Julian Borger in Washington
Wednesday December 6, 2006
The Guardian
The man picked by President Bush to run the Pentagon admitted yesterday that the US was not winning the war in Iraq and warned that an attack on Iran could backfire with devastating consequences.[…]
US ‘not winning conflict in Iraq’
US Defence Secretary nominee Robert Gates has told a Senate committee that the US is not winning the war in Iraq.
Mr Gates told a confirmation hearing he was open to new ideas on Iraq, but warned the situation there would shape the Middle East for years to come. […]
Iraq panel demands urgent change
A major report on US policy in Iraq has called for a new approach and urgent action to stop “a slide towards chaos”.
The current US strategy of staying the course was no longer viable, Iraq Study Group leader James Baker said. […]
Well, what can I say except “duh”? I’m positively surprised and relieved that the new US Defense Secretary seems to have a better grasp on the situation than the old one - and the neocons who brought the US into that mess.
I’m just very sorry for all the civilians and soldiers who lost their lives during that learning process, and I hope that a policy change will help alleviate the suffering.
I’m just very sorry for all the civilians and soldiers who lost their lives during that learning process, and I hope that a policy change will help alleviate the suffering.
Makkun[/quote]
Or another attack on the U.S to gain public approval for more war!
Lets see what all the “stay the course”, “we won that already!” and the “We’re winning” people say now.
I hope they have the sense to admit they were terribly uninformed.
Seriously, Gates just said what all us rational people KNEW.
Oh, and he also affirmed that Osama Bin Laden was the wihtout-a-doubt leader of the 9/11 attacks, as well as the greater threat to America than Saddam ever was. Just in case that wasn’t in there (I didn’t read it, as I just watched it).
We must stay the course. Tell me why are we gonna withdraw and let Iran be the puppet master of Iraq? If Iran gains control of Iraq after withdrawal they will control most of the worlds oil. Then they will control us, then we will invade once more.
All those lives sacrificed for not. Pulling out is not a damn option. We will lose all credibility and they will point and laugh at us like the mutants on table 9.
"We must stay the course" Im one of them. Wether we like it or not.
Because the correct oil companies got the exploitation contracts they wanted, so we’re all done now. Because Iraq’s Shiite majority made Iran’s influence inevitable in the first place, absent Saddam Hussein (Mission Accomplished!) and we have to go sometime. Because we screwed the pooch so badly and for so long with an unneccessary occupation that we no longer have any other choice. Because the situation is out of control, too many people are dying, and the longer we stay the worse it gets.
Al Gore summed it up pretty well today on the Today Show with Matt Lauer…
invading Iraq was the worst strategic blunder in the history of the United States. He went on to say that Bush should not take the failure personally, and that the course of action should now be about what’s best for America, and not what’s best for Bush’s ego/legacy.
The Iraq Study Group says that the situation in Iraq is “grave and deteriorating”. Remember that the ISG is headed by James A. Baker, long time friend of the Bush family (Baker actually represented President Bush in front of the Supreme Court, when Bush sued Gore in 2001 to stop the ballot counting in Florida.)
The big winner of the Iraq war is Iran. We knocked off their mortal enemy (Saddam) destablizing the Iraq and possibly the entire Mid East. The majority of Iraqis are Shi’ite and have some degree of loyalty to the Iranian fundamentalist leaders. They don’t care about democracy and never did. You can’t force democracy onto another nation with the barrel of a gun.
Bush royally screwed the pooch 6 ways to Sunday, and it was totally unnecessary (no WMDs in Iraq) and lots of people were telling Bush not to do it, way ahead of time. As usual, Bush wouldn’t listen to anyone who didn’t parrot his exact views. Now everyone in America will pay for Bush’s monumental blunder.
But I guess when you think God told you to invade another country, 'ya just gotta do it… Is Bush kooky? Yeah I’d say so.
I wish people would stop talking about our involvement in Iraq in terms of “winning” or “losing.” These assertions are completely content-free, because there are so many possible definitions of what “winning” and “losing” mean.
Gates statement to me was only meaningful as oil poured on troubled waters, a political expedient. The President, of course, has been babbling this nonsense all along. So an effigy of Bush was brought to the hearing room, and Gates was provided with a dagger.
In a similar vein, the Japanese used to make visiting sailors step on crucifixes, to weed out any true believers. This was a litmus test.
[quote]jre67t wrote:
If Iran gains control of Iraq after withdrawal they will control most of the worlds oil. Then they will control us, then we will invade once more.[/quote]
Please stop worrying.
What they would control would be which oil companies got to do the pumping for their oil, and in conjunction with the rest of OPEC, just how much of their oil got pumped how quickly.
