DHEA: depends on DHEA-S lab results
This is a sticky, not a place for personal issues, only the subject at hand. Please create your own post for your “case” [see you there]. See the advice for new guys sticky as well. Yes, this sticky is a mess already.
I see , my apologies…I’ll start my own thread.
Great thread here. I read everything I could for the last few weeks, printed out some notes and went to my Dr. Being informed ensures your Dr will listen and discuss options rather than dismissing you with little regard. I requested blood work a few weeks ago (after reviewing the lab work forum) and received the following -
Test: 281 ng/dl (ref: 350-890)
FT: 6.65 ng/dl (ref: 4.7-24.4)
%Free Test: 2.4 (ref: 1.6-2.9)
SHGB: 22.6 mol/l (ref: 13-71)
TSH: 1.05 uIU/ml (ref: 0.3-5.0)
E2: 30.5 pg/ml (ref: 0-56)
DHEA-Sulfate: 227 ug/dL (ref: 95-530)
40 years old, long time lifter. No experience with AAS, 2 months of pro hormones.
He gave me a scrip for a test gel and arimedex. I discussed the HCG but he wasn’t too aware of it’s usage in TRT. I asked for IM/SC test which he was open to but suggested we start out low on the list and evaluate as we go. Anyway, thanks for the info KSman, VTBalla34 and others who contributed.
[quote]colby80210 wrote:
Great thread here. I read everything I could for the last few weeks, printed out some notes and went to my Dr. Being informed ensures your Dr will listen and discuss options rather than dismissing you with little regard. I requested blood work a few weeks ago (after reviewing the lab work forum) and received the following -
Test: 281 ng/dl (ref: 350-890)
FT: 6.65 ng/dl (ref: 4.7-24.4)
%Free Test: 2.4 (ref: 1.6-2.9)
SHGB: 22.6 mol/l (ref: 13-71)
TSH: 1.05 uIU/ml (ref: 0.3-5.0)
E2: 30.5 pg/ml (ref: 0-56)
DHEA-Sulfate: 227 ug/dL (ref: 95-530)
40 years old, long time lifter. No experience with AAS, 2 months of pro hormones.
He gave me a scrip for a test gel and arimedex. I discussed the HCG but he wasn’t too aware of it’s usage in TRT. I asked for IM/SC test which he was open to but suggested we start out low on the list and evaluate as we go. Anyway, thanks for the info KSman, VTBalla34 and others who contributed.
[/quote]
This thread is for general information only. If you want to start your own case thread with your own bloodwork and treatment, please do so, but keep it out of this one.
Have a problem with my protocol.
The only way i get syringes officialy from the doctor are:
Test E in 250mg/1ml
hCG in 5000ui
How should i treat my self? with Test E im doing E9D.
Also taking 0.5mg AI E7D by cutting pill into the half.
But there is no way I can split my Test and hCg… Any suggestions?
[quote]artyi wrote:
Have a problem with my protocol.
The only way i get syringes officialy from the doctor are:
Test E in 250mg/1ml
hCG in 5000ui
How should i treat my self? with Test E im doing E9D.
Also taking 0.5mg AI E7D by cutting pill into the half.
But there is no way I can split my Test and hCg… Any suggestions?[/quote]
Please, help! Very concerned with AI…
[quote]killergoalie wrote:
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I’d be curious to see how the injection time is for you. Stop by and give us an update after a few pins.[/quote]
Just finished my first Sub-Q self injection. (Actually it was my first self injection ever of any type.)
Used a #29 Gauge, 1.0 C.C. 0.5" (1/2") Needle, Insulin Syringe.
Took about 2.5 - 3 minutes to load the syringe with 50mg of 100MG/ML strength Testosterone-Cypionate, and about 1 minute to inject.
Needed a fair amount of pressure on the plunger to inject, but slow, and steady pressure got the job done.
I injected it into my belly fat about 4 inches to the right of my navel. I also injected at 90�° since I still have quite a bit of fat around my stomach.
Felt absolutely no pain whatsoever.
There was only a very small drop of blood at the spot after I removed the needle, which I wiped away with a cotton ball, after I applied gentle pressure to it for a
minute or so.
So far, no pain, bruising, swelling at the injection site, but I’ll give it a while.
For my next injection, which will be around 8:00 P.M. on Wednesday, I might try using a #29 Gauge, 0.5 C.C. 0.5" (1/2") Needle, Insulin syringe to see if it produces a bit more pressure while injecting.
Anyway sorry for the lengthy post, I just wanted to be as thorough as possible in case others were considering doing Sub-Q injections, and wanted a bit of information concerning timing issues. Esp using a 1.0 C.C. 0.5" (1/2") Needle, Insulin Syringe.[/quote]
killergoalie, how are the injections going?
THIS IS NOT A CHAT ROOM! HIS POST WAS OUT OF PLACE AND SO IS YOURS.
I’m a bit confused from a few things I’ve read in this thread about this:
If one were supplementing with a small amount of gh (2iu ED) and also taking the HCG as recommended here, can they be combined and taken in one injection since they are both water based?
