TRT: Protocol for Injections

Pharma TRT
221

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
[u]THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THAT THOUSANDS OF MEN ARE DOING FINE ON TEST INJECTIONS ALONE!!![/u]

…

If 90% of men do just fine on Test alone (be it gels, creams, or injections) then why fret because the doctor is ill prepared to deal with that special 10%? I know my generation has been brought up to believe we are all unique snowflakes that need a custom tailored protocol to suit our super special bodies, but the numbers don’t lie.

If you are not getting the treatment you need, that has a 90% chance of being successful without any additional ancillaries, why on earth would you pass that opportunity just to hedge your bets in case you are in that 10%? [/quote]
VTB, what source(s) do you have to support your repeated assertions that the great majority of men do fine on T alone? My impression based on what I’ve read here and elsewhere is very much to the contrary, but I’ve certainly never seen any definitive study of how satisfied men suffering low T are with their various treatment plans - and I’m always more persuaded by actual evidence than mere opinion, in any event. ;^]

222

That’s because the guys that are doing fine have no reasons to go on message boards seeking answers. The fact that guys have issues seek help is biasing your opinion since that is all you see.

There is no one stop source for this, but I have pieced it together over the past couple years from speaking with guys personally who are on T only TRT without issues, studies indicating the amount of men that may be hypogonadal, literature from Big Pharm stating how many men use their products, participating in probably the 4 most popular T deficiency websites on the internet, etc.

The fact that T deficiency is so common and so often treated, yet virtually zero documents accompany that with Adex and HCG is reason alone to draw this conclusion. There are many men these doctors see for this deficiency–don’t you think if every single one of them came back complaining of still feeling shitty, the docs might be suspicious of the product?

223

What I think is that your reasoning is largely circular (treatment with T alone is most common, therefore the best treatment must most often be with T alone), and what is apparent to me is that you have no real evidence supporting your contention that most men (let alone 90% of men) being treated for hypogonadism with T alone are satisfied with their treatment. But that’s ok; you’re of course as entitled to your personal opinion as is anyone else. As I said, though, I find actual evidence much more persuasive than mere opinion.

My personal experience, which admittedly doesn’t yet amount to much, is that some doctors prescribe T alone because they don’t know about and so don’t consider whether medications such as hCG and AI might be beneficial in combination with T, and even some doctors who know at least something about hCG and AI still don’t know enough to consider this treatment possibility. And I’ve already talked with enough doctors (and heard many people report on enough others) to believe this unfortunate situation is extremely common.

And my personal belief, as I suggested above, is that none of us should financially support doctors who treat men for hypogonadism when they’re not really competent to prescribe such treatment. We should keep looking until we find genuinely knowledgeable doctors, and support them by allowing them to treat us. But of course, that’s just my personal opinion. :^]

224

The 90% vs 10% was hyperbole. It is often used to make a point. You can discredit my years of experience if you want and call it mere “opinion”–it really doesn’t effect me one way or another…

I could put together all the evidence that you seek, but that would take hours of my time and I am nowhere near inclined to do that…

If you want to keep postponing your medical treatment until the stars and moons align, that’s your prerogative…leave no stone unturned in your journey…

225

WOw thats a lot of hcg in the op is that really necessary? I know guys have been on test replacement for a long time yet never heard of them using hcg also. Do I need that much hcg? I use that dose when on full cycle of 750mg+ of test a week.

226

[quote]shizen wrote:
WOw thats a lot of hcg in the op is that really necessary? I know guys have been on test replacement for a long time yet never heard of them using hcg also. Do I need that much hcg? I use that dose when on full cycle of 750mg+ of test a week. [/quote]

This is actually not a lot of HCG at all…and there is a reason we recommend the same amount on TRT as those using AAS…its meant as a REPLACEMENT dose…no more, no less…so yeah, the fact that is what you used is not at all surprising…

Its weird you think that is “a lot” of HCG when there are some moronic websites out there recommending thousands of iu PER DAY…

The fact that you know many guys on TRT without HCG may or may not be relevant…how do they feel on their protocols? I personally do not recommend HCG until there is a demonstrated need, based on symptoms (shrunken nads, low pregnenolone symptoms, etc) and bloodwork (LH/FSH = 0). Everyone’s mileage will vary.

Personally, I have not yet needed HCG on 160 mg/week of T because my LH/FSH is not shut down at that level.

