TRT: Protocol for Injections

Pharma TRT
181

I have transplanted this from another forum, it belongs here too.

[quote]Blacksnake wrote:
(Meanwhile, in the UK’s credible scientific section)…
‘Fountain of youth’ steroids may protect against heart disease
Steroids sold as health supplements can switch on a natural defence mechanism against heart disease, according to University of Leeds researchers.
The University of Leeds biologists have identified a previously-unknown ion channel in human blood vessels that can limit the production of inflammatory cytokines; proteins that drive the early stages of heart disease.
After analyses, boffins found that this protective effect can be triggered by pregnenolone sulphate - a molecule that is part of a family of “fountain-of-youth” steroids. These steroids are so-called because of their apparent ability to improve energy, vision and memory
Collaborative studies with surgeons at Leeds General infirmary have shown that this defence mechanism can be switched on in diseased blood vessels as well as in healthy vessels.
So-called “fountain of youth” steroids are made naturally in the body, but levels decline rapidly with age.
This has led to a market in synthetically made steroids that are promoted for their health benefits, such as pregnenolone and DHEA. Pregnenolone sulphate is in the same family of steroids but it is not sold as a health supplement.
“The effect that we have seen is really quite exciting and also unexpected,” said Professor David Beech, who led the study. "However, we are absolutely not endorsing any claims made by manufacturers of any health supplements. Evidence from human trials is needed first."
A chemical profiling study indicated that the protective effect was not as strong when cholesterol was present too. This suggests that the expected benefits of “fountain of youth” steroids will be much greater if they are used in combination with cholesterol-lowering drugs and/or other healthy lifestyle strategies such as diet and exercise.
“These “fountain of youth” steroids are relatively cheap to make and some of them are already available as commercial products. So if we can show that this effect works in people as well as in lab-based studies, then it could be a cost-effective approach to addressing cardiovascular health problems that are becoming epidemic in our society and world-wide,” Professor Beech added.
[/quote]

That is a nice bit of fluff. Hard to see where the above text came from when reading:
http://circres.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/106/9/1507
That is about as obvious as a Dan Brown treasure map.

I often cite the need for hCG in TRT/HRT to maintain pregnenolone levels. TRT induced testicular shutdown takes the largest single source in males] of pregnenolone off-line. This can have direct consequences for the brain. Low pregnenolone levels also will drag down DHEA and the other adrenal steroids. For most TRT without hCG constitutes failure of the testes. This is therapy induced organ failure.

With the implications of the above research, the effects of testicular shutdown have much wider implications. Many HRT docs do check pregnenolone levels and seek to have levels restored to youthful levels. They have good reasons for doing this. The research explains the mechanics of one possible beneficial result of maintaining youthful hormone profiles.

It is well known from clinical studies that men with the lowest DHEA-S levels, who have heart attacks, have the lowest 1 year survivability rates. It seems obvious that men with the highest natural DHEA-S levels would also have the highest pregnenolone levels. So the drive to supplement with DHEA-S to place one self in the survivors group could be of limited effect, as higher natural DHEA-S levels may be the effect of higher pregnenolone and higher DHEA-S serum levels may not be the primary cause of increased survivability.

Also, men with the lowest natural pregnenolone and DHEA levels will as a group have the lowest testosterone levels. Low testosterone is known to have a wide spectrum of negative effects. Thus low pregnenolone can have other secondary effects in natural aging males.

The study explores the possible implications of increasing pregnenolone. But what are the implications and mechanics of very low pregnenolone levels? I do not know if the paper really presents any evidence in that direction.

I disagree with the suggestion that cholesterol lowering drugs would be of unqualified benefit, as statin drugs can easily reduce CoQ10 levels, lowering mitochondrial activity which can simply replace heart attack events with death by congestive heart failure. CoQ10 supplements are needed with statin drugs. I need to tell a story: An older friend had a ongoing nagging cough. I asked if he was taking Lipitor. He responded, surprised that I asked, that he was on 40mg, [a large dose]. I gave him a bottle of 100mg ubiquinol CoQ10. His cough is gone and he has lost 17 pounds, a long term sore elbow is also “healed”. As he burns off his own fat, he eats less. 17 pound of fat is a lot of calories. He continues to loose fat. I notice that his blue jeans all look new too. [Constant coughing is a major symptom of congestive heart failure. A weakness in the heart causes back pressure in the lungs forcing fluids to accumulate in the lungs.]

182

what do you think of buying powdered COQ10 ?
NO CAPSULES ,JUST THE POWDER

[quote]KSman wrote:
I have transplanted this from another forum, it belongs here too.

