U.S. Being Invaded Slowly from the South

Off Topic Politics, World Issues
21

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]benchaffleck wrote:
I live in Miami. It’s a given that a good percentage of the population won’t speak English. Even the people who’ve already lived here for 10+ years don’t speak English, In fact they refuse to learn English, and will give you dirty looks if don’t speak Spanish. They will say: “This is Miami, why don’t you speak Spanish?” The worst part is, I’ve been working in Broward county(ft. Lauderdale) for 10 years, and everyone here used to speak English, but not anymore. Where I work, people walk in all the time and ask me if I speak spanish, and when I say no they walk out. In Miami, you won’t get a job unless you speak Spanish. When you go back a month later and see who they hired, it’s a Cuban kid who looks like a gang member, and would rather talk to his girlfriend on his iphone than help a customer.
I grew up in New Jersey, and when I went back I was appalled by the number of migrant workers hanging out all over the streets. It looked like friggin East L.A.
Not too long ago I had a Colombian woman asked me to marry her for her green card, and I refused. I already know a few psychotic Latin women who’ve screwed-over horny gringos who thought they were in love. In their country the only way to get ahead is to seduce a rich man with her big fake tits and ass.
The Hispanics in Miami also drive like retards, and 1/3 of the population is uninsured. They love to tailgate you, while blasting reggeaton music and smelling up the place with their oil-burning coffee can exhaust pipes. I’ve already had a hispanic woman plow into my car by blowing a stop sign, then getting out of her car shouting in Spanish like it was my fault for being in her way.
In closing, if this is the future of America, we are all fucked. These people like to run insurance scams, which affect us all, and in south Florida medicare fraud is highest in the nation, and guess who has a big hand in that? [/quote]

You’re just mad because you can’t speak Spanish, marry a Senorita, or get a job. It’s okay, not everyone has style. [/quote]
No joke this crybaby must be at SUCH a disadvantage in city full of people who supposedly can’t speak English. I wonder if he might have a competetive edge on job opportunities, I WONDER. You’re so opprssed with your knowledge of the dominant language of business among a bunch of people who supposedly can’t even conjugate a sentence in it.

Maybe move to Fort Lauderdale homes?

22

I think some of our regular posters are being willfully ignorant or disingenuous here. The refusal to assimilate is a massive problem (for examples, start with the western edge of France and then move up to a thousand miles anywhere north or east of that point), and a large subset of the population refusing to learn the de facto national language is a clear symptom of this deeper problem.

You know what they say, though, when life gives you lemons, trade em for limes and make mojitos. Look at it this way: No one in that area speaks English? Learn to speak Spanish. Then, start a business and use your superior advantage to profit in an area where your unique skill is bound to be in demand. There are about a million different services that a native speaker of English who can also communicate with the local population is able to offer and charge a premium for.

I’m getting rich doing exactly that.

23

[quote]Cortes wrote:
I think some of our regular posters are being willfully ignorant or disingenuous here. The refusal to assimilate is a massive problem (for examples, start with the western edge of France and then move up to a thousand miles anywhere north or east of that point), and a large subset of the population refusing to learn the de facto national language is a clear symptom of this deeper problem.

You know what they say, though, when life gives you lemons, trade em for limes and make mojitos. Look at it this way: No one in that area speaks English? Learn to speak Spanish. Then, start a business and use your superior advantage to profit in an area where your unique skill is bound to be in demand. There are about a million different services that a native speaker of English who can also communicate with the local population is able to offer and charge a premium for.

I’m getting rich doing exactly that. [/quote]
Cortes - What do you do in Japan?

The situation in Europe is different, first off because they take on former colonial subjects and think they would like to assimilate. Furhter France has a national language, the USA does not.

24

I don’t understand the medicine being one-sided. Seems people have no problem telling someone “that’s the way it is, you should learn Spanish” etc, etc. Why not so strong in the reverse?
I have a huge problem with a guest or an immigrant that refuses to adapt to place where opportunity is for them to better themselves.
The US is just too damn accommodating.

As far as the argument about used to be, why is there no discussion of the Aztec and Mayan languages being preserved in Mexico?

If only the guests would be appreciative.

