Unions Hunting Wal-Mart

I have a couple of questions.

Should a person expect to make a living off of a Wal-Mart job? That is to say, is this the type of job that a head of household type should even have? I’ve always thought that a job at Wal-Mart was better suited for a second source of income, either for a spouse or as a second job.

Now that’s fine if you disagree, but my next question would be if you think Wal-Mart should pay a better wage, how much more do you think it should be?

For instance I know that there are companies like Costco who do pay better wages and seem to be doing very well, and I think they pay 3 or 4 more dollars an hour then Wal-Mart, though I could be wrong about that. Or do you think they should just offer better benefits? And yes I know that benefits equal money for all intents and purposes.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

Who’s being elitist now!? Jesus Christ, this is why I will never understand how anyone thinks Republicans help the common man. Doogie here is a standing example. I thought we figured out that there’s lots of dumb people out there with degrees- hell, you guys rant and rave over the “liberal media”, the “hippie professors” in academia, and lots of other educated people. You have exposed the basic contradiction and greatest lie of the Republican party here. [/quote]

Garbage. Look, forget politics - who doesn’t suggest that a better education gets you a better income?

You can see this concept in every community college commercial on television, aimed right at Joe Sixpack - so quit the sniveling about ‘elitism’. You’re just arguing in bad faith because you get to feel all revved up with classist froth.

Better education = better income. Greatest lie of the Republican party? Be serious.

A mechanic is an educated man - trained in a very marketable trade. And, mechanics know that if they traded in their mechanics’ training for a medical degree, they’d make more money. The idea that more education means more income is obvious to a guy who gets grease on his hands - how come it’s not to you?

You desperately hope that a Republican is a caricature of a sneering millionaire who thinks the guys landscaping his yard are subhuman. It is a pathetic cartoon.

How many Democrats sneer at the values and attitudes of the average guy? How difficult has it been for the Democrats to make inroads with the cheap-beer drinking, NASCAR watching ‘working class’ guys you romanticize about?

You need to learn a bit about the ‘working class’ you seem to think you represent. The ‘working class’ are generally quite content to be middle-class and they don’t have this raging resentment of people who drive Jaguars and belong to country clubs. In fact, if it is fair to generalize at all about a ‘class’, the middle class has a great deal of fun at the expense of rich people.

As for Wal-Mart - I don’t shop there for a number of reasons. And I think the employees deserve better, but the solution must help more than it hurts. A simple unintended consequence is that with rising wage costs, some may lose their jobs. Are we prepared to deal with a situation that has trade-offs and no perfect solutions?

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
lucasa wrote:
vroom wrote:
God forbid people get any more than the absolute fucking minimum of anything… it would just be fucking horrible if people could earn a few extra bucks and have a bit more comfort in their lives.

$9.68 IS NOT THE MINIMUM!! Funny how one person can put themselves through school and/or provide for themselves at minimum wage whereas another needs paid. It is fucking horrible that people have a bit more comfort in their lives because it is “ordained” so at the cost of the general public/consumer, especially when it’s NOT THE MINIMUM!

LOL. No, its not the legal minimum. But trying living off it. See how well that goes. That doesn’t cover my car insurance in NJ.[/quote]

NJ is controlled by Democrats Irish and has been for a long time. The cost of living is high due to over regulation, high property tax, entitlements and a non-competitive market for car issurance due to regulation. Pennsylvania has car insurance that is far less costly…what’s the difference?

Walmart should leave the communities that don’t want it.

The Pa. motto of"America Starts here" was telling for lots of reasons.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

Who’s being elitist now!? Jesus Christ, this is why I will never understand how anyone thinks Republicans help the common man. Doogie here is a standing example. I thought we figured out that there’s lots of dumb people out there with degrees- hell, you guys rant and rave over the “liberal media”, the “hippie professors” in academia, and lots of other educated people. You have exposed the basic contradiction and greatest lie of the Republican party here.

Garbage. Look, forget politics - who doesn’t suggest that a better education gets you a better income?
[/quote]

Not I. I didn’t say it. But I don’t believe that a degree is the measure of a man, and I don’t think that it should have such a strong bearing on what people get paid.

The jobs that pay money and require a college degree are not more important than the ones that don’t. They may be better paying, and have more “stature”, but as far as society functioning as a whole, there are few jobs that are really head and shoulders above the rest.

That quote was ridiculously elitist. I am not arguing in bad faith at all- I reacted to what he said. And that’s not irrational at all.