[quote]Blacksnake wrote:
(Meanwhile, in the UK’s credible scientific section)…
‘Fountain of youth’ steroids may protect against heart disease
Steroids sold as health supplements can switch on a natural defence mechanism against heart disease, according to University of Leeds researchers.
The University of Leeds biologists have identified a previously-unknown ion channel in human blood vessels that can limit the production of inflammatory cytokines; proteins that drive the early stages of heart disease.
After analyses, boffins found that this protective effect can be triggered by pregnenolone sulphate - a molecule that is part of a family of “fountain-of-youth” steroids. These steroids are so-called because of their apparent ability to improve energy, vision and memory
Collaborative studies with surgeons at Leeds General infirmary have shown that this defence mechanism can be switched on in diseased blood vessels as well as in healthy vessels.
So-called “fountain of youth” steroids are made naturally in the body, but levels decline rapidly with age.
This has led to a market in synthetically made steroids that are promoted for their health benefits, such as pregnenolone and DHEA. Pregnenolone sulphate is in the same family of steroids but it is not sold as a health supplement.
“The effect that we have seen is really quite exciting and also unexpected,” said Professor David Beech, who led the study. "However, we are absolutely not endorsing any claims made by manufacturers of any health supplements. Evidence from human trials is needed first."
A chemical profiling study indicated that the protective effect was not as strong when cholesterol was present too. This suggests that the expected benefits of “fountain of youth” steroids will be much greater if they are used in combination with cholesterol-lowering drugs and/or other healthy lifestyle strategies such as diet and exercise.
“These “fountain of youth” steroids are relatively cheap to make and some of them are already available as commercial products. So if we can show that this effect works in people as well as in lab-based studies, then it could be a cost-effective approach to addressing cardiovascular health problems that are becoming epidemic in our society and world-wide,” Professor Beech added.
[/quote]

That is a nice bit of fluff. Hard to see where the above text came from when reading:
http://circres.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/106/9/1507
That is about as obvious as a Dan Brown treasure map.

I often cite the need for hCG in TRT/HRT to maintain pregnenolone levels. TRT induced testicular shutdown takes the largest single source in males] of pregnenolone off-line. This can have direct consequences for the brain. Low pregnenolone levels also will drag down DHEA and the other adrenal steroids. For most TRT without hCG constitutes failure of the testes. This is therapy induced organ failure.

With the implications of the above research, the effects of testicular shutdown have much wider implications. Many HRT docs do check pregnenolone levels and seek to have levels restored to youthful levels. They have good reasons for doing this. The research explains the mechanics of one possible beneficial result of maintaining youthful hormone profiles.

It is well known from clinical studies that men with the lowest DHEA-S levels, who have heart attacks, have the lowest 1 year survivability rates. It seems obvious that men with the highest natural DHEA-S levels would also have the highest pregnenolone levels. So the drive to supplement with DHEA-S to place one self in the survivors group could be of limited effect, as higher natural DHEA-S levels may be the effect of higher pregnenolone and higher DHEA-S serum levels may not be the primary cause of increased survivability.

Also, men with the lowest natural pregnenolone and DHEA levels will as a group have the lowest testosterone levels. Low testosterone is known to have a wide spectrum of negative effects. Thus low pregnenolone can have other secondary effects in natural aging males.

The study explores the possible implications of increasing pregnenolone. But what are the implications and mechanics of very low pregnenolone levels? I do not know if the paper really presents any evidence in that direction.

I disagree with the suggestion that cholesterol lowering drugs would be of unqualified benefit, as statin drugs can easily reduce CoQ10 levels, lowering mitochondrial activity which can simply replace heart attack events with death by congestive heart failure. CoQ10 supplements are needed with statin drugs. I need to tell a story: An older friend had a ongoing nagging cough. I asked if he was taking Lipitor. He responded, surprised that I asked, that he was on 40mg, [a large dose]. I gave him a bottle of 100mg ubiquinol CoQ10. His cough is gone and he has lost 17 pounds, a long term sore elbow is also “healed”. As he burns off his own fat, he eats less. 17 pound of fat is a lot of calories. He continues to loose fat. I notice that his blue jeans all look new too. [Constant coughing is a major symptom of congestive heart failure. A weakness in the heart causes back pressure in the lungs forcing fluids to accumulate in the lungs.]
[/quote]

183

That would be a great cost savings. Don’t know if it tastes bad. Some products are oil based for better absorption. Ubiquinol absorbs better.

184

what about injection ? I know a place to get it…

[quote]KSman wrote:
That would be a great cost savings. Don’t know if it tastes bad. Some products are oil based for better absorption. Ubiquinol absorbs better.

185

It is nuts to inject anything that you can otherwise absorb as an oral. This is becoming a tangent to the mission of the sticky.

