the inherent replication checking mechanisms; making the vaccines extremely effective. there is the example previously brought up of polio, which is sad, but hardly a rule for blanket statements.
also, vaccines and antibiotics are completely different animals. Antibiotics are a one shot static proposition. Vaccines give us a tool that will help us adapt to and respond to threats as they mutate.
[quote]koffea wrote:
what vaccinated populations and diseases are you referring too?
[/quote]
These would be some:
(Headline): Whooping cough strain now immune to vaccine
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/whooping-cough-strain-now-imm…
(Excerpt): The bacteria that causes whooping cough has mutated, eroding the protection provided by the vaccine now given to children, scientists warned yesterday. Our findings suggest that the use of the acellular vaccine may be one factor contributing to these genetic changes."
(Headline): Live virus used in polio vaccine can evolve and infect, warns TAU researcher
http://www.news-medical.net/news/20111108/Live-virus-used-in-polio-…
(Excerpts): When the live-virus version of the vaccine, called Oral Polio Vaccine (OPV) evolves, he says, it can act like wild poliovirus and continue the threat of contagion. Over time, the vaccine can mutate, and even a 1 percent genomic change in the virus permits the virus to behave like a wild poliovirus. As a result, they are finding evidence of vaccine-derived polio cases in humans.
Vaccine-induced escape mutant of hepatitis B virus.
Abstract
In southern Italy, 44 contacts of hepatitis B virus carriers, including infants of carrier mothers, became HBsAg positive despite passive and active immunisation according to standard protocols. In 32 of these vaccinees infection was confirmed by the presence of additional markers of viral replication. In 1 infant, serious disease occurred. The virus from this patient is an escape mutant with a different sequence from that of the isolate from the mother.
Selection of Hepatitis B Virus (HBV) Vaccine Escape Mutants in HBV-Infected and HBV/HIV-Coinfected Patients Failing Antiretroviral Drugs With Anti-HBV Activity
http://journals.lww.com/jaids/Fulltext/2007/11010/Selection_of_Hepa…
Vaccine/HBIg-escape mutations sP120T and sG145R, in combination with 3TC-resistance-associated mutations, are often seen in HBV-monoinfected patients following 3TC or HBIg treatment and have been shown to increase viral replication in vitro in the presence of 3TC therapy.
The circulation of HBV encoding envelope mutations selected by antiviral agents requires further investigation to determine whether they may be transmitted and therefore represent a public health concern. This issue may be of particular relevance in populations where genotype A is predominant.
A new hepatitis B virus vaccine escape mutation in a renal transplant recipient.
http://www.mendeley.com/research/new-hepatitis-b-virus-vaccine-esca…
Pneumonia, meningitis evolving to evade vaccines
vaccinenewsdaily.com…
â??(Excerpts): “…these life-threatening pathogens are capable of evolving rapidly and developing genetic decoys that serve to disguise them from even the most powerful drugs…Bowden found that the pathogen switched genetic material with other bacteria, but predominantly for the part of the genome responsible for making the cell coating, which is the area targeted by the vaccine.”
Acellular pertussis vaccination enhances B. parapertussis colonization
Center for Infectious Disease Dynamics | The Huck Institutes (en-US)…
…vaccination led to a 40-fold enhancement of B. parapertussis colonization in the lungs of mice…these data suggest that the vaccine may be contributing to the observed rise in whooping cough incidence over the last decade by promoting B. parapertussis infection.
An acellular whooping cough vaccine actually enhances the colonization of Bordetella parapertussis in mice; pointing towards a rise in B. parapertussis incidence resulting from acellular vaccination, which may have contributed to the observed increase in whooping cough over the last decade.
Despite widespread vaccination, whooping cough incidence is on the rise worldwide, making it the only vaccine-preventable disease associated with increasing deaths in the United States. Although this disease is most often attributed to Bordetella pertussis infection, it is also caused by the closely related pathogen, B. parapertussis. However, B. pertussis has remained the center of attention, whereas B. parapertussis has been greatly overlooked in the development of whooping cough vaccines.
