TRT to Banned Soon?

Off Topic
101

[quote]therajraj wrote:
What exactly is the downside of jumping on TRT at a young age (21+) ?

4-6 weeks of brain fog and downward move when coming off?

[/quote]

First, I didn’t take this thread topic to be related to taking testosterone as a enhancement cycle that would end in four to six weeks. I took it to be way of life.

Second, the endocrine system is a complex system of feedback loops. You take extra of one hormone and other hormones are sure to get out of whack.

When I was experimenting with the Test cream I got I was doing quite a bit of reading on the TRT forum. There’s a well known member there named KSman. I’d bet cold hard cash that KSman knows more than most endocrinologists about this kind of shit and KSman screwed himself up.

He stated in that forum that he screwed up his pituitary. If KSman screws up, how the hell is some 20 year old not going to screw up? How is anyone under the care of some doctor who doesn’t really give a shit and hasn’t really researched it past having some cute sales rep take him out for lunch and talking a little bit about how her companies product should be used?

102

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
This is not a question of what should be allowed and to what extent it should be allowed. This is about rules set by the organisation running the competition and the fact that competitors choose to take part in such competitions under the assumption that these rules will be enforced.

Edit

The reasons behind the rules may be debatable, but whether one should follow them or not should not be.[/quote]

Except as per this quote:

You should feel ashamed for following the rules, because even though you’re following them, you’re breaking them in spirit.
[/quote]

I’m not following your line of logic.

The rules state the competitor has to be free of synthetic testosterone. The method of testing varies.

103

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
This is not a question of what should be allowed and to what extent it should be allowed. This is about rules set by the organisation running the competition and the fact that competitors choose to take part in such competitions under the assumption that these rules will be enforced.

Edit

The reasons behind the rules may be debatable, but whether one should follow them or not should not be.[/quote]

Except as per this quote:

You should feel ashamed for following the rules, because even though you’re following them, you’re breaking them in spirit.
[/quote]

I’m not following your line of logic.

The rules state the competitor has to be free of synthetic testosterone. The method of testing varies.[/quote]

The rules for what? WADA testing(which is what most major competitions emulate) begins with a test:epitest ratio evaluation, which a TRT patient is probably passing easily, and even if they aren’t, someone who is truly ‘low T’(like, hypogonadism, sub 300 ng/dl) would probably not find a lot of difficulty getting a TUE from most organizations outside of the Olympics themselves which are extremely strict.

104

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
This is not a question of what should be allowed and to what extent it should be allowed. This is about rules set by the organisation running the competition and the fact that competitors choose to take part in such competitions under the assumption that these rules will be enforced.

Edit

The reasons behind the rules may be debatable, but whether one should follow them or not should not be.[/quote]

Except as per this quote:

You should feel ashamed for following the rules, because even though you’re following them, you’re breaking them in spirit.
[/quote]

I’m not following your line of logic.

The rules state the competitor has to be free of synthetic testosterone. The method of testing varies.[/quote]

The rules for what? WADA testing(which is what most major competitions emulate) begins with a test:epitest ratio evaluation, which a TRT patient is probably passing easily, and even if they aren’t, someone who is truly ‘low T’(like, hypogonadism, sub 300 ng/dl) would probably not find a lot of difficulty getting a TUE from most organizations outside of the Olympics themselves which are extremely strict.[/quote]

Exogeneously administered testosterone is a substance on the WADA ban list.

It is also a banned substance in tested meets. Therefore a competitor breaks the rules if he competes in such a meet on TRT unless express permission is obtained from the the organisor, or the rules allow for such exceptions.

Passing a test used to detect exogeneous testosterone despite having exogeneous testosterone in your system does not mean the rules aren’t broken. It means there is no evidence that you are breaking the rules. And the test sucks.

If an organisation running a natural competition expressly states that all competitors, natural or unnatural, may take part as long as their testosterone levels fall within normal range, no rule is being broken.

105

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
This is not a question of what should be allowed and to what extent it should be allowed. This is about rules set by the organisation running the competition and the fact that competitors choose to take part in such competitions under the assumption that these rules will be enforced.

