There is no separation of the world and academics. That’s actually a woke position btw.
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Yes 16, 8, 6 (boy and 2 girls in that order)
Academic topics and the world need to be tied together especially at the high school level and above. How would you separate the two since you appear to believe there is a distinction?
Kids in public school have sex ed that discusses the function, consent, rape and more starting in middle school and continuing into the early part of high school. They are already aware of these topics but maybe not the consequences of something like rape. Reading a book about it can put it into perspective and highlight the atrocities especially with teacher led discussion (assuming the teacher knows what they are doing).
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Maybe you’re right, what are the consequences of a few banned books? Does it even matter?
It may matter a lot to some single issue voter in a swing state!
Now is the time to reach out to those people!
Slippery slope
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Interesting. And you’re legitimately ok with your 16 year old coming home with questions they learned about rape in school? Your 8 year old? Your 6 year old?
Where is the line? You mentioned 16 & 17 earlier, but then supported the argument by suggesting that because rape happens in the world it’s worth reading about in school.
8 year olds and 6 year olds get raped. Why shouldn’t they be learning about it too, or are you suggesting your six year old’s class should discuss anal rape?
If not, and I assume not, where is the line and why?
Why is this schools job, and not yours? I can’t imagine a world where a teacher should own this topic with my daughter, personally. Where does ownership of parenting intersect offloading world exposure to school for you? And do you believe you, as a parent, should have control over topics introduced to your kids via public schools?
As stated, I’m a non-believer but am aware Christianity is an actively practiced religion in our society. It’s something that happens, you could say. Would you be ok with the Bible in your kids school library? Christian apologist books?
Or what about mutilation and torture? These occur in society. Would it be appropriate for schools to showcase books detailing medieval torture methodologies? And if so, at what age?
You mentioned smut. Raunchy sex happens. Why is this the line, how do you define it and why?
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I got cleats!
I live in Florida, the whole education movement by DeSantis was backed in focusing on the STEM classes that will help kids in a technical world. Too much social engineering was being taught and the STEM skills were lagging.
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Yes, because he is capable of being sexually active and should understand.
Those books aren’t being taught at that level.
For those young kids, therapy is obviously more of an appropriate thing. You are talking the victim of a crime, versus understanding the human consequences with someone with mostly a mature brain. It’s really not the same.
You mean this as hyperbole I hope, no one is actually discussing these as topics in elementary school.
We are talking high school level here.
It’s not necessarily the schools job or mine, but I don’t think it should be automatically precluded from a possibly study just because it’s a sensitive topic.
To an extent yes. Do what I have to do for every single extra curricular my kids do now - sign a permission slip granting. I have to sign a permission slip for them to attend absolutely everything now in florida.
Medieval torture methods were discussed as part of my world history class in high school…
The intention of the work. Is it designed (like an adult “romance” book) to primarily cause feelings of arousal? If yes, it’s porn in written form. I don’t think a book discussing anal rape and how it’s used for power and control falls into that category.
That was a good cover, I have been in the school system here for over 8 years, there is actually less STEM and Arts being taught then when i first moved here or at least it appears that way in my district.
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My position is that schools focus on STEM, and even in the softer stuff like literature the focus should be on literary elements vs intentionally selecting content lessons under the guise of. School doesn’t exist to teach humanity or “life”, or shouldn’t. That’s my job.
If that’s a woke objective then I guess I agree with them on that particular issue. I think it’s fairly clear across posts on the website that I’m not a political Super Bowl team type.
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You’re intentionally snipping my comments to alter context for one-off replies.
I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions in the context they were asked.
I want to know how and why you draw some lines verses others, referencing your own logic of “it exists, which makes it age appropriate, therefore it should be taught”.
That’s what I did, it’s not altering context. I addressed your concerns.
That’s a gross simplification.Should it be taught or not is different from should it be possibly allowed to be taught? It could be covered as an elective at the high school level where parents are made aware of the syllabus and give permission for their kid to be in it.
