No, he has a point, whether he means to or not. A lot, if not the majority, of that aid is either military aid (i.e. Boeing, Raytheon, etc.) or civilian buy American only contracts. So it becomes government subsidy to big business at the same time as it serves as foreign aid. Not all that benevolent.
[quote]LBRTRN wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
The US supports Israel because we have a huge contingent of Christian Zionists at the highest leves of government and industry that feel Israel must exist with its original borders for the 2nd coming and the rapture to occur.
This is no secret to evangelicals.
Not only do you misunderstand the evangelical position (the evangelical community isn’t even homogeneous on this point), your overly simplistic explanation is ridiculous. The US has supported Isreal for nealry the last 60 years; that we now have an evangelical president doesn’t explain the policies of past administrations.
[/quote]
It is overly simplistic, but the effect of the evangelical community and the folks who take Revelations literally upon Republican support for Israel is not insignificant.
[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
The US supports Israel because we have a huge contingent of Christian Zionists at the highest leves of government and industry that feel Israel must exist with its original borders for the 2nd coming and the rapture to occur. This is no secret to evangelicals.[/quote]
marmAshamedDem,
Here’s why this strange justthefacts-style idea that you keep bringing up doesn’t pass the laugh test.
Evangelicals like Bill “I’d take up a rifle for Israel” Clinton? Ronald Reagan the non-denominational Christian? We know that JFK was a deeply protestant-type … How about Johnson? There was a fire-breathing evangelical for you, a devout believer. Eisenhower was a Presbyterian, and we all know that Presbyterians are crazies, letting their religion run their foreign policy.
Thank God for this unifying idea. This concept has infiltrated all levels and denominations of Christianity and in particular the evangelical branch. While not strictly mentioned in the Bible, the liturgy, during services, prayer, canonical documents, theological textbooks, or anywhere else really, it is the one piece of policy that all Christians can agree on.
So naturally 60 years of Presidents, including blatantly non-religious fellows like bill clinton, have found this idea so moving that they felt compelled to defend Israel to the hilt.
What “original borders of Israel” are you referring to? The borders of Israel at the time of Christ? So this super-Christian ideal also includes re-instituting the Roman Empire?
I’m glad the catholics / presbyterians / non-denominational / baptists / non-believers were able to come together on this.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
LBRTRN wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
The US supports Israel because we have a huge contingent of Christian Zionists at the highest leves of government and industry that feel Israel must exist with its original borders for the 2nd coming and the rapture to occur.
This is no secret to evangelicals.
Not only do you misunderstand the evangelical position (the evangelical community isn’t even homogeneous on this point), your overly simplistic explanation is ridiculous. The US has supported Isreal for nealry the last 60 years; that we now have an evangelical president doesn’t explain the policies of past administrations.
It is overly simplistic, but the effect of the evangelical community and the folks who take Revelations literally upon Republican support for Israel is not insignificant.[/quote]
Aside from the fact that in agreeing your explanation is overly simplistic you must, by definition, aslo agree that your explantion is unreasonable, the notion that the evangelical community has guided our Mideast policy for the last 60 years–which, whether you recognize it or not, is exactly what you are arguing–is spurious.
As someone else has already pointed out, past adminsistrations, with no ties to the evangelical community, have delt with Isreal in much the same way as the present administration. How do you explain such continuity in policy?
[quote]LBRTRN wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
LBRTRN wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
The US supports Israel because we have a huge contingent of Christian Zionists at the highest leves of government and industry that feel Israel must exist with its original borders for the 2nd coming and the rapture to occur.
This is no secret to evangelicals.
Not only do you misunderstand the evangelical position (the evangelical community isn’t even homogeneous on this point), your overly simplistic explanation is ridiculous. The US has supported Isreal for nealry the last 60 years; that we now have an evangelical president doesn’t explain the policies of past administrations.
It is overly simplistic, but the effect of the evangelical community and the folks who take Revelations literally upon Republican support for Israel is not insignificant.
Aside from the fact that in agreeing your explanation is overly simplistic you must, by definition, aslo agree that your explantion is unreasonable, the notion that the evangelical community has guided our Mideast policy for the last 60 years–which, whether you recognize it or not, is exactly what you are arguing–is spurious.
As someone else has already pointed out, past adminsistrations, with no ties to the evangelical community, have delt with Isreal in much the same way as the present administration. How do you explain such continuity in policy?
