So I’ve just had an imaginary argument with someone who whole-heartedly agrees with everything I’ve written about Islam. Right.
Let them all go, preferably in Washington DC or New York or London. Swing them by the Barrett rifle factory in the process so they can exercise their right to keep and bear arms. I don’t know how many different ways I can re-state this.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Thanks for letting us know what not to do. The British don’t have a fucking clue about how to deal with the threat of Islam. Remember they are the idiots who are letting their country be flooded with so many muslims that Britain has become a threat to everyone else. Just look at this article from today’s news.
CIA warns Barack Obama that British terrorists are the biggest threat to the US
Barack Obama has been warned by the CIA that British Islamist extremists are the greatest threat to US homeland security.
American spy chiefs have told the President that the CIA has launched a vast spying operation in the UK to prevent a repeat of the 9/11 attacks being launched from Britain.
They believe that a British-born Pakistani extremist entering the US under the visa waiver programme is the most likely source of another terrorist spectacular on American soil.
Intelligence briefings for Mr Obama have detailed a dramatic escalation in American espionage in Britain, where the CIA has recruited record numbers of informants in the Pakistani community to monitor the 2,000 terrorist suspects identified by MI5, the British security service.
A British intelligence source revealed that a staggering four out of 10 CIA operations designed to thwart direct attacks on the US are now conducted against targets in Britain.
And a former CIA officer who has advised Mr Obama told The Sunday Telegraph that the CIA has stepped up its efforts in the last month after the Mumbai massacre laid bare the threat from Lashkar-e-Taiba, the militant group behind the attacks, which has an extensive web of supporters in the UK.
The CIA has already spent 18 months developing a network of agents in Britain to combat al-Qaeda, unprecedented in size within the borders of such a close ally, according to intelligence sources in both London and Washington.
Bruce Riedel, a former CIA officer who has advised Mr Obama, told The Sunday Telegraph: "The British Pakistani community is recognised as probably al-Qaeda’s best mechanism for launching an attack against North America.
“The American security establishment believes that danger continues and there’s very intimate cooperation between our security services to monitor that.” Mr Riedel, who served three presidents as a Middle East expert on the White House National Security Council, added: “President Obama’s national security team are well aware that this is a serious threat.”
The British official said: "The Americans run their own assets in the Pakistani community; they get their own intelligence. There’s close cooperation with MI5 but they don’t tell us the names of all their sources.
“Around 40 per cent of CIA activity on homeland threats is now in the UK. This is quite unprecedented.”
Explaining the increase in CIA activity over the past month, Mr Riedel added: “In the aftermath of the Mumbai attack the US and the UK intelligence services now have to regard Lashkar-e-Taiba as just as serious a threat to both of our countries as al-Qaeda. They have a much more extensive base among Pakistani Diaspora communities in the UK than al?Qaeda.”
Information gleaned by CIA spies in Britain has already helped thwart several terrorist attacks in the UK and was instrumental in locating Rashid Rauf, a British-born al-Qaeda operative implicated in a plot to explode airliners over the Atlantic, who was tracked down and killed in a US missile strike in November.
But some US intelligence officers are irritated that valuable manpower and resources have been diverted to the UK. One former intelligence officer who does contract work for the CIA dismissed Britain as a “swamp” of jihadis.
Jonathan Evans, the director general of MI5, admitted in January that the Security Service alone does not have the resources to maintain surveillance on all its targets. “We don’t have anything approaching comprehensive coverage,” he said.
The dramatic escalation in CIA activity in the UK followed the exposure in August 2006 of Operation Overt, the alleged airline bomb plot.
The British intelligence official revealed that CIA chiefs sent more resources to the UK because they were not prepared to see American citizens die as a result of MI5’s inability to keep tabs on all suspects, even though the Security Service successfully uncovered the plot.
MI5 manpower will have doubled to 4,100 by 2011 but many in the US intelligence community do not think that is enough.
For their part, some British officials are queasy that information obtained by the CIA from British Pakistanis was used to help target Mr Rauf, a British citizen, whom they would have preferred to capture and bring to trial.
Sensitivities over the intelligence arrangement formed a key part of briefings given to Mr Obama, since they are central to what is often called “the most special part of the special relationship” and could complicate his dealings with Gordon Brown.
Tensions in transatlantic intelligence relations which were laid bare last week during the High Court battle over Binyam Mohamed, the British resident held in Guanatanamo Bay.
British judges wanted to publish details of the torture administered to Mr Mohamed, an Ethiopian national, in US custody. But key paragraphs were blacked out after American officials threatened it could damage intelligence sharing between the two countries.
Intelligence experts said that a trusting intelligence relationship, in which one country does not publish intelligence data obtained by the other, is vital to both countries’ national security.
