Trinity - Bible Teaching or Doctrine of Man

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]GCF wrote:
Trib,

what is your interest in the JW’s? Why have you expended so much time and energy investigating and studying them? What’s the motive?[/quote]
It wasn’t just them. I became proficient. quite so actually, in mormonism, eastern religions, the way international, the unification church, christian science, European redaction liberalism and to a somewhat lesser extent Islam. There were also several other smaller outfits like the theosophical society and swedenborgianism that I dipped into a bit.

My first passion as far as defending the faith was concerned was the word of faith movement which was everywhere back then, even in orthodox denominations, despite being a comprehensive collection of thoroughgoing metaphysical heresy. I have a bunch of tapes I did back then on them too. Of course I was still primarily hammering out my own personal theology too.

I had a personal library of over 2000 volumes and 800 tapes with roughly half of it being cultic crap and yes I spent ALOT of time studying.

Why? Because I felt I was called to do it. Defend the faith once for all delivered to the saints. I’ve wondered in recent years if maybe I still am, but most of my library was in storage at my mother’s house and was destroyed in a fire there several years ago. Something I’m pondering and praying about. [/quote]
Tribilus, I listened to your tapes and all they are saying is your personal opinions. They aren’t saying anything different than a lot of the other websites. Pushharder gave links to websites that say the same thing you’re saying so it’s nothing new. You sounded like you had some earth shattering recorded information from one of our meetings or conventions. Man you ain’t saying nothin! LOL! Wow, the lengths people will go to to try to discredit Jehovah’s Witnesses. They do that because our beliefs are solidly grounded in any translation of the Bible and when discussed we can show them from any translation what the Bible really teaches. Tiribulus you can spend all day trying to make a tape from 20 years ago available but you can’t spend what should be a couple of minutes if the scriptures I used in my first post are so wrong, using scripture to back your statements up or using scriptures to refute any points from my first post on this thread.

I bet Dmaddox is so upset because he was so gushy when Tiribulus wrote his first post and acted like he had some earth shatter information that would make Jehovah’s Witnesses look bad.

If you want the real information on 1914 and how that year was a significant date come on over to Interested in a Serious Religious Debate part 2 and I’d be happy to explain the truth regarding how and why 1914 was a significant year. Please don’t listen to some guy who’s motive are to counter what Jehovah’s Witnesses are teaching from the Bible. He is not presenting this information in a fair and unbiased way and from what I heard from his recordings he is twisting and distorting the truth.

123

[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Jesus as the archangel was the highest ranking angel in heaven but he was not yet exalted to the position to the right hand of God’s power. As the chief angel he had no authority over earth. That’s because when Jesus was in heaven God was using kings like David to represent his rulership on earth. These kings of course were still in subjection to God which is why King Zedekiah was called a prince at Ezekiel 21:26,27 despite being a king. So Jesus in his pre-human existence had not yet been exalted and all things except God put under him. Once he died and was resurrected then he was given all authority in heaven and on earth. We see Jesus tell his disciple this at Matthew 28:18 (NIV):
"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

[/quote]

I thought Satan has authority over the earth?
[/quote]
God did not give Satan authority over the earth. He has allowed Satan to existence because Satan challenged God’s sovereignty when he implied to Eve that God was being unfair when he restricted both her and Adam from eating from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. Satan later in the book of Job said implied that he could corrupt all humans given the chance. So this called all humans integrity to God. So he has allowed Satan to have a strong influence on the world to see who is going to submit to Gods rule by follow his commandments as stated in his word the Bible and who will allow Satan to influence them and not submit to God’s rule. Those issues are currently being settled now.

124

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Tribilus, I listened to your tapes and all they are saying is your personal opinions. They aren’t saying anything different than a lot of the other websites. Pushharder gave links to websites that say the same thing you’re saying so it’s nothing new. You sounded like you had some earth shattering recorded information from one of our meetings or conventions. Man you ain’t saying nothin! LOL! Wow, the lengths people will go to to try to discredit Jehovah’s Witnesses. They do that because our beliefs are solidly grounded in any translation of the Bible and when discussed we can show them from any translation what the Bible really teaches. Tiribulus you can spend all day trying to make a tape from 20 years ago available but you can’t spend what should be a couple of minutes if the scriptures I used in my first post are so wrong, using scripture to back your statements up or using scriptures to refute any points from my first post on this thread.

I bet Dmaddox is so upset because he was so gushy when Tiribulus wrote his first post and acted like he had some earth shatter information that would make Jehovah’s Witnesses look bad.