Of course, this also begs the question of whether taking 1/2 the recommended amount of HCG ED is okay to do instead of taking the full amount EOD.
If I’m sticking myself ED for the equivalent of 2IU of gh, I’d prefer to mix it so that one injection gets the required ratio of gh/hcg rather than pin-cushioning myself more than necessary.
Thanks,
TM
You can mix peptides, do not know if the hCG would impede or limit $GH absorption. Do not mix with a peptide that has more than BA water or sterile water.
Take other questions to your own thread.
[quote]KSman wrote:
You can mix peptides, do not know if the hCG would impede or limit $GH absorption. Do not mix with a peptide that has more than BA water or sterile water.
Take other questions to your own thread.[/quote]
KSman- This thread is a wonderful resource, however, it’s gotten off track a couple times and I’m curious to see if you still a supporter of the protocol that you first put up on 7-19-2009. I’d like to pm you personally, but don’t have that option yet. Do you have any experience with what’s called the Testosterone Trifecta (50mg Test every 3rd day, .25mg Arimidex every 3rd day and 500IU HCG every 3rd day.) It seems pretty close to your original protocol. My Dr. mentioned this to me today and wanted to get your opinion.
That will work for T+AI, however, for most, that is not enough AI. With a liquid product, you are not a slave to how an anastrozole tablet can be split.
hCG half life makes EOD dosing better, and your hCG dose is a bit excessive. Too much hCG can create E2 problems that AI cannot fix. For those who want to inject hCG EOD, injecting taking T+AI at the same time is an easier procedure to follow.
Yes, this thread has been abused.
Im just shaking my head reading this thread…
I went to the doc and said I was feeling like crap and had been for years.
He put me on testosterone and voila, done deal…
Been on for 13 months of 7 X 40mg caps of testosterone per day and I feel great…
Best I have felt in years… Nuts aint shrunk…
Now Im reading I should be on hCG and or arimidex and I need to have blood tests?
Eh? You guys sure about all this stuff. Seems all very complicated! 
[quote]KSman wrote:
Many guys ask for these details. Here is enough info to get started. You probably will not get your doctor aligned with this without a struggle [or a new doctor]. This is really a small part of what most guys need to know.
TRT: Protocol for Injections
Injecting testosterone once a week induces spikes in testosterone levels followed by lows. This can make many feel bad or worse at the end of the week than their pre-TRT state. As time goes on the dead zone gets wider and they feel no relief with injections. These feel much better injecting twice a week or even EOD [every other day].
Injecting every 2, 3 or 4 weeks is horrible. You need to self inject and inject frequently. With frequent injections the volumes are very small and one can inject in the quads [vastus lateralis] with #29 0.5ml 0.5" [50iu] insulin syringes.
These are slow to load but injection times are reasonable as the small plunger diameters create very high pressures. Do not use 1.0ml syringes. This same size syringe can be used for hCG injections, which are also SC.
EDIT: Injecting EOD [sometimes written as E2D] or E3D [every third day] can be a difficult schedule. You can set up reminders or appointments in calendar software, such as MS Outlook, for E2D or E3D etc.
Small needles will reduce muscle damage. Some use #25 1" needles, but this may not be any “faster” than the above 50iu insulin needles.
You do not need to inject into your gluts with 1.5" needles!
Canadian clinical research has demonstrated that TRT by SC [under the skin injections into body fat] produce steadier testosterone levels and improves sense of well-being. Feel free to find out what is more comfortable for you.
For those who train and sweat/shower a lot, transdermal T creams and gels are not appropriate.
Transdermal T creams [and patches] are expensive. At best, only about 10% of applied testosterone is absorbed. Transdermal delivered dose is a crap shoot. Guys who have low thyroid levels are typically non-absorbers. Some absorb transdermals at the start, but skin changes can shut off absorption after a while. With injections, there are no unknowns about drug delivery.
hCG is a water based peptide hormone can be injected to replace the lost LH hormone that TRT shuts down. Without hCG, the LH receptors in the testes are no longer getting activated. The results are:
The testes shrink. Over time for some the testes can eventually become small undifferentiated lumps of collagen. This is drug induced organ failure. The degree of shrinking varies from guy to guy and may be more of a problem for the older guys.
Fertility can be greatly reduced or eliminated. If making babies is important, you need to inject hCG. If hCG is not used, its use after a long time may or may not recover fertility.
When the testes get smaller, some feel an ache in their testes 24x7. hCG injections can eliminate that pain or avoid the whole episode.
When there is no LH or hCG, the scrotum pulls up tight to the body. This has the appearance of a pre-pubescent boy. This is not good for ones sexual self image and this also affects how women perceive you sexually. Some women get very upset when they see this maleness disappear, thus affecting their sexuality and interest in you.
The testes are the single largest producer of the hormone pregnenolone. Pregnenolone is important for proper mental functioning, and is the precursor to all of the steroid hormones such as DHEA, testosterone, DHT, estrogen, cortisol… Injecting hCG prevents a drug induced pregnenolone deficiency and helps support the other hormones. When guys are on T without hCG and then start hCG, they report a significant improvement in mood that many attribute to restored pregnenolone levels. [If that is not the case, hCG must have some direct effects in the brain.]