Ha… wore them to school
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We already have a progressive tax system…how much more should it be
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Now we are back on track.
Regarding simplification, I’m applying your logic, and very directly.
How do you define where the line is?
You’re introducing selective participation as a guardrail, which is fine and makes sense in some cases. It does give some parental control anyways. It also demonstrates you realize there is a problem with mass exposure to sensitive topics and allows for a semblance of censorship.
So now we have a proposed Anal Rape elective course for high school kids, and parents get to sign off on participation. I’d say that is a win for parents for sure, but I’m still unclear how it’s a topic for discussion at school at all, especially when literary elements can be taught from books that don’t include anal rape.
What objection do you have to teaching the recognition of foreshadowing, for example, from a book that does not introduce the theme of anal rape?
So far you’ve directly defended the teaching of anal rape to kids because “it exists” so it’s presumably a valid topic. But, using your logic, it’s only valid for 16 and up, because in your estimation your 16 year old could “handle it”. But your defense was “it exists” so I would bring back your six year old, as rape exists for her/him too. It evidently was appalling to you by your response. It’s appalling to me too. But it’s your logic. Why is the line drawn at 16 when it’s a topic “that exists” at much younger ages too? Keep in mind neither age is a consenting adult age, and technically porn is still illegal for each. What’s the differentiation?
Adding to that, what if somebody decides their 6 year old should be exposed to the topic because “it exists”? You clearly disagree but who cares, your kid is along for the ride too?
Can we agree the fact that something exists doesn’t necessarily make it appropriate?
literary elements are not the only point of an English course. It should also teach examination of what is being read, critical thinking, and how the themes apply. I am going to go out on a limb and say the book isn’t 200 pages or horrible rape scenes and there are other topics covered as well.
You’re applying a generalization to a topic and missed what would generally be considered as acceptable by what the courts use known as the “reasonable person” standard (not exactly the same but I guess we didn’t lay down any ground rules or assumptions at the start).
The idea that these topics are being taught to elementary kids is a far right talking point to push their agenda. That’s not happening.
Of course that’s the case. I don’t believe I advocated for teaching that kind of stuff to young children, and I don’t know anyone who would, so it’s irrelevant to the conversation.
Well, we have laws that prohibit this.
It does. Western culture wouldn’t exist otherwise.
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Again, where is the line and how do you apply it?
One anal raping is fine for a 16 year old?
Can thematic application be derived without any anal rapings? Or is the theme of anal rape itself necessary to teach literary proficiency to 16 year olds?
I’ve been directly asking for your definition and support of “reasonable standard” and am ready to hear it.
I didn’t suggest they are. I’m asking you to defend your logic of 16 as a “reasonable standard” for exposure considering your argument was “it exists”. The request was an extrapolation of that logic as an exercise in applying elasticity broadly. Your reply was parental waivers, which is fine and I somewhat agree.
But, I don’t understand why a book not requiring a waiver for anal rape can’t be chosen. If you want your 16 year old to read anal rape books can you provide those? Why does the school, filled with other people’s kids too, have to be the source?
Perfect. So how do you decide what’s right or wrong? Parental waivers? Board elections? Morally neutral material for educational purposes?
I’m pretty sure anal rape is prohibited across the board. So we agree?
STEM is great but it only tells us what we are able to do. The other stuff tells us what we should do. STEM cannot tell us if abortion is wrong. It can keep someone alive with machines, but can’t tell us if we should pull the plug. STEM can’t tell us why communism is bad, or good. STEM can’t tell us who we should vote for.
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Right but I’m saying this isn’t school’s job.
It absolutely is. You aren’t educated without it. It’s why kids today, including college students know nothing. Schools avoid the real books that make us ask real questions. The books that teach real history and not phony narratives.
With that said, this particular book should not be read by a minor. It could be potentially traumatic for a child who has suffered sexual abuse.