227

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I’ve been mulling this protocol over for the past couple months. With the influx of new posters we are getting here due to our prominence in google search, we are finding it to be much less applicable for guys right out the gate.

When this stickey was written, we were a smaller community of people already on TRT and dealt with mostly statistical outliers who found us because their regular TRT just was not getting the job done. These people are well advised to investigate the protocol in this stickey, or at least be aware of the symptoms it will correct (and how to verify those symptoms and improvements with bloodwork and biological feedback).

However the new guys seem to be looking to get on TRT in the first place, trying to determine whether their symptoms could be caused by Low T, or are trying to get to the bottom of some other non-T related hormonal issue (cortisol, thyroid, etc.).

I am alarmed at the number of them who postpone getting the initial medical help they need because they want all the stars and moons to align so that their doctor prescribes them this exact protocol right out the gate. To make matters worse, they sometimes print the stickey out verbatim and go in to their initial doctor’s appointment demanding this protocol (without the accompanying knowledge of WHY) , alienating their doctors from the get go.

[u]THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THAT THOUSANDS OF MEN ARE DOING FINE ON TEST INJECTIONS ALONE!!![/u]

Even the ones on the fucked up every two weeks protocol!!!

Not everyone needs hcg and an AI, despite what you read in the stickeys. And I would advocate that no one needs it right out the gate.

Now that you’re here, you have an appreciation for what other factors need to be accounted for as you start TRT. You know what symptoms to look out for and what likely causes are, and most importantly, how to remedy them. This is great knowledge to have in your back pocket, but take the easiest approach first!

It’s easier to work with your doctor in baby steps. I would suggest trying T alone and then trying to convince your doc to add things in incrementally.

If all else fails, and your doctor continues to be a moron despite you not feeling good on your current protocol and with bloodwork/physical symptoms to back up your need for the protocol, the good news is that AI’s and HCG are readily available from underground sources on the www. You may be forced to self treat in that regard for a while, but by then you will be far ahead of where you are now.[/quote]

This is the answer I was looking for as I read this thread. I recently found out I have low T levels and am in negoations with my doc on a treatment. So this thread is not for people just starting TRT. If, after a few weeks and other tests, it is determined I’m not feeling right, this might play a factor??

228

Yes but with some disclaimers:

You should always get all of the recommended blood work before starting any hormone treatments (to get a solid baseline in case you are one of the hard to fix cases).

You should look to uncover and correct any adrenal(cortisol) or thyroid issues before jumping into hormone treatment program.

You should educate yourself and be aware of the most likely potential issues and some of the potential solutions since you know you can not rely 100% on your doctor’s expertise or your doctor being 100% fully vested in your care.

229

helluva thread…thanks KSman for all the info

230

Just curious as to why you recommend the 29 gauge 0.5" 0.5 ml insulin syringes, but not the 29 gauge, o.5", 1.0 ml insulin syringes?

I’ve just begun TRT, and plan on doing Sub-Q injections 2 x per week into my bellyfat @ 50-60 mg per injection. I bought a package of 29 gauge 0.5" (1/2" needle) 1.0 ml syringes, but now I read that you say Do Not Use these ones. Just curious as to the reason why not.

Thanks

231

Just curious as to why you recommend the 29 gauge 0.5" 0.5 ml insulin syringes, but not the 29 gauge, o.5", 1.0 ml insulin syringes?

I’ve just begun TRT, and plan on doing Sub-Q injections 2 x per week into my bellyfat @ 50-60 mg per injection. I bought a package of 29 gauge 0.5" (1/2" needle) 1.0 ml syringes, but now I read that you say Do Not Use these ones. Just curious as to the reason why not.

Thanks

232

KSman

whenever you have some time if you could take a look:

im planning to follow your protocol 100mgs weekly divided in 3 shots sub Q on mond, wed ,frid

250 ius of hcg EOD

ARIMIDEX .25 EOD

My question is …if T shots are done on mon ,wed ,fri…what days are the best to take the hcg and arimidex doses…same days as t shots , day before T shots or after??

thank you ,Sir

233

[quote]killergoalie wrote:
Just curious as to why you recommend the 29 gauge 0.5" 0.5 ml insulin syringes, but not the 29 gauge, o.5", 1.0 ml insulin syringes?