Classist froth? The hell does that mean? You’re blaming me for realizing that this entire issue is about class struggle? Just calling a spade a spade brother. Maybe [i[you’re[/i] missing the point.

Not what I meant. Their greatest lie is convincing the working class that they really stand for them, when in reality it is nothing of the sort, in fact, they will go out of their way to fuck over workers as much as they can.

I never said that I didn’t realize it. Yet once again, the mechanic’s job is as important as 85% of the other jobs. As important as the medical field? Maybe. Ambulances don’t run if he doesn’t fix them. Society requires all these things to function.

LOL. I am not very far off. The guys that vote Republican may or may not be like that. The guys that run on Republican tickets? Ha.

As I recall, don’t the Republicans want every Mexican landscaper deported or shot? Isn’t there a big wall they want to build? I don’t think they respect those landscapers as much as you think.

I have no idea how many sneer. Nor do I care. I’ve said it time and again that they are two sides of the same coin. I don’t care for one side or the other.

The workers must be different where you live. I don’t claim to represent everyone. But I do think they’ve grown content with scraps from the table instead of the four course meal.

Really? How’d I miss the carnival?

[quote]
As for Wal-Mart - I don’t shop there for a number of reasons. And I think the employees deserve better, but the solution must help more than it hurts. A simple unintended consequence is that with rising wage costs, some may lose their jobs. Are we prepared to deal with a situation that has trade-offs and no perfect solutions? [/quote]

This is reasonable. However, maybe Wal-Mart needs to reign in their massive expansion over the entire country and treat their people better. I know it might cut into their profit, but sometimes you just have to make that trade.

Why won’t you shop at Wal-Mart?

[quote]hedo wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
lucasa wrote:
vroom wrote:
God forbid people get any more than the absolute fucking minimum of anything… it would just be fucking horrible if people could earn a few extra bucks and have a bit more comfort in their lives.

$9.68 IS NOT THE MINIMUM!! Funny how one person can put themselves through school and/or provide for themselves at minimum wage whereas another needs paid. It is fucking horrible that people have a bit more comfort in their lives because it is “ordained” so at the cost of the general public/consumer, especially when it’s NOT THE MINIMUM!

LOL. No, its not the legal minimum. But trying living off it. See how well that goes. That doesn’t cover my car insurance in NJ.

NJ is controlled by Democrats Irish and has been for a long time. The cost of living is high due to over regulation, high property tax, entitlements and a non-competitive market for car issurance due to regulation. Pennsylvania has car insurance that is far less costly…what’s the difference?
[/quote]

Car insurance was bungled. Agreed. There are plenty of other problems, of course, as there are anywhere.

We also have the best school systems, one of the richest counties in the entire country, and a higher standard of living than most everyone else. We stopped suburban sprawl, reduced pollution in the rivers, and done a damn good job on social issues. They’ve done some good things as far as I’m concerned.

I hate that motto. Yea, you have cheap car insurance…but you have to live in Pennsylvania. Not too mention root for the Eagles. Fuck that.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
hedo wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
lucasa wrote:
vroom wrote:
God forbid people get any more than the absolute fucking minimum of anything… it would just be fucking horrible if people could earn a few extra bucks and have a bit more comfort in their lives.

$9.68 IS NOT THE MINIMUM!! Funny how one person can put themselves through school and/or provide for themselves at minimum wage whereas another needs paid. It is fucking horrible that people have a bit more comfort in their lives because it is “ordained” so at the cost of the general public/consumer, especially when it’s NOT THE MINIMUM!

LOL. No, its not the legal minimum. But trying living off it. See how well that goes. That doesn’t cover my car insurance in NJ.

NJ is controlled by Democrats Irish and has been for a long time. The cost of living is high due to over regulation, high property tax, entitlements and a non-competitive market for car issurance due to regulation. Pennsylvania has car insurance that is far less costly…what’s the difference?

Car insurance was bungled. Agreed. There are plenty of other problems, of course, as there are anywhere.

We also have the best school systems, one of the richest counties in the entire country, and a higher standard of living than most everyone else. We stopped suburban sprawl, reduced pollution in the rivers, and done a damn good job on social issues. They’ve done some good things as far as I’m concerned.

The Pa. motto of"America Starts here" was telling for lots of reasons.

I hate that motto. Yea, you have cheap car insurance…but you have to live in Pennsylvania. Not too mention root for the Eagles. Fuck that.[/quote]

Come on man…the Giants…give me a break. Who could love them.

