US Citizen Killed on Flotilla

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Jewbacca something you need to know about Orion is he has been on this ridiculous rant for years. Whenever there is a bad actor who has a run in with someone who isn’t going to bullshit around and play games he goes off on these moralistic rants.

What you will find with Orion is his indignation is highly conditional. For example it does not bother him that Hamas has been indiscriminately hurling missiles into Israel for years. Nor does it bother Orion that Hamas has engaged in pogroms against Palestinian Christians in Gaza. The Israelis have good reason to be concerned about what is being given to Hamas.

This is what Hamas did with a group of Fatah members after Hamas seized control of Gaza.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6041204945834291260&hl=en#

Hamas are ruthless killers. Yet there are idiots like Orion who will insist the Israelis should play games with them. It was known beforehand that those ships intended to run the Israeli blockade of Gaza. So the Israelis did what they had to do to protect their best interests. [/quote]

Thank you very much. I assumed Orion was an idiot, but you never know.

A lot of people get their news from the BBC or the alphabet networks, so they lack the basic knowledge, and when informed of basic facts (e.g., “arab East Jerusalem” was a mixed Jewish/moslem/Christian neighborhood for over a 1000 years until Jordan came in and killed or expelled the Jews and Christians in 1948) they change sides or stop moral relavism.

The lawfare folks who quote the UN (which is an absurd joke) or gin-up a lather about perceived legal violations (we had a Turkish flag on our blockade runner!) and ignore things like lobbing missles at school children are transparent evil people, and I can’t be bothered.
[/quote]

In Britain they call the BBC, Al Beeb because of it’s extreme pro muslim bias. Al Beeb is a highly politicized leftist organization that in no way can be considered to be unbiased. Al Beeb is run by Fabians and Fabian sympathizers and is a propaganda organization for them. The British people can’t even trust Al Beeb to advocate for their best interests.

Just so you know who they are. The infamous eugenicist George Bernard Shaw who originated the idea of death camps was a charter member of Fabian society.

George Bernard Shaw Defends Hitler, Mass Murder - YouTube

[/quote]

He also came up with the line “undeserving eaters.” Fucking-A.

63

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
Oh, and here is Craig Murray, who is a former British Ambassador and also a former Head of the Maritime Section of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office:

There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.

Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.

Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.

In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution.

So if someone who is an expert in maritime law actually agrees with my position, I guess my embarassement is bearable.

[/quote]

As a result of disciplinary action for trading UK Visa’s for sex Murray was charged with gross misconduct and relieved of his duties as ambassador to Uzbekistan. He is a Liberal Democrat who cannot be considered an unbiased source of information. [/quote]

Ha ha ha!

Orion’s type of guy.

They can share their embarassment![/quote]

Yeah, I know.

Cheap ad hominems instead of dealing with the arguiments.

And you think it is me who embarasses himself?

65

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

And you think it is me who embarasses himself?

[/quote]
Nah, you passed “embarrassment” a while back and are now approaching “clown.”[/quote]

I rest my case.

66

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
Oh, and here is Craig Murray, who is a former British Ambassador and also a former Head of the Maritime Section of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office:

There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.

Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.

Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.

In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution.

So if someone who is an expert in maritime law actually agrees with my position, I guess my embarassement is bearable.

[/quote]

As a result of disciplinary action for trading UK Visa’s for sex Murray was charged with gross misconduct and relieved of his duties as ambassador to Uzbekistan. He is a Liberal Democrat who cannot be considered an unbiased source of information. [/quote]

But he can considered to be an expert on maritime law.

I hear the British are quite good at that, having some naval tradition, and he was their chief.
[/quote]

The British have boarded vessels in neutral water so you are wrong. ie The Altmark affair which occurred inside the territorial waters of neutral Norway in February 1940. Before the Altmark affair the Germans had routinely traversed Norwegian waters taking advantage of Norwegian neutrality to protect them. It is how Germany was able to safely transport iron ore from Sweden at the beginning of the war.

The Altmark was a supply ship for the Graf Spee that was transporting British pows through Norwegian waters figuring they were safe from the Royal Navy because they would not enter neutral water to free the men. The royal Navy destroyer HMS Cossack tried to intercept the Altmark which retreated up a Norwegian fjord.