.
Shot may be inadvertently boosting superbugs - -
Strains tied to kidsâ?? ear infections flourish as vaccine fights common germs
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20825107/ns/health-childrens_health/t/s…
updated 9/17/2007
CHICAGO â?? A vaccine that has dramatically curbed pneumonia and other serious illnesses in children is having an unfortunate effect: promoting new superbugs that cause ear infections.
University of Iowa researchers found 19A accounted for 35 percent of penicillin-resistant infections in 2004-05, compared with less than 2 percent the year before the new vaccine came out.
[quote]DNA viruses like smallpox and company dont mutate that fast due to the inherent replication checking mechanisms; making the vaccines extremely effective. there is the example previously brought up of polio, which is sad, but hardly a rule for blanket statements.
also, vaccines and antibiotics are completely different animals. Antibiotics are a one shot static proposition. Vaccines give us a tool that will help us adapt to and respond to threats as they mutate.[/quote]
The two are quite different in function and design, I agree. My point was more to the now current understanding that we didnt know enough when they went into full scale use and we are just now beginning to understand that through our good intentioned actions, we have actually created some “monsters”
I disagree that we have created monsters- a lot of those links did not work and were redundant, but of polio, pertussis, hepatitis, and pneumonia: none of these variants are deadlier than the variants we get immune to through vaccinations. we have enjoyed decades without fear of these diseases which is a first in human history. whats odd is that we dont expect these infections now, so when the threat of normalization back to pre vaccination levels happens, its a scary thing to contemplate.
for example:
spanish influenza killed between 20 and 40 million for sure. Some estimates put it as high as 100 million. About 1/2 a billion people were in infected. pandemics like this were normal and occurred a couple times in a lifetime. recent generations cant even fathom what this would be like.
[quote]koffea wrote:
I disagree that we have created monsters- a lot of those links did not work and were redundant, but of polio, pertussis, hepatitis, and pneumonia: none of these variants are deadlier than the variants we get immune to through vaccinations. we have enjoyed decades without fear of these diseases which is a first in human history. whats odd is that we dont expect these infections now, so when the threat of normalization back to pre vaccination levels happens, its a scary thing to contemplate.
for example:
spanish influenza killed between 20 and 40 million for sure. Some estimates put it as high as 100 million. About 1/2 a billion people were in infected. pandemics like this were normal and occurred a couple times in a lifetime. recent generations cant even fathom what this would be like.[/quote]
we have indeed created monsters in bacteria, MRSA, and “superbugs” through our overuse of antibiotics and even over the counter antibacterial soaps, etc.
I agree that we don’t know for sure any “monsters” we have inadvertently created in the virus realm.
Spanish flu is an interesting example as there was no real effective vaccine program that eradicated, we evolved and it faded out (of course lots of folks died in the process. Even with the massive numbers dead from that particular pandemic, somewhere close to 80% that contracted it had 3-5 day illness and recovered (according to epidemiological info Ive read) and there are even theories (of course no iron clad proof) that vaccines could have indeed contributed to the outbreak.
Recent generations should be able to fathom, unless they have forgotten already the 1968 Hong Kong pandemic or the 2005-06 avian flu ones.
Like the bubonic plague, we seem to have somehow eradicated that one without the use of vaccines. Unfortunately nature has a way of auto-correcting our populations issues. Eradicate polio and another will emerge (Lyme’s? Morgellon’s? etc.)
By no means does this mean or am I saying we should just sit back passively and let these scourges happen. I’m just saying that I don’t believe there is a vaccine to fix everything and even vaccine supporters would kind of have to agree with that statement I’d imagine.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Fuck me, are people still beating the there’s no such thing a vaccine injured children horse?
We get it, you hate your kids.[/quote]
fixed
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Fuck me, are people still beating the there’s no such thing a vaccine injured children horse?
We get it, you hate your kids.[/quote]
fixed[/quote]
Not fixed very well.
