If I am completely wrong about Trump, I will be the first to admit it. I will also admit if I am wrong that the date and time for his first post-COVID rally was completely based on the above.
(Great pics of his earlier “Conservative” days, by the way…)
I appreciate the straight-up answer. It seems to me that being anti-Trump is quite safe as long as you don’t work for Trump. As it should be. As much as you may not like the sight of open-carry protesters, they didn’t do anything to you or anyone else, did they?
Contrast that with what is becoming an increasingly common and more thoroughly pervasive “cancel culture”, where having the wrong opinion or saying the wrong thing, even if it was 10 years ago, is sufficient evidence for a “virtuous” mob to come after you. I don’t talk politics on my facebook page for a number of reasons, but fear consequences is the number one reason.
A good friend of mine, who confessed to me two weeks ago that he’s never voted in his life, started off a long post like this yesterday.
“The administration and its enablers across the country, blah blah blah, you’re all bad people, please be good people, in conclusion, Orange Man Bad.”
First off, what’s an “enabler”? Second off, if you didn’t vote, aren’t YOU an “enabler”? That’s besides the point, which is that opposing certain issues wrapped up in certain organizations isn’t merely a policy disagreement, it is a character judgement. In those situations, a conversation about policy isn’t possible. You can’t even get to an explanation of why anything on the BLM Portland’s list of demands will help anyone at all, let alone black people. You’ll get shouted down as a “racist” for even questioning it.
You have to take whatever’s coming from the left right now at face value, unchallenged, AND signal your support. Failure to signal is seen as being complicit in racism by some, including a family member of mine. I don’t think this is an uncommon story at all. We can watch higher-level politicians grappling with this nonsense right now, even as they enjoy security that they are allowing to be deprived from the people in most need of security.
“Gee, I better not come out too strong in favor of the police right now.” This is utter nonsense we’ve allowed to cultivate into mainstream thought, not because the idea is good, but because people are afraid to speak out against it.
Yes, Trump can be divisive, and more than most politicians. But if you assume bad faith in not just the president, but everyone who voted for him, everyone who plans to vote for him, everyone who failed to vote for someone else and whatever else constitutes “enabling”, you’re already choosing to be divided.
At that point there is no path to unification except by forcing your ideas on other people whether they like it or not, by any means possible. They’re bad people with bad intentions, after all. Just like the Nazis, which many, many people believe they are fighting right now in the USA.
The notion of “tolerance” has been deeply perverted. It doesn’t mean “celebrate” or “promote”, as if not liking the idea of Drag Queen Story hour in front of toddlers makes you a bigot. Being tolerant means you acknowledge disagreement on things like politics, faith, parenting, priorities and every other facet of our lives, and then go about your life while leaving everyone else alone to live theirs.
We are becoming deeply intolerant.
I believe it’s much more than that but I can appreciate that line of thinking as well. I don’t believe anyone needs to apologize for being a race. To me the people Trump has surrounded himself with aren’t people who just don’t want to apologize for being white. I think Trump or Team Trump recognized that much like evangelicals all aspects of the right that vote or support you count.
I don’t think he’s an actual white supremacist. He’s a Trump supremacist. He probably views almost all whites as equally inferior. But I think it’s simplifying things to say his significant appeal was only built on not apologizing. He’s not the only Republican who has done that in the last 20 years.
“Keep them out, send them back, ban those who believe that” is very appealing to aspects of the right. I don’t think the language was an accident.
But I’m not going to attempt to deny that the left isn’t attempting to bury themselves with some of the things here you’ve pointed out.
Trump has no ideology. If the people around him do, it’s because he likes flatterers (he never read The Prince) and is naive. Did Trump use Bannon to help him get elected or did Bannon use Trump to push his ideas to a wider audience (and make more money)?
Allowed to be around him perhaps would be a better. I agree Trump himself has no true north or anything. He only cares about adoration. I mean arguing about intentions may be difficult, but then much like the rest of this thread we’re basically saying Trumps far too stupid to have done any of this on purpose. Which true or not doesn’t sound like a ringing endorsement for a President.
But I don’t think he’s all stupid by any means and just like I don’t think he magically turned into a devout Christian I do think he knows the way to talk to these right wing groups. You don’t need to study scripture or even care about the ideals of the country. But you do need to hold a Bible up from time to time or hug a flag so they won’t question anything.
Isn’t this the same thinking behind those who use words like libtard or repeat the nonsensical line, “liberalism is a mental illness”? Or, telling people who are pro-choice that they want to murder babies?