25

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I don’t understand the medicine being one-sided. Seems people have no problem telling someone “that’s the way it is, you should learn Spanish” etc, etc. Why not so strong in the reverse?
I have a huge problem with a guest or an immigrant that refuses to adapt to place where opportunity is for them to better themselves.
The US is just too damn accommodating.

As far as the argument about used to be, why is there no discussion of the Aztec and Mayan languages being preserved in Mexico?

If only the guests would be appreciative. [/quote]

  1. Because that is the way it is already. You already take taxes from conquered people in the Southwest and make them go to schoolos where they must learn their conqueror’s language.

  2. If you were brought in as even a LEGAL guest worker, and you worked 65 hours a week in an all Spanish speaking environment. Do you think anyone has the time to learn English? I think many of them would really like to, I teach ESL, and most of them say they just don’t have the time.

  3. Further, do you think the company wnats them to learn English? They work their longer and harder because of their lack of opportunities, they are also far easier to control because it is that much more difficult for them to get involved in the labor unions due language barrier.

  4. Do you want them stay? I mean if you want them stay by all means, most of people can’t justify using their limited free time for learning English when their career path is menial laborer anyways and they don’t even grammatical dominance over their native tongue. At the end of the day they want to go back to their homecountry and open a business ~ not permanently reside and compete with you for your American jobs.

  5. Aztec and Maya are PRESERVED and are OFFICIAL languages in Mexico dummy. Mixteca the language of the original inhabitants of Mexico City (Tenochtitlan) is a co-official languages.
    Way to fail.

26

I think that Spanish is the de facto official language of Mexico (Mexico has no official language), and the indigenous languages are considered national languages and equal to Spanish.

(I spent about a year traveling in Mexico and Central America, hence my interest in the subject.)

27

[quote]Christine wrote:

[quote]IPB wrote:

[quote]Christine wrote:

[quote]IPB wrote:
I think our issue with immigrants, beyond the illegals, is the fact that they no longer want to be American. They just want all the perks.

When my family immigrated to America it was for a better life and to live the American dream, guess what they leaned to speak English and assimilated into the society. When I was growing up my parents wouldn’t even teach me to speak French because and I quote “this is America you speak English, don’t worry about speaking French”.

[/quote]

Too bad. You missed the chance to grow up bi-lingual.[/quote]
True, but for them it didn’t matter, being American did. I even tried to take it in High School and they wouldn’t let me. They wisely told me to take Spanish :wink:
[/quote]

If you had learned French from a young age, learning Spanish would have been much easier for you. Very short-sighted on their part.

You missed the chance to be tri-lingual.[/quote]

tri-lingual - English, Spanish, French

no effort to get pussy in high school

his parents figuratively fucked him

hope they at least bought him dinner first

lol

28

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I don’t understand the medicine being one-sided. Seems people have no problem telling someone “that’s the way it is, you should learn Spanish” etc, etc. Why not so strong in the reverse?
I have a huge problem with a guest or an immigrant that refuses to adapt to place where opportunity is for them to better themselves.
The US is just too damn accommodating.

As far as the argument about used to be, why is there no discussion of the Aztec and Mayan languages being preserved in Mexico?

If only the guests would be appreciative. [/quote]

  1. Because that is the way it is already. You already take taxes from conquered people in the Southwest and make them go to schoolos where they must learn their conqueror’s language.

  2. If you were brought in as even a LEGAL guest worker, and you worked 65 hours a week in an all Spanish speaking environment. Do you think anyone has the time to learn English? I think many of them would really like to, I teach ESL, and most of them say they just don’t have the time.

  3. Further, do you think the company wnats them to learn English? They work their longer and harder because of their lack of opportunities, they are also far easier to control because it is that much more difficult for them to get involved in the labor unions due language barrier.

  4. Do you want them stay? I mean if you want them stay by all means, most of people can’t justify using their limited free time for learning English when their career path is menial laborer anyways and they don’t even grammatical dominance over their native tongue. At the end of the day they want to go back to their homecountry and open a business ~ not permanently reside and compete with you for your American jobs.

  5. Aztec and Maya are PRESERVED and are OFFICIAL languages in Mexico dummy. Mixteca the language of the original inhabitants of Mexico City (Tenochtitlan) is a co-official languages.
    Way to fail.
    [/quote]
    Thank you for making it personal. It says quite a bit.
    Yes I want immigration. It is how a nation is built. I would love to see the immigration process simplified, as long as it is not bought.
    When a person becomes a citizen, however, should their oath be honored?
    I believe it should.
    I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.