186

Hi Ksman
I read back on earlier pages about T injection with the same 1/2’’ needles used for hcg. I am concerned that the short length will not get the T cyp oil deep enough into the body. The quad muscle is a large target in square inches so thats a good thing.
It getting a bit tiresome to use the 1.5’’ needle in the glutes as I occasional hit something like a nerve that makes my teeth hurt.
Overall , have you had success with the insulin type syringes and needles into the quads?

matt

187

Hi Matt, long time no see

I used the 1/2" needles for years for IM into the vastus lateralis.

With EOD injections, the volumes are small and that is long enough for that unless one carries fat on there legs. If some leaks back out of the muscle, then that portion becomes an SC injection. The body absorbs it either way. Many are now injecting T SC and doing well. That follows a Canadian clinical study where they found that SC injections produced less T peaks and at the end of one week injection cycles the T levels were higher than with IM injections.

Note that T pellets are SC absorption, not IM.

So nothing can go wrong with the 1/2" needles. With EOD, your levels will be very steady. If you do SC injections you will not be creating any muscle damage. The only issue with SC is small bleeds that create bruises some times. You can prevent that from happening by pressing on the injection site with a finger for 15 seconds after you pull out the needle. IM can bruise as well, but not as often as SC and you can eliminate IM bleeds with compression as well.

I found that SC with T or hCG created lumps and could hurt when injecting into belly fat. Others report no such problems injecting there. When I inject SC onto the top of my legs, I don’t have any problems.

You really need to try this. Later on, if you want to go back to 1.5" needles, you can do that.

188

Been doing the HRT (T + AI + HCG) for about 2 years now with good results. I recently bumped my dose from 150 mg/wk of T to 200 mg/wk due to some of the lab values starting to drop off. Since then I have noticed a couple of things that may be related to the increased dose.

  1. Swelling and Tenderness at the injection site. I inject into the glutes and actually have to split the injection into 2 separate doses (left side and right side) to minimize the effects

  2. Pain and soreness in upper thighs and hip flexor area. This is really more annoying than painful but does not seem to go away

any thought about the higher doses causing any of the above 2 issues?

189

Inject smaller amounts more often -EOD or E3D. You can try SC injections too. Stop injecting in your glutes and inject into the vastus lateralis with small needles as described in this sticky. You need to use more anastrozole as you use more T. What are your current serum E2 levels.

The timing of labs after injections determines the results. Best to do labs 1/2 way between injections.

190

i tried this with insulin needles…took all day to load. I settled on using a 3 ml syringe, drawing it with an 18 gauge, switching needles to a 1.5 inch 25 gauge…slips into the vastus lateralis smooth as silk…best of both worlds. injections E3D .25 ml, 50 mg T Cyp.

191

[quote]KSman wrote:
Inject smaller amounts more often -EOD or E3D. You can try SC injections too. Stop injecting in your glutes and inject into the vastus lateralis with small needles as described in this sticky. You need to use more anastrozole as you use more T. What are your current serum E2 levels.

The timing of labs after injections determines the results. Best to do labs 1/2 way between injections.[/quote]

on Tuesday PM I Injected .25 ml (@ 200 mg/ml) of Test E into my right vastus lateralis and another .25 ml into my left delt. The VL injection was sore and tender (and is still slightly tender) in the morning while the delt injection felt fine. Both where subcutaneous using a 25Gx5/8 needle.

My last test showed my estradiol level dropped to 12. since then I have dropped my anastrazole from 1.5 mg/wk to 1 mg/wk, divided. I have had difficulty keeping my estradiol levels in the sweet spot.

Is the delt an acceptable location to inject? Any other recommended loacations for a SC injection

192

[quote]PDJD wrote:

i tried this with insulin needles…took all day to load. I settled on using a 3 ml syringe, drawing it with an 18 gauge, switching needles to a 1.5 inch 25 gauge…slips into the vastus lateralis smooth as silk…best of both worlds. injections E3D .25 ml, 50 mg T Cyp.[/quote]

I had the same problem. I started to heat up the Test by putting the vial in a plastic bag and then placing it in glass of hot water. This thinned out the oil and made loading much faster. I can pre load 10 29G syringes in about 10 mins. And make sure to use the 50iu pins becuase the injection time is much faster than the 100iu pins due to the increased barrel pressure.

193

[quote]KSman wrote:
Hi Matt, long time no see

I used the 1/2" needles for years for IM into the vastus lateralis.

With EOD injections, the volumes are small and that is long enough for that unless one carries fat on there legs. If some leaks back out of the muscle, then that portion becomes an SC injection. The body absorbs it either way. Many are now injecting T SC and doing well. That follows a Canadian clinical study where they found that SC injections produced less T peaks and at the end of one week injection cycles the T levels were higher than with IM injections.