By extremists on both sides.
Haha, now the narrative is “trump admits he and his rally offensive to black Americans, complies with liberal demands and moves date”.
It was a no-win for him. His staff really blew it on this one by originally scheduling it.
I’d say it is, but I don’t know of anyone in my life or in the news who is worried about the consequences of disagreeing with conservatives beyond getting called a “libtard”. There’s no concerns over job loss, not being able to see family, etc. that I am aware of.
I’m not saying it doesn’t happen somewhere, but I don’t see mayors of major cities, celebrities, major corporations and the like showing deference out of fear to mobs of people shaking Thomas Sowell books at them.
What does right-wing intolerance look like to you, today?
I think great strides have been made with regards to conservative acceptance of gays, non-Christians, you-name-it. The Christian Conservatives were a lot more powerful and influential when I was growing up, which was probably one of the biggest reasons I was such an adamant liberal at the time. They still are quite powerful, but like I said, I think a lot of good strides have been made over time in that regard.
For me being a liberal at the time had nothing to do with policy and everything to do with cultural and social reasons.
It’s actually once again an easy fix that you could even use to your advantage. You could deliberately use your speech to talk about America’s and Tulsa’s history here and talk about progress and unity. Like I’ve always said speaking during crisis isn’t that hard and you could throw something together for Trump to knock this out of the park.
Of course this hinges on the fact that Trump might want to stay on subject or something. He could read a careful speech and then probably fuck it up by saying “so you see whites aren’t supreme. But I am supreme some are saying and I’m white so who knows maybe something there. I don’t know people are saying.”
But the opportunity at least would be there.
Anti pro-choice. Against gay marriage. Anti (brown people) immigration. These are things that go beyond words to attempts at becoming legislation.
Well yeah, if he nailed it with a poignant speech about diversity and coming together as a nation he could literally lockup the election that day… But striking that tone would be totally counter to everything he has done this far.
I’d agree. Good examples.
It’s a good thing the people who are intolerant about that stuff aren’t occupying themselves with ruining the lives of people who disagree with them, isn’t it?
Depends what we’re talking about. I would say many companies even before all this would possibly part ways with someone who they viewed as not representative of them. I don’t imagine a lot of us could say some of the things that have gotten people fired at our jobs and been fine?
I think plenty examples exist of this taken to extremes (such is the nature of the internet) but consequences for speech or behavior isn’t exactly new. And it’s not just a hallmark of the left.
How many of us could speak like the President and face no consequences at our job? Maybe the people who work by themselves?
Cough… Kapernick… Cough.
I would say trying to legislate their beliefs would in fact ruin lives.
Such are the consequences of many policies, which is why policies and their consequences are important to understand.
The rally has been rescheduled. This IMO is a good move on Trump’s part.
I want to thank you guys, and apologize to two.
Do you know why I often put “Thoughts?/Opinions?” at the end of a thread I may have started or at the ends of a post? Because I come here mostly to learn. And learn I do, from all of you. This thread is a prime example. Now some particular people.
Thanks, @zecarlo, for calling me out. I started this thread asking “Why?”…and it could have been no more than his (Trump’s) staff seeing a Red State opening to the Pandemic; with a strong Trump following (including the Governor) and an open, 19,000-plus seat facility. It seemed odd that they would not know what the date and town meant, but so what? And if they DID, so what? My “mind-reading” can sometimes have me over-thinking things.
Apologies to @treco (for the same reasons above).
Apologies AND thanks to @twojarslave. You are much more analytical and much less emotional about these things than me. And I say that as a good thing. Emotion can cloud judgment. And as I have said in the past; my feelings are emotionally driven by the (mostly) Conservative treatment of President Obama vs.how Trump is judged and treated. It is FAR from being “in-kind”. So be it. You cheer for your Team and Boo at the other.
With that said, my frustration should NOT be directed at some amazing posters like you, @twojarslave, from whom I can learn a lot. You guys may not know it; but you all are an amazing bunch of people with amazing insights. “Bullshit” should not be my response when you share one of those insights.
I’m torn right now. The Left is going Ape-shit-off-the-edge, and the Right is going Ape-shit-off -the-edge, being lead by a President whom I think we can all agree is anything but boring.
So where does that leave our Country?
(Thanks, guys. And I hope that you all continue to share your insights).
I didn’t call you out. This forum is a little buggy right now so it was probably a different poster.