[/quote]
I said nothing about the past 60 years, this is obviously a recent phenomenon. The U.S. government has supported Israel from day one, yes, but I think the kind of foolishness Bush demonstrated re: the recent offensive into Lebanon is new, certainly a far cry from the far more cautious foreign policy of his father, for example. There’s a difference between being pro-Israel and giving up even the pretense of being an honest broker for peace in the region.
[quote]Gregus wrote:
harris447 wrote:
Gregus wrote:
That I’m an anti-semitic moron pothead?
Oh, no, wait: that’s you.
Oh boy. So if I’m a moron and a pothead as you put it then so be it. I am what i am and i embrace it. Thank you. Still better then being you.[/quote]
Hey Gregus, you forgot to mention the anti-semitic part, i also agree with the moron discription, what's the matter did some awfull Jews round up your family and put them in a gas chamber?
This will be my first and final post to a shitbag like you, btw i would rather be Harris any day of the week than you.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
LBRTRN wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
LBRTRN wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
The US supports Israel because we have a huge contingent of Christian Zionists at the highest leves of government and industry that feel Israel must exist with its original borders for the 2nd coming and the rapture to occur.
This is no secret to evangelicals.
Not only do you misunderstand the evangelical position (the evangelical community isn’t even homogeneous on this point), your overly simplistic explanation is ridiculous. The US has supported Isreal for nealry the last 60 years; that we now have an evangelical president doesn’t explain the policies of past administrations.
It is overly simplistic, but the effect of the evangelical community and the folks who take Revelations literally upon Republican support for Israel is not insignificant.
Aside from the fact that in agreeing your explanation is overly simplistic you must, by definition, aslo agree that your explantion is unreasonable, the notion that the evangelical community has guided our Mideast policy for the last 60 years–which, whether you recognize it or not, is exactly what you are arguing–is spurious.
As someone else has already pointed out, past adminsistrations, with no ties to the evangelical community, have delt with Isreal in much the same way as the present administration. How do you explain such continuity in policy?
I said nothing about the past 60 years, this is obviously a recent phenomenon.[/quote]
To be fair, I didn’t realise until now that it was you, and not Marmadogg, to whom I had responded. But my overall point still stands: the position of the U.S. towards Isreal has not changed in the last 60 years.
[quote] The U.S. government has supported Israel from day one, yes, but I think the kind of foolishness Bush demonstrated re: the recent offensive into Lebanon[/quote]…stop right there.
How is the recent offensive into Lebanon representative of Bush’s foolishness? Bush is foolish, in that we agree, but he didn’t order Israel into Lebanon, he may not have stopped them, but neither did the U.S. stop Israel from invading Lebenon in '78, and then again in '82.
Because we are speaking about the relationship between the US and Isreal, I am going to assume that by “foreign policy” you mean the US’s policy towards Isreal. Given that, nothing of consequence happened between Israel and it neighbors from '88 to '92; for that reason, your comparison is invalid. How do you think H.W. Bush would have reacted had this same situation occured durring his tenure? There simply isn’t any way of making that comparison because the first Bush never faced a comparable situation.
It is true that Bush opposed Jewish settlements in occupied land, but that was also the stated policy of the Reagan and Clinton administrations, and, more importantly, it is the current policy today.
This is an honest question: are you comming to the above conclusion because of your dislike of Bush, or do you actually have concrete reasons? Yes, Bush leaves a lot to be desired (an understatement, I know), but in what specific ways is his policy towards Isreal different from that of past administrations?
[quote]LBRTRN wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
The US supports Israel because we have a huge contingent of Christian Zionists at the highest leves of government and industry that feel Israel must exist with its original borders for the 2nd coming and the rapture to occur.
This is no secret to evangelicals.
Not only do you misunderstand the evangelical position (the evangelical community isn’t even homogeneous on this point),[/quote]
You are obviously evangelical and defensive.
I can’t help you with that
Sometimes the simplist explanation is the truth. Just because you don’t like the truth does not change it.
The US support has nothing to do with our President. Presidents have changed many times in the past 60 years but the US has always been the biggest supporter of Israel. Past Presidents (Nixon) may have been anti-semites but they needed the powerful evangelical and jewish lobbies on their side.
The jewish lobby would lose their teeth without the evangelicals support.