[quote]doogie wrote:
I didn’t realize people were forced at gunpoint to work in Wal-Marts. That’s horrible. These poor victims were sitting in college classrooms trying to better themselves when suddenly armed Wal-Mart managers kicked in the doors, rounded them up and chained them behind the registers forcing them to work 40 hours a week for minimum wage. The horror!!!

[/quote]

Great Post! This is capitalism people. You make your own decisions in life. You have the right to choose to NOT work or shop there.

Irish : i like walmart personally , i think its a good store for working class people because it has some good cheap food and hardlines. Not many stores these days cater specifically to working class people…target doesnt imo, costco wont ect And it also pays more than most of the grocery stores out there, i would rather get 8 bucks than minimum wage any day even though i would have to have a couple of jobs to live off that its still better… But you have a big point about the benefits. If the unions get more popular because of walmart more power to them… Im sure that walmart will eventually try to reach a comparable level of benefits to other retail stores so it wont look so cheap

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
You have exposed the basic contradiction and greatest lie of the Republican party here.[/quote]

And you have just demonstrated such a common and ridiculous remark - a stereotypical one. In politics, if one person says it, why is it always the view of the entire party they belong too?

[quote]malonetd said:
Wow, you sound ignorant. You’re right, let me quit my second job (if there is even a place left that Wal-Mart didn’t drive out where I can get a second job) and take a couple internet courses a year. I might be able to graduate in…what, 12 years?
[/quote]

Funny, I know people with two (even someone with three) jobs who are going to school. Sure it’s tough and it sucks, but they manage.

[quote]vroom said:
God forbid people get any more than the absolute fucking minimum of anything… it would just be fucking horrible if people could earn a few extra bucks and have a bit more comfort in their lives.
[/quote]

Why have a minnimum wage when people are just going to complain when people are getting paid twice that amount?

[quote]FightinIrish26 said:
LOL. No, its not the legal minimum. But trying living off it. See how well that goes. That doesn’t cover my car insurance in NJ.
[/quote]

Who says you need a car? Use public transporation, ride a bike. That says you insurance and a car payment a month. You’d be amazed at what ingenius things you can come up with when you have to.

[quote]malonetd said:
I think it would take more than ten minutes online to find much. Do you also realize how many high school seniors have never even been in a public library? Besides that, if I didn’t know there was help for college, why would I go looking?[/quote]

So really it’s the public school system that needs fixing, right? If children are pushed to grow and to learn then they’ll know where to look and won’t have any excuses, right?

I’ll agree that public school systems are a major problem in the US right now.

[quote]malonetd said:
No, it’s not the minimum, but it’s still hard to live off, and even harder to raise a family.

Also, Wal-Mart didn’t say that was the entry level wage, just the average. For all we know they start out at minimum wage and it takes years to reach that wage.[/quote]

Maybe we should make them work for $2 an hour and work for tips? Nah, that’d be cruel. And you’re right, it is hard to live off that wage, but it’s not impossible.

Want to know my opinion on having a family? I know it’s going to be real popular here:

Can’t feed 'em, don’t breed 'em.

Joker,

My point was not about minimum wage… it was about the philosophical issue of people being able to get ahead in life. There is a large difference between the two.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Joker,

My point was not about minimum wage… it was about the philosophical issue of people being able to get ahead in life. There is a large difference between the two.[/quote]

People are able to get ahead in this country like no other on the face of the earth. Why do you see so many folks coming over here? The opportunity for a better life. Why doe so many oriental-type folks end up owning their own businesses? Because this is a country where hard work and a refusal to settle pay off.

Just because Joe-Shithead is too lazy to get a second job, ar too lazy to go to school to improve his lot, does not mean that anyone is trying to keep him down.

Yes - I said too lazy to get a second job. If the best you can do is gathering carts in a Walmart parking lot, that is a lifestyle choice that is your own. I worked two jobs, went to grad-school, and still managed to do a decent job of feeding and clothing a wife and two kids. It was a lifestyle choice. I didn’t demand that the pizza place pay me more because I couldn’t make it on my own, nor did I demand that the computer company I worked for, concurrent with the pizza job, pay me a living wage.

Blaming society for the laziness of an individual is just stupid. Demanding that a business pay more than the market demands is extortion.

If I can do it - it’s not that fucking hard to do.

Rainjack,

What makes you think I feel otherwise about opportunity in North America? Perhaps you missed the comments by some that people “should” be kept down if they make some poor choices?

In the bigger picture, it costs us all if people don’t make it to higher tax brackets and become more of a contribution to the economy. We are better off if they do.