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]kappa927 wrote:
I know plenty of hippy types (many in my own family) that think vaccines are the devil but oddly enough they all vaccinate their dogs…[/quote]
Except that rabies vaccine is mandatory by law. If you send your dog to day care, board it, or have it professionally groomed, these places may require the other vaccinations such as kennel cough. So while you can keep a dog on your own “off the grid” with zero vaccines, if you plan on taking it to a vet you will have problems.
It does help to highlight the difference in what we are talking about and why many of us are very adamantly against mandatory vaccines.[/quote]
This is such a pain in the ass. We don’t “keep our dogs up to date”… Not even on the rabies, but we can’t board them b/c of this… even though the vaccine has been shown to protect 5-7 yrs and sometimes for life.
I got our last dog up to date on the rabies (2nd one ever), 6 weeks later she had lymphoma, can’t say it was the vaccine as I also started her on heart worm meds for the first time since she was a pup, along with a poor diet first few years. Makes you wonder though. Rabies, really are we really at an epidemic of rabies in this country, yeesh
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Rabies, really are we really at an epidemic of rabies in this country, yeesh[/quote]
I had a rabbit that was rabid in my back yard last summer. Had to get my pup his boster, it was standing around where his run is.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Rabies, really are we really at an epidemic of rabies in this country, yeesh[/quote]
I had a rabbit that was rabid in my back yard last summer. Had to get my pup his boster, it was standing around where his run is.[/quote]
rabid rabbit, rascally varments… how could you tell, just curious, foaming?
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Makes you wonder though. Rabies, really are we really at an epidemic of rabies in this country, yeesh[/quote]
May as well stop vaccinating for Polio and Smallpox, no one gets those anymore.
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Rabies, really are we really at an epidemic of rabies in this country, yeesh[/quote]
I had a rabbit that was rabid in my back yard last summer. Had to get my pup his boster, it was standing around where his run is.[/quote]
rabid rabbit, rascally varments… how could you tell, just curious, foaming?[/quote]
Foam, mangy, didn’t run from me, I had to run from that fucker.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
It does become a bit harder for someone, who has already had all of his childhood shots, mind you, to take some ostentatious stand against vaccinations once he’s had a child of his own and actually had to put his money where his mouth is. [/quote]
I believe it should be a persons choice whether they get vaccinated, just like many decisions.
I can only speak for what I work with, I would not feel confident speaking on something I have no hands on experience with.
Are there harmful chemicals in the shots, no more then a 1/100th of a can of tuna and scoop of protein. People make a huge deal over some of this stuff but forget the actual amount being introduced.
I also find it funny that we are seeing outbreaks of easily avoidable diseases in areas where non vaccination is big. That and the fact that there are people on here that will take a vial of something from some non regulated pharmacy in china or from some random guys gym bag and jam it in their butt in the name of hypertrophy or leaning out, but vaccines oohh the devil’s serum.
A vaccine is just a primer for your natural immune system, to ensure it can do it’s job effectively.
I am a principled person and would leave my company if I felt otherwise based on the data I see.
But I do see a lot of modern medicine making our people and our gene pool weaker, by allowing people who would have not been afforded the chance to procreate to, and our society rewarding negative behaviors. But that is my opinion.
I am also the type of person who let’s his kids be around sick people, doesn’t overly clean, and tries to make sure they come in contact with various agents naturally to make sure they immune system is constantly challenged. I also try to ensure good nutrition and supplementation so their systems can function properly.
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
DD,
Vaccines saved millions of lives, refusing a vaccine for your child is failed parenting and a public health risk, look at the Spanish Flu pandemic from 1918-1920, over those two years it is estimated that between 50,000,000 and 100,000,000 people worldwide died from the flu, the census showed 1.8 billion people in 1918, that is the equivalent of a flu outbreak killing 200,000,000 plus today.
This is just one illness, look at polio, smallpox, measles mumps, rubella etc. The reason to make people take the vaccines is because it keeps us all safe (safer anyway). [/quote]
I see it as natural selection, so long as you are protected, what they chose to do or not do with their health is their choice. Not like it would hurt the gene pool for them to exit it.