[quote]durak wrote:
Really? MY TRT doc has me on
200mg cyp (100 2x week),
250mg HCG eod
12.5mg Aromasin eod (or .25 arimadex eod)
I assume we cannot talk price so lets say it no where near what you are talking about.[/quote]
Nice name (durak), but don’t be one with this TRT stuff. Are you sure you want to take Aromasin? If you drive your estrogen too low, you could mess up your joints and libido.
Otherwise, seems like a good regimen if you can control E2.
[quote]bigdawg011 wrote:
[quote]durak wrote:
Really? MY TRT doc has me on
200mg cyp (100 2x week),
250mg HCG eod
12.5mg Aromasin eod (or .25 arimadex eod)
I assume we cannot talk price so lets say it no where near what you are talking about.[/quote]
Nice name (durak), but don’t be one with this TRT stuff. Are you sure you want to take Aromasin? If you drive your estrogen too low, you could mess up your joints and libido.
Otherwise, seems like a good regimen if you can control E2.[/quote]
Thx bigdawg. My total test was at 240 before I started TRT. I also take a lot of time to educate myself about the whole process. So no fool here. As for the Aromasin, the arimadex was not getting the job done and on Aromasin my E2 is 24. I will get rechecked soon to make sure it is not too strong.
[quote]Hammerfists wrote:
Where the hell do you guys find this stuff? I have friends that use different types but I’m afraid to take their advice. I live in Everett, Wa just north of Seattle. Any tips on a legal way to go about this is appreciated. PM please!![/quote]
This is medical use, not gear. Some here, who are also young men, need TRT because of misadventure with gear. Stupidity and ignorance see to be very synergistic. Help yourself!
i been injecting
250mg of testosterone enanathe (primoteston )a week divided in two 125mg( .5ml) shots + 1.5mg arimidex + 1ml hcg once a week
previously was on androgel and felt a lot better lost of libido and energy , with the injections felt good like the first week but after that i have started to go back to my low libido , low energy state.
i been self injecting at the thigh with .5ml insulin needles.
for reference
wait size 38 inches
heigth 185cm
about 105kg
lots of abdominal fat
little muscle on arms
pre trt testosterone levels
3.87ng/ml
range
1.5-11.38ng/ml
any ideas i would like to keep with the injections because of the price of androgel but they seem innefective
Inject hCG EOD, 250iu EOD suggested. Do not state ml’s that is not the dose. State in iu’s.
You need to have current TT, FT and E2 results to know what is going on and what to do. Your estrogen levels may be too high. Your TT and FT levels may not be high enough IF you are hyper metabolizer of testosterone. There are some who need 300mg/week to have basic high-normal T levels. Elevated E2 can negate the effects of high T levels. E2 management is often mission critical.
You might also be feeling the effects of less DHT moving from transdermal to injected.
Please create your own post outside of this sticky.
Read this sticky some more to get recommendations about dose and frequency for Arimidex/anastrozole and T. Anastrozole once per week is not going to work properly. Make changes and then do lab work after 3-4 weeks. You can do tests on your own if need be.
Hammerfists
If you want to know where to quote “get this stuff” first you need to be tested - blood test, this STUFF is not to be abused!
Pay attention to KSman… and others as well.
OK I said my say NOW -------- The best way to find out which doctors prescribe what, is to call the Pharmacy’s around your area, pharmacist are more the willing to listen and divulge this information why not your a potential $$ maker for them, didn’t I post this already?
Sorry KSman did I do it again -------- hyjack this thread? Y/N
G-Tone
Dear KSman:
After being on pellets(too expensive), now on T. Cyp. injecting 50 mg. twice per week(Mon/Thurs). Just got my recent labs and am a little puzzled. Would be most appreciative of your insights. TT = 921, FT = 21.1, E2 = 42.8 (when on the pellets it was 27), DHEA-S = 143.3
SHGB = 45.2. It’s this latter that I don’t really understand in view of my FT level.
I’m not on an AI, but obviously will be in short order(anastrozole). Any way to reduce the SHBG, or will it go down once on the AI and my estradiol level is reduced?
BTW, these are LabCorp values, so, of course, the T ranges are considered high based on their ridiculously low “normal” values, i.e., TT = 290-800 and FT = 6.6-18. My PCP’s nurse told me I was way out of range on T and needed to do something about it. Well, yeah, I am–I’m going to increase it and try to get my FT up to around 25.
Many thanks for your kind help.
TT does not matter as most of that is SHBG bound T that is functionally inert. Some docs do not even test TT once on TRT. Yes, you could aim for higher FT. First get E2 down and see where FT goes from there. You will feel reborn.
You can increase T dose later if you still have symptoms. Save higher doses for later when you are symptomatically less responsive. Remember that a higher dose of T will require a proportionate increase in anastrozole, when you have that stabilized.
You cannot lower SHBG unless you lower E2 or develop diabetes.
The lesson that is “on topic” for this sticky is that the nurse is a slave to lab ranges and does not understand much else. You need to be prepared to simply state that her interpretation is wrong and explain why. If she has a problem with that, she would be better leaving her ego at the door.
Many thanks. Am looking forward to getting that E2 level down to around 23.
KSman:
Just a quick follow-up. How long might it typically take using anastrozole eod to drive the level down from 42.5 to the 22-23? Also, in your opinion, how long would it be before I subjectively “felt” the change in E2 level?
Thanks again for your assistance.
