I’m trying to determine what the current scientific research would suggest is the “ultimate” post workout shake for pure mass building, if cost is no object?
Essentially, I’m looking for the optimal sources and ideal ratios of ingredients. I’m willing to pay the price, and also I’m willing to mix it myself. I’m not looking for a pre-made shake… if it even exists.
So it comes down to…
Protein: What form of whey? (Isolate, hydrolyzed, etc) How much? Do we need to mix in a ratio of other protein, such as egg or hydrolyzed casein?
Carbs: What type, and how much? Common suggestions are dextrose, maltodextrin, waxy maize, or Gatorade mix.
Fats: Do we need any fat during post workout? If so, what type?
Amino Acids: Current research suggests adding BCAAs. What about other specific amino acids, or leucine?
Creatne and/or Glutamine: What is the consensus on type and amounts of creatine to use? Is any Glutamine effective? What about glutamine peptides? The last word I heard was that oral glutamine was ineffective.
Other ingredients: Should we be adding any certain vitamins, enyzmes, peptides, or anything unusual that most people haven’t thought of yet?
Here’s something from Borge Fagerli’s ‘The Biorhythm Diet’ which is all based on the current research. Some of you may know Borge as Blade_MyR who used to post here on T-Nation.
Pre-workout: 10g BCAAs or 20g EAAs with 5-20g carbs (experiment) to fuel the workout. If your workout is particularly long and hard, sip on a dilute carb drink providing an isotonic 30g of carbs per 16oz of fluid per 30-60mins.
Post-workout, a combination of a slow and fast protein source such as whey and casein is better than a fast protein source only, but some BCAA and whey immediately post-workout followed by a meal within an hour is a great option. You don?t need to rush carb intake at this point, and I suggest you limit intake to 30-50g per meal ? but allow more carbs for really long-duration and glycolytic training. In a fat loss phase, you may actually forego carbs altogether at this point, or limit intake to 10-20g.
"I think we can slightly modify the solution to at least include some protein and fat meals pre-workout, and instead of a highly insulinogenic pre-workout meal of a whopping 153 g of high GI carbs, why not go with something more reasonable. It only takes 5-10g of glucose to get blood glucose into a range where performance should be improved, and if you combine it with some fructose (fruits, anyone?) you will also keep liver glycogen topped off (liver glycogen status is also important in anabolic signaling). My theory is that as long as you keep carbs equal to or slightly lower than protein, you should be fine. I will say that keeping carbs minimal does seem to give better mental clarity and wakefulness after a short adaption period, but this is highly individual.
“So how about post-workout - shouldn?t we chug 200 grams of waxy maize as soon as the last rep is done, to refill glycogen stores as quickly as possible and get hyooge? No, not necessarily. If you have more than 8 hours until the next training bout, speed is irrelevant to total carbs ingested. Also, I?m going to argue that slightly delaying complete glycogen (super)compensation will maintain a higher insulin sensitivity, i.e. insulin can do its job at shuttling nutrients into the muscle more efficiently if it?s not completely full. Insulin is really more of an anti-catabolic and permissive hormone for muscle growth, it?s the amino acids (leucine in particular) which are key to stimulating protein synthesis. In fact, it only takes 15-30mU/L of insulin to maximize net protein balance, and this is easily achieved from a dose of only 40g of whey protein, not even requiring carbs.
Noted scientists Kevin D. Tipton specializing in amino acid and protein research has mentioned in a paper I just can?t seem to dig up right now, that a cell-full phenomena which would happen if you supercompensated glycogen stores decreases amino acid uptake and increases oxidation (it is burned off as energy instead of used for growth). Hence, keeping a slight nutrient deficit by prioritizing protein intake and saving up carbs for later seems like an even more interesting thought, doesn?t it?”
[quote]landmonster wrote:
You’re just gonna push a shitload of Biotest supplements? Really?[/quote]
I take Biotest shake Metabolic Drive. What do you take? I also take 5 grams of creatine a day. They say if you take more than that it makes the risk of injury more.
about half in I think there is a rundown on protein sources, as well as loads of other good information. long story short he recommends hydrolyzed protein
I use Dark Matter first thing after a workout then for protein/calories I use this:
16 oz milk
2 scoops ON whey
1 or 2 scoops peanut butter
little bit of honey
either 1 pack of oats or 3 scoops of CytoCarb
[quote]landmonster wrote:
… the “ultimate” post workout shake for pure mass building, if cost is no object? [/quote]
Indigo, creatine, and Plazma before training, Plazma during, MAG-10 after, then a tray full of Chipotle’s carnitas tacos after that.
