Yes, if you want optimal libido. And libido is the best measure of how things are working as we are very aware of libido or lack thereof.
Other methods are not able to make major changes. Yes, EOD shots will be helpful relative to weekly. Loosing fat is helpful, but one often needs lower E levels to do that.
KSMan, there appear to be some negatives to long term HCG use such as the suppression of LH and FSH. Most TRT doctors seem to prescribe the 250 iu eod protocol as part of the overall TRT protocol. Wouldnāt it be better to cycle HCG say every month or so take it for a few weeks at 500 iu eod and repeat? Thoughts?
A dose of hCG that is a replacement dose for LH should not have any reason to be cycled. Do we need to turn off LH to cycle it for young normal males?
What advantages were you thinking of? I have not seen any evidence for any advantage or speculated benefits.
We are typically not looking for optimizing testicular production of T in a TRT context, because exogenous T does the heavy lifting.
If you are thinking of hCG as a mono therapy, then there are some theoretical concerns. Not known if cycling would address those concerns or do anything to improve QOL with cycles of crashed T levels. For those where hCG monotherapy works [younger men with secondary hypogonadism] I have not see reports that the method fades.
LH is released in pulses. It is known that constant infusion of LH creating steady levels blunts the response. Nevertheless, 250iu hCG SC EOD was shown to produce good T levels in young males who had their LH levels repressed. The study was not long term. Yes, there are unknowns.
I admit Iām a neophyte with this stuff. I was concerned about long term suppression of LH but I guess if youāre on HRT, LH is suppressed regardless. I guess the other angle is the effectiveness of HCG could possibly go down with long term continuous use (with no breaks) but like you said; I guess there are still unknowns.
Have I read correctly in that injecting Test Cyp at 250mg 2x week is to much for someone with really low numbers. How would one get back on a lower dosing schedule without to many issues. Doctor hasnt even mentioned any of the other meds that have been discussed throughout this thread that should be used in conjuction with the T inj. I wondered why I felt more tired after the last 2 weeks of injectingā¦seems to me it was too much T.
This does not belong here. Please open your own thread to discuss your particular issues. -thanks
Most of your concerns reflect a lack of understanding. Most docs are clueless, you would know that if you had read the stickies. Yes, that dose is insane, we can discuss in your own thread.
No, it would have helped to have found this forum before startingā¦but hey thanks for the response.
WOW this is very interesting i had my doctor check my test levels and they were low and he put me on androgel about a year ago and that was all he did i never been tested after that and he never said anything about hcg or hgh and my libido at times seems to be there then at times seems to fall away
This does not belong here. Please open your own thread to discuss your particular issues. -thanks
You can look forward to big improvements.
Id like to start with 75mg Test E, 250iu HCG and 0.5mg Anastrozole E3D, all at the same time.
Could this work?
This is a sticky. We do not want to have individualās case details messing up the stickies.
Please read this before you do anything else.
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_trt/prototype_advice_for_new_guy
I do not want to respond to your questions in this sticky.
Unfortunately, this old sticky demonstrates how how bad things get by been treated as a chat room.
I will need to create a replacement for this sticky that drops all of the chatter.
Okā¦I am on page 5 of this (awesome) thread. Great threadā¦just saw the above post about not posting in this thread. Will check out the link and see where to post thingsā¦
KSman thank for the straight talk ā¦that was and is the most informative article i have ever seen written on the subjectā¦thanks broā¦
Hi all, great forum! I hope I am posting in the right place for this.
I have a question on Testosterone Cyprionate injections. My doc started me on 200mg shots every 2 weeks. First one I had good results in a day or so, high libido, energy etc. As many have experienced on here, it tapered off after 5-6 day. Based on a lot of posts, I got my doc to switch me to 100mg weekly. I am 2 days in now and donāt seem to be getting the same results. From all I have searched, 100mg weekly seems to be the best interval.
Has anyone else had this happen? Thanks in advance for any replies.
[quote]Urbanwarrior wrote:
From all I have searched, 100mg weekly seems to be the best interval.
[/quote]
Are you sure youāve read this thread? There is a reason we recommend 2-3x/week injections instead of once a week or fortnightly.
Do not put your case into the stickies. Open your own thread for your case!!!