Note that T pellets are SC absorption, not IM.

So nothing can go wrong with the 1/2" needles. With EOD, your levels will be very steady. If you do SC injections you will not be creating any muscle damage. The only issue with SC is small bleeds that create bruises some times. You can prevent that from happening by pressing on the injection site with a finger for 15 seconds after you pull out the needle. IM can bruise as well, but not as often as SC and you can eliminate IM bleeds with compression as well.

I found that SC with T or hCG created lumps and could hurt when injecting into belly fat. Others report no such problems injecting there. When I inject SC onto the top of my legs, I don’t have any problems.

You really need to try this. Later on, if you want to go back to 1.5" needles, you can do that.

[/quote]
Hi KSman.
I am liking the use of the 1/2 needles for injections. It very etious to draw the T oil into the syringe though , I may look intoa slightly larger diameter needle. I am not sure of diameter I have now [ its the one I use for HCG] , and commonly used for insulin.
Again, thank you for all your wealth of info your provide to everyone here, your a true asset to this forum.
I spend time at DR Crisler ‘‘all things male’’ forum, it equally good place, I think you said once you participated there but left that foru?

194

I have been on other forums. Guys who land here seem to better informed.

195

I’ve found the load time in the #29 insulin pins just fine…I will start the loading with one hand and then with the other I mark the injection site and then swab it…and by that time it’s loaded.

196

Well I am confused. I have done all sub-q for HCG,HGH into my belly fat. There is no fat at all on my VL. Are you guys this way as well and your pinching the skin to pull it up so you have a target ? I have very low body fat, when I started HGH for my neck problem the fat disappeared around the belly as well for a week and it was hard to find an injection site so I just bunched up the skin but on my VL its like the skin was just sprayed on. I am still doing IM but its getting kind of silly to do that for just 100mg.

197

A pinch is 1/8" there, but thicker elsewhere on my quads. Yes, inject into the length of the pinched up skin. Does not have to be over the vastus lateralis for SC injections. I assume that you co-inject hCG and hGH.

198

Does anyone know if subcutaneous injections cause a greater potential for E2 conversion than IM injections - hence a need for more Arimidex?

If this is the case then surely IM has to be a better option than SQ?

199

While the local T levels could be quite high and the aromatase local to that area will be converting T–>E, the conversion rate for the aromatase is finite and the amount of tissue involved is small. The effect is minor. When I switched from IM to SC my E2 levels did not jump. In any case, one is checking E2 with labs and making anastrozole dose refinements in any case.

We do not have guys reporting such issues. A few who are hyper metabolizers of T report that IM works better for them than SC, but that is completely different issue.

Note that as the body absorbs the oil and T ester, as T ester molecules become isolated and distributed in the blood stream, the ester groups get removed in tissues and the blood yielding testosterone. Testosterone ester cannot be processed by aromatase enzymes, thus much of the injected T ester bypass aromatase exposure at the SC injection site.

Similarity, high percent T creams lead to lower E2 levels than gels, because the volume of product applied is small and the area of skin affected is much less. This smaller area of T saturated skin produces less E2 than a larger area of T saturated skin.

At some point, further increasing T levels in the skin or SC tissues does not create more E2 as the capacity to aromatize is saturated.

200

[quote]KSman wrote:
While the local T levels could be quite high and the aromatase local to that area will be converting T–>E, the conversion rate for the aromatase is finite and the amount of tissue involved is small. The effect is minor. When I switched from IM to SC my E2 levels did not jump. In any case, one is checking E2 with labs and making anastrozole dose refinements in any case.

We do not have guys reporting such issues. A few who are hyper metabolizers of T report that IM works better for them than SC, but that is completely different issue.

Note that as the body absorbs the oil and T ester, as T ester molecules become isolated and distributed in the blood stream, the ester groups get removed in tissues and the blood yielding testosterone. Testosterone ester cannot be processed by aromatase enzymes, thus much of the injected T ester bypass aromatase exposure at the SC injection site.

Similarity, high percent T creams lead to lower E2 levels than gels, because the volume of product applied is small and the area of skin affected is much less. This smaller area of T saturated skin produces less E2 than a larger area of T saturated skin.

At some point, further increasing T levels in the skin or SC tissues does not create more E2 as the capacity to aromatize is saturated.[/quote]

For sure KSMan I get where your coming from, my initial thought was due to the increased aromatase with Gel (as you mention) compared to IM shots.

Increase in aromatase T to E is not something I want to control with an AI if there are other options available. E.G smaller EOD shots, Selinium & Zinc etc. Do you belive there is an ‘absolute’ requirement for an AI in Test only TRT?