I don’t see what the hell you feel the need to bluster about…

[quote]vroom wrote:
God forbid people get any more than the absolute fucking minimum of anything… it would just be fucking horrible if people could earn a few extra bucks and have a bit more comfort in their lives.[/quote]

This tripe right here.

Comfort is a luxury - not an entitlement.

To reward the lazy and the ignorant like you suggest is pure stupidity, or - like all good liberals are want to do - the spending of other peoples’ money.

Life has no promises. No guarantees. Tou try and extort those from an employer is laziness of the highest order.

Irish, all of your posts on this topic seem to have the same theme “fuck the rich” (which was by the way a direct quote from you). I’ve yet to meet a succesfull, wealthy person who wasn’t eager to share with me his/her advice on their version of success.

It’s not what you do, it’s how you do it.

There’s plenty of highly educated people in this world with big degrees but have no clue how their shit is supposed to leave the house. Or don’t have a clue about the process required just to make the lights turn on. Guess what, these higly educated folks have to hire a qualified tradesman to do that job and damn do they charhe a premium. Why?, because they can!

Here’s the question, are you a plumber or do you own your own plumbing company? Do you work for XYZ electrical services, or is that company yours?

Some people are simply more talented than others. Is that their fault? Should they feel guilty? One of the biggest lies we hear is that all people are created equal. I say bullshit. We all deserve equal rights and protedtion under the law, but not all prople are created with the same talents or blessed with the same level of intellect. These very smart and talented people will most likely be more succesfull. But it’s not a gaurantee as it will probably still require hard work.

Which brings us to those individuals born into a shit ton of money. Is it fair? probably not. But who gives a fuck? Instead of bitching about someone else getting a better break in life, these people should concentrate on their situation and their battle plan for success. I’ve got a metabolism that moves just a hair faster than a snails pace. But you and I know that if I was to bitch about it here on T-Nation, I would get flamed. And rightly so. Just means I gotta work harder and that’s just the way it is. Excuses will get you nowhere real fast and people will most often put up their own roadblocks.

My point in this too long of a post is that life sometimes isn’t fair. Fuck fair. life has never given a fuck about fair and never will. Life gives a fuck about knowledge and hard work. Period.

You seem to be filled with alot of class hatred. Hatred clouds the mind my friend. I’ll take knowledge, hard work, and a shit ton of optimism every time over the alternatives.

Now since I’m a greedy capitalist, not content with the money I’m currently making, I’ve got to get ready for a home inspection this afternoon. Money kicks ass, especially when their giving it too me! =)

Great piece by Arnold Kling:

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=011606A

Liberals Should Know Better
By Arnold Kling

This is the first of a series of essays written for liberals by a libertarian/conservative. That is, I would like liberals to read it, knowing that you will be inclined to disagree.

Most of my friends are liberals. This series is the conversation I wish that I could have with them. I wish they would let me finish my train of thought before interrupting. I wish that they would consider my arguments, rather than try to bury them in rhetorical put-downs.

Chances are, you will look for some errors in my reasoning, so that you can dismiss everything that I have to say. All of us tend to read this way. We overlook flaws in the arguments of sympathetic writers, and we go all-out to find the flaws in arguments of others. In psychology, this double standard is known as confirmation bias ( confirmation bias - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com ). What it means is that we tend to seek support for what we already believe, rather than to seek out information that might undermine our beliefs. Confirmation bias helps to account for the persistence of disagreement.

When I say that “liberals should know better,” what I mean is that liberals are inclined to over-estimate some things and to under-estimate others. For example, in January of 2006, liberals in the state of Maryland rejoiced over passage of a law requiring Wal-Mart to pay higher health benefits to its workers. I think that they would have less smug satisfaction if they considered how this actually is likely to play out.

Although the motivation of the liberals was to raise the well-being of Wal-Mart workers, it is far from clear that this will be the consequence. Low-skilled workers cannot receive more in compensation than the value of their labor. If Wal-Mart is forced to increase the share of compensation that comes in the form of health benefits, then it will have to decrease take-home pay. If it cannot decrease take-home pay, then it will have to reduce its reliance on low-skilled labor or cut back on operations altogether.

The Wal-Mart law injects politics into the process of setting benefits for Wal-Mart workers. Once the Wal-Mart law takes hold, various suppliers of health care services will have an incentive to apply pressure. Dentists and optometrists will lobby for laws that force Wal-Mart to pay for its workers? dental care and eyeglasses.