Edit

The reasons behind the rules may be debatable, but whether one should follow them or not should not be.[/quote]

Except as per this quote:

You should feel ashamed for following the rules, because even though you’re following them, you’re breaking them in spirit.
[/quote]

I’m not following your line of logic.

The rules state the competitor has to be free of synthetic testosterone. The method of testing varies.[/quote]

The rules for what? WADA testing(which is what most major competitions emulate) begins with a test:epitest ratio evaluation, which a TRT patient is probably passing easily, and even if they aren’t, someone who is truly ‘low T’(like, hypogonadism, sub 300 ng/dl) would probably not find a lot of difficulty getting a TUE from most organizations outside of the Olympics themselves which are extremely strict.[/quote]

Exogeneously administered testosterone is a substance on the WADA ban list.

It is also a banned substance in tested meets. Therefore a competitor breaks the rules if he competes in such a meet on TRT unless express permission is obtained from the the organisor, or the rules allow for such exceptions.

Passing a test used to detect exogeneous testosterone despite having exogeneous testosterone in your system does not mean the rules aren’t broken. It means there is no evidence that you are breaking the rules. And the test sucks.

If an organisation running a natural competition expressly states that all competitors, natural or unnatural, may take part as long as their testosterone levels fall within normal range, no rule is being broken.[/quote]

I realize I worded my response poorly and figured that would be your response.

Matty is not competing at the Olympics. Now, I have no idea what the rules of the federation(s) he competed in are as far as TUE/value required to be considered a positive test. It’s entirely possible that he is not breaking the rules of his competition, but per the above quote he should still be ashamed anyways. In fact he(and any hypothetical TRT patient) was shamed before anyone asked for details about his competition and its ruleset and guidelines for testing.

Basically the only issue in all of this is that TRT is far harder to get an exemption for because people who actually cheat the system fuck it up for people who legitimately need it. Nobody would blink if a person puffed an inhaler, they’d assume they had a TUE(except maybe in mega endurance events where an inhaler would be like, the testosterone of PEDs). But god forbid you got your natural T levels to 600 ng/dl from 200, and boosted your T:E ratio to a daunting 2:1. You’re clearly going to smoke those poor, ‘actually natural,’ ignorant to your massive advantage fools you are competing against.

Please.

106

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
This is not a question of what should be allowed and to what extent it should be allowed. This is about rules set by the organisation running the competition and the fact that competitors choose to take part in such competitions under the assumption that these rules will be enforced.

Edit

The reasons behind the rules may be debatable, but whether one should follow them or not should not be.[/quote]

Except as per this quote:

You should feel ashamed for following the rules, because even though you’re following them, you’re breaking them in spirit.
[/quote]

I’m not following your line of logic.

The rules state the competitor has to be free of synthetic testosterone. The method of testing varies.[/quote]

The rules for what? WADA testing(which is what most major competitions emulate) begins with a test:epitest ratio evaluation, which a TRT patient is probably passing easily, and even if they aren’t, someone who is truly ‘low T’(like, hypogonadism, sub 300 ng/dl) would probably not find a lot of difficulty getting a TUE from most organizations outside of the Olympics themselves which are extremely strict.[/quote]

Exogeneously administered testosterone is a substance on the WADA ban list.

It is also a banned substance in tested meets. Therefore a competitor breaks the rules if he competes in such a meet on TRT unless express permission is obtained from the the organisor, or the rules allow for such exceptions.

Passing a test used to detect exogeneous testosterone despite having exogeneous testosterone in your system does not mean the rules aren’t broken. It means there is no evidence that you are breaking the rules. And the test sucks.

If an organisation running a natural competition expressly states that all competitors, natural or unnatural, may take part as long as their testosterone levels fall within normal range, no rule is being broken.[/quote]

I realize I worded my response poorly and figured that would be your response.

Matty is not competing at the Olympics. Now, I have no idea what the rules of the federation(s) he competed in are as far as TUE/value required to be considered a positive test. It’s entirely possible that he is not breaking the rules of his competition, but per the above quote he should still be ashamed anyways. In fact he(and any hypothetical TRT patient) was shamed before anyone asked for details about his competition and its ruleset and guidelines for testing.

