TRT: Protocol for Injections

Pharma TRT
81

Thatâ??s a good question regarding un-refrigerated hcg shelf life. I’m still trying to figure out the refrigerated life. I suspect you would not notice any difference even if you missed the shot. You did not loose your nuts over night once you started TRT. I’m up to about 50 days on my fist batch and waiting to see any changes.

I am a little concerned since Iâ??m planning to get a blood test next week. I wanted to get a picture of what my Free T, Total T and E2 is now that Iâ??m on all three compounds.

I still have not gotten my insurance company to pay for the HCG and suspect the Arimidex will be the same issue. I have found both on line at low enough prices but for what Iâ??m paying for my insurance, Iâ??d like to be able to use it.

Has anyone found a product or manufacture that produces HCG in 5000 iu doses. Novarel produces a 10000iu and thatâ??s an 80 day supply at 250 EOD. I did purchase a 10000 iu supply on line from Alldaychemist and they provide 5000 iu doses but Iâ??d like to find a product that I can have my doctor write a prescription for.

Also would be nice to find a liquid form of anastrozole that is supplied with a dropper and a thin enough mix to make dosing less guess work. The product I purchased from Iron Dragon is not that easy to dose. That is why I asked my doctor for the Arimidex. Iâ??m up to .375mg EOD and Iâ??m not sure if that is high enough based on some of my symptoms. If .5mg EOD works out to be the magic number then the 1mg tablets split in half would work be a sure thing.

So I got my doctor on board with all of this and have an appointment in late December with an endocrinologist. Iâ??m going to have my latest lab results by then. Iâ??ve seen a very comprehensive list of tests to have run but my doctor was reluctant to prescribe it. I suspect it was because she did not know how to interpret all of the values. So any recommendations on how to handle my endo to get what Iâ??m looking for. Iâ??ll provide her with the long list.

Last question is regarding free testosterone levels. My last result was 334. If I get this number up even higher, at what point do you start to experience the problems associated steroid use like loosing hair ect. What kind of free test numbers to guys get out of AAS stacking. One of my concerns is based on the fact that I have managed to put on 20 pounds in the last two months and about 20 % strength increase.

I was not in bad shape previously. I did start a bodybuilding diet but that has never done much for me in the past. My doctor mentioned that my free t was a little high but that was only because the lab test has something like 300 as the upper limit.

Well enough rambling

The more I read the more I learn, read on.

82

I am dumping this from something I put in another post:

TRT:
Lowers LDL cholesterol
Improves endothelial function
Improves elasticity of the blood vessels which:
Lowers blood pressure which reduces congestive heart failure
Resolves mood problems that otherwise have SSRIs thrown at them
Fixed many cases of low libido and ED
Resolves social withdrawal and apathy
Improves energy, alertness and activity
Increases muscle
Reduces fat
Lower weight reduces loads on aging joints
Improves thyroid levels in some cases
Restores skin tone where skin has become thin and inelastic
Finger nails grow faster, thicker and stronger
Improves prostate condition when E2 is managed
Increases morning and nocturnal erections improving health of the penis
Resolves some anemia cases
When the testes are kept functional with hCG, pregnenolone production is supported which:
Resolves brain fog and improved memory [pregnenolone]
Improved pregnenolone levels support DHEA levels and adrenal function
Strengthens the heart muscles which opposes congestive heart failure
Improves strength and connective tissue thus:
Improving balance and reducing falls and fractures.
Extends ability for independent living and self sufficiency
-The one year life expectancy for males who fall and fracture hip bones at the hip is very poor. Almost 30% will die in the first year. While males have a lower level of hip fractures than women, one year mortality for males is much higher than for females. The death rates are also 2.5 times higher than control groups of males who do not suffer hop fractures. Low testosterone weakens muscles and bone and probably is the major factor in fractures. Low T also interferes with post-op healing and recovery of activity.

Untreated low testosterone levels are associated
With issues listed above
Shorter life span and poor QOL

Doctors see this all of the time.