The biggest beneficiaries of the Wal-Mart law are likely to be people who are better off than Wal-Mart workers. For example, owners of other businesses will be able to charge higher prices and earn higher profits.

In the liberal morality tale, Wal-Mart is a villain, and its workers are victims. However, Wal-Mart workers themselves feel lucky to be able to work there. What low-skilled workers need are more Wal-Marts. More Wal-Marts would increase employment for low-skilled workers, and ultimately this could drive up wages for such workers.

Maryland liberals believe that there is something wrong with free markets if Wal-Mart workers do not have enough health insurance. However, if Wal-Mart workers want health insurance badly enough, eventually the market will find a way to provide it. Ironically, one of the initiatives to try to reduce health care costs, which is the key to affordable health insurance, comes from Wal-Mart, which is experimenting with in-store clinics. If Wal-Mart is driven out of Maryland, the state will never be able to take advantage of its health care clinics.

In news reports on the Wal-Mart law ( http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/13/business/13walmart.html ), legislators were quoted as saying that one of their goals is to prevent Wal-Mart from taking advantage of the availability of Medicaid for its workers. A more straightforward approach would be to tighten the eligibility standards for Medicaid so that those making as much income as Wal-Mart provides its workers would be ineligible. Of course, such eligibility standards would apply to workers at other firms, not just the hated Wal-Mart.

The law requires Wal-Mart to spend 8 percent of its payroll on health care, whether or not this is enough to keep its workers from needing to rely on Medicaid. If Wal-Mart came up with a way to provide outstanding health care to its workers for 6 percent of its payroll, it would be in violation of the law unless it found a way to waste the other 2 percent on unnecessary health care. Conversely, if Wal-Mart offers a really lousy health plan, it would be in compliance with the law as long as it spent 8 percent.

If the Wal-Mart law is for the benefit of Wal-Mart workers, then why is it that they are not the ones rejoicing over its passage? Why does the law specify a spending percentage, which would seem to be of greater interest to Wal-Mart’s competitors? Why did the pressure for the law come from people who do not work at Wal-Mart?

Liberals see the market as an arena in which evil corporations inflict their greed on innocent victims. I wish you would see that motives matter less than consequences. I wish you could see that greed is at work when laws are passed that regulate markets, because regulations always produce winners and losers. I wish you could see that those winners and losers are often not who you think they are. I wish you could see that competitive behavior and free choice are forces that operate in the market as a check against greed. Finally, I wish you could see that greed is most difficult to restrain when it is exercised through the medium of government.

Arnold Kling is author of Learning Economics ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1413460267/104-9456754-9726320?v=glance&n=283155 ).

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Irish, all of your posts on this topic seem to have the same theme “fuck the rich” (which was by the way a direct quote from you). I’ve yet to meet a succesfull, wealthy person who wasn’t eager to share with me his/her advice on their version of success.

It’s not what you do, it’s how you do it.

There’s plenty of highly educated people in this world with big degrees but have no clue how their shit is supposed to leave the house. Or don’t have a clue about the process required just to make the lights turn on. Guess what, these higly educated folks have to hire a qualified tradesman to do that job and damn do they charhe a premium. Why?, because they can!

Here’s the question, are you a plumber or do you own your own plumbing company? Do you work for XYZ electrical services, or is that company yours?

Some people are simply more talented than others. Is that their fault? Should they feel guilty? One of the biggest lies we hear is that all people are created equal. I say bullshit. We all deserve equal rights and protedtion under the law, but not all prople are created with the same talents or blessed with the same level of intellect. These very smart and talented people will most likely be more succesfull. But it’s not a gaurantee as it will probably still require hard work.

Which brings us to those individuals born into a shit ton of money. Is it fair? probably not. But who gives a fuck? Instead of bitching about someone else getting a better break in life, these people should concentrate on their situation and their battle plan for success. I’ve got a metabolism that moves just a hair faster than a snails pace. But you and I know that if I was to bitch about it here on T-Nation, I would get flamed. And rightly so. Just means I gotta work harder and that’s just the way it is. Excuses will get you nowhere real fast and people will most often put up their own roadblocks.

My point in this too long of a post is that life sometimes isn’t fair. Fuck fair. life has never given a fuck about fair and never will. Life gives a fuck about knowledge and hard work. Period.

You seem to be filled with alot of class hatred. Hatred clouds the mind my friend. I’ll take knowledge, hard work, and a shit ton of optimism every time over the alternatives.