Feel good results in 10-14 days. Depending on how long one has had estrogen poisoning and how much E2, it may take two months to fully recover mood and personality. But most will be well in place by 1 month.
Anastrozole is a competitive drug. Its effects are immediate and it absorbs very well and fast. With its ~36 hour half life, EOD or ED doses will take 6-7 days to reach static serum levels. So fast response to any given serum level, but takes time to build serum level. The answer used to be to front load. But I cannot recommend that now as there are a lot more over-responders that were previously thought. Had one guy front load who became profoundly depressed, not willing to socialize at all. That was extreme. The effects of way too low E2 can be very unpleasant.
Lets assume that you could instantly go to a good serum level of anastrozole. E2 production rates would go to a new lower level within one hour, perhaps in minutes. Does that mean that your have the target level of E2? No. There is a production rate of E2, which you just lowered. And there is a removal rate controlled by the liver. The balance of this ‘source’ and ‘sink’ takes a few days to be reached.
So as you start anastrozole, it takes a while for the serum levels of anastrozole to build and it take time for the body to reach a balance of the reduced source production and liver elimination. So there are few processes that do seem to make sense in terms of a 7-10 day delay.
After you reach a final E2 end point, brain and other tissues need to respond physically to the change. Then patterns of thought need to change and your sexual pursuit areas of your brain can become more intent.
Starting from E2=42.5, you should feel profound changes and those around you may find you a better person too.
One should take 1mg/week per 100mg test ester per week. Just had one guy taking around 1mg/week with 160mg test cyp. He got to E2=30pg/ml. His new dose calculated to 1.5mg/week. Very close to the rule of thumb’s 1.6mg/week. But, always start with 1.0mg/week in divided doses and if your T dose is higher than 100mg/week, then you can increase as suggested AFTER you demonstrate that you are not an over-responder.
KSman,
Brilliant article - thanks.
Just a question, can Test E be substituted for Sustanon 250 or is there a greater benefit from using Test E or Test C?
I currentkly inject Sust 250 Sub Q every 7 days 125mg. Would I be better to switch to Test C or test E?
Thanks buddy,
If you want more T, you could simply inject more. So cost per mg comes up as an issue. Sustanon is an attempt to get a more even level of T over a week. Injecting twice a week, E3D or E2D/EOD is the obvious method to get steadier levels. Eth has more T than Cyp on a mg-T/mg-ester basis. I assume by your question that you are self medicating your TRT.
Many suffer with weekly injections and do better with EOD. That difference is greater
Steadier T levels leads to lower E2 and thus lower SHBG, allowing for better FT.
Overall, getting E2 controlled is often a greater success factor important than one level of T VS another.
If docs would adjust T doses to get to high normal or high youthful FT levels, then the doses would be changed to get there and then the end point would not be an issue of Cyp VS Eth. However, in doing that, Eth might be a more cost effective method. In the USA, T Cyp seems to be the mainstream drug and may be cheaper than Eth. If you get a Business Membership at Sam’s 10ml 200mg/ml T cyp costs $42. Similar prices perhaps at Costco [with a regular membership]. To get those prices, you pay out of pocked and do not attempt to use your med insurance, as that will be more costly.
Thanks KSman.
I understand what you are saying about Sust providing a even level of T over a period, would you suggest following the twice weekly injection protocol with Sust in the same fashion as Test E? Or do you believe that Sust is fine for weekly SQ injection?
Thanks.
Sust is attempting to do what it cannot do. If you feel fine with weekly sust SC injections, do that. SC also provide a more level response [VS IM].
If not sure, try more often and see what that does for you. You can always return to weekly injections later.
That is all that really matters - choice. We have a choice other than the once every week or every two weeks dogma and 1.5" needles in the arse.
Thanks KSman
I have been dosing 104mg of test a week for the past 8 weeks. Ive been using 205mg/ml test C, injections have been 3x wk at .17ml or 17IU each pin for a total of 51iu’s a week.
I also used 1mg adex a week with 250iu’s of HCG 3x week.
Quest labs came back with:
Total Test: 611
E2: 28
These labs were done through my doctor who thinks im only using Androgel. My dr. didnt get FT totals.
My question is how much should i increase my dosage to get to the 900 range fot TT. I realize that Free test should be my main concerne but unfortunately my Dr. didnt think it was too important. My next lab I will do on my own through labcor. I just figured since my TT was only 611 that my FT probably isnt in the upper range either.
This past week I upped my dosage to 60iu’s a week for a total of 123mg of test per week. Im looking to increase my TT from 611 to 900 which is a 32% increase. But I only increased my test dosage by 15%, 104 to 123mg’s. Do i need to go higher on my dosage or just maintain and retest in 6 wks.
Can you increase your dose and not run out?
Increase adex by a factor of 28/22.
When was the TT test done relative to prior injection?
You may need to increase T to 140mg. But maybe not all at once.
I have another vial on hand, so running out is not a problem.
Blood draw was done 24 hr after injection. I pin in the morning Mon, Wed, and Fri. My blood draw was done on Thursday morning.
I was originally taking 104mg wk. I’ve been taking 123mg for the last week. Im thinking about staying at 123mg for another week, then bumping up to 140mgs. How does that sound? or should I increase to 130mg this week then 140mgs the following week?
You need to keep seeking a higher adex dose to balance the T driven T–>E aromatization. So that is one negative to increasing multiple steps. But the 1mg/week anastrozole per 100mg T ester per week should work well.
There can be some benefit to feeling the effects of two increases of T instead of one. So you can work this anyway that you like.