Basically the only issue in all of this is that TRT is far harder to get an exemption for because people who actually cheat the system fuck it up for people who legitimately need it. Nobody would blink if a person puffed an inhaler, they’d assume they had a TUE(except maybe in mega endurance events where an inhaler would be like, the testosterone of PEDs). But god forbid you got your natural T levels to 600 ng/dl from 200, and boosted your T:E ratio to a daunting 2:1. You’re clearly going to smoke those poor, ‘actually natural,’ ignorant to your massive advantage fools you are competing against.

Please.[/quote]

But, again, you’re debating the validity of the rules, which I’m not.

EDIT

And again it does not matter what form of test he passed if the rules state exogeneous testostosterone is banned. It is logically impossible to not be breaking the rules in his case.

And what on earth are you talking when bringing up inhalers? I use one so that I don’t DIE from bronchial constriction. It does not increase lung capacity. If there was a ban on the in a sporting event, I simply won’t take part.

[quote]You should feel ashamed for following the rules, because even though you’re following them, you’re breaking them in spirit.
[/quote]

If you had wriiten:

“You should not be ashamed for breaking the rules, because even though you’re breaking them, you’re following them in spirit”

I would have agreed in MattyXL’s case as he says he is participating and not actually competing against others.

107

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
This is not a question of what should be allowed and to what extent it should be allowed. This is about rules set by the organisation running the competition and the fact that competitors choose to take part in such competitions under the assumption that these rules will be enforced.

Edit

The reasons behind the rules may be debatable, but whether one should follow them or not should not be.[/quote]

Except as per this quote:

You should feel ashamed for following the rules, because even though you’re following them, you’re breaking them in spirit.
[/quote]

I’m not following your line of logic.

The rules state the competitor has to be free of synthetic testosterone. The method of testing varies.[/quote]

The rules for what? WADA testing(which is what most major competitions emulate) begins with a test:epitest ratio evaluation, which a TRT patient is probably passing easily, and even if they aren’t, someone who is truly ‘low T’(like, hypogonadism, sub 300 ng/dl) would probably not find a lot of difficulty getting a TUE from most organizations outside of the Olympics themselves which are extremely strict.[/quote]

Exogeneously administered testosterone is a substance on the WADA ban list.

It is also a banned substance in tested meets. Therefore a competitor breaks the rules if he competes in such a meet on TRT unless express permission is obtained from the the organisor, or the rules allow for such exceptions.

Passing a test used to detect exogeneous testosterone despite having exogeneous testosterone in your system does not mean the rules aren’t broken. It means there is no evidence that you are breaking the rules. And the test sucks.

If an organisation running a natural competition expressly states that all competitors, natural or unnatural, may take part as long as their testosterone levels fall within normal range, no rule is being broken.[/quote]

I realize I worded my response poorly and figured that would be your response.

Matty is not competing at the Olympics. Now, I have no idea what the rules of the federation(s) he competed in are as far as TUE/value required to be considered a positive test. It’s entirely possible that he is not breaking the rules of his competition, but per the above quote he should still be ashamed anyways. In fact he(and any hypothetical TRT patient) was shamed before anyone asked for details about his competition and its ruleset and guidelines for testing.

Basically the only issue in all of this is that TRT is far harder to get an exemption for because people who actually cheat the system fuck it up for people who legitimately need it. Nobody would blink if a person puffed an inhaler, they’d assume they had a TUE(except maybe in mega endurance events where an inhaler would be like, the testosterone of PEDs). But god forbid you got your natural T levels to 600 ng/dl from 200, and boosted your T:E ratio to a daunting 2:1. You’re clearly going to smoke those poor, ‘actually natural,’ ignorant to your massive advantage fools you are competing against.

Please.[/quote]

But, again, you’re debating the validity of the rules, which I’m not.

[quote]You should feel ashamed for following the rules, because even though you’re following them, you’re breaking them in spirit.
[/quote]

If you had wriiten:

“You should not be ashamed for breaking the rules, because even though you’re breaking them, you’re following them in spirit”

I would have agreed in MattyXL’s case as he says he is participating and not actually competing against others.[/quote]

I suppose I should probably just stop quoting you because you’re not really who I have any debate with. You say rules are rules, and don’t necessarily agree with them, and that’s valid.