Patrick Mercer, chairman of the House of Commons counter-terrorism sub-committee, said: "The special relationship is a huge benefit to us. It clearly works to our advantage and helps keep the people of the UK and the US safe.
“There is no doubt that a great deal of valuable intelligence vital to British national security is procured by American agents from British sources.”
Mr Riedel added: "The partnership between the two intelligence communities is dynamic; it is one of great intimacy. We overuse the term special relationship, but this is an extraordinarily special relationship.
“Since September 11 the philosophy on both sides has been to err on the side of telling each other more rather than less. It is in everyone’s interests that that continues.”
Oh it’s the resident BNP supporter back to cut and paste some more newspaper articles. [/quote]
That is what we do here, bring interesting news articles to read and comment on them. We have been doing this since long before you reared your ugly head. If you can’t hang with that why don’t you go back to the Guardian.
[quote]
I’m confused, last week Mexico was the biggest threat, did the CIA already deal with that one then? [/quote]
I didn’t say anything about Mexico.
[quote]
So what is your solution then KKKSifu? [/quote]
Look asshole, since it has already been established in this thread that you don’t see anything wrong with the KKK I think you should shut the fuck up about the KKK.
[quote]
Lock up all Muslims as a way of helping the moderate elements within Islam to get their message heard over the raving extremists? [/quote]
What moderate elements? Why don’t you learn some of the history of Islam founder Mohammad instead of being so ignorant.
There is nothing moderate about a religion that was founded by a man who used kidnapping, slavery, rape, torture and murder as a means to spread his religion. Those are not ambiguous acts, either you believe they are right or you believe they are wrong.
[quote]
Or maybe you have been reading books by some of your new BNP chums heroes and are actually looking at some sort of final solution. [/quote]
It is because of assholes like you that Britain is in the dire straights it is in now. Because your kind will not allow adult discussions of a very serious issue that will have severe ramifications for the future of that country.
Islam has a long bloody history of intolerance and violence against other religions along with a fair amount of racism. Yet despite this history, if someone criticizes Islam, hypocritical assholes like you, will try to characterize the critic as some kind of Nazi.
It is because of assholes like you that people in Britain are increasingly turning to the BNP. You assholes have so overused and abused the term racist that it no longer carries the stigma that it would once have had.
I seriously doubt that many of the new people who have recently joined the BNP have done so out of a deeply felt hatred of other races.
I think it is much more likely that they are fed up with the old gang ignoring them on such a vitally important issue as to who they have to share their homeland with and consider their fellow countrymen.
This article from the Telegraph shows what is happening. Americans and British should be natural allies and be able to trust one another. All the muslims in Britain are destroying that trust, but noone outside of the BNP is speaking out against what is happening.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
You have made sarcastic posts about letting them go in Liberal areas and had a one man argument about problems with Islam (which no-one other than lixy has disagreed with.)
So I’ve just had an imaginary argument with someone who whole-heartedly agrees with everything I’ve written about Islam. Right.
[/quote]
I agree with a number of the things that you have written about the extreme parts of Islam, but I disagree that this means that anyone who is an Arab is guilty by association.
OK, so could you explain the rationale behind your suggestion? How will this help to resolve the issues in the middle east and the threats to the US?
[quote]Sifu wrote:
That is what we do here, bring interesting news articles to read and comment on them. We have been doing this since long before you reared your ugly head. If you can’t hang with that why don’t you go back to the Guardian.
[/quote]
Look bozo I already repeatedly told you that I don’t see the Guardian as a credible journalistic news source (other than sports reporting) but I guess that as you haven’t seen it as a daily mail headline you have problems following it.
No, the CIA did according to a report posted in another thread. My point was that this is another example of journalists sensationalising reports that come out.
What are you dribling on about now? You are the one that freely admits your support of a political group that has proven links with Combat 18 and other neo-nazi groups.
My only comment on KKK was to liken the BNP to it. Of course I see things wrong with the KKK.
You could just as easily be writing about the Christian Church with your comments. The bible even contains sections about how to treat your slaves.
In case you are having trouble keeping up with the long words and the lack of pictures I have happily come out against the elements within Islam that are stirring up violence and out against organised religion in general.
[quote]
Or maybe you have been reading books by some of your new BNP chums heroes and are actually looking at some sort of final solution.
It is because of assholes like you that Britain is in the dire straights it is in now. Because your kind will not allow adult discussions of a very serious issue that will have severe ramifications for the future of that country.
Islam has a long bloody history of intolerance and violence against other religions along with a fair amount of racism. Yet despite this history, if someone criticizes Islam, hypocritical assholes like you, will try to characterize the critic as some kind of Nazi.
It is because of assholes like you that people in Britain are increasingly turning to the BNP. You assholes have so overused and abused the term racist that it no longer carries the stigma that it would once have had.