29

jp, I understand what you are saying.
Yes, it would be nice if people would just honor their oath.

But they don’t, like with thousand different things (cheating, stealing etc). And sometimes that’s even understandable.

Setting a good example here might include honoring your oaths, but it doesn’t include not learning spanish just make a point.

30

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I don’t understand the medicine being one-sided. Seems people have no problem telling someone “that’s the way it is, you should learn Spanish” etc, etc. Why not so strong in the reverse?
I have a huge problem with a guest or an immigrant that refuses to adapt to place where opportunity is for them to better themselves.
The US is just too damn accommodating.

As far as the argument about used to be, why is there no discussion of the Aztec and Mayan languages being preserved in Mexico?

If only the guests would be appreciative. [/quote]

  1. Because that is the way it is already. You already take taxes from conquered people in the Southwest and make them go to schoolos where they must learn their conqueror’s language.

  2. If you were brought in as even a LEGAL guest worker, and you worked 65 hours a week in an all Spanish speaking environment. Do you think anyone has the time to learn English? I think many of them would really like to, I teach ESL, and most of them say they just don’t have the time.

  3. Further, do you think the company wnats them to learn English? They work their longer and harder because of their lack of opportunities, they are also far easier to control because it is that much more difficult for them to get involved in the labor unions due language barrier.

  4. Do you want them stay? I mean if you want them stay by all means, most of people can’t justify using their limited free time for learning English when their career path is menial laborer anyways and they don’t even grammatical dominance over their native tongue. At the end of the day they want to go back to their homecountry and open a business ~ not permanently reside and compete with you for your American jobs.

  5. Aztec and Maya are PRESERVED and are OFFICIAL languages in Mexico dummy. Mixteca the language of the original inhabitants of Mexico City (Tenochtitlan) is a co-official languages.
    Way to fail.
    [/quote]
    Thank you for making it personal. It says quite a bit.
    Yes I want immigration. It is how a nation is built. I would love to see the immigration process simplified, as long as it is not bought.
    When a person becomes a citizen, however, should their oath be honored?
    I believe it should.
    I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.
    [/quote]

So we’re alienating the Latinos here, but to me it seems the Jews and Catholics verily fail said oath. Loyalty the Pope is Loyalty to a potentate; I’ve grown up Catholic and I can tell you that most practicing Catholics I know say “the United States is temporal, nations rise and they fall. The Church is eternal - of couse I will always in the end side with the Church.” This would refer specifically to the Pope being their true figure of authority and not the President.

Jews and Israel, Jews and Israel - I don’t think I need to explain that one. Especially considering they are so loyal to the their Jewishness over their American natinality, that they swarm and infiltrate the gov’t to further their Zionist agenda en contra to the interests of all other citizens.

Let’s deal with unilaterally and not just isolate these Latinos, who by and large when taking on citizenship probably assimilate far better than you’re making it out to be.

31

I was excluding no one when I said honor the oath.
As far as the Pope, wouldn’t they counter that as their spiritual leader?

32

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I was excluding no one when I said honor the oath.
As far as the Pope, wouldn’t they counter that as their spiritual leader?

[/quote]
Except for the fact that he is the leader of a sovereign state. The Holy See homey. Through that allegiances they DO have conflicting loyalties.

You think Mormons overseas are loyal to Bogota or Salt Lake? In the end it comes down to the person but the rhetoric and its influence is definetely disconcerting.

33

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I was excluding no one when I said honor the oath.
As far as the Pope, wouldn’t they counter that as their spiritual leader?

[/quote]

10-9 that please.

34

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I was excluding no one when I said honor the oath.
As far as the Pope, wouldn’t they counter that as their spiritual leader?

[/quote]
Except for the fact that he is the leader of a sovereign state. The Holy See homey. Through that allegiances they DO have conflicting loyalties.

You think Mormons overseas are loyal to Bogota or Salt Lake? In the end it comes down to the person but the rhetoric and its influence is definetely disconcerting.
[/quote]

Don’t act like an imbecile. Mormons are loyal to Christ. They don’t worship a lake. I know you know better than this, so you must just be trying to deceitfully win points in this debate.

