HCG will not cause harm. If you feel fine that’s what counts.
I’ll copy/paste your questions and ask Dr. Grant. Some of my replies here were copy/pastes of what he was saying.
Sometimes I feel waaaaaay better if I take a small amount of my AI. Less breakouts and oily skin. I’ve had a hard time finding my sweet spot though. I think I might be one of those men that feel better when my e2 is in the lower range. If I take a small amount of AI the day of injection I notice morning wood returns. If e2 climbs too much I start to feel like crap. When I go back to two injections a week I’ll probably be able to shift away from taking it.
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Dr Grant provided this:
Not necessarily. It has been consistently shown that about 50% of men below 300 to 350 ng/dl (which scale/method? → we dont know and thats why hormone testing harmonization is so important) dont show any of the typical androgen deficiency symptoms.
For me personally the threshold seems to be around 450 ng/dl. For others it might be higer, especially if SHBG is high. I know a guy in my runners club which is at 260, runs half marathons, plays soccer 2x a week and feels happy and strong at age 46.
I dont have anything against TRT, quite contrary. It allows me to be active and full of life again. What I dont agree with is that i) every men below 300 to 400 needs TRT to feel well and be healthy and ii) if you dont find symptom relief in the physiological range you are not dialed in and you need to increase your dose.
The argument that our grandgrandfathers had average T levels of 1500 is only partly valid. Firtsly we dont know this for sure (although admittedly there is some data which suggests this) and secondly they lived very different lifes than we do (they also had a 15 to 20 years lower life expectancy). My grandgrand and my grandfather did a physically demanding job for 10 to 12 hours per day, mostly outside. I sit in an office all day. The 3 hours gym per week is not able to compensate for all the sitting around. We know that an increase in T, age and a sedentary lifestyle can be a risky combo.
In the end its to find the right balance between benefit and risk(including the we dont know).
Yes thats correct. They used the 100 samples per cohort to determine the offset between the samples. The data of the 1185 men was then calibrated to the CDC method and used to determine the ref standard.
I never said, for the record, that every man below 300-400 needs TRT.
IF a man is symptomatic, with all symptoms related to symptoms of low T, they can do a trial of TRT to see if it alleviates their symptoms. If it does, testosterone was the issue. If it doesn’t, testosterone was not the issue. However, I do not believe the dose should have a ceiling based on “your numbers are good”. I’ve seen way too many men with ‘good numbers’ whose lives were transformed with TRT.
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100% agreed.
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Thank you for the feedback. It was interesting to see the specific signalling differences between LH and HCG once they attached to the LHCG receptor. The same pathways were activated but to varying degrees and through different time domains, altering cAMP and progesterone concentrations. However, the tests were done on ovarian cells. It isnt surprising that LH/HCG would have a more varied and intricate expression in females given their great importance in fetal development. Men are a sidenote in these studies for good reason. Our reproductive system feels like a one trick pony next to the ladies’. It would be interesting to see the same study of HCG vs LH on the leydigs. I did notice that one area that was still under research was extragonadal expression of LH/HCG. Initial results were pointing towards HCG playing a greater role in LHCGr activation outside of the gonads. Im curious to see how this shakes out. The benefits i get from hcg are subtle but seem to be more broad than just leydig stimulation.
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interesting that your E2 is so high, the lab actually makes note that SERM’s may increase that reading. Which serm are you taking as part of your protocol?
Reloxifen is what I use. My understanding is it stops the potential for gyno.
@blizzardtest an additional reply from Dr Grant (who also asked why you aren’t in our group but I understand not everyone has FB):
LH and HCG differ in the beta subunit. They aren’t the same thing. There is scant data on stimulation of LH receptors, IN MEN, outside of the gonads.
My biggest concern would be chronic stimulation of a receptor that was meant to be “pulsed”.
People would make that argument against testosterone, but its’ different because of the time delay with testosterone, being active ALL the time, vs LH being pulsed and fast acting on the leydig cells of the testes (in normal guys who aren’t on TRT).
I agree with Eric Serrano on HCG. Likely some niche uses for it, but shouldn’t be a “basic” part of standard TRT
Yes but I’m curious if the raloxifene is giving a false positive high E2 reading. Did you ever get bloods on HCG mono without the serm?
No I have not
The pulse theory lines up with my anecdotal evidence. HCG didn’t work long term for me until I started lower EOD doses. Also TRT has worked best for me on a daily basis, with shorter esters. The longer I’ve been in this game the more respect I’m getting for modulating both sides of the equation…on one side there is the presence of the hormones and on the other is the receptor. Flooding one side(hormones) and paying no mind to the receptor(upregulation and down regulation, sensitivity, and density) is overlooked. I think it’s one of the reasons many men fail with TRT despite otherwise good looking numbers. I’d love to see more research on this area. I think I’ve seen @dextermorgan say how he bumps his dose up and down on a rolling 2-3 week cycle? And with respect to FB. I have it. What’s the group?
TRT and Hormone Optimization (just like the YouTube channel). Send me a PM there so I know who you are (if you’d like so I can introduce you to Jordan Grant etc). Just answer the 3 questions when you join otherwise a mod may decline your request before I have the chance to approve it.
Yes that’s correct. 185mg for two weeks then 200mg for two weeks and repeat. I got that from everyone’s favorite fraudulent endo but I must say it does work well for libido.
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It’s interesting… I am on a fairly high dose but never need to cycle it whatsoever. Libido and erections are consistent all the time. I never have to touch my protocol anymore.
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Definitely is interesting. Common threads in all of our experience but so different at the same time. The discussions are important too. Keep pushing the science forward
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Dr Grant is happy you’re joining 
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It’s not really needed nor would I recommend it to anyone. I was perfectly fine before trying it. I went from healthy sexual appetite to T-Rex. T-Rex isn’t always the better option.