[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
Japanese and Apocalyptic cults are about the worst mix you could possible make.
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Wow. We actually agree on something.
head explodes[/quote]
Well that’s the nature of ‘identity’ groups, they serve to divide us. ;D
It’s ironic you can so easily indict Aum as this, but not it happening by various degrees of intensity in all other religious groups.
At the end of the day, I do not ally with anyone of them, nor base my identity in them.
SO BTW, what sort of business do you run in Japan Christian Samurai? Also, are you Latino, with a name like Cortes, what’s your background? You seem like an interesting guy despite our differences.
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
Japanese and Apocalyptic cults are about the worst mix you could possible make.
[/quote]
Wow. We actually agree on something.
head explodes[/quote]
Well that’s the nature of ‘identity’ groups, they serve to divide us. ;D
It’s ironic you can so easily indict Aum as this, but not it happening by various degrees of intensity in all other religious groups.
At the end of the day, I do not ally with anyone of them, nor base my identity in them.
SO BTW, what sort of business do you run in Japan Christian Samurai? Also, are you Latino, with a name like Cortes, what’s your background? You seem like an interesting guy despite our differences.[/quote]
I appreciate the kind words, Lordless Samurai.
I own an English school for kids. Little bitty guys as young as 2 up to high school graduates. It’s an after-school extra-curricular private business equivalent to the piano or violin lessons that American kids take (but a lot more fun).
Not at all Latino in blood, pure whitebread Texan, but you might be surprised to learn that I harbor a deep love for my Latino brothers and sisters, guey. I grew up in various border towns and I was a fluent speaker of tex-mex before I left 9 years ago. Unfortunately I stumble and bumble through the language now until I’ve had a few days back immersed in it (took me three days in Mexico D.F. on my honeymoon to go from nearly zero back to around 75% conversational fluency, which surprised the hell out of me!).
I admire Hernan Cortes and always have for many complex reasons. He was a grand, flawed, giant of a man. I took his name as my screen name not out of a particular love for him,though, necessarily, but as a sort of representative figure of the America that I grew up in and love (certainly some would take offense, I mean none and don’t care if they do).
Strange that this conversation would bring the thread back on topic, but I have always had mixed feelings about the Latinos who come to Texas. I have never, ever felt any animosity toward my brothers and sisters in the south, as I grew up literally the only white kid in my class until I moved up to the Dallas area in the 5th grade, and worked closely with men and women who spoke almost no English for many years after that. The people I worked with were THE hardest working, most selfless, real people I have ever known anywhere (that includes the Japanese, who are probably a VERY close second for title of world’s hardest workers).
Whenever the illegal alien threads come up you’ll notice my conspicuous absence. That’s because I just can’t bring myself to say anything too harsh about a people who have earned my most profound respect.
But I do think, if they want to live here and receive the benefits reserved for citizens, they should at least attempt to learn to speak the language of the fathers of our nation. The language of The Declaration of Independence. Of The Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787. Of our courts and laws. Of the Bill of Rights. The language of The Constitution of the United States of America.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
But I do think, if they want to live here and receive the benefits reserved for citizens, they should at least attempt to learn to speak the language of the fathers of our nation. The language of The Declaration of Independence. Of The Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787. Of our courts and laws. Of the Bill of Rights. The language of The Constitution of the United States of America.
[/quote]
I tend to agree. Linguistic fluency is necessary to become a citizen, as for the menial laborers; I don’t worry too much about it. They don’t plan on staying.
Some thoughts on the subject, not necessarily directed at you.
I think the USA is the predominant language of the USA, as Russian was in the Soviet Union. While there were some notably ghastly exceptions, the language policy of the Soviet Union is a model the USA should work from in addressing these linguistic issues that derive from our ethnocultural fault lines.
To define that system; it is one that uses a series of standardized tests for all relevant school subjects. Graduation requires the ability to pass an exit exam. These tests are administered in Russian, and the exit exam has a test of Russian fluency. Although, I believe these tests have linguistic alternatives in the main non-Russian languages in Russia such as Tatar, but not all.