Catholics neither worship nor “pledge allegiance” to the Pope. He is the spiritual leader of our church, as stated. Our allegiance is to Christ, and that falls WAY outside of the parameters of the oath of citizenship.

If Chinese, Irish, Italians, Jews, Russians, Germans, Austrians, French, Spanish and all manner of other immigrants to the USA had, in its early years, all held to the philosophy I hear being preached in this thread, the USA would have very quickly become the Balkan States of America.

I find it amusing that this argument is taking place in English, too.There’s some rich irony for you.

35

.

36

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I was excluding no one when I said honor the oath.
As far as the Pope, wouldn’t they counter that as their spiritual leader?

[/quote]
Except for the fact that he is the leader of a sovereign state. The Holy See homey. Through that allegiances they DO have conflicting loyalties.

You think Mormons overseas are loyal to Bogota or Salt Lake? In the end it comes down to the person but the rhetoric and its influence is definetely disconcerting.
[/quote]

Don’t act like an imbecile. Mormons are loyal to Christ. They don’t worship a lake. I know you know better than this, so you must just be trying to deceitfully win points in this debate.

Catholics neither worship nor “pledge allegiance” to the Pope. He is the spiritual leader of our church, as stated. Our allegiance is to Christ, and that falls WAY outside of the parameters of the oath of citizenship.

If Chinese, Irish, Italians, Jews, Russians, Germans, Austrians, French, Spanish and all manner of other immigrants to the USA had, in its early years, all held to the philosophy I hear being preached in this thread, the USA would have very quickly become the Balkan States of America.

I find it amusing that this argument is taking place in English, too.There’s some rich irony for you.
[/quote]
Ya except that was the case in the original 13 colonies and it was only with the Western Expansion and then Industrialization that English began being shoved down people’s throats.
If you go through the original 13 region and their neighbors, you still have French in Maine and NH, Pennsylvania Dutch is about 1/2 a million speakers, and then Gaels up in Southeastern Canada. Hmmmmm…

I think learning English as a lingua franca is obviously beneficial but acting like displacement of the former language is some sort of necesessity is idiotic, and not a part of assimilatin. As I said, immigrants that don’t master the lingua franca will be at a perpetual economic disadvantage.

Also, I understand the Mormons don’t hail Salt Lake which is why I contrasted it Bogota.
If the Pope made a decree to rise up in arms against governments that endorse abortions, a Catholic would have to essentially stop being Catholic to disobey that order. I have been Catholic for longer than I haven’t, you cannot tell me that Papal bulls and his infallibility are not real parts of our doctrine.

38

[quote]Chushin wrote:
For those of you so impolite as to insult that poster’s parents:

First: Shame on you. What a real lack of class.

Secondly, if you believe that one can be just as fluent in English regardless of whether or not they are “bilingual,” you are incorrect. Sure one can become pretty damned “truly bilingual,” but there is always some amount of spillover between languages, preventing the speaker from realizing his ultimate potential in EITHER language.

You may say the spillover is minimal, which is fair enough. But to deny that it is there is incorrect. If that poster’s parents wanted their son to be as skilled at English as he possibly he could, they did the right thing.

I’m sure the “truly bilingual” posters here will disagree, but all one need do is read their posts closely to see what I’m describing. [/quote]
Which is why despite the fact that I have written thesis papers and poetry in Spanish, I also scored a basically perfect score on my SAT English segment. You’re ironically condescending, especially considering the fact that not even a plurality of Americans know when to use ‘was’ and when to use ‘were.’ Further, countless American monolingual speakers, don’t even have full fluency over their sole language. So much for your theory, because despite what you’ve claimed, “them people” “doesn’t know” how to “talk English.” lol

I think this spillover, is just a more critical way of thinking and speaking without regard for plastic limitations of either language. Many new grammatical constructions have evolved in United States Spanish because of contact with English. I am not just talking about ‘Spanglish’ borrowings here, I am speaking of new ways to structure the word order of sentences for expanded meaning.

Like wise, I have at times said things in English that foreigners with a similar grammatical basis and Latinos understood but monolingual English speakers did not. That doesn’t put me in a disadvantage as I know when to and when to not speak in this way.

I think this spillover only puts you at an advantage in both languages, as it allows a greater level of creativity and fluidity from the strict norms imposed upon monolingual speakers.