Unwanted TRT side effects:
Elevated E → ED, libido, mood, energy problems, reduced fat losses, increased prostate problems etc [this is easily managed with anastrozole]
Small testes or testicular organ failure if hCG is not used; tight scrotum
RBC [red blood cell count] and hematocrit get too high for some
Increased male pattern baldness losses for those genetically predisposed

1 Like
83

KSman: Thanks for all of the good info. This question goes back to your initial posting. You talk about the peaks and valleys, re. injections, and recommend multiple weekly injections. My questions is why, given that with test. cyp. the half-life is 7-8 days. You should be able to do a once a week injection and reach steady state in five weeks, i.e., five half lives. Why would one need to inject more often to reach and maintain steady state?

Thanks + kindest regards.

84

with regard to hch being unrefrigerated, i accidently left mine out over a weekend (it was out for about 48 hours) so i called my dr and asked. They in turn had to call the pharmacy and they said it would not effect. I must say im still a little leary of it being out that long as on the bottle as it also says “use with 30 days”…another thing i talked to my dr about and he assured me it would be good for 90 days. I hope the stuff is still working…guess my labs will confirm.

geobob, I have a prescription for ameridex; the pills are fairly easy to cut in half though i have not tried cutting it in smaller; but trying to cut an ameridex pill in 1/3 or .375 mg might be dfficult…maybe one could do it in 1/4 as then your at least cutting the pill in half again after you cut in half.

85

If you inject one a week for five weeks you will reach some kind of steady state. After a while that steady state feels like hell for some. That steady state involves E levels that are too high and peaking and crashing T levels. It is all wrong whatever some stays about steady state.

The hCG keeps the testes functioning. When on TRT, we are not concerned much about degree as the testes are not the main support for T. If the hCG is less potent… do not worry about it.

86

Any advice on this is welcome.

I came to the conclussion after reading some threads on the Allthings Male forum (another good source) that my E2 levels had really dropped over the last 8 weeks of .375 mg of anastrozal EOD.

I gave a blood sample last week and after that I decided to stop the anastrozal until I could see some noticable change to three factors: my energy levels were down, I was getting really sleepy during the day, my mood did not feel right, and I was no longer getting nocternal erections or morning wood like I had in the past. The real indicator was that cialis really was not doing what it typically does for me either.

So it has been a week now and I’m monitoring the three factors and I think we getting back closer to the (sweet spot) for my E2 levels. When I get back there or where I think is there, I will stay off the anastrozal until my E2 levels climb past the sweet spot and then go back on the anastrozal at .25 mg EOD. I hope this will give me a good idea of just what I should be experiencing when I have it right.

This method was recommended by someone on the other forum and it sounds like a good idea.

Has anyone else tried this method.

87

GeoBob: Are you waiting on E2 results from the blood work? If so, you can calculate the dose change.

88

Well I am just dumb founded, I got my lab results back today (my doctor is so great. She called me tonight with the results).

E2 was 24, down from 26.9.

Makes no sense to me from the way I was feeling. Maybe I was imagining the symptoms from what I read. Maybe everybody has a different â??sweet spotâ?? and mine is not what one would expect

The total testosterone was 809 down from 994

Free testosterone was 273 down from 334.2

Just to summarize about what Iâ??ve been taking

Before my previous lab work
50 mg of testosterone cypinate injected twice a week
.25mg Anastrozole EOD

I got on the HCG (250iu injected EOD) after the last tests
I thought that might increase the total test number and considering the E2 level at 26.9, I increased the anastrozole to .375mg EOD

After 8 weeks of this I had blood drawn for a test the morning before one of test shots. This was the same time as the last blood draw. I wanted to see just how low my level was going before my bi-weekly injection.

I took the anastrozole the day before my first blood test and two days before my most recent blood test.

I realize the tests are not perfect but I am really surprised by the results.

As far as looking for the sweet spot Iâ??m still recording my daily feelings (energy levels, metal or emotional attitude and morning and night time erections.).

I doubt my E2 levels have ever been lower than this most recent test since they were high after my androgel and before the cypinate. I think the very first levels were 30 or 40. At that time I was getting cramps and really had low energy levels so I think I know what high levels feel like. What I obviously do not know is what love levels feel like. I do believe I have experience the sweet spot so maybe mine is somewhere above 26.9.

I guess Iâ??ll find out soon enough since Iâ??ve now been off the anastrozole for a week.

