[quote]orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…so, why is this an issue? The free market always needs cheap labor to satisfy the consumer’s demands…
Actually it needs productive labor which in no way, shape or form has to be cheap.
[/quote]
…alas, reality refutes your opinion orion…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…so, why is this an issue? The free market always needs cheap labor to satisfy the consumer’s demands…
Actually it needs productive labor which in no way, shape or form has to be cheap.
…alas, reality refutes your opinion orion…
[/quote]
By having produced more high paying jobs than have ever existed in the history of mankind?
And that is not an opinion but an observable and measurable fact and the logical consequence of a process of capital formation.
…bullshit, cheap labor fuels our affluence whether you like it or not. Especially in the USA, where cheap labor is the backbone of it’s economy, is this most prevalent.
The fact that there are more high paying jobs than ever before in history is merely a testament to the fact that mankind has perfected the ability to abuse the weak for profit…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…bullshit, cheap labor fuels our affluence whether you like it or not. Especially in the USA, where cheap labor is the backbone of it’s economy, is this most prevalent. The fact that there are more high paying jobs than ever before in history is merely a testament to the fact that mankind has perfected the ability to abuse the weak for profit…[/quote]
And yet all those weak, abused and downtrodden live a life of relative leisure and comfort that was unthinkable, even for their parents and grandparents and that is not only true for Mexicans but also hundreds of millions of Indians and Chinese.
In case you did not notice, they risk their lives running towards those jobs, not away from them.
…so what? That does not change the fact that they are providing cheap labor that benefit our lifestyles. Look, people will always look for the best, read cheapest, deal…
…for instance, europe has been overrun by polish workers for years now. They work cheap and work hard, but guess what, in Poland Georgians do the work the poles won’t do because they earn more abroad than at home…
…however you want to spin this, and i do feel you just like to antagonise for the sake of discussion, the West relies on cheap labor…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…so what? That does not change the fact that they are providing cheap labor that benefit our lifestyles. Look, people will always look for the best, read cheapest, deal…
…for instance, europe has been overrun by polish workers for years now. They work cheap and work hard, but guess what, in Poland Georgians do the work the poles won’t do because they earn more abroad than at home…
…however you want to spin this, and i do feel you just like to antagonise for the sake of discussion, the West relies on cheap labor…[/quote]
I simply question your view of reality and that you want to uphold it even though it flies in the face of facts and logic.
Again, free markets do not need “cheap” labor they need profitable and that means “productive” labor.
Of course I will going to use cheap lobar if that brings production prices down, but the way capitalism deals with this problem is by accumulating capital, meaning machines and train the workers how to use them.
Then, the cost of the average produced unit drops, but the workers earn more, not less, the entrepreneur earns more, not less, and the consumer pays less, not more.
That is not just a theory but a historical fact that you can clearly see in workers incomes over the last 200 years.
When evil, evil, despicable capitalism wants “cheap” labor, it usually turns to machines, not people.
[quote]orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…so what? That does not change the fact that they are providing cheap labor that benefit our lifestyles. Look, people will always look for the best, read cheapest, deal…
…for instance, europe has been overrun by polish workers for years now. They work cheap and work hard, but guess what, in Poland Georgians do the work the poles won’t do because they earn more abroad than at home…
…however you want to spin this, and i do feel you just like to antagonise for the sake of discussion, the West relies on cheap labor…
I simply question your view of reality and that you want to uphold it even though it flies in the face of facts and logic.
Again, free markets do not need “cheap” labor they need profitable and that means “productive” labor.
Of course I will going to use cheap lobar if that brings production prices down, but the way capitalism deals with this problem is by accumulating capital, meaning machines and train the workers how to use them.
Then, the cost of the average produced unit drops, but the workers earn more, not less, the entrepreneur earns more, not less, and the consumer pays less, not more.
That is not just a theory but a historical fact that you can clearly see in workers incomes over the last 200 years.
When evil, evil, despicable capitalism wants “cheap” labor, it usually turns to machines, not people.[/quote]
…ofcourse mechanisation is part of it, but even then labor cost determins where a plant is situated. If the cost of labor didn’t matter, why are certain high paying jobs outsourced to India for instance? What about jobs that can’t be mechanized?