The most poignant example of this I can think of would be the fact that on the SATs, I had a great advantage in dissecting the ‘big words’ because they were largely of Latin origin and I spoke Spanish. A negative example of this, was during a Project I worked on during an internship, I named my final pre-production version of a DB Analysis program “Alfa” version. My Manager laughed at me, and I did not understand why. She explained “Alpha” was spelled with a “PH”, I told her I was aware of that variant of the spelling, but the Greek letter in the dictionary is transcribed in English as either. I switched it to please her one-dimensional baby boomer interests, but didn’t feel ‘stupid’ because actually “Alfa” is just as correct, as well as phonetically more approachable.

Lest we forget Joseph Conrad, a man who only became exposed to the English language at 19 years old yet went on to become one of its most influential writers of modern times. His grammar and style were born of his unique grammatical view shaped by his Polish background. That style and grammar is now a part of our literary tradition, despite that fact that at first it was seen as ‘erroneous’ in someways, in the end, it enhanced the language.

39

[quote]Chushin wrote:
For those of you so impolite as to insult that poster’s parents:

First: Shame on you. What a real lack of class.[/quote]

Agreed.

[quote] Secondly, if you believe that one can be just as fluent in English regardless of whether or not they are “bilingual,” you are incorrect. Sure one can become pretty damned “truly bilingual,” but there is always some amount of spillover between languages, preventing the speaker from realizing his ultimate potential in EITHER language.

You may say the spillover is minimal, which is fair enough. But to deny that it is there is incorrect. If that poster’s parents wanted their son to be as skilled at English as he possibly he could, they did the right thing.

I’m sure the “truly bilingual” posters here will disagree, but all one need do is read their posts closely to see what I’m describing. [/quote]

Their “ultimate potential”? I’m not sure I fully understand what you are getting at here. Are you arguing that growing up with two languages prevents one from fully understanding either? I’ve not seen that. What I have seen is that most bi-lingual speakers have a “first language” despite being bi-lingual. This language is usually the “language of education” as it were.

I know a few people who are Japanese-Americans who grew up in the US with a few years in Japan growing up, they were educated in English and it shows, sometimes even I was able to correct some Japanese despite their being FAR more fluent and literate than I.

I have a friend who grew up in PR speaking Spanish. He went to Uni with me in the US. Sure, he still makes some mistakes here and there when speaking in English. But what I found interesting is he said that when he does Engineering projects in Spanish, he sometimes doesn’t know the Spanish word, because his engineering education was in English. Is he an example of the people you are talking about?

I guess, I simply disagree if you are arguing that learning a second language growing up prevents one from “mastering” their “other” language. From my experience with bilingual people, most people tend to have a “first language.” Further, talk of “ultimate potential” seems silly to me in general. There seems to be a lot more “potential” for someone who can “pass” in two societies, even if they make a mistake here or there in their grammar. I guess my final point is that even if parents choose English over another, that is no guarantee of any sort of “ultimate potential.” I know plenty of “English only” speakers who, for example, don’t speak English as well as the people I described above.

But I am perhaps missing your point. As always, I’ve enjoyed your and Cortes’ posts.

40

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
So we’re alienating the Latinos here, but to me it seems the Jews and Catholics verily fail said oath. Loyalty the Pope is Loyalty to a potentate; I’ve grown up Catholic and I can tell you that most practicing Catholics I know say “the United States is temporal, nations rise and they fall. The Church is eternal - of couse I will always in the end side with the Church.” This would refer specifically to the Pope being their true figure of authority and not the President.

Jews and Israel, Jews and Israel - I don’t think I need to explain that one. Especially considering they are so loyal to the their Jewishness over their American natinality, that they swarm and infiltrate the gov’t to further their Zionist agenda en contra to the interests of all other citizens.

Let’s deal with unilaterally and not just isolate these Latinos, who by and large when taking on citizenship probably assimilate far better than you’re making it out to be.
[/quote]

Heh, no wonder some Baptist conspiracy theorists think that the Vatican is out to destroy the US. To me, its more stupidity than any kind of conspiracy. Too bad you’re such a moron on immigration policy since your foreign policy views seem in line with reality. That’s the problem with both the left and right though. Their both full of shit on something. Try thinking for yourself here and not let some old fart thousands of miles away do your thinking for you.