I seriously doubt that many of the new people who have recently joined the BNP have done so out of a deeply felt hatred of other races.
I think it is much more likely that they are fed up with the old gang ignoring them on such a vitally important issue as to who they have to share their homeland with and consider their fellow countrymen.
This article from the Telegraph shows what is happening. Americans and British should be natural allies and be able to trust one another. All the muslims in Britain are destroying that trust, but noone outside of the BNP is speaking out against what is happening. [/quote]
You really are that dumb aren’t you. The people are not fighting because of religion, religion is being used to stir up violence that is about land, oil, food, water and power. We don’t need to have a my religion is better than yours argument, we need to understand the religious language that is being used and work to educate people. At the same time we need to work to resolve the root cause issues.
[quote]OK, so could you explain the rationale behind your suggestion?
[/quote]
Yes. Obama and Biden have announced an end to the war on terror and are begging for the goodwill of Muslims.
[quote]
How will this help to resolve the issues in the middle east and the threats to the US?[/quote]
Who cares?
So, in other words, the Qur’an and Hadith contain no mandates for warfare for religious causes? Haven’t I posted a bunch?
You’ll make a great Arab. You and the rest of the British who think like you.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
I’m confused, last week Mexico was the biggest threat, did the CIA already deal with that one then?
I didn’t say anything about Mexico.
No, the CIA did according to a report posted in another thread. My point was that this is another example of journalists sensationalising reports that come out. [/quote]
Mexico has big problems that have been making their way across the border into the US. When American citizens are being kidnapped off of the streets of American cities and taken into Mexico that is a big problem.
Besides you are the lat person here who has any grounds to complain about sensationalist news reporting.
[quote]
So what is your solution then KKKSifu?
Look asshole, since it has already been established in this thread that you don’t see anything wrong with the KKK I think you should shut the fuck up about the KKK.
What are you dribling on about now? You are the one that freely admits your support of a political group that has proven links with Combat 18 and other neo-nazi groups.
My only comment on KKK was to liken the BNP to it. Of course I see things wrong with the KKK. [/quote]
You didn’t seen anything wrong with the KKK a few days ago. Here let me remind you.
I wrote,
"Do you think he changed his position truly and honestly in his heart or do you think that he was advised to say some different things in order to win votes?
I don’t know what he has going on in his heart. What I do know is that he has seriously toned down his rhetoric. You should learn about some of the democrat friends of Barak Obama.
http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=UzfK7AWx6_s
http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=0FIBJt-c2o0
I’m barely scratching the surface on that subject by the way."
You replied.
"The old school parties are bad enough but to claim they are worse than the BNP is something that I cannot go along with.
And you don’t need to try and hit me with Anti Obama material, he strikes me as similar to Tony Blair, great smile, not a lot of integrity behind it. (I hope I am wrong on this and to be fair I didn’t follow the US presidential race that closely.)"
[quote]
Lock up all Muslims as a way of helping the moderate elements within Islam to get their message heard over the raving extremists?
What moderate elements? Why don’t you learn some of the history of Islam founder Mohammad instead of being so ignorant.
There is nothing moderate about a religion that was founded by a man who used kidnapping, slavery, rape, torture and murder as a means to spread his religion. Those are not ambiguous acts, either you believe they are right or you believe they are wrong.
You could just as easily be writing about the Christian Church with your comments. The bible even contains sections about how to treat your slaves. [/quote]
No you cannot. You are so full of shit. Jesus never owned slaves, never tortured or mutilated anyone, never raped anyone, never killed anyone. The ideology that Jesus taught and the example that Jesus set could not have been any more different from Mohammad.
The old testament is the old Hebrew bible. Judaism is a different religion from Christianity. At the time that the old testament was added to the bible there were those who were arguing that it didn’t belong because it was a different religion.
So far the whole basis of your argument has been to not only ignore the cruelty and violence that Mohammad used to serve his own selfish agenda. But then because you know you can’t do anything to rehabilitate Mohammad you instead take to throwing shit at Jesus in order to make him look bad so you can then argue that there is a moral equivalence between the two.
Once you can get idiots to believe that, you will then try to argue that it isn’t the Islamic religion that is to blame for Jihadi’s like Mohammad. It is some evil third party who has caused all this trouble.
[quote]
In case you are having trouble keeping up with the long words and the lack of pictures I have happily come out against the elements within Islam that are stirring up violence and out against organised religion in general. [/quote]
With this you have proven what I just wrote. You refuse to accept that Mohammad is a bad role model and instead try to pass the blame onto “elements within Islam that are stirring up violence”. The element in Islam that is stirring up violence is Mohammad.
