U.S. Ambassador to Libya Killed

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Is anyone planning on watching the movie? They’re showing it here

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/09/14/controversial-prophet-muhammad-film-to-be-shown-in-toronto [/quote] I doubt it.

Alright Squating_Bear my good buddy. You’re up. Here’s your chance to have a real impact. As a Muslim. Tell us what you think about this. I hold this young man in high regard folks and I alerted him privately a couple weeks ago that I would eventually do something like this. No better opportunity.
[/quote]

Read my mind on this one, perhaps because his absence from this thread has been conspicuous.[/quote]
I told you guys on the last one that I actually avoid these type of threads.

I only just read it now

This isn’t my chance for any sort of positive impact. Best I can do is NOT screw up
(It’s cool tho Tirib)

I only had one post I thought about commenting on as I was reading.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Simple solution: Set a barrier a reasonable distance from US embassy. If a crowd of crazy, protesting, Islamic extremists cross the barrier, mow them down with a mini gun.

Since violence is the only language these crazy fuckers understand and their “hearts and minds” will never be won, I have NO PROBLEM killing them when ever there is an opportunity. That is not to say I want to turn each Islamic country into a sheet of glass, but when a crowd of crazy fuckers is holding an embassy hostage, I view that as an imminent threat to US soil, and feel entitled to respond with overwhelming force.

This should accomplish two things: 1) if they have the ability to learn, then we will train them not to protest outside of our embassies, which is a good thing. 2) if they CONTINUE to protest and cross the line, we will have successfully killed some enemies of the US. Win=Win

I also think we should start dipping our bullets in pig blood and start burning some Korans. Since religion is the guiding force in their lives, it’s foolish not to exploit it’s inherent weakness and use as much psychological warfare against our enemy as possible. Put them off balance, draw them out, kill them.

Why the fuck are we still talking to and trying to reason with these stone age savages? [/quote]
I pretty much agreed with all except the last 2 paragraphs. That’s a bit to far for me - naturally.

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[quote]squating_bear wrote:>>> This isn’t my chance for any sort of positive impact. Best I can do is NOT screw up
(It’s cool tho Tirib) >>>[/quote]But it is though man. You and I have gotten to know each other a bit and to be honest you have made me reexamine my “all Muslims at least sympathize with these Shia barbarians and are enemies of America” stance. I have held that stance because all the evidence I’ve seen has forced me into that view. I’m up to armpits in practicing Muslims around here in Detroit. Except for some cordiality while telling them to repent of their false religion and beg the living Christ to forgive them for their idolatry, I have no contact with them to speak of.

Then you come along with your slippery bear routine and trick me into a dialog that results in a friendship with you. You made me really WANT to believe differently about at least SOME Muslims. Not that I would ever soften my stance on Islam as a religion, but that maybe like so many other religions I could get away with not having to view every Muslim I run across as a potential wartime enemy. Here is this ridiculous, childish and idiotic excuse that “somebody talked mean about my prophet, waaaaaa” and these savages kill people allegedly for that reason. I WANT you to say “As a Muslim I condemn and repudiate these heinous evil murderers who DO NOT represent the Islamic faith”. Where is the outrage? Why is there not a cacophony of Muslim voices doing just that? Why are not Muslims rushing to distance themselves from these vicious acts of godless violence? Including you. That actually hurts me. I WANTED you to do that.

Westboro, abortion clinic bombings, any other hateful godlessness allegedly committed in the name of Jesus and I am first in line to condemn and repudiate it. I am STILL accused of sympathy with these anti Christian people no matter how many ways I declare my renunciation. Why will you not unconditionally condemn these people and their bloodthirsty acts as anti Muslim if they are? You had a golden opportunity to make a squating_bear sized dent in the tension between America and Islam for at least a few people here and you comment on the thread, but not the topic. You’re still my friend as an individual man, but I have to be honest. I’m disappointed. And btw. I would have also had this conversation with you in private first as well, but I cannot send PM’s. (don’t know if I can receive them) I started a thread in the support forum.

165

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I WANT you to say “As a Muslim I condemn and repudiate these heinous evil murderers who DO NOT represent the Islamic faith”. Where is the outrage? Why is there not a cacophony of Muslim voices doing just that? Why are not Muslims rushing to distance themselves from these vicious acts of godless violence?
[/quote]

Agreed. We often here that it isn’t fair for one person to have to apologize for another person’s actions simply because they share a religion or ethnicity or belief. But that’s bullshit. Either you do unconditionally condemn this kind of anachronistic barbarism (in which case it doesn’t hurt you a bit to say it, in fact it is in your interest to defend the reputation of your worldview), or you not, in which case you should say so because we have much to talk about as a nation if that is the case.