When injecting hCG, you inject into the fat under the skin just the same as diabetics inject insulin. The product literature is all about use a fertility drug for women with large IM [injected into muscle] doses. There is no need for men to inject hCG IM.
Research using SC injections in men has demonstrated the effectiveness of the 250iu EOD dosing. You can seek diabetic patient educational material for insulin injection techniques to use for hCG and/or testosterone injections.
Elevated normal [30pg/ml and up] serum E2/estradiol can block many of the benefits of testosterone replacement. Serum E2=22pg/ml is near optimal and one should dose anastrozole to get close to this level. Many who start TRT have some good results that soon vanish as E2 levels increase. My recommendation is to start anastrozole at 1.0mg per week [in divided doses] starting the day of the first injection. The let the first follow up E2 lab drive any needed anastrozole dose adjustments. It is not a good idea to wait and see how high E2 levels go before taking action. Dose anastrozole EOD if possible.
A few guys are anastrozole over responders. This is not known in the drug literature. These guys will get E2 in the single digits and will feel like crap physically and mentally. They may feel a spike of short lived libido as they fall through the E2 levels sweet spot. These guys need to take 1/4th or 1/8th of the expected anastrozole dose -something to watch for. If this is suspected, stop anastrozole for 6-7 days then resume at 1/4th the dose.
The 100mg dose of injected T should get guys into the 800-900 total testosterone [TT] range. That is nice to see, but one should be looking at free testosterone [FT] or bio-available testosterone [bio-T]. Some docs, who know what they are doing, will not bother checking TT numbers at all. SHBG levels increase with age and FT ratios drop.
A TT=1000 in a young man is not the same as TT=1000 in an older man with higher SHBG levels as the FT numbers will be well below that of the young man with the same TT. This may very well create TT levels that are above the youthful lab ranges and should not be a concern. Lab ranges shown on lab reports will be age adjusted. You need to be using the ranges for youthful men.
You need to know about PSA, prostate issues and DREs [digital rectal exam]. E2 is a large cause or aggravator of BPH [enlarged prostate]. Many find that lowering E2 to near E2=22pg/ml improves their BPH and urine flow is improved.
You need to monitor hematocrit levels as part of your routine lab work.
[/quote]
dang, just posted and its disappeared…
lets try this again.
I have been on testosterone caps for aprox 13 months now…
Gee after reading the first post in this thread Im wondering if I should try to come off.
I went to a doc who put me on test caps 7 x 40 mg’s per day and I feel great!
Now Im reading this thread and apparently need to be taking other meds as well???
hCG? arimidex?
And I need to be getting bloods done too? Gee its all starting to sound mighty complicated…
don’t suppose there is a quide to all this stuff in a very abbreviated form…
Something that shows what needs doing with out all the reasons and the unknown to me abbreviations???
ok, just figured it out… message needs to be approved first!
Do not post personal details here, this is a sticky, read on…
Keep reading the stickies, nothing to add that is not there now.
Balancing your hormones is more than just adding T. Start your own thread and keep everything about you there. Read the advice for new guys sticky, provide info about you, post your labs with ranges, post body temps and iodine intake [see thyroid basics for more info].
You should not be starting TRT without knowing what went wrong, you need LH and FSH for that. If you started TRT without labs, then one has to wonder about safety issues such as PSA, DRE and HTC that your doc may not be doing. You do not even know if your are absorbing T well.
Oral T can be expensive because so much is not absorbed or metabolized by first pass thru the liver. You are taking 280mg/week or 280mg/day?
Please do not respond, here, start your own thread.
Is there such thing as a good protocol for HGH? The place I go for T just annouced they will be scripting HGH. I’ve read it can be dangerouse but the stuff they are pushing says it promotes better mood, sex, motabolizim, faster healing… It sounds good but whats the proper protocol for such a thing. Im interested in trying it but Im doing just fine on my TRT…
As with TRT, injecting GH will suppress your own production. If you are younger and producing 1iu per day on your own, if you then inject 1iu, your serum IGF-1 levels will not change much, probably would stay the same. So that means a cost of around $3,600 per year for nothing. If you inject 1.5iu per day, then your IGF-1 would increase about 50% above your baseline and that will cost $5400.
So you can see from the above that the benefits of injected GH go to those who have a deficiency.
For someone who is deficient, T+GH has a much better results that T or GH alone.
Getting Rx hGH at $10 per unit is hard to find, often the cost will be higher.
Thanks Im really not sure what my GH levels are maybe its in one of my old labs… Im pretty sure the cost is $80 per bottle of HGH at the spa… I’ll ask what brand/other info they have on it before I try it. Would HGH promote a decrease in scar tissue or increaces it? I have alot of scar tissue in shoulder and need to break it up for 100% The doc wants to do a manipulation to break it up but Im fearful that could result in a new tear. Would HGH at 5iu EOD or ED be a good short cut to 100% recovery with the ability to skip manipulation? Should I consider uping my T past 100mg per week to promote healing?
Sir,
How would you adjust this protocol for subq?