For a person who is against religion in general you certainly put a lot of effort into defending Islam. The one religion that more than any other represents all that is bad about religion.
Are you really an atheist? Or are you just a closet muslim lying about your true loyalties so you can mislead people?
[quote]
Or maybe you have been reading books by some of your new BNP chums heroes and are actually looking at some sort of final solution.
It is because of assholes like you that Britain is in the dire straights it is in now. Because your kind will not allow adult discussions of a very serious issue that will have severe ramifications for the future of that country.
Islam has a long bloody history of intolerance and violence against other religions along with a fair amount of racism. Yet despite this history, if someone criticizes Islam, hypocritical assholes like you, will try to characterize the critic as some kind of Nazi.
It is because of assholes like you that people in Britain are increasingly turning to the BNP. You assholes have so overused and abused the term racist that it no longer carries the stigma that it would once have had.
I seriously doubt that many of the new people who have recently joined the BNP have done so out of a deeply felt hatred of other races.
I think it is much more likely that they are fed up with the old gang ignoring them on such a vitally important issue as to who they have to share their homeland with and consider their fellow countrymen.
This article from the Telegraph shows what is happening. Americans and British should be natural allies and be able to trust one another. All the muslims in Britain are destroying that trust, but noone outside of the BNP is speaking out against what is happening.
You really are that dumb aren’t you. The people are not fighting because of religion, religion is being used to stir up violence that is about land, oil, food, water and power. We don’t need to have a my religion is better than yours argument, we need to understand the religious language that is being used and work to educate people. At the same time we need to work to resolve the root cause issues. [/quote]
If you can’t see the role that religion is playing in all this then you are the one who is dumb. This has nothing to do with oil, land, food, water. Those are spurious arguments used to mislead idiots in the west into thinking there is some legitimate grievance behind this Jihad which began with Mohammad and continues to this day.
The root cause issue is Islam is a supremacist ideology that seeks to impose itself through any means available including violence. Until there is honesty about the hatred and violence that Islam breeds there will not be a peaceful way to end the Jihad and westerners will remain clueless about how to deal with it.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
I’m confused, last week Mexico was the biggest threat, did the CIA already deal with that one then?
I didn’t say anything about Mexico.
No, the CIA did according to a report posted in another thread. My point was that this is another example of journalists sensationalising reports that come out.
Mexico has big problems that have been making their way across the border into the US. When American citizens are being kidnapped off of the streets of American cities and taken into Mexico that is a big problem.
Besides you are the lat person here who has any grounds to complain about sensationalist news reporting.
[/quote]
And the drugs problems are caused by US drug laws and US citizens buying drugs so it only seems fair that you share the kidnappings.
Are you on drugs? I was clearly talking about Labour and the Tories, where do you get the KKK from.
We are not going to have to go over all of the cases of buggery of small boys, support for the Nazis, persecution of minorities, witch trials etc that the church is guilty of are we? I guess you must have missed those bits of history whilst you were swallowing the fact that the BNP leaders are ‘just misunderstood.’
I have repeatedly stated that all religion is wrong, I have even clearly stated that parts of the Koran and the Hadith are more blatantly hateful that the Christian Bible.
My point for thick prats like you who are having difficulty is that for a Christian to complain about an Islamic person blindly following stupid religious edicts is hypocritical.
[quote]
Or maybe you have been reading books by some of your new BNP chums heroes and are actually looking at some sort of final solution.
It is because of assholes like you that Britain is in the dire straights it is in now. Because your kind will not allow adult discussions of a very serious issue that will have severe ramifications for the future of that country.
Islam has a long bloody history of intolerance and violence against other religions along with a fair amount of racism. Yet despite this history, if someone criticizes Islam, hypocritical assholes like you, will try to characterize the critic as some kind of Nazi.
It is because of assholes like you that people in Britain are increasingly turning to the BNP. You assholes have so overused and abused the term racist that it no longer carries the stigma that it would once have had.
I seriously doubt that many of the new people who have recently joined the BNP have done so out of a deeply felt hatred of other races.
I think it is much more likely that they are fed up with the old gang ignoring them on such a vitally important issue as to who they have to share their homeland with and consider their fellow countrymen.
This article from the Telegraph shows what is happening. Americans and British should be natural allies and be able to trust one another. All the muslims in Britain are destroying that trust, but noone outside of the BNP is speaking out against what is happening.
You really are that dumb aren’t you. The people are not fighting because of religion, religion is being used to stir up violence that is about land, oil, food, water and power. We don’t need to have a my religion is better than yours argument, we need to understand the religious language that is being used and work to educate people. At the same time we need to work to resolve the root cause issues.
If you can’t see the role that religion is playing in all this then you are the one who is dumb. This has nothing to do with oil, land, food, water. Those are spurious arguments used to mislead idiots in the west into thinking there is some legitimate grievance behind this Jihad which began with Mohammad and continues to this day.