A day later under direct orders from the First Sea Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill, HMS Cossack sailed past a Norwegian naval vessel that tried to stop it, entered the fjord, then a boarding party armed with cutlasses and pistols boarded the Altmark, killed 6 Germans, wounded 8 and freed 299 British merchant seamen who were being held prisoner.

After that, because the British had so dramatically demonstrated that they were not going to play a game where they let their enemy use neutrality against them as a weapon the Germans invaded Norway.

Winston Churchill did not bullshit around with his people’s enemies, he took care of business. The Israelis are wise to do the same. The fact that people like you are offended shows that they are doing the right thing.

67

No one really gives a shot about this as International law does not apply to Israel. They murder and take land that is not theirs and no one gives a shit.

68

what do you expect, people came from europe and tore their land into pieces, killed many of their people, and created a new state.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Bambi wrote:
the whole Israeli-Palestine conflict = two people beating their heads against a brick wall until the other one falls down[/quote]

Um, no.

That’s called “false moral equivalency” and is for weak minds.

If the arabs put down their weapons today, there would be peace tomorrow.

If the Israelis put down their weapons today, there would be peace tomorrow afternoon — because the Israelis would all be dead by about noon.

Israeli is totally cool with an arab state in Gaza. But the arabs in Gaza are not totally cool with Israel. They believe us Jews have to die.

It’s a fundamental difference and the two sides are not “morally equivalent.”[/quote]

69

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
Oh, and here is Craig Murray, who is a former British Ambassador and also a former Head of the Maritime Section of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office:

There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.

Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.

Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.

In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution.

So if someone who is an expert in maritime law actually agrees with my position, I guess my embarassement is bearable.

[/quote]

As a result of disciplinary action for trading UK Visa’s for sex Murray was charged with gross misconduct and relieved of his duties as ambassador to Uzbekistan. He is a Liberal Democrat who cannot be considered an unbiased source of information. [/quote]

But he can considered to be an expert on maritime law.

I hear the British are quite good at that, having some naval tradition, and he was their chief.
[/quote]

The British have boarded vessels in neutral water so you are wrong. ie The Altmark affair which occurred inside the territorial waters of neutral Norway in February 1940. Before the Altmark affair the Germans had routinely traversed Norwegian waters taking advantage of Norwegian neutrality to protect them. It is how Germany was able to safely transport iron ore from Sweden at the beginning of the war.

The Altmark was a supply ship for the Graf Spee that was transporting British pows through Norwegian waters figuring they were safe from the Royal Navy because they would not enter neutral water to free the men. The royal Navy destroyer HMS Cossack tried to intercept the Altmark which retreated up a Norwegian fjord.

A day later under direct orders from the First Sea Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill, HMS Cossack sailed past a Norwegian naval vessel that tried to stop it, entered the fjord, then a boarding party armed with cutlasses and pistols boarded the Altmark, killed 6 Germans, wounded 8 and freed 299 British merchant seamen who were being held prisoner.

After that, because the British had so dramatically demonstrated that they were not going to play a game where they let their enemy use neutrality against them as a weapon the Germans invaded Norway.

Winston Churchill did not bullshit around with his people’s enemies, he took care of business. The Israelis are wise to do the same. The fact that people like you are offended shows that they are doing the right thing. [/quote]

So your point is that if someone breaks a law, nobody else can break that law ever again?

70

[quote]weby wrote:
I think its time the US distanced itself a little from the Israeli establishment.[/quote]

I agree with the above, but in all honesty I think the US should quit sticking its head in middle east politics. The fact that there was a US citizen among the dead well tough shit, DON"T GET ON FLOTILLAS!

71

[quote]weby wrote:
what do you expect, people came from europe and tore their land into pieces, killed many of their people, and created a new state.

That’s factually incorrect in many, many regards.

  1. There has long been a majority Jewish presense in Israel. Mark Twain, for example, in Innocents Abroad recounted his visit to Jerusalem. I suggest you read his account. Empty, but for Haredi Jews and some Roman Catholic priests maintaining the churches, and some crazy Russian Jewish people who got tired of being killed and bought a plot of land in the middle of the desert. Turkish census have the same information.