Why are the US farmlands populated by mexican daylaborers? Why are south-american sweatshops producing high-end fashion? Why is Wallmart selling Chinese products if their production costs aren’t a fraction of what it would cost to produce those products locally?
…why is it so hard for you to admit that, eventhough we all flourish due to the hard work and suffering of those less fortunate, our affluence is not possible without them?
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
That is exactly why America needs to go to a flat federal sales tax. Then it won’t matter if you are an illegal or not as far as taxes go. The more you buy the more taxes you pay no matter how you got paid.
Plus for anyone that is against big government the IRS could be cut at least in half. You also wouldn’t have to worry about filing in April. [/quote]
Exactly
Edit: Flat tax also helps US industry where companies here are taxed income tax and their products sold in Europe are also taxed with a VAT, raising the price.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…so what? That does not change the fact that they are providing cheap labor that benefit our lifestyles. Look, people will always look for the best, read cheapest, deal…
…for instance, europe has been overrun by polish workers for years now. They work cheap and work hard, but guess what, in Poland Georgians do the work the poles won’t do because they earn more abroad than at home…
…however you want to spin this, and i do feel you just like to antagonise for the sake of discussion, the West relies on cheap labor…
I simply question your view of reality and that you want to uphold it even though it flies in the face of facts and logic.
Again, free markets do not need “cheap” labor they need profitable and that means “productive” labor.
Of course I will going to use cheap lobar if that brings production prices down, but the way capitalism deals with this problem is by accumulating capital, meaning machines and train the workers how to use them.
Then, the cost of the average produced unit drops, but the workers earn more, not less, the entrepreneur earns more, not less, and the consumer pays less, not more.
That is not just a theory but a historical fact that you can clearly see in workers incomes over the last 200 years.
When evil, evil, despicable capitalism wants “cheap” labor, it usually turns to machines, not people.
…ofcourse mechanisation is part of it, but even then labor cost determins where a plant is situated. If the cost of labor didn’t matter, why are certain high paying jobs outsourced to India for instance? What about jobs that can’t be mechanized?
Why are the US farmlands populated by mexican daylaborers? Why are south-american sweatshops producing high-end fashion? Why is Wallmart selling Chinese products if their production costs aren’t a fraction of what it would cost to produce those products locally?
…why is it so hard for you to admit that, eventhough we all flourish due to the hard work and suffering of those less fortunate, our affluence is not possible without them?
[/quote]
I have no problem with admitting that I benefit from “cheap” labor, in soon not to be third world countries even, I do have a problem with the idea that any kind of exploitation is involved when those people are generally better off of being “exploited”.
It is a fair deal, they work, we pay.
I do have a problem with the idea that capitalism or free markets require cheap human labor, the very process of accumulation of capital makes human labor relatively scarce and therefore expensive.
Does capitalism “need” cheap labor? Theoretically no, although we’ll probably never get to test this theory in our lifetimes.
Does capitalism “use” cheap labor? Of course. Costs must be reduced, which includes labor costs. This will lead to, yes, mechanization, but also outsourcing and “insourcing.” This “insourcing” is kinda-sorta what this thread is about, no? The US has a system wherein businessmen want (re: demand) cheap labor and so supply (“damn Mexicans”) meets that demand regardless of laws.
Is capitalism “exploitative.” Not in theory but sometimes in practice. Poor people ARE flooding to these jobs and they simply would not do this if it were not in their interests to do so. Further, influx of FDI (investment) is a boon. However, there are numerous examples of “exploitation” going on… of course. Criminals will alwsys exist…greedy people will subvert laws and morals. This is one of the reasons I believe a strong state is necessary (to project power).
Regardless, Capitalism is amazing. It makes poor people/nations less poor. Look at the asian tigers. Look at China. Look at Vietnam. These countries have and continue to benefit from Capitalism. Is the system “perfect”? Of course not. Should every country become “Capitalist”? Of course. But implementation is key. Look at the way China and Vietnam have SLOWLY made reforms over the years…it was this carefully orchestrated, state-led liberalization that has lead to their success.
