USA: Why So Much (Gun) Violence?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]lixy wrote:
I don’t think so. I’d say they are disgruntled because to get quality, you need to go to a private hospital/school/etc…
[/quote]

No, many of the top schools in the US are public schools. The issue here is location. Any School that is supported by active parents who take a strong interest in their kids and the school will tend to be a top school.

As for hospitals this is irrelevant. In the US any hospital, private or not, must treat any patient that shows up in the ED. They must treat and stabilize the patient and only then can they think/try to transfer them to another hospital.

So it is a myth, perpetuated by the entitlement left, that hospitals turn away people who cannot pay or who don’t have health insurance. The Emergency Medical Treatment And Active Labor Act (EMTLA) prevents this from occurring.

The only "gap"in terms of healthcare from those who work and have insurance to those who don’t is routine care, like doctors visits and preventative care.

But I doubt that is really an issue as even people with insurance tend to use the ED for healthcare instead of their doctor because they can just walk in and don’t need an appointment.

But you raise a good point; are people entitled (just because they are here) to the same level of food, education, healthcare, clothing, cars, etc. that someone else who works could afford?

I believe that people on welfare believe they are entitled to a nice car, the best sneakers, etc even though they haven’t worked a day in their life. It is this misguided notion that causes anger and violence when their every want is not fulfilled by the welfare system.

[quote]
And what exactly do you base this not believing “these program are used for vote manipulation in other countries as much as they have been in the US” on? A hunch?[/quote]

I have nothing to base in on for other countries, just the US. It is used extensively in the US. At every single election some politician is pandering to the workless class telling them that they deserve all this stuff and if they are elected they will give it to them. Since this is so freakin pathetic I just assumed that other countries would be a little more reasonable and measured in their approach.

102

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Good post. Many “victims” of gun violence are not victims at all. They are predators and their prey has fought back.[/quote]

Hmm, this raises an interesting counter question.

Are they predators because they have been given courage by the fact that they carry a gun?

I don’t expect anyone can really answer this, but it is certainly a large “opportunity” situation.

103

[quote]vroom wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Good post. Many “victims” of gun violence are not victims at all. They are predators and their prey has fought back.

Hmm, this raises an interesting counter question.

Are they predators because they have been given courage by the fact that they carry a gun?

I don’t expect anyone can really answer this, but it is certainly a large “opportunity” situation.[/quote]

Both.

104

[quote]vroom wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Good post. Many “victims” of gun violence are not victims at all. They are predators and their prey has fought back.

Hmm, this raises an interesting counter question.

Are they predators because they have been given courage by the fact that they carry a gun?

I don’t expect anyone can really answer this, but it is certainly a large “opportunity” situation.[/quote]

The main point of my post is to look at that site it has a lot of interesting information, and as for what zap and vroom are talking about- most murders are related to illegal drug trade. Most murder victims are killed by/for drug dealers for some reason or another that probably has to do with their involvement in the distribution of narcotics. Anyways at least observe the graph on page 55 and read the related information.

105

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Good post. Many “victims” of gun violence are not victims at all. They are predators and their prey has fought back.[/quote]

Excellent point.

106

[quote]vroom wrote:

Are they predators because they have been given courage by the fact that they carry a gun?

I don’t expect anyone can really answer this, but it is certainly a large “opportunity” situation.[/quote]

They are predators because they usually have a drug habit they need to feed and don’t expect any retaliatory response from their victim. Certainly, it’s an opportunistic situation. Predators are cowards. If they had to choose between assaulting Amsterdam Animal, Prof.X or my aunt Beatrice, guess who’s getting mugged? Now, give aunt B a model 21 Glock and the perp’s gonna have a bad day.

107

[quote]TornadoTommy wrote:
They are predators because they usually have a drug habit they need to feed and don’t expect any retaliatory response from their victim. Certainly, it’s an opportunistic situation. Predators are cowards. If they had to choose between assaulting Amsterdam Animal, Prof.X or my aunt Beatrice, guess who’s getting mugged? Now, give aunt B a model 21 Glock and the perp’s gonna have a bad day.[/quote]

Really? I mean, I don’t know, but is this the officially recognized cause of the majority of violent and/or gun crimes in the US?

Also, while I’m not against the ability of people to bear arms, you do have to recognize that if the bad guys didn’t have guns, they would have a much harder time being predators.

It’s the flip side to your statement above…

108

[quote]vroom wrote:
TornadoTommy wrote:
They are predators because they usually have a drug habit they need to feed and don’t expect any retaliatory response from their victim. Certainly, it’s an opportunistic situation. Predators are cowards. If they had to choose between assaulting Amsterdam Animal, Prof.X or my aunt Beatrice, guess who’s getting mugged? Now, give aunt B a model 21 Glock and the perp’s gonna have a bad day.

Really? I mean, I don’t know, but is this the officially recognized cause of the majority of violent and/or gun crimes in the US?

Also, while I’m not against the ability of people to bear arms, you do have to recognize that if the bad guys didn’t have guns, they would have a much harder time being predators.

It’s the flip side to your statement above…[/quote]

I can’t say that it’s “officially” recognized, but yes, drugs are a major contributing factor to violent crime. Does it matter if a violent crime is committed with a gun or an automobile?
We agree that if the bad guys were disarmed there would be less crime.

I’m saying this with complete sincerity: if you have any ideas on how to disarm the bad guys while protecting the rights of the common citizen, I’m ready to listen.

109

[quote]TornadoTommy wrote:
I’m saying this with complete sincerity: if you have any ideas on how to disarm the bad guys while protecting the rights of the common citizen, I’m ready to listen.[/quote]

The only idea I had involved licensing and spot checks.

The idea is that law abiding people will carry a gun license when they carry a weapon, but that crooks won’t.