If it is not above 24 I guess Iâ??ll try .5mg EOD but I am definitely a little worried about that.

Well once again, enough rambling, any advice welcome
Bob

89

Bob, great context to your post. I assume that the same lab was used for both tests. I have had the same drops in TT and FT on fixed doses of T to some degree… more so FT. There can be some metabolic changes that clear T from the body. Most would suspect that this involves the liver. I would not assume that there is anything wrong with the liver. It might be that it is doing some of what it does better; which might be some kind of adaption. This took a couple of years to show up for me.

If you did blood work every week there would be some variability in your labs and the lab results can be variable as well. If multiple samples were taken and frozen and the blood from the single sampling was sent to the same lab at different dates the results would not be the same.

In my case, my first follow up lab was 887 with weekly injections, sampled at day 3.5. Added hCG and with the insulin needles at hand I discovered that I could use those to inject T EOD. Next lab work produced TT=1000. So in my case, the hCG did create a nice boost in T levels. Anastrozole was added after the second lab work to deal with E2=37. I would have expected your T levels to increase.

I find your T results suspect as well, both down ~20%. There is no doubt about how much T you are getting into your system by injecting. I take that as a solid fact and find the labs suspicious. The first lab can be as suspect as the second.

PM me and we can talk about your energy levels etc.

90

Hola,

I just recently received my labs (0.66 FT, with a “normal” low range of 0.62, if anyone can give those numbers some meaning that would be awesome, since the nurse I spoke to apparently didn’t have the units) after speaking with my doctor about erectile problems and lowered energy, and I am reasonably sure he is going to put me on TRT. I’m only 20 years old, and I have a few questions. It would be great if someone knowledgeable could shed some light on this for me.

  1. I’m reasonably sure that I caused this problem myself through literally years of periodic overtraining, or rather under-resting. If I get my shit straight and tone it down on myself, allow myself to recover, get supplementation in order (Multi, ZMA, herbal test-booster) could I expect my levels to recover? Or does the physiology just not work that way?
  2. Should I go on TRT, how sure is it that hCG would eliminate the possibility of infertility? Losing my ability to have children worries me immensely.
  3. Once on TRT, how soon can I expect my low test symptoms to improve? Ie, how long will it take for my erectile problems to cease and my energy levels to be higher?

Thanks a ton.

91

Zach- TRT can have profound effects on libido and erections. hCG will keep your testes functional, but sperm counts could be lower. If that is a problem, you can inject other peptides to compensate for the low FSH levels. hCG does have some ability to activate FSH receptors.

Age=20
Height and how tall are brothers and father
Weight
Waist size
how much facial and body hair
describe facial bone structure
any loss of peripheral vision
feeling cold often [thyroid]
gaining fat
where are you gaining fat
gyno
how long ago did these changes start
changes in how you react to stress [adrenals]
any history of stimulant use [adrenals]
any history of steroid use
deca?
where are you located
male pattern hair loss
drugs to combat male pattern hair loss

If the pituitary gland is not producing enough LH/FSH, then you need to find out why. There could be a strong repression from prolactin or reduced ability to release LH/FSH. Both can be caused by a pituitary adinoma [tumor]. When LH/FSH are low, one can inject hCG to increase hormone levels if the testes are functional. If 250-500iu EOD does not do the job, higher doses may not achieve a decent end point. High hCG doses can create E2 [estradiol] levels that cannot be effectively managed with AI [aromatase inhibitor] drugs such as Arimidex/anastrozole.

If the testes are not LH responsive, TRT is the only option. Note that there can be problems with the veins around the testes can lower T levels… often with pain. This often can be surgically corrected.

You need to do lab work for LH/FSH to determine if the testes are not LH responsive or they are not getting any LH. Low LH can be a symptom of a pituitary adinoma in younger men. A pituitary adinoma can press on optic nerves, creating visual field disturbances such as reduced peripheral vision. Young men need to know why T is low, not simply start TRT. You cannot do LH/FSH abs when on TRT. These labs must be done now. If your doc does not do this and you switch docs later on, the next doc may force you off TRT to check LH/FSH levels. If a pituitary problems is suspected, a MRI brain scan can visualize pituitary abnormalities.