The root cause issue is Islam is a supremacist ideology that seeks to impose itself through any means available including violence. Until there is honesty about the hatred and violence that Islam breeds there will not be a peaceful way to end the Jihad and westerners will remain clueless about how to deal with it. [/quote]
OK, you go fight your hold war to prove that you follow your imaginary friend better than those pesky Arabs who even though they follow at the base the same religion as you have got it all wrong.
I will worry about real issues that are causing people to fight.
I would be interested however to hear how you would get a peaceful end to the Jihad. Unless it involves loving them, forgiving them and turning the other cheek you are not being a very good Christian are you?
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Chushin wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
I am totally against the implementation or recognition of Shariah law within the UK as I would be with the implementation of any Christian based laws…
Am I way off-base, or does that mean you oppose current UK law?
In spades!
Details, please?[/quote]
Wow, where do I start. Having a head of state who is also the head of the Church and is there based on a hereditary basis. Having an unelected second house in parliament.
If you want to talk laws, the Criminal Justice bill was a joke. The fact that the first time that the new anti terrorism laws were envoked was due to a pensioner standing up during the Labour party conference in order to heckle Tony Blair.
It’s a very long list.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
OK, you go fight your hold war to prove that you follow your imaginary friend better than those pesky Arabs who even though they follow at the base the same religion as you have got it all wrong.
[/quote]
Not like any athiest Commies ever killed any Muslims. The slaughter of the Muslims under the Godless Communists probably exceeds those who died in the Nazi Holocaust by far.
And why were they killed? Because they believed in Allah.
It was to prove those who believe in reason were better than those who believed in some form of a God. The only way to achieve this was through extermination of all believers.
Great guys these athiests. It all looks so logical in your philosophy books…in practice, not much better than those you condemn.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
OK, you go fight your hold war to prove that you follow your imaginary friend better than those pesky Arabs who even though they follow at the base the same religion as you have got it all wrong.
Not like any athiest Commies ever killed any Muslims. The slaughter of the Muslims under the Godless Communists probably exceeds those who died in the Nazi Holocaust by far.
And why were they killed? Because they believed in Allah.
It was to prove those who believe in reason were better than those who believed in some form of a God. The only way to achieve this was through extermination of all believers.
Great guys these athiests. It all looks so logical in your philosophy books…in practice, not much better than those you condemn.[/quote]
So you agree that the religion isn’t the issue but a symptom.
Just becauase someone is atheist doesn’t mean they are not nuts. Whereas to a certain extent the reverse is not true 
People are just nuts regardless.
EDIT - but most insane passions can be aroused by warlike rhetoric whether killing the infidel, exterminating the inferior races or killing the bourgeoisie.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
People are just nuts regardless.
EDIT - but most insane passions can be aroused by warlike rhetoric whether killing the infidel, exterminating the inferior races or killing the bourgeoisie.
[/quote]
Couldn’t agree more.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
I wrote,
"Do you think he changed his position truly and honestly in his heart or do you think that he was advised to say some different things in order to win votes?
I don’t know what he has going on in his heart. What I do know is that he has seriously toned down his rhetoric. You should learn about some of the democrat friends of Barak Obama.
Are you on drugs? I was clearly talking about Labour and the Tories, where do you get the KKK from. [/quote]
Are you blind or just a dumbass?
[quote]
We are not going to have to go over all of the cases of buggery of small boys, support for the Nazis, persecution of minorities, witch trials etc that the church is guilty of are we? I guess you must have missed those bits of history whilst you were swallowing the fact that the BNP leaders are ‘just misunderstood.’ [/quote]
After this gem I will have to assume you are a dumbass. You are bringing an old worn out childish argument that has been thoroughly debunked on this board numerous times.
Your Christianity has done bad things too argument is childish. What ever bad things Christians have done is irrelevant to a discussion about Islam. Yet idiot defenders of Islam like you keep throwing “but Christianity____” out there because you know very well that Islam is indefensible so you try to distract the argument into irrelevance.
Besides, the bad things that you are blaming on Christianity are not supported by the teachings of Jesus. When Christians do things that are inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus it is wrong to blame Christianity.
So while I am well aware of the history that you refer to, it is not a history that Jesus would have condoned.
[quote]
I have repeatedly stated that all religion is wrong, I have even clearly stated that parts of the Koran and the Hadith are more blatantly hateful that the Christian Bible.
My point for thick prats like you who are having difficulty is that for a Christian to complain about an Islamic person blindly following stupid religious edicts is hypocritical. [/quote]
If anyone is a thick prat it is you. You are constantly making generalizations about “all religion” that are ignorant. You are constantly trying to imply that they are all the same when it is quite obvious that they are not.