  2. Tel Aviv — was land purchased fair and square from the private owners. It was empty desert. Founded mid-1800s.

  3. “Arab East Jerusalem” became “arab” in 1948 when formerly Nazi-backed Hashemites from Jordan invaded and killed or expelled the Jewish residents. The troops wore SS uniforms.

  4. Most Jewish people are native born now, but do not trace themselves from the expulsions in Russia in the late 1800s or Europe. Most were kicked out of muslim countries in their pograms. (You see, Muslims refuse to live with Jewish people, not the other way around.)

  5. The “palestinians” in Gaza and most of East Jerusalem (who are not palestinian, they are arabs from Syria, Jordan, or Eqypt — palestians aka “Philisteins” were a Greek people, long returned to their lands) actually came AFTER the various influxes of Jewish residents, looking for work. They are a migrant people and were treated poorly in Syria, Jordan, and Eqypt, so were happy to get work from the Jewish people.

  6. Every square inch of Israel has been bought and paid for by willing buyers and willing sellers. This whole “stole land” thing is a lie from whole clothe.

  7. Arabs are free, productive, voting, military-serving members of Israel. The most free, most educated and most self-decribed as “happy” arabs in the world live in Israel. They are not killed, treated poorly, or anything else. Just citizens like the rest of us.

  8. Israel has never started a war. We do finish them, though.

Now, stop repeating the BBC talking points.

72

Jewbacca, firstly, happpy new year and may the next hundred be idiot-free.

i don’t know how familiar you are with weby - I’ve read quite a bit of his stuff and he is on automatic Jew/Israel-hate. he, like so many antiIsrael types thinks and types on automatic. there is nothing rational about his material, so no point trying to deal with him rationally. Having said that, others who are interested in Israel’s battle with the Arabs (as distinct from being reflexive Jewhaters) and actually want to learn something may pick up something useful from your posts and other knowledgable posts on this subject.

In addition, I’d like to say that while Israel, being the world’s donkey boy at the moment, is only the most visible example of the jihad against the West. While the rest of the world looks upon and excoriates Israel for everything under the sun, the countries of these excoriators are being undermined, colonised and slowly swallowed by the continuous ideological nincursions of Saudi-backed Islam and its groupies.

So keep munching the crisps while watching what you think is a separate show, Weby. Your precious England is being eaten away from under your pathetic hate-filled feet, and because you’re too busy hating Israel and the Jews you’ve got no time to protect it.

But then, every country who ever sold out the Jews suffered greatly. You cna’t sell out your own and fellow citizens without doing a deal with gangsters, and as we’ve seen in the last couple of decades, the nature of the Islamic beast is something the EU deal-makers cannot control.

73

Orion wrote:

“Hamas is a politcal party, not an army.”
It’s possible to be both.

They believe in jihad which is holy (Islamic) war. Moreover, they are an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood which has as a key principle:
“The Ikhwan (brotherhood) must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim’s destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who chose to slack. But, would the slackers and the Mujahedeen be equal.”

Hamas says of itself in the Hamas covenant:
“The Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) is one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine. Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times. It is characterised by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgement, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam.”

They’re jihadists therefore they are an army, therefore they have military aims and one of the wars they wage is against Israel and their IHH members, who, partly financed by the Turkish government, were on the Mavi Marmara flotilla boat were also members of the jihadi Muslim Brotherhood ie they had declared war on Israel.

Read more at: An Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal for the Brotherhood in North America :: Archive Documents :: The Investigative Project on Terrorism

74

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
Oh, and here is Craig Murray, who is a former British Ambassador and also a former Head of the Maritime Section of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office:

There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.

Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.

Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.

In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution.

So if someone who is an expert in maritime law actually agrees with my position, I guess my embarassement is bearable.

[/quote]

As a result of disciplinary action for trading UK Visa’s for sex Murray was charged with gross misconduct and relieved of his duties as ambassador to Uzbekistan. He is a Liberal Democrat who cannot be considered an unbiased source of information. [/quote]

But he can considered to be an expert on maritime law.