If you want the real information on 1914 and how that year was a significant date come on over to Interested in a Serious Religious Debate part 2 and I’d be happy to explain the truth regarding how and why 1914 was a significant year. Please don’t listen to some guy who’s motive are to counter what Jehovah’s Witnesses are teaching from the Bible. He is not presenting this information in a fair and unbiased way and from what I heard from his recordings he is twisting and distorting the truth.[/quote]
OK, but I’m going to be so presumptuous as to say that I’m betting most people won’t see it this way. In case you missed it I said this was 22 years ago and I was reading from sources that were very old even then so “new” was not something I ever claimed. Right on cue. Mountains of documentation from their own materials and it’s all my opinion. If you actually did listen to it I will give you sincere credit for at least that. It’s more than I’ve ever gotten from any other JW. Oh yeah, just in case it isn’t obvious, the bolded emphasis is mine. That’ll keep em away fer sher. Here’s a revolutionary idea. How bout if they hear you AND me, in no particular order? You folks are really tragic man. I absolutely do not mean that sarcastically. I really don’t.

125

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Jesus as the archangel was the highest ranking angel in heaven but he was not yet exalted to the position to the right hand of God’s power. As the chief angel he had no authority over earth. That’s because when Jesus was in heaven God was using kings like David to represent his rulership on earth. These kings of course were still in subjection to God which is why King Zedekiah was called a prince at Ezekiel 21:26,27 despite being a king. So Jesus in his pre-human existence had not yet been exalted and all things except God put under him. Once he died and was resurrected then he was given all authority in heaven and on earth. We see Jesus tell his disciple this at Matthew 28:18 (NIV):
"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

[/quote]

I thought Satan has authority over the earth?
[/quote]
God did not give Satan authority over the earth. He has allowed Satan to existence because Satan challenged God’s sovereignty when he implied to Eve that God was being unfair when he restricted both her and Adam from eating from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. Satan later in the book of Job said implied that he could corrupt all humans given the chance. So this called all humans integrity to God. So he has allowed Satan to have a strong influence on the world to see who is going to submit to Gods rule by follow his commandments as stated in his word the Bible and who will allow Satan to influence them and not submit to God’s rule. Those issues are currently being settled now.[/quote]

This is not what you were saying earlier. You told us that when Jesus was tempted by Satan he had all authority over the Earth to give those things to Jesus. Now you are saying he doesn’t. I stated that Satan was lieing, and you stated that he was not lieing, that he had authority to give the kingdoms of Earth to Jesus.

So who is lieing now?

126

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
JWs action plan to debate.

Christian asks question to JW.
JW answers with a question that has nothing to do with the original question.
Christian restates Question asked to JW.
JW asks their question again saying it deals with context.
Christian answeres JW question.
JW then asks another question, but now refuses to answer the original question because it does not matter any more.
Christian asks the original question yet again.
JW asks another question.
Christian confronts the JW with the truth.
JW then calls Christian some name and attacks them personally.
JW states that only they know the true meaning of the Bible reguardless of whether the information provided to them is incorrect from a false prophet. JW admits that Russell had some flaws in his teachings, but they really know the truth now. They had to learn from their mistakes, but now they got it right. Russell believed that the Pyramid at Giza was just as Holy as the Temple in Jerusalem.

You think I got it?

I forgot one. Take every piece of scripture out of context and spin it so it meets their understanding/translation/interpretation, because they know the real truth, better than the people that actually lived and spoke with Christ.

mse2us and Honest_Lifter we have shown you guys over and over that you are wrong, but you just do not get it. I have stated this before and I will state it again. Your beleifs do not make you any different than Satan. Satan beleives that Jesus is the Son of God. You know the Bible, but you do not know the author. Works do not get you into heaven. It is only by the Grace of God that you can be with God. Oh I forgot, only a few select holy people can go to Heaven. My brothers on here IrishSteel, Haney1, Pat, Katzenjammer, BBrier, Cueball, and others that I have missed, and I will call down to you when we are sitting at the feet of the Lamb that was slain who is sitting on the Throne to see how you are doing. Just because you do not beleive in Hell does not mean there is not one. Ignorance is not bliss.

How about the answer to the question Hebrews 1:13, To which angel did God ever ask sit at my right hand? Jesus is not an angel. Another false doctrine of Russel.[/quote]
Hebrews 1:13 I just don’t understand why one would be so hung up on this scripture in regards to proving the Trinity when there are dozens of clear and direct scriptures such as the 4 that I used in my first post on this thread. It’s mind boggling.

I’m in no way dodging or ducking the question. I haven’t answer it yet because since I’m working it’s hard for me to complete a post in a timely manner and when I do complete a post and see more important questions about 1914 or blood transfusions I’d rather answer those questions instead of a question like this. The people who asked those question were sincerely asking them wanting to know why. You dmaddox aren’t looking for an answer and you’re not asking with an open mind. You think you can get me to contradict myself when I answer this question. You can not.