108

^What I’m saying is, other participants rely on these rules to decide on whether they should take part or not. It is not about just the person on TRT. Look at EyeDentist’s posts for an example.

109

[quote]on edge wrote:

First, I didn’t take this thread topic to be related to taking testosterone as a enhancement cycle that would end in four to six weeks. I took it to be way of life. [/quote]

Not what I meant. I’m saying that if you go on TRT and find it’s not for you it will take 4-6 weeks to restart your natural production and during that period you’ll be depressed and experience brain fog

[quote]on edge wrote:
Second, the endocrine system is a complex system of feedback loops. You take extra of one hormone and other hormones are sure to get out of whack.

When I was experimenting with the Test cream I got I was doing quite a bit of reading on the TRT forum. There’s a well known member there named KSman. I’d bet cold hard cash that KSman knows more than most endocrinologists about this kind of shit and KSman screwed himself up.

He stated in that forum that he screwed up his pituitary. If KSman screws up, how the hell is some 20 year old not going to screw up? How is anyone under the care of some doctor who doesn’t really give a shit and hasn’t really researched it past having some cute sales rep take him out for lunch and talking a little bit about how her companies product should be used?[/quote]

How often does this happen to people on TRT or taking steroids in general? Is it common?

110

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Your natural levels are whatever the hand nature delt you at any given point in time. Eveyone thinks they have a good reason for doing a wrong thing. Right now there are any number of people involved in affiars that violate the ‘exclusive’ agreement they have with another; they rationilize them for a variety of reasons; that doesn’t mean they are anything less than a betrayal of honor. The path of least resistance is what water does when it’s rolling down hill; not the path an ethical man chooses to take. [/quote]

Oh for crying out loud, comparing TRT use with adultery?

C’mon man.[/quote]

Wow wow wow. Ignorance and being naive. What a post. I normally respect BC’s posts but this is too much.
[/quote]

I guess I’m naive & ignorant too. Got a picture of this 20 year old with the test levels of a girl? 'Cause Im skeptical on top of naive and ignorant.[/quote]

Yes. I have lots. I take lots of pics of myself[/quote]

Ryan, after giving this some thought I have to conclude that anyone under the age of 40 who hasn’t had some type of tragic accident or has had some kind of genetic disorder like kleinfelter’s is doing themselves a huge disservice by going on TRT.

If your T levels were legitimately as low as you claim at 20 years old, there was something else going on besides your testicles just up and quitting on the testosterone production. Could it actually be that you were under tons of stress in college, pulling regular all-nighters and maybe partying a lot on top of that? Could it be you had some undiagnosed illness like Epstein Bar?

Going on a life time of TRT starting at 20 over what may have been a passing circumstance in ones life is crazy.

Did you at least get your test monitored for many months before starting TRT? I think it should be malpractice for any doctor to prescribe testosterone to a 20 year old without previously monitoring the patients testosterone for at least 12 months while ruling out possible causes of low T.

[/quote]

I’m in my third year of medical school I have yet to study past 8pm. The only time I’ve feel stress was last may for a week when I started studying for the step 1 other than that my life has been quite stress free, also just a personality trait. Yes I was symptomatic for 1.5 years and monitored for 6 months after my 1.5 years of Sx. So 2 years of hell in total.

So mr doctor edge please give me a good reason and some medical back up as to why there are only 3-5 conditions that warrant TRT before 40. What are the downsides? Please be thorough.

111

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

First, I didn’t take this thread topic to be related to taking testosterone as a enhancement cycle that would end in four to six weeks. I took it to be way of life. [/quote]

Not what I meant. I’m saying that if you go on TRT and find it’s not for you it will take 4-6 weeks to restart your natural production and during that period you’ll be depressed and experience brain fog

[quote]on edge wrote:
Second, the endocrine system is a complex system of feedback loops. You take extra of one hormone and other hormones are sure to get out of whack.