I’ve just begun TRT, and plan on doing Sub-Q injections 2 x per week into my bellyfat @ 50-60 mg per injection. I bought a package of 29 gauge 0.5" (1/2" needle) 1.0 ml syringes, but now I read that you say Do Not Use these ones. Just curious as to the reason why not.

Thanks[/quote]

They are fine. I wasn’t aware 1.0 mL existed. You may have trouble generating enough pressure with these though and injection time may be slow, whereas with the 0.5 mL it is very quick.

234

[quote]3RDBASE wrote:
KSman

whenever you have some time if you could take a look:

im planning to follow your protocol 100mgs weekly divided in 3 shots sub Q on mond, wed ,frid

250 ius of hcg EOD

ARIMIDEX .25 EOD

My question is …if T shots are done on mon ,wed ,fri…what days are the best to take the hcg and arimidex doses…same days as t shots , day before T shots or after??

thank you ,Sir[/quote]

Easiest just to take it all the same day (3x/week)…no need to complicate things…tweak it if you don’t feel right.

235

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]killergoalie wrote:
Just curious as to why you recommend the 29 gauge 0.5" 0.5 ml insulin syringes, but not the 29 gauge, o.5", 1.0 ml insulin syringes?

I’ve just begun TRT, and plan on doing Sub-Q injections 2 x per week into my bellyfat @ 50-60 mg per injection. I bought a package of 29 gauge 0.5" (1/2" needle) 1.0 ml syringes, but now I read that you say Do Not Use these ones. Just curious as to the reason why not.

Thanks[/quote]

They are fine. I wasn’t aware 1.0 mL existed. You may have trouble generating enough pressure with these though and injection time may be slow, whereas with the 0.5 mL it is very quick.[/quote]

Thanks, VTBalla34, that’s good to know. I’ll use the 0.5 ml ones then.

Good thing I only bought a pkg of 10 1.0 ml syringes.

236

I’d be curious to see how the injection time is for you. Stop by and give us an update after a few pins.

237

Will do, VTBalla34.

238

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]3RDBASE wrote:
KSman

whenever you have some time if you could take a look:

im planning to follow your protocol 100mgs weekly divided in 3 shots sub Q on mond, wed ,frid

250 ius of hcg EOD

ARIMIDEX .25 EOD

My question is …if T shots are done on mon ,wed ,fri…what days are the best to take the hcg and arimidex doses…same days as t shots , day before T shots or after??

thank you ,Sir[/quote]

Easiest just to take it all the same day (3x/week)…no need to complicate things…tweak it if you don’t feel right.
[/quote]

Thank you, Sir.

239

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I’d be curious to see how the injection time is for you. Stop by and give us an update after a few pins.[/quote]

Just finished my first Sub-Q self injection. (Actually it was my first self injection ever of any type.)

Used a #29 Gauge, 1.0 C.C. 0.5" (1/2") Needle, Insulin Syringe.

Took about 2.5 - 3 minutes to load the syringe with 50mg of 100MG/ML strength Testosterone-Cypionate, and about 1 minute to inject.

Needed a fair amount of pressure on the plunger to inject, but slow, and steady pressure got the job done.

I injected it into my belly fat about 4 inches to the right of my navel. I also injected at 90° since I still have quite a bit of fat around my stomach.

Felt absolutely no pain whatsoever.

There was only a very small drop of blood at the spot after I removed the needle, which I wiped away with a cotton ball, after I applied gentle pressure to it for a
minute or so.

So far, no pain, bruising, swelling at the injection site, but I’ll give it a while.

For my next injection, which will be around 8:00 P.M. on Wednesday, I might try using a #29 Gauge, 0.5 C.C. 0.5" (1/2") Needle, Insulin syringe to see if it produces a bit more pressure while injecting.

Anyway sorry for the lengthy post, I just wanted to be as thorough as possible in case others were considering doing Sub-Q injections, and wanted a bit of information concerning timing issues. Esp using a 1.0 C.C. 0.5" (1/2") Needle, Insulin Syringe.

240

How long (approximately) would it take for the described protocol above to start working? after heavy cycling for most of last year (never again) I’ve been trying different trt protocols myself and have yet found my “sweet spot” hopefuly this one will work.

also , I forgot to add how much pregnolone and DHEA is recommended daily??

Thank you ,guys and im sorry, just wanna make sure I cover all bases.