At the same time, the government encourages and enables ethnocultural autonomy within the constituent republics insofar as it does not impede their ability to cooperate with the rest of the federation. They even provide funding for alternative schools where bilingual education takes place.
It is a sad state of affairs when the Russians are seemingly less bigoted and more accepting than the Americans.
I have read alot about the situation of the Spanish language in the USA, during the course of writing a 25 page research paper on the subject. My conclusions are that we must aim have a lingua franca, which at least for now, would be English. However, the general Anglo-Saxon Right-Wing view that Spanish’s mere existence in the USA is an affront to her national character will be the undoing of this nation.
Our language and culture was the first European one here, and will continue to last far into the future. With the Latinos who don’t speak English, let it be ~ they only deprive themselves. Language fluency is the pre-requisite to economic empowerment and higher education in this nation.
Yes. As I’ve read about the Texas Revolution itself, I came to know what a multicultural effort it actually was. The Republic of Texas was not fought and won for Anglo-Saxons by Anglo-Saxon. Of the men who voiced opinion and reason to take arms against Mexico were large German speakers, Francophones, American expats and many many Latinos who all came to be known as Texians (now called Texans). Really an interesting chapter of history.
I have read alot about the situation of the Spanish language in the USA, during the course of writing a 25 page research paper on the subject. My conclusions are that we must aim have a lingua franca, which at least for now, would be English. However, the general Anglo-Saxon Right-Wing view that Spanish’s mere existence in the USA is an affront to her national character will be the undoing of this nation.
Our language and culture was the first European one here, and will continue to last far into the future. With the Latinos who don’t speak English, let it be ~ they only deprive themselves. Language fluency is the pre-requisite to economic empowerment and higher education in this nation.
[/quote]
My take on this is actually similar. As should be unsurprising, given my history and education, I sincerely wish that American were more internationally minded, that it wasn’t the exception rather than the norm for 2nd and especially 3rd and beyond generation Americans to speak at least one more language than English fluently. I think the US would benefit massively from a significant increase in the portion of its citizenry that can speak multiple languages. The primary benefit of multilinguism is, in my opinion, that it promotes cross-cultural empathy and cooperation.
Of course, this is the same reason that I think it is vitally important for immigrants to become fluent in the dominant language of their host country. They need to understand the people in whose house they act as guests or invited roommates, and the natives of the country need to be able to communicate with them to be able to empathize with them. Because it is impractical to require all Americans to become fluent in a number of different languages (for example where I was living, in addition to Spanish, I would have had to learn Vietnamese, Arabian, Hindi, and maybe Chinese and Korean), it must first be incumbent upon the guests to learn the dominant language of their host country.
[quote]
Yes. As I’ve read about the Texas Revolution itself, I came to know what a multicultural effort it actually was. The Republic of Texas was not fought and won for Anglo-Saxons by Anglo-Saxon. Of the men who voiced opinion and reason to take arms against Mexico were large German speakers, Francophones, American expats and many many Latinos who all came to be known as Texians (now called Texans). Really an interesting chapter of history.[/quote]
It certainly is. I have heard it said that the dynamic between typical Texans and Mexican immigrants is much more friendly in that state than in others, particularly CA. Although I have of course witnessed plenty of xenophobia and racism in the 26 years I lived in TX, for the most part most of my perception of this relationship here has been one of friendly tolerance. Most of the jobs Mexicans work are seriously not jobs most Texans want to do, but that need to get done. And a Mexican immigrant will wash your dishes, cook your food, dig your ditches, lay down your water sprinkler pipe, cut your yard, build your house, and do all manner of hard-assed work, often under the intense Texas summer sun, competently, reliably, for longer, for less pay, will not complain about it, will appreciate the opportunity to do it, and will, most importantly, actually take a pride in his work that has been sadly mostly lost by American citizens. That pride in our work that used to be one of our defining American traits. If you ever think it’s gone, go hire one of the guys standing on the street corner at 7am hoping to be picked up for a days work and take him to landscape your house. I promise you, it still exists, today, in the most unlikely of places.