*note, this is a universal “you,” I know nothing about the poster to whom the original quote was directed.

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[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]squating_bear wrote:
I told you guys on the last one that I actually avoid these type of threads.

[/quote]

Perhaps you can understand how many non-Muslims find the silence of Muslims at times like these less than reassuring.

Having said that, I can understand how no matter what you say (with the possible exception of “I am a Muslim, and I condemn this behavior in the strongest terms”) might get you dragged into a no-win situation.[/quote]
I don’t think you do understand Chushin. As crazy as it sounds - your statement would be truer without the sarcasm between parenthesis.

I did do that and there’s still some sort of problem.

I really don’t know how to condemn it in stronger terms than to agree with AC’s first 3 paragraphs

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[quote]squating_bear wrote:

I really don’t know how to condemn it in stronger terms than to agree with AC’s first 3 paragraphs[/quote]

Don’t worry about it.

169

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I WANT you to say “As a Muslim I condemn and repudiate these heinous evil murderers who DO NOT represent the Islamic faith”. Where is the outrage?[/quote]The outrage is in the ones running wild and being condemned.

You’re gonna get a focused calmness from me on this one

[quote]
Why is there not a cacophony of Muslim voices doing just that? Why are not Muslims rushing to distance themselves from these vicious acts of godless violence? Including you. That actually hurts me. I WANTED you to do that.[/quote]Distance ourselves how?

I’m already internally distanced from it about as much as possible.

Externally distancing ourselves is not as easy as one might think.

And you have some idea of what I mean, but what I would be dealing with is a couple orders of magnitude higher than what you have experienced - in my estimation.

[quote]
Westboro, abortion clinic bombings, any other hateful godlessness allegedly committed in the name of Jesus and I am first in line to condemn and repudiate it. I am STILL accused of sympathy with these anti Christian people no matter how many ways I declare my renunciation. [/quote]

[quote]
Why will you not unconditionally condemn these people and their bloodthirsty acts as anti Muslim if they are? [/quote]I did condemn this one. I didn’t put any conditions on it

[quote]
You had a golden opportunity to make a squating_bear sized dent in the tension between America and Islam for at least a few people here and you comment on the thread, but not the topic. [/quote]I commented on both. I make my best dent in any thread by being calm and focused while others… hmmmm - I won’t say anything negative

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You have to know that I was NOT trying to tie you to this or make you otherwise look bad in any way. Quite the opposite. I just know you could never go along with something like this. You really do need to ponder that whole “external distancing is not that easy” thing. For your own good. Yes, I DO know what you mean. I’ll get ya back as soon as I get PM’s goin again. To me you’re a man first.

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So, to kinda sum it up so far:

The Marines were not impeded in any way. Tragedy still ensued.

Seems like AQ might have planned this bf that pathetic “movie” came out. But the movie serves still serves as a pretext. Continues to fan the fires.

There are certain regions in the world where the Dark Ages are still competing with the modern world (exemplified by parts of the Middle East and the US Values Voter Summit).

Obama’s killed more actual terrorists than Bush, and he’s pretty relentless on the whole drone thing…

And politics is about “my team”, first and foremost.

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[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I WANT you to say “As a Muslim I condemn and repudiate these heinous evil murderers who DO NOT represent the Islamic faith”. Where is the outrage? Why is there not a cacophony of Muslim voices doing just that? Why are not Muslims rushing to distance themselves from these vicious acts of godless violence?
[/quote]

Agreed. We often here that it isn’t fair for one person to have to apologize for another person’s actions simply because they share a religion or ethnicity or belief. But that’s bullshit. Either you do unconditionally condemn this kind of anachronistic barbarism (in which case it doesn’t hurt you a bit to say it, in fact it is in your interest to defend the reputation of your worldview), or you not, in which case you should say so because we have much to talk about as a nation if that is the case.

*note, this is a universal “you,” I know nothing about the poster to whom the original quote was directed.[/quote]

I’ll take a bite on this one.

For those of you who don’t know: I have spent a lot of time in Egypt, my wife is Egyptian/devout Muslim, and all my in-laws are devout Muslims. While I don’t consider myself Muslim - I have read the Quran cover to cover, I have prayed in mosques, and I know a lot about the religion, but most importantly I talk to real born and raised Egyptian Muslims every day.