When I was experimenting with the Test cream I got I was doing quite a bit of reading on the TRT forum. There’s a well known member there named KSman. I’d bet cold hard cash that KSman knows more than most endocrinologists about this kind of shit and KSman screwed himself up.

He stated in that forum that he screwed up his pituitary. If KSman screws up, how the hell is some 20 year old not going to screw up? How is anyone under the care of some doctor who doesn’t really give a shit and hasn’t really researched it past having some cute sales rep take him out for lunch and talking a little bit about how her companies product should be used?[/quote]

How often does this happen to people on TRT or taking steroids in general? Is it common?
[/quote]

There is not one peer reviewed study that shows the endocrine system can’t come back after being shit down barring any outside issues that just happened to manifest during shutdown.

112

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

First, I didn’t take this thread topic to be related to taking testosterone as a enhancement cycle that would end in four to six weeks. I took it to be way of life. [/quote]

Not what I meant. I’m saying that if you go on TRT and find it’s not for you it will take 4-6 weeks to restart your natural production and during that period you’ll be depressed and experience brain fog

[quote]on edge wrote:
Second, the endocrine system is a complex system of feedback loops. You take extra of one hormone and other hormones are sure to get out of whack.

When I was experimenting with the Test cream I got I was doing quite a bit of reading on the TRT forum. There’s a well known member there named KSman. I’d bet cold hard cash that KSman knows more than most endocrinologists about this kind of shit and KSman screwed himself up.

He stated in that forum that he screwed up his pituitary. If KSman screws up, how the hell is some 20 year old not going to screw up? How is anyone under the care of some doctor who doesn’t really give a shit and hasn’t really researched it past having some cute sales rep take him out for lunch and talking a little bit about how her companies product should be used?[/quote]

How often does this happen to people on TRT or taking steroids in general? Is it common?
[/quote]

There is not one peer reviewed study that shows the endocrine system can’t come back after being shit down barring any outside issues that just happened to manifest during shutdown.
[/quote]

There are outliers. I did read a thread about a guy who never recovered his libido from Deca and it’s been 5 years… but most people seem to experience manageable sides

113

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
It’s Newsmax. It’s alarmist in order to sell stupid supplements for an advertiser. Think of Newsmax as a political version of whatever a certain supplement company/site/mag formerly(?) run by a man nicknamed “ButtPlug” (not this site, although Mr. Patterson certainly knows of whom I speak).

Any site that props up the toe-sucker (Google it), Dick Morris, who is both corrupt and wrong on every prediction, as an authority has to be looked at with a jaded eye.[/quote]

Bingo.

114

is this real?

115

maybe. not TRT.

116

This is really a non-issue.

There may be some advertising changes, labeling changes, and/or changes in insurance coverage. The FDA wants to see some underlying pathology, not just low T is and of itself.

Doctors can always just prescribe the drugs how they see fit.

I’ve been on 100 mgs of T per week for nearly 2 years and I love it. For me, it’s just another piece in the health optimization puzzle. For the last 4 years, I’ve recorded my diet, gotten DEXA scans 1-2x a year, tried out various eating regimens, trained hard, supplemented with fish oil/CoQ10/D/B12, gotten biannual CBC/hormone panels, recorded my BP, et al all in the name of health OPTIMIZATION. I’m not interested in being average - average sucks. I saw “average” at the Appleton, WI Oktoberfest I was at last weekend and it ain’t pretty.

TRT took my TT from 230 up to the mid-600s. In my case, the benefits are greater than the labs would imply. My theory is that TRT eliminates the transient peaks and valleys in T levels and therefore creates a more optimal climate for building muscle by increasing the area under the curve.

All of those things that would typically decrease T (stress/illness/hangover/etc) no longer matter. I could watch The Notebook while holding a crying baby and finish off a case of Miller Lite and I would know my T levels would still be in the 600s.

So for me, it’s a not-insubstantial piece of the health optimization puzzle and I don’t regret it for a minute.