The only Christian part of the bible is the New Testament. Out of the NT which parts are blatantly hateful?
There is a lot more to Christianity and Islam than just edicts. There is also the example that was set by the founder of each religion. When Christians or Muslims go around acting like Jesus good things will happen. But when Muslims or Christians go around acting like Mohammad there is bloodshed and suffering.
Mohammad was a man of violence. Jesus was a man of peace. So it is not hypocritical for Christians to complain about Muslims violently acting like Mohammad.
[quote]
OK, you go fight your hold war to prove that you follow your imaginary friend better than those pesky Arabs who even though they follow at the base the same religion as you have got it all wrong. [/quote]
Please use the Queen’s English so we can understand what the hell you are going on about.
[quote]
I will worry about real issues that are causing people to fight. [/quote]
Now you are making me laugh! Your arrogance is astounding. It rivals your ignorance. You have repeatedly admitted that you don’t have the necessary frame of reference to understand what is motivating the jihadists.
Yet when someone who is religious like PRCaldude points out where they are getting their motivation from you rubbish it. Then come back with some stupid bullshit because you are trying to put their thinking into a frame of reference that YOU can understand.
ie From reading your previous posts I can tell you think that poverty is a cause. That we can buy them off somehow. The jihad isn’t some kind of social justice movement. But you believe it is because you can’t understand how religion can trump materialism or the desire to live.
Right now Bin Laden could be living like a king in a palace instead of hiding in a cave waiting to be killed. The men who did the suicide attack on the Glasgow airport were doctors, they could have been living a comfortable middle class life instead of killing themselves trying to kill nonbelievers.
So I seriously doubt that you can figure out what the “real issues” are.
[quote]
I would be interested however to hear how you would get a peaceful end to the Jihad. Unless it involves loving them, forgiving them and turning the other cheek you are not being a very good Christian are you? [/quote]
There probably isn’t going to be a peaceful end to the jihad. To do that you would have to change the way Muslims think and that just isn’t going to happen. Violence and hatred are too deeply ingrained into the Muslim psyche and too integral to the religion. Plus there are just too many of them for the present rate of the war on terror to make a dent.
Most likely what is going to happen is they are going to get themselves into a nuclear exchange with either the Israeli’s, the Indian’s or both. Then after there are a lot of them dead what’s left might wake up to what their religion is about.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
I wrote,
"Do you think he changed his position truly and honestly in his heart or do you think that he was advised to say some different things in order to win votes?
I don’t know what he has going on in his heart. What I do know is that he has seriously toned down his rhetoric. You should learn about some of the democrat friends of Barak Obama.
Are you on drugs? I was clearly talking about Labour and the Tories, where do you get the KKK from.
Are you blind or just a dumbass?
[/quote]
If you are referring to the youtube vid I haven’t watched it, I can’t get to youtube at work. This may explain the confusion.
Jesus who? There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that any such person ever existed so to compare his ‘life’ with that of Mohamed is ridiculous.
I am not a defender of Islam. I think that it is ridiculous for anyone to be trying to base their life on outdated ramblings of clearly mentally ill people who think they have been speaking to god.
Then why is the NT part of the Christian Bible? Why are passages from the OT read in Churches as lessons? Why did Jesus refer to the OT?
Again, Jesus who?
Reading comprehension is not one of the services that I currently offer. I suggest an adult college.
Poverty is a cause, as is the lust for power and the desire to control people. As is a lack of education. If people could get past religion then they would have to confront the real reasons that they want to kill each other.
The real issue is that we have people who will read a badly translated and edited book that is over a thousand years old and try to use it as a set of rules to live their life by. Swapping the book doesn’t solve the problem.
[quote]
I would be interested however to hear how you would get a peaceful end to the Jihad. Unless it involves loving them, forgiving them and turning the other cheek you are not being a very good Christian are you?
There probably isn’t going to be a peaceful end to the jihad. To do that you would have to change the way Muslims think and that just isn’t going to happen. Violence and hatred are too deeply ingrained into the Muslim psyche and too integral to the religion. Plus there are just too many of them for the present rate of the war on terror to make a dent.
Most likely what is going to happen is they are going to get themselves into a nuclear exchange with either the Israeli’s, the Indian’s or both. Then after there are a lot of them dead what’s left might wake up to what their religion is about. [/quote]
So what is your suggested solution then? I’m not talking about the whole Middle East conflict, just Guantanamo, what would you do?
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
So while I am well aware of the history that you refer to, it is not a history that Jesus would have condoned.
Jesus who? There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that any such person ever existed so to compare his ‘life’ with that of Mohamed is ridiculous. [/quote]
More irrelevance that I am not going to bother arguing with you about. The existence or nonexistence of either Jesus or Mohammad does not matter at this point in time.