That’s basically the ground rules we’re operating on right now. Whoever in the end receives the oil depends on who is willing to pay the most for it. Same as it ever was.
Yes, they would be in a position to cause increases in the oil price. They already are. The available unused production capacity anywhere in the world is now so little, almost any oil producing nation has this power, especially if it were willing to act against its own economic interests for some reason (note: this never happens).
I really think it’s hilarious how Exxon/Mobil et al have got folks up in arms about which large multinational oil firms get to pump what country’s oil. I believe they pay Rush Limbaugh and his ilk to do this to you. Oh right, and the Prez told you so. You believed him? After all that’s gone down?
We did screw the pooch. So be it. We run away and let the terrosist believe they won? Russia left Afghan country and the taliban popped up.
If we did go in for oil, so what. We need oil and we need to have some control, self-preservation.
If we leave, they will focus on Israel and possibly put more resources into trying to hit us where it hurts " our homes".
Every points out that this is Vietnam 2. Lets look at Korea,a little different of course, but we have stabilized the country below the 38th parallel. It would be foolish to just cut our loses.
[quote]jre67t wrote:
We did screw the pooch. So be it. We run away and let the terrosist believe they won? Russia left Afghan country and the taliban popped up.
[/quote]
Afghanistan was a massive anchor around the Soviet Union’s neck. It practically broke their military. They cut out of Afghanistan in a move towards self-preservation.
BTW remember the US was quietly supportive of the Afghan rebels during this time, precisely because it was a black hole for the Soviets. We enjoyed watching the Soviets falter and hemmorage money and resources over there.
Now Bush has us doing the same thing, pretty much.
Raising standards? Hybrid cars? Solar power? Wind power? Bio-feul? HELLO!!
Were an innovation and energy revolution away from the MIddle East losing near all it’s wealth and power.
China gets it. There going green now (it only took smog so thick you can’t see from building to building to convince them).
Why don’t we?
And as for Iraq, we have two situations:
Bad - We pull out, and it ends up splitting into three nations, one controlled by Iran, by Saudi, by Syria ect.
Unacceptable - We stay and continue to fund money and young lives on this unwinable war.
We went in unprepared. We need to admit defeat and pull out, do whats best for Amercans, not the American “image”.
The image isn’t so great right now. No one really “likes” us per se. We need new enviroment friendly innovations, more economic power, and a more competent administration. THEN we’ll get the respect of the world (hopefully).
True words Brad. Now Russia is paying us back by supporting Iran, payback is a bitch.
We cannot lose our self-dignity as the worlds overseer. Yes self-reliance is good but its at least 10 to 20 years away from that type of technology being developed. I agree we have lost to some degree yet don’t you believe we have to recoup our losses? The lives lost, the hopes of the Shitees. If we pull out I truly believe the shit will hit the fan to the extreme.
[quote]Beowolf wrote:
We went in unprepared. We need to admit defeat and pull out, do whats best for Amercans, not the American “image”.
[/quote]
Well, close. do what’s best for Americans and Iraquis, I’d put it. That’s what makes getting out morally difficult: we’re the cause of their distress, we owe them redress if we could manage it, whether staying was good for us or no. But we’ve about reached the point where our staying on in Iraq is bad even for the Iraquis, so that clinches the deal.
[quote]jre67t wrote:
We cannot lose our self-dignity as the worlds overseer. [/quote]
As to the dignity, too late, it’s all gone. We’re the losers, ruined by a fool, and everybody knows it. As to the overseer part, that never existed in the first place. That whole misconception of ourselves was the underlying problem that put us where we are: on our asses.
Really, you should be thankful we’ve lost our dignity as the worlds overseer. It’s a nasty thankless job, and useless into the bargain, unless you’re in the arms biz. Now we can give it up.
[quote]jre67t wrote:
If we did go in for oil, so what. We need oil and we need to have some control, self-preservation.
[/quote]
No we went in for oil contracts, different thing entirely. You use oil, I use oil. There’s always plenty of oil depending on how much you’re willing to pay. Do you or I use oil contracts? No we do not. Large multi-national petroleum businesses use them.
And then they turn around and compete with every other oil company on Earth to sell you and me oil for whatever the market will bear. For this you want to shed blood? To give Exxon/Mobil a stronger competitive position? Remember that whatever your answer, you get all the oil you need and can pay for, and the price is the same. Still want to play soldier in the exciting war for oil?
What on earth are you talking about? The Kurdish part was already stable before we even got there, if that’s what you mean. Provided we gave Turkey a stern talking to, it would remain stable even if we left. The rest of Iraq is in chaos, and our presence is one of the reasons.