117

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

First, I didn’t take this thread topic to be related to taking testosterone as a enhancement cycle that would end in four to six weeks. I took it to be way of life. [/quote]

Not what I meant. I’m saying that if you go on TRT and find it’s not for you it will take 4-6 weeks to restart your natural production and during that period you’ll be depressed and experience brain fog

[quote]on edge wrote:
Second, the endocrine system is a complex system of feedback loops. You take extra of one hormone and other hormones are sure to get out of whack.

When I was experimenting with the Test cream I got I was doing quite a bit of reading on the TRT forum. There’s a well known member there named KSman. I’d bet cold hard cash that KSman knows more than most endocrinologists about this kind of shit and KSman screwed himself up.

He stated in that forum that he screwed up his pituitary. If KSman screws up, how the hell is some 20 year old not going to screw up? How is anyone under the care of some doctor who doesn’t really give a shit and hasn’t really researched it past having some cute sales rep take him out for lunch and talking a little bit about how her companies product should be used?[/quote]

How often does this happen to people on TRT or taking steroids in general? Is it common?
[/quote]

There is not one peer reviewed study that shows the endocrine system can’t come back after being shit down barring any outside issues that just happened to manifest during shutdown.
[/quote]

There are outliers. I did read a thread about a guy who never recovered his libido from Deca and it’s been 5 years… but most people seem to experience manageable sides [/quote]

Libdo is much more complicated than endocrine system or testosterone or its derivatives

118

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
This is really a non-issue.

There may be some advertising changes, labeling changes, and/or changes in insurance coverage. The FDA wants to see some underlying pathology, not just low T is and of itself.

Doctors can always just prescribe the drugs how they see fit.

I’ve been on 100 mgs of T per week for nearly 2 years and I love it. For me, it’s just another piece in the health optimization puzzle. For the last 4 years, I’ve recorded my diet, gotten DEXA scans 1-2x a year, tried out various eating regimens, trained hard, supplemented with fish oil/CoQ10/D/B12, gotten biannual CBC/hormone panels, recorded my BP, et al all in the name of health OPTIMIZATION. I’m not interested in being average - average sucks. I saw “average” at the Appleton, WI Oktoberfest I was at last weekend and it ain’t pretty.

TRT took my TT from 230 up to the mid-600s. In my case, the benefits are greater than the labs would imply. My theory is that TRT eliminates the transient peaks and valleys in T levels and therefore creates a more optimal climate for building muscle by increasing the area under the curve.

All of those things that would typically decrease T (stress/illness/hangover/etc) no longer matter. I could watch The Notebook while holding a crying baby and finish off a case of Miller Lite and I would know my T levels would still be in the 600s.

So for me, it’s a not-insubstantial piece of the health optimization puzzle and I don’t regret it for a minute.

[/quote]

You were in appleton? Cool I am in Marshfield for now

119

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
This is really a non-issue.

There may be some advertising changes, labeling changes, and/or changes in insurance coverage. The FDA wants to see some underlying pathology, not just low T is and of itself.

Doctors can always just prescribe the drugs how they see fit.

I’ve been on 100 mgs of T per week for nearly 2 years and I love it. For me, it’s just another piece in the health optimization puzzle. For the last 4 years, I’ve recorded my diet, gotten DEXA scans 1-2x a year, tried out various eating regimens, trained hard, supplemented with fish oil/CoQ10/D/B12, gotten biannual CBC/hormone panels, recorded my BP, et al all in the name of health OPTIMIZATION. I’m not interested in being average - average sucks. I saw “average” at the Appleton, WI Oktoberfest I was at last weekend and it ain’t pretty.

TRT took my TT from 230 up to the mid-600s. In my case, the benefits are greater than the labs would imply. My theory is that TRT eliminates the transient peaks and valleys in T levels and therefore creates a more optimal climate for building muscle by increasing the area under the curve.

All of those things that would typically decrease T (stress/illness/hangover/etc) no longer matter. I could watch The Notebook while holding a crying baby and finish off a case of Miller Lite and I would know my T levels would still be in the 600s.

So for me, it’s a not-insubstantial piece of the health optimization puzzle and I don’t regret it for a minute.

[/quote]

Pangy I love your posts, I really do

120

What form of T were you taking Pangloss?