I hear the British are quite good at that, having some naval tradition, and he was their chief.
[/quote]

The British have boarded vessels in neutral water so you are wrong. ie The Altmark affair which occurred inside the territorial waters of neutral Norway in February 1940. Before the Altmark affair the Germans had routinely traversed Norwegian waters taking advantage of Norwegian neutrality to protect them. It is how Germany was able to safely transport iron ore from Sweden at the beginning of the war.

The Altmark was a supply ship for the Graf Spee that was transporting British pows through Norwegian waters figuring they were safe from the Royal Navy because they would not enter neutral water to free the men. The royal Navy destroyer HMS Cossack tried to intercept the Altmark which retreated up a Norwegian fjord.

A day later under direct orders from the First Sea Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill, HMS Cossack sailed past a Norwegian naval vessel that tried to stop it, entered the fjord, then a boarding party armed with cutlasses and pistols boarded the Altmark, killed 6 Germans, wounded 8 and freed 299 British merchant seamen who were being held prisoner.

After that, because the British had so dramatically demonstrated that they were not going to play a game where they let their enemy use neutrality against them as a weapon the Germans invaded Norway.

Winston Churchill did not bullshit around with his people’s enemies, he took care of business. The Israelis are wise to do the same. The fact that people like you are offended shows that they are doing the right thing. [/quote]

So your point is that if someone breaks a law, nobody else can break that law ever again?
[/quote]

Have you been spending a lot of time at Oktoberfest? Because I don’t know how you came up with that one. You are the one who is quoting a junior clark in the Crete maritime office whose greatest responsibility was issuing fishing licenses. While I have countered your argument with the actions of a much higher authority.

The First Sea Lord is responsible for the defense of the realm. What Winston Churchill did was show how you prevail in a time of war. War is hell. It is not a game of cricket. You don’t allow your enemy to have safe zones so they can freely move logistics that they are going to use to kill your people.

75

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]weby wrote:
what do you expect, people came from europe and tore their land into pieces, killed many of their people, and created a new state.

That’s factually incorrect in many, many regards.

  1. There has long been a majority Jewish presense in Israel. Mark Twain, for example, in Innocents Abroad recounted his visit to Jerusalem. I suggest you read his account. Empty, but for Haredi Jews and some Roman Catholic priests maintaining the churches, and some crazy Russian Jewish people who got tired of being killed and bought a plot of land in the middle of the desert. Turkish census have the same information.

  2. Tel Aviv — was land purchased fair and square from the private owners. It was empty desert. Founded mid-1800s.

  3. “Arab East Jerusalem” became “arab” in 1948 when formerly Nazi-backed Hashemites from Jordan invaded and killed or expelled the Jewish residents. The troops wore SS uniforms.

  4. Most Jewish people are native born now, but do not trace themselves from the expulsions in Russia in the late 1800s or Europe. Most were kicked out of muslim countries in their pograms. (You see, Muslims refuse to live with Jewish people, not the other way around.)

  5. The “palestinians” in Gaza and most of East Jerusalem (who are not palestinian, they are arabs from Syria, Jordan, or Eqypt — palestians aka “Philisteins” were a Greek people, long returned to their lands) actually came AFTER the various influxes of Jewish residents, looking for work. They are a migrant people and were treated poorly in Syria, Jordan, and Eqypt, so were happy to get work from the Jewish people.

  6. Every square inch of Israel has been bought and paid for by willing buyers and willing sellers. This whole “stole land” thing is a lie from whole clothe.

  7. Arabs are free, productive, voting, military-serving members of Israel. The most free, most educated and most self-decribed as “happy” arabs in the world live in Israel. They are not killed, treated poorly, or anything else. Just citizens like the rest of us.

  8. Israel has never started a war. We do finish them, though.

Now, stop repeating the BBC talking points.[/quote]

Something I would like to is your fifth point. Many of the “Palestinians” have family names that can be directly traced to villages all over the middle east. The reason why their grand parents moved to the area is because of the Zionists. At the beginning of the Zionist movement the area was almost uninhabited. When the first Zionist settlers started moving in and doing things like repairing old Roman aquaducts to irrigate farms they started to create an economy.