Also test fasting cholesterol and DHEA-S. Low cholesterol can mess up the steroid hormones. Low DHEA-S can indicate adrenal problems and low DHEA can affect hormone production. Are fasting serum glucose levels normal?

A car accident or other blows to the head can damage the pituitary and lower LH/FSH. A MRI can detect that. Did you have a blow to the head prior to your changes?

Some young, tall, guys with low body hair have hormone collapses in their early twenties, caused by genetic problems.

92

Zach- TRT can have profound effects on libido and erections. hCG will keep your testes functional, but sperm counts could be lower. If that is a problem, you can inject other peptides to compensate for the low FSH levels. hCG does have some ability to activate FSH receptors.

Age=20
Height and how tall are brothers and father
Weight
Waist size
how much facial and body hair
describe facial bone structure
any loss of peripheral vision
feeling cold often [thyroid]
gaining fat
where are you gaining fat
gyno
how long ago did these changes start
changes in how you react to stress [adrenals]
any history of stimulant use [adrenals]
any history of steroid use
deca?
where are you located
male pattern hair loss
drugs to combat male pattern hair loss

If the pituitary gland is not producing enough LH/FSH, then you need to find out why. There could be a strong repression from prolactin or reduced ability to release LH/FSH. Both can be caused by a pituitary adinoma [tumor]. When LH/FSH are low, one can inject hCG to increase hormone levels if the testes are functional. If 250-500iu EOD does not do the job, higher doses may not achieve a decent end point. High hCG doses can create E2 [estradiol] levels that cannot be effectively managed with AI [aromatase inhibitor] drugs such as Arimidex/anastrozole.

If the testes are not LH responsive, TRT is the only option. Note that there can be problems with the veins around the testes can lower T levels… often with pain. This often can be surgically corrected.

You need to do lab work for LH/FSH to determine if the testes are not LH responsive or they are not getting any LH. Low LH can be a symptom of a pituitary adinoma in younger men. A pituitary adinoma can press on optic nerves, creating visual field disturbances such as reduced peripheral vision. Young men need to know why T is low, not simply start TRT. You cannot do LH/FSH abs when on TRT. These labs must be done now. If your doc does not do this and you switch docs later on, the next doc may force you off TRT to check LH/FSH levels. If a pituitary problems is suspected, a MRI brain scan can visualize pituitary abnormalities.

Also test fasting cholesterol and DHEA-S. Low cholesterol can mess up the steroid hormones. Low DHEA-S can indicate adrenal problems and low DHEA can affect hormone production. Are fasting serum glucose levels normal?

A car accident or other blows to the head can damage the pituitary and lower LH/FSH. A MRI can detect that. Did you have a blow to the head prior to your changes?

Some young, tall, guys with low body hair have hormone collapses in their early twenties, caused by genetic problems.

93

[quote]KSman wrote:
Zach- TRT can have profound effects on libido and erections. hCG will keep your testes functional, but sperm counts could be lower. If that is a problem, you can inject other peptides to compensate for the low FSH levels. hCG does have some ability to activate FSH receptors.

Age=20
Height and how tall are brothers and father
Weight
Waist size
how much facial and body hair
describe facial bone structure
any loss of peripheral vision
feeling cold often [thyroid]
gaining fat
where are you gaining fat
gyno
how long ago did these changes start
changes in how you react to stress [adrenals]
any history of stimulant use [adrenals]
any history of steroid use
deca?
where are you located
male pattern hair loss
drugs to combat male pattern hair loss

If the pituitary gland is not producing enough LH/FSH, then you need to find out why. There could be a strong repression from prolactin or reduced ability to release LH/FSH. Both can be caused by a pituitary adinoma [tumor]. When LH/FSH are low, one can inject hCG to increase hormone levels if the testes are functional. If 250-500iu EOD does not do the job, higher doses may not achieve a decent end point. High hCG doses can create E2 [estradiol] levels that cannot be effectively managed with AI [aromatase inhibitor] drugs such as Arimidex/anastrozole.

If the testes are not LH responsive, TRT is the only option. Note that there can be problems with the veins around the testes can lower T levels… often with pain. This often can be surgically corrected.