Now since I’m a greedy capitalist, not content with the money I’m currently making, I’ve got to get ready for a home inspection this afternoon. Money kicks ass, especially when their giving it too me! =)[/quote]

I don’t disagree with all of capitalism. Small businesses, like the ones you are describing, are what keeps people living and working. I have no problems with this…I work for one. Even though I don’t agree with how the guy runs his business, I’ve learned enough that I could open my own if I had some capital to do it with (should that be my goal).

My great qualm with the massive corporations, such as Wal-Mart, is that 1) They make enough money to provide care for their workers. Maybe you don’t think this is imporant, or that they should have to. That’s fine. But in the same way that they should be, say, environmentally concious, they should be responsible for caring, just a little, about their workers. They don’t. That’s fine. But the government, in my opinion, has the right to tell the largest retailer in the country that they have to provide better health care for their workers. If you don’t think they have the right to do so, again, fine. But my argument is not irrational.

However, my second qualm with the massive corporations is the undue influence that they all have on government workings, ranging on everything from worker’s rights, to the environment, to even how the government writes their dietary guidelines. This country is supposed to be run by the people, not by the people at the very top of the economic pyramid. If you are ok with that, then fine. But I am not.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Individuals have a right to form a union for the purpose of negotiating with ownership/management. I will not shop at Wal-mart because they truly are anti-union.

This may sound odd coming from a ‘conservative’ but freedom extends to all, not just those for whom we find it to be convenient. I personally despise any one/company that seeks to prevent employees from forming a union.

Wasn’t expecting that one.

I thought you were very anti-union. How does that fit in with indivdualism or objectivism? [/quote]

In the Objectivist ethics, the right to associate with others VOLUNTARILY is of paramount importance. Just as an employee is free to work for a company (and the company free to employ them), each must be able to associate with others with a similar purpose, such as forming a union. Objectivism rejects compulsion of every form, except as self-defense.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

Some people are simply more talented than others. Is that their fault? Should they feel guilty? One of the biggest lies we hear is that all people are created equal. I say bullshit. We all deserve equal rights and protedtion under the law, but not all prople are created with the same talents or blessed with the same level of intellect. These very smart and talented people will most likely be more succesfull. But it’s not a gaurantee as it will probably still require hard work.
[/quote]

I agree with this (some animals are more equal than others).

However, if they are not created equally, then why should they be treated the same under the law? This is just a quesiton I have for anybody, being as I’m always interested in the answers.

Also, the proportion of people at the top is very small compared to people at the bottom. If you figure that people’s intellects, or maybe the combination of the intellects, their innate abilities, etc. fits inside a bell curve on a graph, then that leaves a gigantic mass of people right in the middle.

If 90% of the wealth is in the hands of the top 10% of the bell curve, doesn’t the middle become the bottom? It can’t be the middle anymore, because the numbers don’t work out.

So a tiny percentage of the people will shoot up to become rich, whether by their own good minds or whether they were born into it. These 10% control all the wealth, and therefore, the political power that goes with money. So these 10% are not sitting at the top, feeling happy. Like people do, they are trying to get more. So they influence the government to get them more, regardless of who it affects. These 10% are not “rich”, they are far beyond that, to the point where their power has very few bounds. Why would you rather have them controlling your government, when it says plainly that it is supposed to be “Of the People”, not “Of the chosen few”. Is the American hierarchy so much different from all those in the history of the world, as to where they will not take advantage of whatever they can in order to benfit themeselves?

Now, if you add in a whole bunch of racism, a good amount of sexism, and a history of infamous opposition to anything remotely resembling “leftist”, you have the American system, where it seems that anyone can “make it rich”…but few actually do.

To use your lifting analogy…its hard to deadlift when they cut a leg off right after you’re born.

[quote]Comfort is a luxury - not an entitlement.

To reward the lazy and the ignorant like you suggest is pure stupidity, or - like all good liberals are want to do - the spending of other peoples’ money.

Life has no promises. No guarantees. Tou try and extort those from an employer is laziness of the highest order.[/quote]

Rainjack,

As is usual, you miss the point completely and make up your own.

I was not in any way talking about rewarding people for any failings of theirs. Nor was I talking about extorting an employer.

P.S. Look up wont… and I’m not talking about won’t.

Then explain yourself. Who is responsible for providing this comfort you speek of.

Words have meaning. You can’t post shit like this, obviously from a position of complete ignorance, and then tell me I am making shit up. Clarify your ramblings. I believe my point is very clear, regardless of the misspelling of one word.

I’ll wait to see how you squirm out of this.