You certainly do like to try and distract the conversation away from looking at your side.
In Jesus, Christians have a central role model who taught people to be peaceful and forgiving.
Mohammad on the other hand was very violent and unforgiving. This is why Muslims are violent and unforgiving.
[quote]
I am not a defender of Islam.[/quote]
You have been very defensive of Islam.
[quote]
I think that it is ridiculous for anyone to be trying to base their life on outdated ramblings of clearly mentally ill people who think they have been speaking to god. [/quote]
Now you are just trying to stroke yourself.
Jesus had some good ideas, people should be more forgiving and have more love for each other. People who live by the sword do eventually bring violence upon themselves. I would not call those ideas mental illness. I would call them enlightened.
[quote]
I have repeatedly stated that all religion is wrong, I have even clearly stated that parts of the Koran and the Hadith are more blatantly hateful that the Christian Bible.
My point for thick prats like you who are having difficulty is that for a Christian to complain about an Islamic person blindly following stupid religious edicts is hypocritical.
If anyone is a thick prat it is you. You are constantly making generalizations about “all religion” that are ignorant. You are constantly trying to imply that they are all the same when it is quite obvious that they are not.
The only Christian part of the bible is the New Testament. Out of the NT which parts are blatantly hateful?
Then why is the NT part of the Christian Bible? [/quote]
I would have thought that would be self evident.
[quote]
Why are passages from the OT read in Churches as lessons? Why did Jesus refer to the OT? [/quote]
Your first question answers the second. The Romans are the ones who inserted the OT into the Christian bible and took out gospels that they didn’t like. Jesus made a break with a lot of the old testament so churches probably shouldn’t teach it.
[quote]
There is a lot more to Christianity and Islam than just edicts. There is also the example that was set by the founder of each religion.
When Christians or Muslims go around acting like Jesus good things will happen. But when Muslims or Christians go around acting like Mohammad there is bloodshed and suffering.
Mohammad was a man of violence. Jesus was a man of peace. So it is not hypocritical for Christians to complain about Muslims violently acting like Mohammad.
Again, Jesus who? [/quote]
There are those who say the same thing about Mohammad. Interesting that you don’t question the existence of him though.
[quote]
OK, you go fight your hold war to prove that you follow your imaginary friend better than those pesky Arabs who even though they follow at the base the same religion as you have got it all wrong.
Please use the Queen’s English so we can understand what the hell you are going on about.
Reading comprehension is not one of the services that I currently offer. I suggest an adult college. [/quote]
Obviously your reading comprehension is as poor as your grammer. What is a “hold war”? Maybe you should reread what you wrote when you aren’t baked.
[quote]
I will worry about real issues that are causing people to fight.
Now you are making me laugh! Your arrogance is astounding. It rivals your ignorance. You have repeatedly admitted that you don’t have the necessary frame of reference to understand what is motivating the jihadists.
Yet when someone who is religious like PRCaldude points out where they are getting their motivation from you rubbish it. Then come back with some stupid bullshit because you are trying to put their thinking into a frame of reference that YOU can understand.
ie From reading your previous posts I can tell you think that poverty is a cause. That we can buy them off somehow. The jihad isn’t some kind of social justice movement. But you believe it is because you can’t understand how religion can trump materialism or the desire to live.
Poverty is a cause, as is the lust for power and the desire to control people. As is a lack of education. If people could get past religion then they would have to confront the real reasons that they want to kill each other. [/quote]
You are going to need to rethink your beliefs on that because Bin Laden isn’t poor and those doctors who tried to burn down the Glasgow airport were not uneducated.
[quote]
Right now Bin Laden could be living like a king in a palace instead of hiding in a cave waiting to be killed. The men who did the suicide attack on the Glasgow airport were doctors, they could have been living a comfortable middle class life instead of killing themselves trying to kill nonbelievers.
So I seriously doubt that you can figure out what the “real issues” are.
The real issue is that we have people who will read a badly translated and edited book that is over a thousand years old and try to use it as a set of rules to live their life by. Swapping the book doesn’t solve the problem. [/quote]
When a religion’s central role model is a warlord who used violence in order to pursue his own agenda and religion as a way to keep his followers motivated and obedient there will always be problems with that religion.
Religion plays a role in a lot of peoples lives, you aren’t going to get a way from that anytime soon. Besides it doesn’t make sense to trash all religions just because one happens to be particularly evil.
[quote]
I would be interested however to hear how you would get a peaceful end to the Jihad. Unless it involves loving them, forgiving them and turning the other cheek you are not being a very good Christian are you?
There probably isn’t going to be a peaceful end to the jihad. To do that you would have to change the way Muslims think and that just isn’t going to happen.