You need to do lab work for LH/FSH to determine if the testes are not LH responsive or they are not getting any LH. Low LH can be a symptom of a pituitary adinoma in younger men. A pituitary adinoma can press on optic nerves, creating visual field disturbances such as reduced peripheral vision. Young men need to know why T is low, not simply start TRT. You cannot do LH/FSH abs when on TRT. These labs must be done now. If your doc does not do this and you switch docs later on, the next doc may force you off TRT to check LH/FSH levels. If a pituitary problems is suspected, a MRI brain scan can visualize pituitary abnormalities.

Also test fasting cholesterol and DHEA-S. Low cholesterol can mess up the steroid hormones. Low DHEA-S can indicate adrenal problems and low DHEA can affect hormone production. Are fasting serum glucose levels normal?

A car accident or other blows to the head can damage the pituitary and lower LH/FSH. A MRI can detect that. Did you have a blow to the head prior to your changes?

Some young, tall, guys with low body hair have hormone collapses in their early twenties, caused by genetic problems.

[/quote]

Thanks for the detailed response, I’ll try to give you what you need. Shot you a PM so I don’t parade too much info in front of an unwilling audience, but should the problem be resolved I’ll definitely post here with what happened to contribute to the thread.

94

Zach, open your own thread on that, not in this sticky.

95

Dear KSman: I recently got a rude awakening re. the TRT pellets. I knew that my insurance wouldn’t pay for the pellets, but I got a real surprise when I got a bill from my doc for $400 for the two implantations. At $200 a pop for the implantation + the cost of the pellets which are only lasting me three months, that comes out to around $140 a month. Needless to say, I told my PCP that this wasn’t go to fly and I needed to go with injections. He didn’t seem to care much, wrote me a script for Test. Cyp. 200 mg/ml, 10 ml vials, with five refills. So, following your suggested protocol, I’m now doing three injections per week. My last bloodwork indicated a TT level of 1000, E2 of 27. Next time I’ll add FT, DHEA/DHEAS, pregnenolone + E2.

Thanks for your advice.

N

96

Do not test DHEA, only DHEA-S
First thing that you would do to improve pregnenolone status would be maintenance of the testes with hCG.

You are now injecting with the pellets in place?

97

I am curious to see if anyone has had any success ordering HCG from any of the online pharmacies…I believe someone had mentioned alldaychemist out of India in a previous post. First off, can you trust the efficacy of the product as I believe it is requisite to maintain refrigeration? Lastly, what are the legal ramifications if living in the US?

I am new to posting, but have been lurking for some time now. Thanks for the vast amounts of information and research - I have learned more here than from my doctor.

As a side note, my dr. has prescribed androgel, but is loath to augment with HCC and an anti-estrogen.

98

Kevinw: That is outside the scope of this sticky.

99

KSMan: Based upon previous declining levels and attendant time frames, pellets should be fini as of 01.10, at which time I will start injections. Admittedly, my previous post wasn’t clear + was misleading. Prior experience indicated that my metabolism of the pellets was three months.

N

100

I haven’t seen this question asked. With the more frequently injections (e2d), why not switch to a shorter ester like propionate? This would lower any side effects caused by longer estered testosterone (water retention, any worries of liver problems). Additionally, the shorter esters would require less space within the syringe than longer esters (enanthate or cypionate) while still providing the same amount of testosterone.

A person injecting 50mg (100mg/ml) of testosterone enanthate is actually receiving about 36mg of actual testosterone. If one were to inject 50mg of testosterone propionate they would be receiving 41.5mgs of actual test.

To receive the same 36mg of actual test, a person would only need to inject .43ml (100mg/ml) of test prop instead of .50ml of the test enanthate. While this doesnâ??t seem like much of a difference, in terms of percentages it is 14% less fluid that must be pushed through the syringe and sit under the skin.

This reduced amount of total substance would lower loading and injecting time and maybe injection site soreness or lumps experienced with subcutaneous injections.

To go further, maybe one could use an even smaller amount of testosterone suspension and inject everyday. In this case only .36ml would need to be used to receive the 36mg of test from the enanthate ester. This is a 28% decrease in total fluid and without any of the side effects of esters. I am very prone to water retention.

KS, I know there is a reason why this is not optimal. I would just like to have it explained when you get the time.