For “pure mass building”, a post workout shake is only one piece of the puzzle.
What could I add or change on this mix to make it even superior?[/quote]
How long have you been using this stack and what results (strength/bodyweight changes) have you seen?
I’d drop the creatine to 5g, swap the BCAAs for leucine, and swap the whey for casein hydrolysate.
[quote]BigRedMachine87 wrote:
I also take 5 grams of creatine a day. They say if you take more than that it makes the risk of injury more.[/quote]
Shirley, you can’t be serious.
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Here’s something from Borge Fagerli’s ‘The Biorhythm Diet’ which is all based on the current research. Some of you may know Borge as Blade_MyR who used to post here on T-Nation.
Pre-workout: 10g BCAAs or 20g EAAs with 5-20g carbs (experiment) to fuel the workout. If your workout is particularly long and hard, sip on a dilute carb drink providing an isotonic 30g of carbs per 16oz of fluid per 30-60mins.
Post-workout, a combination of a slow and fast protein source such as whey and casein is better than a fast protein source only, but some BCAA and whey immediately post-workout followed by a meal within an hour is a great option. You don?t need to rush carb intake at this point, and I suggest you limit intake to 30-50g per meal ? but allow more carbs for really long-duration and glycolytic training. In a fat loss phase, you may actually forego carbs altogether at this point, or limit intake to 10-20g.[/quote]
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Here’s something from Borge Fagerli’s ‘The Biorhythm Diet’ which is all based on the current research. Some of you may know Borge as Blade_MyR who used to post here on T-Nation.
Pre-workout: 10g BCAAs or 20g EAAs with 5-20g carbs (experiment) to fuel the workout. If your workout is particularly long and hard, sip on a dilute carb drink providing an isotonic 30g of carbs per 16oz of fluid per 30-60mins.
Post-workout, a combination of a slow and fast protein source such as whey and casein is better than a fast protein source only, but some BCAA and whey immediately post-workout followed by a meal within an hour is a great option. You don?t need to rush carb intake at this point, and I suggest you limit intake to 30-50g per meal ? but allow more carbs for really long-duration and glycolytic training. In a fat loss phase, you may actually forego carbs altogether at this point, or limit intake to 10-20g.[/quote]
thank you this is the information I’ve been looking for
hi guys, what would you suggest post workout if i can’t afford buying some whey protein? whey protein really costs much here in our place. are amino acids enough or i just have to quit training considering that ill be losing much muscle mass since i dont have ample recovery drink.
[quote]starofdavid5 wrote:
hi guys, what would you suggest post workout if i can’t afford buying some whey protein? whey protein really costs much here in our place. are amino acids enough or i just have to quit training considering that ill be losing much muscle mass since i dont have ample recovery drink.
appreciate your inputs guys…[/quote]
I dunno how true this is but I’ve heard luecine/bcaas is all you really need.
I don’t thin I’m brave enough to do that though.
I’ll tell you what though, food works and there is nothing wrong with it.
Just have some whole eggs and some extra egg whites and maybe a small portion of chicken breast, stuff like that, then shortly after have a full meal
[quote]BigRedMachine87 wrote:
I also take 5 grams of creatine a day. They say if you take more than that it makes the risk of injury more.[/quote]
Shirley, you can’t be serious.[/quote]
BigRed has never made an intelligent post on this site. Ever.
OP, do you have something against the Biotest products listed? I’ve had great results with them (at least the ones I’ve tried.). I had really good results 2 ways. 1 - Surge Workout Fuel pre/during, and Surge Recovery after. It was a good combination for me. 2 - Just MAG-10 pre/during/post workout. Total of about 5 scoops. Creatine also. The MAG-10 thing is what I’m doing now. I would try Plazma, but it’s out of my own budget at the moment, the 4-pack of MAG-10 is a good deal. I also eat a big meal within an hour after workout.
