This is more to share my experience in a short log, lessons learned than a question. Comments ideas etc. welcome
Had low T (300’s) & Started TRT a couple of months ago… what seems to be the standard 200mg.p/w
injected IM Sunday, 1g Anatrazole in two 0.5 capsules Monday & Tuesday, and HCG to maintain the eggs Friday, Saturday.
Was on a total roller-coaster the first few weeks… totally amped first few days, couldn’t sleep, oozing oil, high bp, hot flashes etc. (high test/e2?) then leveled out mid week and started going into depressive / downer end of week. (low test/e2?)
Maybe it’s just me but the weekly frequency didn’t make sense / feel good at all. I hear the body tends to spike test levels on a daily basis so figured I would change this protocol to match the natural one… one deterrent to more frequent dosage is the number of IM injects, not fun… did some research and apparently SubQ (shallow injecting with an insulin size syringe into the fat) works just as good if not better with test. These are really easy and pretty much painless.
In addition I’d need to divide the anatrazole dosage… so mixed this in distilled water 4ml to one 0.5 cap. and take 1ml a day (0.125pd). HCG 100 per day also subq.
I will have my e2 tested once I’ve been on this protocol for over a week or two…
I’ve been doing this for a few days now and definitely feel better / more stable, but time will tell, although I think after testing I’ll be able to fine tune the e2 levels to perfection.
Good thread. I have been on TRT for almost 10 years (holy shit) and have been doing subq - twice weekly - for the last 4 of that. The daily thing is a bit much for me as I travel about 80% of the time, but I could see it being even better. From my experience, the subq keeps me more level as opposed to IM.
Just my opinion - but you aren’t matching the natural production. With a daily dose of cypionate, you basically have zero peak/trough.
Its not the worst idea ever, but likely unnecessary. I started on every day injections… then moved to EOD. With both frequencies, noticed no difference in feel or on bloodwork. Just recently - I moved to E3D. Even at this dose, the levels will be pretty damn consistent.
I think you would feel the benefit with any frequency greater than once a week.
BTW - did you say your dose is 200 a week? Thats not a “standard” starting dose.
You could take anastrazole EOD because of it’s half-life.
I agree with the thinking of daily injectins. Two questions come to mind when I consider the difference between daily and bi-weekly dosing.
I wonder if there is some advantage to these higher spikes. Like does it have an overall lasting effect on how the body mobilizes energy to synthesize proteins or is it as short lived as the spike? Since daily or EOD dosing lowers this spike, could it also mean reduced gains?
Conversely, could daily or EOD dosing possible INCREASE the action of testosterone by reducing high-dose-desensitizing.
You may ignore these thoughts as I have a lot like them and I know the research isn’t out there anyway. It’s just something to consider. The reason I asked myself these questions is because I wondered if the daily doses should be higher, lower, or exactly one-seventh of a weekly dose to achieve similar anabolic activity.
Also, whether the effectiveness of hCG doses are moderated by Test doses.
It sounds like your dose of testosterone may be too high.
200mg/wk is an aggressive starting protocol, and will increase your chances of spiking your E2. If you lower your dose you may not even need to take the Anastrozole, which would be ideal.
Many guys start at 100mg/wk and titrate up if necessary.
Consider lowering your dose a bit, and I would absolutely suggest splitting your dose into 2 injections each week.
Thanks Icarus, good to hear subq is working from a Test veteran…
Interesting thoughts on stability of test vs spikes
I have no idea how quickly it is absorbed subq and weather daily would crate a flat line or daily bumps on a chart… searched around and seems there’s little on the subject or maybe I’m not looking in the right places. Could be that E3D or EOD is sufficient … but these subq’s are so easy daily isn’t much of a bother. Anyone seen a chart or data on this?
On the 200mg dose I tested in the 633’s Total.T and 21 free.T after 3 weeks of weekly injects, that doesn’t seem excessive? maybe I’ll dial it down to 150mg if this daily subq protocol doesn’t solve the issues.
633 is lower than I would expect from 200mg/wk. How many days after your injection was the blood drawn? That’s with hCG too right and how are your testes responding to it? It could be that more frequency could increase levels, especially the baseline however spikes with 200mg may have caused some changes that could take time to correct like SHBG or receptor down-regulation though not necessarily.
If you’re pinning Test C every day, you’re kind of taking the bad side of it without taking advantage of the good side (less often pinning). You might think about switching to Test Prop. You’ll probably pick up less water weight than Test C and since you’re pinning so often, you won’t have to deal with big swings of your T level.
At 150-200 mg/week, an everyday shot is going to be really small, but there might be a little more PIP than with Test C.
Blood test was the day before the next weekly shot, end of week, lowest point. so yes, it would certainly be higher on average, so you’re prob right on the dose being high? what is the optimum T range for 40? … I figure once I’ve done this daily protocol for a week I’ll get a accurate read on T&E2… see what their “true” average values are.