Read the advice for new guys sticky.
[quote]KSman wrote:
Do not put your case into the stickies. Open your own thread for your case!!!
Read the advice for new guys sticky.[/quote]
Will do.
Iāve been mulling this protocol over for the past couple months. With the influx of new posters we are getting here due to our prominence in google search, we are finding it to be much less applicable for guys right out the gate.
When this stickey was written, we were a smaller community of people already on TRT and dealt with mostly statistical outliers who found us because their regular TRT just was not getting the job done. These people are well advised to investigate the protocol in this stickey, or at least be aware of the symptoms it will correct (and how to verify those symptoms and improvements with bloodwork and biological feedback).
However the new guys seem to be looking to get on TRT in the first place, trying to determine whether their symptoms could be caused by Low T, or are trying to get to the bottom of some other non-T related hormonal issue (cortisol, thyroid, etc.).
I am alarmed at the number of them who postpone getting the initial medical help they need because they want all the stars and moons to align so that their doctor prescribes them this exact protocol right out the gate. To make matters worse, they sometimes print the stickey out verbatim and go in to their initial doctorās appointment demanding this protocol (without the accompanying knowledge of WHY) , alienating their doctors from the get go.
[u]THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THAT THOUSANDS OF MEN ARE DOING FINE ON TEST INJECTIONS ALONE!!![/u]
Even the ones on the fucked up every two weeks protocol!!!
Not everyone needs hcg and an AI, despite what you read in the stickeys. And I would advocate that no one needs it right out the gate.
Now that youāre here, you have an appreciation for what other factors need to be accounted for as you start TRT. You know what symptoms to look out for and what likely causes are, and most importantly, how to remedy them. This is great knowledge to have in your back pocket, but take the easiest approach first!
Itās easier to work with your doctor in baby steps. I would suggest trying T alone and then trying to convince your doc to add things in incrementally.
If all else fails, and your doctor continues to be a moron despite you not feeling good on your current protocol and with bloodwork/physical symptoms to back up your need for the protocol, the good news is that AIās and HCG are readily available from underground sources on the www. You may be forced to self treat in that regard for a while, but by then you will be far ahead of where you are now.
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I am alarmed at the number of [men] who postpone getting the initial medical help they need because they want all the stars and moons to align so that their doctor prescribes them this exact protocol right out the gateā¦
Itās easier to work with your doctor in baby steps. I would suggest trying T alone and then trying to convince your doc to add things in incrementally.
If all else fails, and your doctor continues to be a moron despite you not feeling good on your current protocol and with bloodwork/physical symptoms to back up your need for the protocol, the good news is that AIās and HCG are readily available from underground sources on the www. You may be forced to self treat in that regard for a while, but by then you will be far ahead of where you are now.[/quote]
I reckon Iām probably one of those newcomers to this forum that youāre referring to above, VTB, so Iāll reply to you here (just as I did in my own thread, in which you offered essentially the same advice in response to my asking for help finding a doctor in the Dallas-Fort Worth area who is actually up on this stuff):
It just doesnāt sit right with me to see a doctor and follow his/her prescribed treatment for me when I have evidence to indicate that s/he doesnāt really know what s/heās doing. Itās not a question of whether everyone needs HCG and an AI, but of whether a given doctor is willing and able to prescribe such medications for those who should get them. We shouldnāt be paying doctors for trying to work in areas in which theyāre not competent. We shouldnāt have to doctor ourselves to make up for their incompetences, either.
I agree with your premise, and this was not a slight at you (though I do think you are one of the posters that made me reconsider all this), but the fact of the matter remains we do not live in a perfect world with ideal scenarios. If you know how to correct that and get the medical community on the right path, then Iām all ears.
If 90% of men do just fine on Test alone (be it gels, creams, or injections) then why fret because the doctor is ill prepared to deal with that special 10%? I know my generation has been brought up to believe we are all unique snowflakes that need a custom tailored protocol to suit our super special bodies, but the numbers donāt lie.
If you are not getting the treatment you need, that has a 90% chance of being successful without any additional ancillaries, why on earth would you pass that opportunity just to hedge your bets in case you are in that 10%? At least get started in the right directionāyou will spend years looking for the right doctor and chasing your tail in the meantime if not