Violence and hatred are too deeply ingrained into the Muslim psyche and too integral to the religion. Plus there are just too many of them for the present rate of the war on terror to make a dent.
Most likely what is going to happen is they are going to get themselves into a nuclear exchange with either the Israeli’s, the Indian’s or both. Then after there are a lot of them dead what’s left might wake up to what their religion is about.
So what is your suggested solution then? I’m not talking about the whole Middle East conflict, just Guantanamo, what would you do?[/quote]
First thing is this. Everything we need to know about the Geneva conventions can be learned from watching reruns of Hogans Heroes. Soldiers in uniform get humane treatment under Geneva convention.
Enemy agents caught out of uniform are classified as spies or saboteurs and can be executed. So a lot of those people there are lucky they haven’t been executed.
I think we should make an effort to sort out who is who quickly so we don’t hold any more there than we need to. But I don’t think we should just let potentially dangerous people go just because people in Europe want to whine or because Muslims are going to be pissed off.
What is interesting to me is, in the other thread about Israel bombing Gaza in self defense, CB says PRCaldude can’t find any text in the NT that justifies Israeli aggression against Gaza. Just goes to show that the NT does not condone violence.
Compare that to text in the Muslim’s Holy Book that do condone violence.
Nothing wrong with Gitmo. Move along.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
So while I am well aware of the history that you refer to, it is not a history that Jesus would have condoned.
Jesus who? There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that any such person ever existed so to compare his ‘life’ with that of Mohamed is ridiculous.
More irrelevance that I am not going to bother arguing with you about. The existence or nonexistence of either Jesus or Mohammad does not matter at this point in time.
You certainly do like to try and distract the conversation away from looking at your side.
In Jesus, Christians have a central role model who taught people to be peaceful and forgiving.
Mohammad on the other hand was very violent and unforgiving. This is why Muslims are violent and unforgiving.
[/quote]
Or maybe it is the other way round, maybe they find that the violent teachings within Islam resonate with the way that they feel.
By calling it a hateful religion based on the ramblings of someone who was clearly mad?
I was referring to Mohamed as much as I was to the followers of whichever Jesus you are choosing as the son of god.
Well I know technically why it is there, it’s due to the decisions made at the first council of Nicea. My question is, to modern day Christian, why is it there if it is not relevent?
Ah, so you actually follow your own religion then. Congratulations, not only are you a sifu but the founder of a religion.
(I actually have more respect for people who want to figure out their own spirituality than people who just believe what they are told to by organised religion. My question would be, why bother with a bible at all?)
Oh no, I fully accept that Mohamed may also be a ficticious character, though the story is a little bit more consistant and beleivable and was written down closer to his supposed life.
Doh! Holy War. My proof reading skills are not so hot when I am typing on a second screen whilst attending really dull audioconferences.
No I am not, the critical mass of religion is the great unwashed, just because a small number or rich, educated people are involved doesn’t mean that education isn’t the key.
And they didn’t really burn down Glasgow Airport, they badly burned themselves and did minor damage to the frontage of the airport. Watch you don’t go sensationalising an event Daily Mail style.
I think it makes perfect sense to trash all religions due to the intellectual dishonesty involved regardless of any relevent level of ‘evil.’
I just think it makes more sense to trash Islamic warmongering homicidal maniacs for being warmongering homicidal maniacs first and Islamic second. Especially when the person doing the trashing is religious themselves.
When you start off by talking about religion, it makes it very easy for people to dismiss you as attacking them solely based on religion and ignore the actual meat of the attack. In effect you are playing into their hands. The Imam can stand up in the Madrasa and say, ‘See they hate us because they are evil Christians and we follow the true word of God as revealed to Mohamed.’
[quote]
So what is your suggested solution then? I’m not talking about the whole Middle East conflict, just Guantanamo, what would you do?
First thing is this. Everything we need to know about the Geneva conventions can be learned from watching reruns of Hogans Heroes. Soldiers in uniform get humane treatment under Geneva convention.
Enemy agents caught out of uniform are classified as spies or saboteurs and can be executed. So a lot of those people there are lucky they haven’t been executed.
I think we should make an effort to sort out who is who quickly so we don’t hold any more there than we need to. But I don’t think we should just let potentially dangerous people go just because people in Europe want to whine or because Muslims are going to be pissed off. [/quote]
LOL at Hogan’s Heroes. It’s a bit tough to draw the line just at uniform. Not every country issues easy to distinguish uniforms to all combatants. But in general I agree with you, the tough thing is defining how long to hang on to potentially dangerous people. The problem is that people have been held for an extremely long time when the government knows that they have no chance or making a realistic case against them. The continuing trickle of negative PR around torture, abuse etc is probably more of a risk than any individual at this stage.