This is one of the reasons why the traditional cyclical ketogenic diet is flawed. As research from Jacob Wilson showed, it’s a recipe for muscle loss and fat gain. Yet, many folks still persist with it probably due to the ‘punishment’ (keto eating Monday to Friday) ‘reward’ (carb loading Sat and Sun) mentality.
I’m getting a little confused here. Didn’t you mention being on a cyclical diet very similar to that described in McDonald’s rapid fat loss book and having good results with it?
Nope. I tried the PSMF, with good results, and tried to stick to keto macros upon conclusion.
So you’re not doing the 5 days a week PSMF 2 days refeed anymore?
This is not sustainable, in my opinion, for more than a couple of weeks at a time. I also never did a ‘refeed’ per se as refeeds are ostensibly geared towards leptin function and require carbs to be effective. Whereas, as I mentioned, I tried to return to keto macros.
What I’ve been doing since the start of May is alternative day PSMF. Progress is much slower but I feel completely normal (so far). When I was doing longer stints of PSMF, I was constantly cold and urinating nonstop! I am also able to train using much more volume, which I am enjoying after 6 months following a very low volume approach.
What does it look like in practice?
Is it geared towards fat loss and muscle retention (or possibly gain)?
PSMF: I aim to hit about 1,000 kcals with PRO around 150g; CHO 30-50g; and FAT 30g or so. Those macros include 15g CHO and 10-15 FAT from MCTs pre-workout (which form part of a targeted ketogenic approach which I have used for months now).
In practice, that’s a shake at lunchtime with protein concentrate and micellar casein; greens powder, psyllium husk, kelp powder, chlorella powder (stuff I have lying around, basically) and a few grams of fish oil. You are looking at 200 kcals.
Peri-workout is as I have described pre-workout with the addition of 20g or so of Peptopro. Intra is EAAs and or whey isolate.
Dinner is stuff like salad with low calorie dressings. I also make large stir fries using minced chicken breast, some veg, and konjac noodles, all of which generates a lot of bulk in your stomach. I usually top it off with a protein mug cake using protein powder and low calorie almond milk, with Walden Farm sauce, etc.
On alternative days, I follow something similar but add 10g or so oil to the shake (or just eat a PRO/FAT meal). And a similar meal at night but using beef or a fattier meat, and adding stuff like coconut flour and peanut butter to my mug cake dessert. Maybe some nuts here or there, or I had a couple of hard boiled eggs the other day late afternoon as I did feel hungry.
On these days, I aim for something like 1,800 to 2,000 (max) calories. PRO slightly lower; CHO the same; and FAT much higher.
Blood ketones are panning out around 1.1mmol late afternoon, which is quite high for me.
Geared towards fat loss but it has become more like re-composition as scale weight has hardly moved but I feel as though I have gained mass. Ideally, I would like to drop fat quicker (who wouldn’t) but I’m sticking with this for another two weeks, when I go on holiday, and can judge things then.
A few thoughts: you most likely have done more research than me on this, but this doesn’t really look like a PSMF to me. There are quite a bit of carbs and fat, and if I recall correctly McDonald says that in order for an approach like this to work, they both need to be reduced to barely traces.
Also, isn’t protein a bit low?
In place of the concentrate/casein blend?
How often do you alternate? Is it related to workout vs non-workout days? Also, what’s the goal of alternating?
I’ll do my research on this now but in a few words, what is targeted ketogenic?
Sorry for the boatload of questions, I’ve been interested in this topic for a while now and I believe you are knowledgeable and have quite some experience when it comes to this.
[quote=“samul, post:49, topic:241876”]
A few thoughts: you most likely have done more research than me on this, but this doesn’t really look like a PSMF to me. There are quite a bit of carbs and fat, and if I recall correctly McDonald says that in order for an approach like this to work, they both need to be reduced to barely traces.
Also, isn’t protein a bit low?
Well for a start, McDonald isn’t the founding father of PSMF. Just because a version does not match his RFL does not mean it is not PSMF. Second, you are right: CHO and FAT may appear higher but overall calories are still low (as low as McDonald would have you if you follow his higher PRO intake formula). Further, most of the additional CHO/FAT is from the peri-workout protocol. And I want to keep making gains so it makes no sense to sacrifice this in the name of PSMF.
No, the Peptopro is taken pre-WO with the carbs and MCTs.
So far literally one day PSMF; one day keto, wherever they may fall. Workouts remain constant, i.e. intensity does not vary based on whether it is a low calorie/normal calorie day. The overall goal is to keep fat loss sustainable without potential implications associated with chronic dieting.
Essentially, a standard ketogenic diet but you factor in some carbs around workouts. Now the research is scarce here so it’s very much based on anecdotal stuff I have picked up. By ingesting a very small amount of fast-acting carbs pre-workout you provide an energy source for glycolic activity such as strength training, and likely mitigate the cortisol response to the session. This is amplified by the addition of MCTs, which are very keto-friendly. The addition of the Peptopro here is just another layer of harnessing the carbs, in this case to help drive the resulting aminos into the muscles. As mentioned, I will probably drop out of ketosis around this time, coupled with the gluconeogenic response to the large protein-dense late evening meal post-training, yet the following afternoon I am in a fairly deep level of ketosis again.
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Ultimately, do you think being in ketosis produces any tangible positive effects on fat loss over other approaches that still limit carb and calorie intake?
The research appears to show neither is better and it comes down to which best achieves compliance/adherence. However, there is science showing fat-adapted athletes burn more fat when exercising while gaining/maintaining lean mass as well as their carb-ingesting counterparts. Further, the cognitive benefits associated with ketosis bring in a whole host of potential benefits.
From personal experience, I have dieted on low calories using higher carbs and it was torture. Whereas on keto, and to a degree PSMF, I can actually consume even less energy and yet feel/perform far better. So I prefer this but it is a restrictive diet and that’s why many, including myself, fall off the keto bandwagon. It’s about doing what is best for you to the best of your ability.
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