HCG seems to be working fine for me, they had me at 1000 per week but I brought that down to <700 & still grande cojones
[quote]i8bob wrote:
Blood test was the day before the next weekly shot, end of week, lowest point. so yes, it would certainly be higher on average, so you’re prob right on the dose being high? what is the optimum T range for 40? … I figure once I’ve done this daily protocol for a week I’ll get a accurate read on T&E2… see what their “true” average values are.
HCG seems to be working fine for me, they had me at 1000 per week but I brought that down to <700 & still grande cojones[/quote]
When are you taking your hCG? Did you take it the week that you had labs drawn?
633 at the end of the week is still pretty good but my guess is part of that is due to the hCG. At the end of three days you’d probably be closer to 1100(guessing) maybe higher.
Absorption of creams is so varied from person to person there’s really no way to accurately estimate the equivalent without testing. My guess is it would take a super concentration to be equivalent.
Fat Boy 33 - thanks for the tip on prop, will inquire once I’ve used all the cyp up (3 months worth)
AlwaysUp - you’re a smart one… you got me, I failed to mention I skipped HCG that week… traveling for work before the tests.
So that week Tuesday 200mg test on Tuesday 0.5 anatrazol Wednesday 0.5 anatrazol. Following Tuesday morning tested: TotalT=633, FreeT=21, E2=16.7
Appreciate the wisdom folks, has got me thinking and researching. Certainly looks like I’ll need to dial back this dose a bit 100/150. Would be nice to eliminate the e2 issues and AI. Will be scheduling labs today, sounds like this is going to take some tweaking.
Quick update… Day 5
Feeling much more stable as the week has progressed and seems my E2 levels are coming under control, well that’s based on feel and notable lack of sides not oozing oil, little anger, good sleep patterns, good mood, morning wood. Will try get tested next week. On testing, which I find bazar in the US system, you can’t just book and pay for labs with Labcorp for a test, have to have a script from a doc!!!.. wtf? ok done bitching but main point is no wild swings throughout the week as expected.
Again, this is with a daily dose of the (1/4 dose of the 0.5 Anstrazole cap i.e. 0.125mg) and 1/7 of 200mg weekly test Subq and 100mcg HCG daily.
I was under the impression that the US would allow self testing. It’s like in Canada then. Basically to avoid having people self-diagnose which for most people is a bad idea all around. People on here talk about some LEF testing which might be a workaround for the standard biolabs.
[quote]Fat Boy 33 wrote:
If you’re pinning Test C every day, you’re kind of taking the bad side of it without taking advantage of the good side (less often pinning). You might think about switching to Test Prop. You’ll probably pick up less water weight than Test C and since you’re pinning so often, you won’t have to deal with big swings of your T level.
At 150-200 mg/week, an everyday shot is going to be really small, but there might be a little more PIP than with Test C.
Just throwing that idea out there.[/quote]
I switched from t-cyp to t-prop and it was fantastic. Took identical weekly amounts, which meant a little less prop since there is less ester weight. I took nightly shots, thinking that would cause the highest spike overnight/morning, and I woke up with raging hardons every morning. Loved it.
Unfortunately, my t-prop had ethyl oleate in it, and it made me stink. Got so bad that it impacted the primary activity that all the T was good for…yes, my wife truly thought I stunk.
So, back to t-cyp. I still hope to get my hands on some test acetate, which doesn’t have the problems prop does that lead to use of ethyl oleate, and try switching to that.
[quote]i8bob wrote:
Quick update… Day 5
Feeling much more stable as the week has progressed and seems my E2 levels are coming under control, well that’s based on feel and notable lack of sides not oozing oil, little anger, good sleep patterns, good mood, morning wood. Will try get tested next week. On testing, which I find bazar in the US system, you can’t just book and pay for labs with Labcorp for a test, have to have a script from a doc!!!.. wtf? ok done bitching but main point is no wild swings throughout the week as expected.
Again, this is with a daily dose of the (1/4 dose of the 0.5 Anstrazole cap i.e. 0.125mg) and 1/7 of 200mg weekly test Subq and 100mcg HCG daily.[/quote]
Due to state laws, we cannot provide services for RESIDENTS in NY, NJ, MA, MD or RI. …
Well so much for that workaround… either I drive to CT/NH or lef has a blood lab kit they send out, they say you should use a local clinic… in other words D.I.Y. blood draw and mail back, twisted regulation.
While I would expect your total T to be higher at the end of the week after a 200mg injection, it’s not unheard of to be in the 600’s at that point. The fact that you skipped your hCG that week would certainly cause your T to be lower than it normally would be.
Your E2 of 16.7, was that a sensitive test? If not, your E2 is likely much lower than that. Too low for sure. I’d either cut back on the Anastrozole or, ideally, split your T dose into 2 weekly injections. You may not need an AI at all.