So, while potentially annoying, it seems to be something that differentiates between the law abiding public and the crooks, offering reduction of criminals carrying weapons in public without interfering with the rights of law abiding citizens.

However, I think people get paranoid at the idea of having to be “licensed” to carry a weapon. I don’t see why it shouldn’t be like driving… prove you know how to handle your weapon, get your license.

110

[quote]TornadoTommy wrote:

I’m saying this with complete sincerity: if you have any ideas on how to disarm the bad guys while protecting the rights of the common citizen, I’m ready to listen.[/quote]

Legalize drugs, all of them, and take the money out of the drug production and trade.

Shazaam, nobody needs to rob or steal for drug money, no turf wars, no shoot outs with the police…

Waaaayy too easy I know, nobody would stop a situation that benefits the police, drug barons and politicians that is just one powerful group to many…

111

I think a “War on Guns” would be about as effective as the “War on Drugs.” Not very.

112

[quote]vroom wrote:
However, I think people get paranoid at the idea of having to be “licensed” to carry a weapon. I don’t see why it shouldn’t be like driving… prove you know how to handle your weapon, get your license.
[/quote]

Here is why thinking people fear having to be licensed. The second amendment is in place so the people can be sufficiently armed to overthrow the government should the need arise. If that is the case, then why would the government give out ANY licenses if those guns may be used against it?

Next, the driving analogy is poor. People say that licensing should be as easy as with a car. Well, it sounds good until you get to the minutia of it. Would you allow someone who was a felon to get a gun? They can get a driver’s license? What about a 16 year old? When you start throwing in the restrictions, it quickly doesn’t become as easy as getting a driver’s license.

Besides, once you allow your second amendment right to be licensed, why not have to get a license to write a book that is anti-government? What about paying a fee and passing a check to talk about a political party that isn’t in office? A right that requires a license is no right at all; it is a privilege.

mike

113

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
Here is why thinking people fear having to be licensed. The second amendment is in place so the people can be sufficiently armed to overthrow the government should the need arise. If that is the case, then why would the government give out ANY licenses if those guns may be used against it?

Next, the driving analogy is poor. People say that licensing should be as easy as with a car. Well, it sounds good until you get to the minutia of it. Would you allow someone who was a felon to get a gun? They can get a driver’s license? What about a 16 year old? When you start throwing in the restrictions, it quickly doesn’t become as easy as getting a driver’s license.

Besides, once you allow your second amendment right to be licensed, why not have to get a license to write a book that is anti-government? What about paying a fee and passing a check to talk about a political party that isn’t in office? A right that requires a license is no right at all; it is a privilege.

mike[/quote]

I understand the “why’s” involved.

However, the issue is one that society can decide upon, due to the needs of society.

Anyhow, even in your own analogy, you must realize that almost everyone who wants to drive can get a license and drive. It is a right, assuming you pass the competence test.

There are many things society has decided to live with, in order to try to improve things for the populace. Seatbelts, car seats for children, helmets on motorcycles, no drinking until of age, no drinking and driving, concealed weapons permits and so on.

The government, if perhaps at the State level can choose to implement safety concerns assuming they aren’t a defacto undue limitation of rights.

114

[quote]new2training wrote:
That’s a wonderful point. Let’s hide the fact that if you have a marketable skill in a capitalistic society a high standard of living is possible. [/quote]

Man, you people are sensitive about this issue…

A cohesive society is more likely to be free of violence. People will also tend to be happier and you’d find less drug users in areas with quasi-uniform wealth distributions.

The mentality of people who have money and don’t flash it is extremely rare in the US. In Europe, it’s a different story. Of course, it also depends on whether you’re in a rural area or a metropole, but in general, Europeans are much less likely to boast about their wealth. This should not be overlooked when dealing with comparative violence levels.

115

[quote]orion wrote:
Legalize drugs, all of them, and take the money out of the drug production and trade.

Shazaam, nobody needs to rob or steal for drug money, no turf wars, no shoot outs with the police…

Waaaayy too easy I know, nobody would stop a situation that benefits the police, drug barons and politicians that is just one powerful group to many… [/quote]

Good one, Orion! I definitely agree with you on that.

Care to opiniate on whether correlating drug use and social gap is Ok? I have the feeling we won’t agree on that.

116

[quote]lixy wrote:
orion wrote:
Legalize drugs, all of them, and take the money out of the drug production and trade.

Shazaam, nobody needs to rob or steal for drug money, no turf wars, no shoot outs with the police…

Waaaayy too easy I know, nobody would stop a situation that benefits the police, drug barons and politicians that is just one powerful group to many…

Good one, Orion! I definitely agree with you on that.

Care to opiniate on whether correlating drug use and social gap is Ok? I have the feeling we won’t agree on that.[/quote]

You probably won`t find a correlation, I think poverty only correlate with drug conviction rates.

In part because it is a chance for poor people to live a better life so they are more likely to deal with (lllegal) drugs.

People snorting cocain at a private party do not go to jail, a junkie on the street will.

117

[quote]orion wrote:
People snorting cocain at a private party do not go to jail[/quote]

Oh no? I’m sure many many convicted people will disagree with that.

118

[quote]lixy wrote:
orion wrote:
People snorting cocain at a private party do not go to jail

Oh no? I’m sure many many convicted people will disagree with that.

[/quote]

Noone that I know of.

Who would know, it would be career suicide to testify against them and you social life would be history…

As long as you do not driving DUI, how would anyone know you are doing drugs?

119

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
… A right that requires a license is no right at all; it is a privilege.

mike[/quote]

Well said.

120

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
… A right that requires a license is no right at all; it is a privilege.

mike

Well said.[/quote]

Don’t you people have to register to be able to vote?