*Edited for typos. Also intended to quote a different portion of the top text.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
It certainly is. I have heard it said that the dynamic between typical Texans and Mexican immigrants is much more friendly in that state than in others, particularly CA. Although I have of course witnessed plenty of xenophobia and racism in the 26 years I lived in TX, for the most part most of my perception of this relationship here has been one of friendly tolerance. Most of the jobs Mexicans wore are seriously not jobs most Texans want to do, but that need to get done. And a Mexican immigrant will wash your dishes, cook your food, dig your ditches, lay down your water sprinkler pipe, cut your yard, build your house, and do all manner of hard-assed work, often under the intense Texas summer sun, competently, reliably, for longer, for less pay, will not complain about it, will appreciate the opportunity to do it, and will, most importantly, actually take a pride in his work that has been sadly mostly lost by American citizens. That pride in our work that used to be one of our defining American traits? If you ever think it’s gone, go hire one of the guys standing on the street corner at 7am hoping to be picked up for a days work and take him to landscape your house. I promise you, it is still exists, today, in the most ironic of places.
[/quote]
I’ve never been to Texas but from what I understand from people whose origin lies in the Southwest…isn’t the line between Latino and Anglo very blurred at many points?
Isn’t there a huge portion of even the ‘redneck’ Texas population that is of varying Tejano origin with a wide cultural and linguistic gradient among them? Some leaning towards Latino and others to Anglo, with a grand distribution dead center?
I imagine it is quite common to meet Aryan looking country boys who considered themselves red-blooded Americans yet carry Spanish surnames. As well as it is common to find Chicanos who preserve their native language, and culture yet may have English or German surnames…
Is this true?
This is what my buddy from Texas told me at least.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
It certainly is. I have heard it said that the dynamic between typical Texans and Mexican immigrants is much more friendly in that state than in others, particularly CA. Although I have of course witnessed plenty of xenophobia and racism in the 26 years I lived in TX, for the most part most of my perception of this relationship here has been one of friendly tolerance. Most of the jobs Mexicans wore are seriously not jobs most Texans want to do, but that need to get done. And a Mexican immigrant will wash your dishes, cook your food, dig your ditches, lay down your water sprinkler pipe, cut your yard, build your house, and do all manner of hard-assed work, often under the intense Texas summer sun, competently, reliably, for longer, for less pay, will not complain about it, will appreciate the opportunity to do it, and will, most importantly, actually take a pride in his work that has been sadly mostly lost by American citizens. That pride in our work that used to be one of our defining American traits? If you ever think it’s gone, go hire one of the guys standing on the street corner at 7am hoping to be picked up for a days work and take him to landscape your house. I promise you, it is still exists, today, in the most ironic of places.
[/quote]
I’ve never been to Texas but from what I understand from people whose origin lies in the Southwest…isn’t the line between Latino and Anglo very blurred at many points?
Isn’t there a huge portion of even the ‘redneck’ Texas population that is of varying Tejano origin with a wide cultural and linguistic gradient among them? Some leaning towards Latino and others to Anglo, with a grand distribution dead center?
I imagine it is quite common to meet Aryan looking country boys who considered themselves red-blooded Americans with Spanish surnames. As well as it is common to find Chicanos who preserve their native language, and culture yet may have English or German surnames?
This is what my buddy from Texas told me at least. [/quote]
This is true. But there is still a pretty clear distinction between self-defined racial and cultural groups, as well.
One example, my best friend’s father was Mexican, his mother Irish stock white. He never met his real father, though, and was raised by a white male, and never considered himself even Latino until far later in life. And now, even though he calls himself Latino, he doesn’t even really mean it and usually uses it to fuck with people because he doesn’t look stereotypically Latino (he looks like a better looking John Mayer, some say, which he doesn’t like but I find fairly accurate).