[quote]LBRTRN wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
LBRTRN wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
The US supports Israel because we have a huge contingent of Christian Zionists at the highest leves of government and industry that feel Israel must exist with its original borders for the 2nd coming and the rapture to occur.
This is no secret to evangelicals.
Not only do you misunderstand the evangelical position (the evangelical community isn’t even homogeneous on this point), your overly simplistic explanation is ridiculous. The US has supported Isreal for nealry the last 60 years; that we now have an evangelical president doesn’t explain the policies of past administrations.
It is overly simplistic, but the effect of the evangelical community and the folks who take Revelations literally upon Republican support for Israel is not insignificant.
Aside from the fact that in agreeing your explanation is overly simplistic you must, by definition, aslo agree that your explantion is unreasonable, the notion that the evangelical community has guided our Mideast policy for the last 60 years–which, whether you recognize it or not, is exactly what you are arguing–is spurious.
As someone else has already pointed out, past adminsistrations, with no ties to the evangelical community, have delt with Isreal in much the same way as the present administration. How do you explain such continuity in policy?
[/quote]
This has nothing to do with the Presidents religous affiliation but either you can’t comprehend that or you don’t want to.
i.e. You either don’t know what you are talking about or you are intellectually dishonest.
Both you and ChuckyT are trying to argue the same non point which speaks volumes about you.
[quote]LBRTRN wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
LBRTRN wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
LBRTRN wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
The US supports Israel because we have a huge contingent of Christian Zionists at the highest leves of government and industry that feel Israel must exist with its original borders for the 2nd coming and the rapture to occur.
This is no secret to evangelicals.
Not only do you misunderstand the evangelical position (the evangelical community isn’t even homogeneous on this point), your overly simplistic explanation is ridiculous. The US has supported Isreal for nealry the last 60 years; that we now have an evangelical president doesn’t explain the policies of past administrations.
It is overly simplistic, but the effect of the evangelical community and the folks who take Revelations literally upon Republican support for Israel is not insignificant.
Aside from the fact that in agreeing your explanation is overly simplistic you must, by definition, aslo agree that your explantion is unreasonable, the notion that the evangelical community has guided our Mideast policy for the last 60 years–which, whether you recognize it or not, is exactly what you are arguing–is spurious.
As someone else has already pointed out, past adminsistrations, with no ties to the evangelical community, have delt with Isreal in much the same way as the present administration. How do you explain such continuity in policy?
I said nothing about the past 60 years, this is obviously a recent phenomenon.
To be fair, I didn’t realise until now that it was you, and not Marmadogg, to whom I had responded. But my overall point still stands: the position of the U.S. towards Isreal has not changed in the last 60 years.
The U.S. government has supported Israel from day one, yes, but I think the kind of foolishness Bush demonstrated re: the recent offensive into Lebanon…stop right there.
How is the recent offensive into Lebanon representative of Bush’s foolishness? Bush is foolish, in that we agree, but he didn’t order Israel into Lebanon, he may not have stopped them, but neither did the U.S. stop Israel from invading Lebenon in '78, and then again in '82.
[/quote]
The Lebanon offensive was a debacle, anyone can see that, and most sober people could see that beforehand. The U.S. may or may not have been able to stop Israel, but we didn’t even try, and indeed basically encouraged them while sending them more missiles in the midst of the fight. And the regional and global situation now is a far cry from 1982 obviously.
Fair point. But do you think sober-headed realists like Bush Sr., Powell, Scowcroft, or a 1990 Cheney would be cheerleading for Israel as it ruined what progress we had made in Lebanon, let alone the militarily idiotic idea that you can beat guerrilla force with airpower?
[quote]
It is true that Bush opposed Jewish settlements in occupied land, but that was also the stated policy of the Reagan and Clinton administrations, and, more importantly, it is the current policy today.
There’s a difference between being pro-Israel and giving up even the pretense of being an honest broker for peace in the region.
This is an honest question: are you comming to the above conclusion because of your dislike of Bush, or do you actually have concrete reasons? Yes, Bush leaves a lot to be desired (an understatement, I know), but in what specific ways is his policy towards Isreal different from that of past administrations? [/quote]
The latter. I think America is closer to Israel than it has ever been, to the detriment of both our national security and our role as a world leader, but the damage Bush has done there is minor compared to everything else that has happened under his watch.