This began to attract more Jews like those fleeing the Russian pograms. Which created even more of an economy. Eventually the Jewish population had grown to the point that the Ottomans noticed what was happening and decided to do something about it. Their solution was to put a strict quota on the number of Jews who would be allowed to immigrate. So when the Zionists needed more people to support their growing economy instead of bringing in more Jews they had to bring in Arabs. This is how the bulk of the “Palestinians” ended up living there.

76

Israel is a state which does not have fixed borders except those included in the resolution of the United Nations 181 of 1948, Israel illegally occupies grounds and does not stop expanding over the years, always with the best pretexts,
Israel did not take into account any of the 65 resolutions of the UN or the 30 vetos from the United States,
Israel continuously scorns international law, the only one which can potentially solve the conflict, using consensus,

Israel is openly violating the Geneva Convention on the protection of civil populations in wartime, and was condemned by many NGOs such as Amnesty International,
Israel uses cluster bombs against civil populations (more than a million during the 2006 war against Lebanon) invoking â??self-defenseâ?? (sic!),
Israel uses white phosphorus bombs (incendiary devices!) in over-populated civilian zones: Tsahal, the Israeli army, admitted it, after denying it for a long time whereas humanitarians NGOs were denouncing it,

The Israeli press praised the technological exploits of its air force which uses smart bombs, GBU 39 with Uranium Depleted, to bomb their targets in the Gaza Strip: everywhere else, this is called â??a crime against humanityâ??. Except in Israel,

77

A picture speaks a thousand words:

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.israel-stop.com/carte-israel-palestine.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.israel-stop.com/&usg=__U_KasGxpOmQB_l2W8SwWJWgeJHg=&h=413&w=600&sz=54&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=pk37HjBF02G_dM:&tbnh=140&tbnw=203&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpalestine%2Bisrael%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1023%26bih%3D648%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=580&vpy=135&dur=360&hovh=140&hovw=203&tx=95&ty=82&ei=7jK3TNH2AsjpOZftsKQJ&oei=7jK3TNH2AsjpOZftsKQJ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=14&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0

78

[quote]weby wrote:
Israel is a state which does not have fixed borders except those included in the resolution of the United Nations 181 of 1948, Israel illegally occupies grounds and does not stop expanding over the years, always with the best pretexts,
Israel did not take into account any of the 65 resolutions of the UN or the 30 vetos from the United States,
Israel continuously scorns international law, the only one which can potentially solve the conflict, using consensus,

Israel is openly violating the Geneva Convention on the protection of civil populations in wartime, and was condemned by many NGOs such as Amnesty International,
Israel uses cluster bombs against civil populations (more than a million during the 2006 war against Lebanon) invoking â??self-defenseâ?? (sic!),
Israel uses white phosphorus bombs (incendiary devices!) in over-populated civilian zones: Tsahal, the Israeli army, admitted it, after denying it for a long time whereas humanitarians NGOs were denouncing it,

The Israeli press praised the technological exploits of its air force which uses smart bombs, GBU 39 with Uranium Depleted, to bomb their targets in the Gaza Strip: everywhere else, this is called â??a crime against humanityâ??. Except in Israel,
[/quote]

After world war one, when the Ottoman empire was being broken up at Versailles and the various countries of the middle east were being created the “international community” had the opportunity to apply “international law” and give the Jews back their ancestral homeland. Even after Hitler came along and said he was going to wipe out the Jews the British stuck to “international law” and refused to let them back into their homeland.

“International law” scorned the Jews at the time of their greatest need and millions died as a result. Thanks to the British and their ruthless, heartless, enforcement of the Palestine mandate the Jews got a lesson in “international law” that they will be wise to never forget. For you to now invoke “international law” as something that they should slavishly obey to their detriment is pure unadulterated bullshit. You need to get your head out of your ass and come into the real world.