Cliffs-notes version:
Capitalism=Good, not perfect
State=Still necessary (must be strong)
(Civil society also necessary, but not really dealt with in this post)
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…so what? That does not change the fact that they are providing cheap labor that benefit our lifestyles. Look, people will always look for the best, read cheapest, deal…
…for instance, europe has been overrun by polish workers for years now. They work cheap and work hard, but guess what, in Poland Georgians do the work the poles won’t do because they earn more abroad than at home…
…however you want to spin this, and i do feel you just like to antagonise for the sake of discussion, the West relies on cheap labor…[/quote]
Your arguments are only surface deep. I don’t think you know what this “cheap labor” costs us in other areas. Not so cheap after all.
Also, why don’t you take a few minutes to consider what the black market for cheap labor does for this country.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…so what? That does not change the fact that they are providing cheap labor that benefit our lifestyles. Look, people will always look for the best, read cheapest, deal…
…for instance, europe has been overrun by polish workers for years now. They work cheap and work hard, but guess what, in Poland Georgians do the work the poles won’t do because they earn more abroad than at home…
…however you want to spin this, and i do feel you just like to antagonise for the sake of discussion, the West relies on cheap labor…
Your arguments are only surface deep. I don’t think you know what this “cheap labor” costs us in other areas. Not so cheap after all.
Also, why don’t you take a few minutes to consider what the black market for cheap labor does for this country.[/quote]
Why don´t you step back even one step further and ask yourself why there is a black market for labor?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…so what? That does not change the fact that they are providing cheap labor that benefit our lifestyles. Look, people will always look for the best, read cheapest, deal…
…for instance, europe has been overrun by polish workers for years now. They work cheap and work hard, but guess what, in Poland Georgians do the work the poles won’t do because they earn more abroad than at home…
…however you want to spin this, and i do feel you just like to antagonise for the sake of discussion, the West relies on cheap labor…
I simply question your view of reality and that you want to uphold it even though it flies in the face of facts and logic.
Again, free markets do not need “cheap” labor they need profitable and that means “productive” labor.
Of course I will going to use cheap lobar if that brings production prices down, but the way capitalism deals with this problem is by accumulating capital, meaning machines and train the workers how to use them.
Then, the cost of the average produced unit drops, but the workers earn more, not less, the entrepreneur earns more, not less, and the consumer pays less, not more.
That is not just a theory but a historical fact that you can clearly see in workers incomes over the last 200 years.
When evil, evil, despicable capitalism wants “cheap” labor, it usually turns to machines, not people.
…ofcourse mechanisation is part of it, but even then labor cost determins where a plant is situated. If the cost of labor didn’t matter, why are certain high paying jobs outsourced to India for instance? What about jobs that can’t be mechanized?
Why are the US farmlands populated by mexican daylaborers? Why are south-american sweatshops producing high-end fashion? Why is Wallmart selling Chinese products if their production costs aren’t a fraction of what it would cost to produce those products locally?
…why is it so hard for you to admit that, eventhough we all flourish due to the hard work and suffering of those less fortunate, our affluence is not possible without them?
[/quote]
The “hard work and suffering” provides them a much better life then they would have without the work. It’s all relative. Just becuase someone has an easier life, it doesn’t make yours any worse. If I win the lottery, quit my job, build a huge addition on my house, hire a full time cook and masseuse, is my neighbor any worse off?
[quote]dhickey wrote:
ephrem wrote:
orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
The “hard work and suffering” provides them a much better life then they would have without the work. It’s all relative. Just becuase someone has an easier life, it doesn’t make yours any worse. If I win the lottery, quit my job, build a huge addition on my house, hire a full time cook and masseuse, is my neighbor any worse off?
[/quote]
Actualy it could improve multiple lives, 1. Your company will hire someone to replace you. 2 A contractor will hire/employ other to help in the construction of your new addition. 3&4 the cook and the masseuse will now have employment or more clients. 5. if your addition is of quality and not obnoxious it will help raise the neighborhood property values!.
