Undocumented immigrants are a net boon to the economy. But don’t take my word for it; here’s the Cato Institute on the subject:
https://www.cato.org/blog/common-arguments-against-immigration
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Except being covered in blood doesn’t PROVE the existence of the murder by that person. The existence of an illegal immigrants by definition proves a crime was committed, otherwise they’d be called immigrants.
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It’s not semantics–it’s the law.
Are you sure? Because I can think of some (admittedly far-fetched) scenarios in which this would not be the case.
Please elaborate. I can’t think of a single scenario in which an illegal immigrant exists in this country and no laws were violated.
Now let’s run the numbers for the econony where instead of paying 42 million americans food stamps, many millions HUD and welfare etc…
We have a great many people off the dole if US firms HAVE to hire natives and workers with legit VISAs and pay them minimum wage and pay FICA, SS, unemployment etc… rather than $3/hr cash under the table. Also these employees are protected by OSHA and all the other safety and fair labor rules if they are on the books.
Less people on the dole. More Americans working. Yes, more expensive fruit and resteraunt meals and probably many other goods. Arguing the shadow economy is good for us is a bit disengenuous.
Why are you okay with exploiting 3rd worlders? Why do you hate brown people?!! (Tounge in cheek)
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Suppose someone was kidnapped and brought across the border against their will? No mens rea–>no crime.
(I told you it was far-fetched.)
From the Cato link:
- “Immigrants will take our jobs and lower our wages, especially hurting the poor.”
This is the most common argument and also the one with the greatest amount of evidence rebutting it. First, the displacement effect is small if it even affects natives at all. Immigrants are typically attracted to growing regions and they increase the supply and demand sides of the economy once they are there, expanding employment opportunities. Second, the debate over immigrant impacts on American wages is confined to the lower single digits – immigrants may increase the relative wages for some Americans by a tiny amount and decrease them by a larger amount for the few Americans who directly compete against them. Immigrants likely compete most directly against other immigrants so the effects on less-skilled native-born Americans might be very small or even positive."
Not only was a crime committed via kidnapping, but I would almost guarantee you could find legal language such that existing in this country without authorization is illegal. If it was ONLY illegal to come across the border without permission, the people who have let their green cards expire and stayed anyway wouldn’t be breaking the law.
Even in your example, crossing the border illegally = crime. If someone puts a gun to my head and forces me to drive through a pack of nuns, I have still broken the law. We have laws in place about being under duress that will provide some level of protection, but I have still very clearly broken a law.
The argument that illegal immigrants haven’t commit a crime is complete hogwash. If you want to argue the punishment vs crime metric, that’s fine. If you want to argue that the crime isn’t deserving of jailtime or should have the ability to still lead to citizenship, that’s fine. What you can’t do, is ignore the first half of the phrase “illegal immigrant,” because if a law hasn’t been broken, they’re just an immigrant.
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That’s okay, on principle they shouldn’t be allowed to stay. America did pretty fine without these invaders
Sincerely,
a US immigrant who spent thousands of dollars and waited a decade to immigrate legally
So the left leaning Cato Institute isn’t worried about immigrants competing with the people we pay not to work right now. That’s the problem. Permanent welfare recipients aren’t in the unemployment numbers. And they don’t earn ANY wages. So how do you study how their wages are effected by illegals.
High school dropouts with zero job skills are indeed competing directly with illegals for job opportunities. (Also felons). If companies were forced to hire only those legally permitted to work, and the dole were made less of a safety hammock and more of a safety net. Those people would work.
Also I reject most research done on illegal activity and shadow economies in general. You cannot get good data or survey material on illegal activity. Did they go out and pole contractors, house flippers, fruit farmers etc…“How many illegals do you employ? What do you pay them? How many hours do they work? Why not hire Americans?”
No business owner is going to answer that survey truthfully. Which brings me to another point. Hiring illegals involves DE FACTO money laundering and business tax FRAUD. You can’t have a line item on your income statement “cash wages for illegal labor”. So the revenues that pay those cash wages are likely hidden from the government a well. How much is the economy losing from all that fraud? You don’t know. Neither does the Cato Institue… because it’s hidden. It’s the black market.
Feel free to not answer this, but before today I didn’t know you were an immigrant. Mind sharing what part of the globe you hail from?
Canada
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Yes, but that crime was committed by the kidnapper, not the kidnapEE.
Is the fact of being present in the United States in violation of the immigration laws a crime?
No. The act of being present in the United States in violation of the immigration laws is not, standing alone, a crime. While federal immigration law does criminalize some actions that may be related to undocumented presence in the United States, undocumented presence alone is not a violation of federal criminal law. Thus, many believe that the term “illegal alien,” which may suggest a criminal violation, is inaccurate or misleading.
Clearly, you are incorrect in this.
I didn’t say they haven’t committed a crime. I merely pointed out that simply being present in the US undocumented is, absent special circumstances, a crime in and of itself.
“Left leaning”!!! I think the Cato Institute–perhaps the bastion of libertarian thought in the US, founded by no less that Murray Rothbard and the Koch brothers–would take great umbrage with that.
You are making assumptions, not citing data.
So you reject “most” research in this field? What sort of research are you willing to accept?
There are ways to research these topics and derive estimates. Too bad you dismiss such research out-of-hand.
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I remember form years ago who you are, and laugh every time someone calls you white supremacist.
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Okay. So being here illegally by itself isn’t technically a crime (although I’d bet everything I own with enough legal knowledge you could find a federal law stating such, or at the very least a state law from a border state).
Making decisions based on a subset of the illegal immigrant community that is so small that examples can’t even be made without an eyeroll is silly to me. Like I said before, if you want to argue the crime vs punishment metric, that’s fine. That being said, you can’t make decisions about something this large based on a .0001% scenario.
This seems to be a case of semantics vs common sense. Also arguing such a non issue distracts from your overall viewpoint, as it throws your intent into question (not directed at you, just a statement of how it’s perceived).
Here are some hard figures from 6/11 - 1/17 from Texas state police.
https://www.dps.texas.gov/administration/crime_records/pages/txCriminalAlienStatistics.htm
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If this is in defense of Trump’s absurd claim that the murder rate is the highest it’s been in 47 years, wrong.
Real quick, if a murder rate is 1% and grows to 2%, that’s a 100% increase. If a murder rate grows from 10% to 19%, that’s a 90% increase. Murder rate rising faster in the first scenario.
The lower a rate is, the lower the total number you need to see a % growth.
Edit: typo, i can’t math