So, once again I’ve let myself get drawn into a conversation with a youngster where I try to rely on actual fact and they rely on the kinds of facts learned from online chat buddies during Call of Duty marathon sessions.
Long story short, my gal’s 15-year old kiddo had never heard of the 21 foot rule - that if an opponent with a knife is within 21 feet of an opponent with a holstered gun, the knife is a legitimate threat - and he flat-out doesn’t believe it to be true.
Admittedly, I may have slightly misrepresented the idea, since I’m not a gun guy and was describing what I thought I remembered reading somewhere. I said that if I have a drawn knife and you have a holstered gun, I’ll be able to cover 21 feet (which, for me, is about four big steps) and stab you before you draw, aim, and achieve a successful, lethal gunshot.
After I did some basic research, I found a clip of Dennis Tueller himself explaining the main idea behind the drill, that it’s for emphasizing tactical awareness, pointing out the reactionary gap, etc. Tueller also said something that I think really drove the main point home. He said that at that distance and in that situation, the best you can hope for is a tie (mutual injury and/or kills).
We’ll probably do a live test at some point (him with an airsoft pistol, me with a rubber training knife), even though he already “knows” the answer and how it’ll end up.
Does anyone have any input on the concept… as if it’ll be of any use in educating the little so and so? Any military/law enforcement guys have experience with this type of drill?
[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
Please video the live test. [/quote]
Ha. I should’ve seen that coming.
Tell you what… you promise to keep after Sickabs for that bench vid and any, any current pic of Count Rock, and I’ll be sure to video the “21 Foot Airsoft Showdown.”
[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
Please video the live test. [/quote]
Ha. I should’ve seen that coming.
Tell you what… you promise to keep after Sickabs for that bench vid and any, any current pic of Count Rock, and I’ll be sure to video the “21 Foot Airsoft Showdown.” ;)[/quote]
The 21’ rule is simply a rule of thumb that Mr. Tueller proposed while instructing policemen who encounter those with a knife. It’s not set in stone and your mileage will vary based on the shooter and the man with the knife.
I’ve done the drill in training with a holstered airsoft pistol vs. a rubber knife. The shooter draws when the man with the knife initiates his attack. Most of the class got slashed before putting a pellet on the attacker. Against a gun in the hand held at the side most were able to get a pellet on the attacker but still got slashed at the same time.
In reality if you attack with a knife you don’t telegraph your intentions from 21’ away. Additionally if you rely solely on drawing your pistol for defense you will likely get cut or killed. Knowing how to counter a knife while drawing or evading the attack is key to your winning the encounter.
I’m trained and good with a handgun and my rule would extend out farther then 21’ if I wanted to defend myself against a knife using my pistol.
[quote]hedo wrote:
The 21’ rule is simply a rule of thumb that Mr. Tueller proposed while instructing policemen who encounter those with a knife. It’s not set in stone and your mileage will vary based on the shooter and the man with the knife.
I’ve done the drill in training with a holstered airsoft pistol vs. a rubber knife. The shooter draws when the man with the knife initiates his attack. Most of the class got slashed before putting a pellet on the attacker. Against a gun in the hand held at the side most were able to get a pellet on the attacker but still got slashed at the same time.
In reality if you attack with a knife you don’t telegraph your intentions from 21’ away. Additionally if you rely solely on drawing your pistol for defense you will likely get cut or killed. Knowing how to counter a knife while drawing or evading the attack is key to your winning the encounter.
also you cant ensure that the knife man gets instantly stopped by the bullet, the adrenalin can take him to within striking range
[quote]hedo wrote:
I’ve done the drill in training with a holstered airsoft pistol vs. a rubber knife. The shooter draws when the man with the knife initiates his attack. Most of the class got slashed before putting a pellet on the attacker. Against a gun in the hand held at the side most were able to get a pellet on the attacker but still got slashed at the same time.[/quote]
This is pretty much what I’m expecting. Like Tueller said it’s, at best, a tie. I should have a video of the experiment by tomorrow night. If we can find his paintball pistol and holster, we might go that route for even less questionable results.
Another reason why one shouldn’t “argue” with kids: I’m now being told by the little whippersnapper that, not only do his airsoft forum buddies think I’m stupid for my proposal (even the ones that “were in the Army”), but you need to take into account the caliber of the gun. “If I shoot you with a .44 magnum or a sawed-off shotgun, you’re not going to cut me. Even if you do, I get stabbed once and survive, you’re blown away.”
[quote]Vegita wrote:
So… Is it then OK to bring a knife to a gunfight? Cause I always heard the opposite.
V[/quote]
Depends. At close quarters a man with a knife doesn’t have to be good, just determined, to hurt you.
A lot of motor skills go out the window in a fight, including drawing and firing your gun. Additionally the man with the gun, fixates on using the gun, often while being cut to death.
Don’t get me wrong I’ll take the glock over my knife any day, but at close quarter battle distances I assume I’m getting cut before I can fire, I’m just training to get cut on the forearm or hand and not the neck or other vital area.
As expected, I (the knife-wielder) reached the gunman pretty much every time.
First round, I got shot in the abdomen and shoulder. Round 2, I was unhit. Round 3, I was shot in the shoulder twice (and I disarmed him). Round 4, I did a Clyde Barrow impersonation. I blame having squatted earlier this morning.
Then we had his buddy take the pistol so kiddo could be the knifeman. Round 1, the gun-kid had never drawn from a holster before, so he didn’t get any hits. Round 2, he figured it out and nailed kiddo several times in the abdomen and back (back?? Yes, the back). Round 3, hoping to attack under the cover of smoke, kiddo was still shot multiple times.
The verdict, according to the youngster… “You would’ve dropped on the spot each time, especially if I used hollow points. Never would’ve gotten close to me.”
[quote]i work out wrote:
He shouldnt be able to have his hand on the gun or use an unlocked holster. At least make it concealed or use a locking holster like dem coppers do.[/quote]
He had a plastic buckle-type of snap on the gun, but after looking at the video, he may or may not have unclipped a bit early once or twice.
Not to mention his comment last night, “We should try it again tomorrow, since I didn’t have the safety on.” … … … … Facepalm goes here.
[quote]JLu wrote:
Haha what an idiot with the hollow point comment.[/quote]
As I said, kiddo’s 15 and learned all he knows about firearms from Call of Duty and Rainbow Six.