[quote]PB-Crawl wrote:
Standard Donkey wrote:
PB-Crawl wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
I think its pathetic that an illegal pregnant woman can have a free child birth at a hospital, while a female citizen has to pay. Thats just a slap in the face.
yea god forbid we live in a country that shows compassion to those in need.
whats really pathetic is so many people take their own luxury for granted.
People get these “luxuries” because they work for them. That statement you made shows just whats wrong with you bleeding heart liberal bumble-fux.
Healthcare is a product not a right or a privilege
oh thats right i forgot, when you were a baby you built the house over your head, you go to school on your own, you bought all of your food. Everything that allowed you to grow up successfully, and be able to afford health care was all on your shoulders, your parents threw you into the woods after birth with nothing.
your statement just shows how much of a stupid cunt you are who cant accept the fact that growing up in a 1st world nation automatically provides you with luxury.
sit down
[/quote]
Get a life, seriously. I take it you have never actually spent much time with illegals. My family has lived here for many generations and have been proud to be citizens here but still carry on our hispanic culture. But i’ve grown up and worked with so many who come to this country illegally just so they get the free lunch and laugh at holier than thou pricks like you cause you fell for the bullshit.
This crap has been going on for decades and nobody is stupid, illegals know what they are doing and they’ll keep doing it as long as it’s allowed. One of my uncles father had lived here illegally for 40 years, didn’t pay a dime for taxes, saved up his money and when it came time for retirement to approach, he had to be a citizen to get the pensions and benefits, so he waited till about a year before retirement became a citizen, retired, collected a pretty good pension while living in mexico for the rest of his life while it was a good one. Had a good laugh about all of it too.
some come for the opportunities for a better life and the last thing they want is to be a burden so they learn english, become citizens and they make honest livings. There is nothing wrong with giving to charity, people do need help, yes I agree, but not when it comes to people trying to milk the system dry. you need to live amongs some of the people you say need help.
In fact, here are a couple of things you can do, why not open your house to these illegals, cook for them, in fact give them your house, your car, everything, give up your girlfriend/boyfriend, and give them all of your salary, cause it’s the right thing to do right?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…so, why is this an issue? The free market always needs cheap labor to satisfy the consumer’s demands…
Actually it needs productive labor which in no way, shape or form has to be cheap.
…alas, reality refutes your opinion orion…
[/quote]
no it doesn’t since the rise of immigration in this country social security is almost gone and our capitalist nation no longer thrives thanks.
they aren’t productive they contribute nothing and give you cheap work.
[quote]PB-Crawl wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Well, they got ALL of the construction jobs during the housing boom.
I’d like to see some evidence backing this statement.
[/quote]
I’ll put it this way. My brother wrote a database-based program for a construction company. The biggest problem he had was that he could not make the social security column a unique column. He had to allow for duplicates because so many “employees” had the same name and social security numbers.
I told him to create a trigger to send an email to the INS every time a duplicate was registered…He chickened out.
[quote]apbt55 wrote:
ephrem wrote:
orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…so, why is this an issue? The free market always needs cheap labor to satisfy the consumer’s demands…
Actually it needs productive labor which in no way, shape or form has to be cheap.
…alas, reality refutes your opinion orion…
no it doesn’t since the rise of immigration in this country social security is almost gone and our capitalist nation no longer thrives thanks.
they aren’t productive they contribute nothing and give you cheap work.[/quote]
…conservatives don’t like social security, or at least, that’s the impression they give. So why is that an issue all of a sudden? Perhaps the reason why your capatalist nation no longer thrives is not the influx of illegal immigrants, but overspending on an unnecessary war and banking-deregulation?
…sounds like he worked the system to his advantage. He did not pay taxes? Sounds liberterian to me. Saved his money? Very conservative of him. Smart guy, that fella (-:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…sounds like he worked the system to his advantage. He did not pay taxes? Sounds liberterian to me. Saved his money? Very conservative of him. Smart guy, that fella (-:
[/quote]
And of course you’re just as supportive of actual citiznes not paying taxes, right?