My wife (while she won’t get an account on here and come and say it herself) does completely condemn the violence, deaths of the ambassador and 3 others, tearing down and burning of the American flag, and even the widespread uproar/protest over the film. I can recall a time where she would’ve been at least a little angry over the slightest criticism of Mohammed, however, this is no longer the case. I do believe this to be because of my influence challenging her to open her mind a little here and there and to think of things more critically (since I met her).

My mother in law, however, is a different story. While she does condemn invading the embassies/consulates and the violence… she does believe the uproar to be fine. She is offended that Mohammed was insulted (even if the film is ridiculous) and wishes for the creator to be sued. She doesn’t believe people should be able to ‘disrespect’ any single religious belief.

Granted, my post is only worth something if you take my word for it, but I conclude that people born outside of ‘free’ societies can’t fully grasp the concept of people having the right to express themselves whether everybody likes it or not.

[quote]“I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.”
[/quote]

^Foreign concept to them.

176

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Krauthammer is pretty much always the smartest guy in the room.[/quote]

Krauthammer raises some good points, however I think he is being far too generous in his assumptions about Obama’s motivations. I think Dinesh D’souza has a much better grasp of Obama’s motivations. Obama may be doing what Obama thinks is best with the United States but it doesn’t mean he is doing what most Americans would think is best for the United states.

As an anti-colonialist Obama’s world view is that it will be best for the US stature in the world to be reduced so that we are no longer the world leader. He really wants us to be more like a super sized France. A country that once was a world leader but is now just a has been that doesn’t count for much in the rest of the world.

Obama has set the middle east on a course where it is going to become increasingly divergent from the west. Lets not forget that what is happening right now is in all likely hood merely the preliminary set of events leading up to the Israelis trying to set back the Iranian nuke program next month. I think that we are about to see a massive conflagration in the middle east.

Another sign of weakness from Obama that we should bear in mind is when Obama recently said “I have Israels back”. It comes back to Condoleeza Rice convention speech about leading from behind or in the case of Israel we are following from behind while being a back seat driver and not even doing a good job of that.

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[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]squating_bear wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]squating_bear wrote:
I told you guys on the last one that I actually avoid these type of threads.

[/quote]

Perhaps you can understand how many non-Muslims find the silence of Muslims at times like these less than reassuring.

Having said that, I can understand how no matter what you say (with the possible exception of “I am a Muslim, and I condemn this behavior in the strongest terms”) might get you dragged into a no-win situation.[/quote]
I don’t think you do understand Chushin. As crazy as it sounds - your statement would be truer without the sarcasm between parenthesis.

I did do that and there’s still some sort of problem.

I really don’t know how to condemn it in stronger terms than to agree with AC’s first 3 paragraphs[/quote]

Whoa, that wasn’t sarcasm at all,

And shaking your head in agreement ain’t the same as making a statement.[/quote]
sigh

So I’m reading the thread at roughly 2 AM right, and then I come to AC’s post. Reading and nodding at the same time. Till the last 2 paragraphs - I tilt my head and keep reading. I go “huh”, and open a new tab on it. Then keep reading some more - not really sure at that point if I’ll bother to speak on it or not

Come to the end and find that I’ve been called out. Must make a statement.

So I stated that I agreed with AC’s basic sentiments - except at the end he took it to far.

The nodding of my head was internal. None of you saw that.

My post to y’all was external - you guys saw that. Only the most minor semantics separate that from “a statement”.

On the sarcasm bit… I’ll just say that I still detect a metric ton of dark humor and irony within the contrasting of the parenthesized vs. regular

vs.

damn near impossible
vs.
extremely easy

I guess me reading that as sarcasm is just a part of the tension that comes with being called out in such a thread

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[quote]Makavali wrote:
I’m jumping in a bit late here, but didn’t they attack an embassy? Isn’t that American soil?

Isn’t this an act of war?[/quote]

Did anyone ever answer this?

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@Squating_Bear:
I didn’t do it to hurt you =[ Check your emails.

Mak is right on. War indeed. They have found the guy who made the movie, exposed him to mortal danger and are in the process of taking him down as I type this.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
They have found the guy who made the movie, exposed him to mortal danger and are in the process of taking him down as I type this.[/quote]

They’ve also been pressuring youtube to take down the video.