79

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]weby wrote:
Israel is a state which does not have fixed borders except those included in the resolution of the United Nations 181 of 1948, Israel illegally occupies grounds and does not stop expanding over the years, always with the best pretexts,
Israel did not take into account any of the 65 resolutions of the UN or the 30 vetos from the United States,
Israel continuously scorns international law, the only one which can potentially solve the conflict, using consensus,

Israel is openly violating the Geneva Convention on the protection of civil populations in wartime, and was condemned by many NGOs such as Amnesty International,
Israel uses cluster bombs against civil populations (more than a million during the 2006 war against Lebanon) invoking �¢??self-defense�¢?? (sic!),
Israel uses white phosphorus bombs (incendiary devices!) in over-populated civilian zones: Tsahal, the Israeli army, admitted it, after denying it for a long time whereas humanitarians NGOs were denouncing it,

The Israeli press praised the technological exploits of its air force which uses smart bombs, GBU 39 with Uranium Depleted, to bomb their targets in the Gaza Strip: everywhere else, this is called �¢??a crime against humanity�¢??. Except in Israel,
[/quote]

After world war one, when the Ottoman empire was being broken up at Versailles and the various countries of the middle east were being created the “international community” had the opportunity to apply “international law” and give the Jews back their ancestral homeland. Even after Hitler came along and said he was going to wipe out the Jews the British stuck to “international law” and refused to let them back into their homeland.

“International law” scorned the Jews at the time of their greatest need and millions died as a result. Thanks to the British and their ruthless, heartless, enforcement of the Palestine mandate the Jews got a lesson in “international law” that they will be wise to never forget. For you to now invoke “international law” as something that they should slavishly obey to their detriment is pure unadulterated bullshit. You need to get your head out of your ass and come into the real world.

[/quote]
Although two wrongs don’t necessarily make a right. Say the british were ‘ruthless’, does that justify what the jews are doing now?

Is there an isolated group of people that have received as much bad press as jews? There have been incidences of certain nationalities being looked down upon and such, but having been driven out of so many countries in the past? There are a lot of Israel friendly organizations and movements in so many european states. Is there a “friends of Portugal” or a “friends of Finland” org somewhere in Israel? I do not know. Or is it like some people claim, that jews primarily identify as a race, always think about what’s good for them and are therefore ‘racist’?
You can go to any leftist and hear that “blacks” have been oppressed or that “whites” have been bad but these designations are broader than hell and make no sense. “Whites” provide state forced foreign aid to Africa while many of their citizens are battling poverty. America provides state forced welfare to Israel numbering in billions.

Another persecuted, racially solid group coming to mind is the indian, romany gypsy who have been prominently featured recently due to habitating as a nuisance in France, Romania, Sweden, Finland etc. The media does its best to portray them in a neutral light, even to the point of lying while the thing is that it was legal to kill members of this bandit race a little more than a hundred years ago (this might be a slight exaggeration) if they seemed to be causing trouble. Given how they based their existence around sociopathic disregard for their hosts, the people who provided them a relatively human existence through misdirected charity or by being robbed, it does not seem that cruel. Nothing has changed during all those centuries.
Consequently, the nazis allegedly gassed the hell out of them which probably bothered no one.

80

[quote]'nuffsaid wrote:
Orion wrote:

“Hamas is a politcal party, not an army.”
It’s possible to be both.

They believe in jihad which is holy (Islamic) war. Moreover, they are an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood which has as a key principle:
“The Ikhwan (brotherhood) must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim’s destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who chose to slack. But, would the slackers and the Mujahedeen be equal.”

Hamas says of itself in the Hamas covenant:
“The Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) is one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine. Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times. It is characterised by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgement, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam.”

They’re jihadists therefore they are an army, therefore they have military aims and one of the wars they wage is against Israel and their IHH members, who, partly financed by the Turkish government, were on the Mavi Marmara flotilla boat were also members of the jihadi Muslim Brotherhood ie they had declared war on Israel.

Read more at: http://www.investigativeproject.org/document/id/20[/quote]

I do not contest that they are lunatics, I dp claim that they are not an army in the sense of the definition of the UN treaty, which makes them quite incapable of committing an act of war.

If they conspire with other dolts that still does not make them an army, it makes them a bucnch of weirdos frolicking around in international waters AND under a Turkish flag in this instance.