Jesus was a spirit being before he came to earth as a human. I keep saying this but I guess I’ll say it again. Yes Jesus is divine which means heavenly. He is from the heavens. Notice what Jesus himself said in regards to his pre-human existence at John 17:4,5(NIV):
“4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”

So where was he before he came to earth? In heaven with God. Should I quote it in another language? Should I try to find the Aramaic version and use that instead of plain english? That verse alone should be enough to show that when Jesus was in heaven HE WAS NOT GOD.

When Jesus was in heaven he was in the form of or the nature of God meaning he was a spirit being. What ever substance spirit beings are made of, both Jesus and God are made of that same substance. That’s why Philippians 2:5(NRSV) states that “although Jesus was in God’s form he did not regard equality with God something to be exploited.”

Can we put to rest the fact that yes Jesus was divine but that did not make him God Almighty.

The Bible makes it clear that he was in heaven before he came to earth. The Bible shows that he was Michael the archangel which means chief-angel. So he was the foremost angel in heaven. If you want me to show you scriptures about how Jesus was Michael in his pre-human existence. I’d be happy to do that. Even though he was the chief angel he still was not the right hand of God’s throne and power.

But once he went back to heaven and provided himself to God as the ransom sacrifice he was exulted to a superior position and became higher than anything else except God. Notice what Luke wrote at Acts 2:32-35(NIV):
"God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, " 'The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” ’

What Paul is doing in the book of Hebrews is providing scriptual proof that Jesus is the son of God(Hebrews 1,12), that he is over the angels(1:4-6,13), that he is greater than Abraham(7:1-6), greater than Moses(3:1-6) and the prophets(1:1,2).

The verse you keep referring to dmaddox is Hebrews 1:13 which states:
"13 To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”

In that verse Paul is providing scriptural references about the superiority and the exalted position that Jesus is now in. That statement about sitting at Gods right hand is first mentioned first at Psalms 110:1, Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36 and Luke 20:42.

So no dmaddox once Jesus went back to heaven he was at a higher position than he was before he went to earth and higher than that of an angel.

But what does that prove? If anything it proves that Jesus and God are not the same because he is at God’s right hand meaning they are two separate beings. Meaning he is second in position of authority but still subject to God. 1 Corinthians 15:20:24(NIV) explains this well:

“Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25[i] For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet[i/]. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

[/quote]

I am going to put this another way.

So Jesus was second in command before he became Human, and when he went back to heaven he was exalted to second in command? That is awesome logic.[/quote]
I’m sorry D. I did not explain this fully. I left out one important point. Let me see if this will help your understanding.

Jesus as the archangel was the highest ranking angel in heaven but he was not yet exalted to the position to the right hand of God’s power. As the chief angel he had no authority over earth. That’s because when Jesus was in heaven God was using kings like David to represent his rulership on earth. These kings of course were still in subjection to God which is why King Zedekiah was called a prince at Ezekiel 21:26,27 despite being a king. So Jesus in his pre-human existence had not yet been exalted and all things except God put under him. Once he died and was resurrected then he was given all authority in heaven and on earth. We see Jesus tell his disciple this at Matthew 28:18 (NIV):
"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

Philippians 2:9-11(NIV):
“Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

So before he came to earth he was the chief or the foremost angel but he was not yet exalted to the highest place possible which is at the right hand of God. Once he was exalted he became higher than an angel and everything in heaven except God and everything on earth was placed under him.

So again Paul at Hebrews 1:13 is saying that no angel has ever been told to sit at God’s right hand until God places his enemies as a stool for his feet. Once Jesus was exalted he was no longer at the rank of an angel. He was now higher than and angel and second in authority to God.

Is that clearer for you? And I’m still waiting for you to explain how my first post which is is clear and obvious is out of context or wrong as you said.[/quote]

So let me see if I get this right. Jesus was the Arch-Angel Michael. Then, came to Earth died for our sins, was resurrected, then got a promotion and is now not an angel? Did Jehovah recreate him then? You really might want to think about this a little more. Your logic is a little sketchy.[/quote]

I would like to add on to this. You state that Jesus does not take over rule in Heaven until 1914. So between the time of the ascention to heaven Jesus was still an angel, and was not exalted until 1914. So using your logic Jesus was still an angel during the writting of the book of Hebrews.

127

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]GCF wrote:
Trib,

what is your interest in the JW’s? Why have you expended so much time and energy investigating and studying them? What’s the motive?[/quote]
It wasn’t just them. I became proficient. quite so actually, in mormonism, eastern religions, the way international, the unification church, christian science, European redaction liberalism and to a somewhat lesser extent Islam. There were also several other smaller outfits like the theosophical society and swedenborgianism that I dipped into a bit.

My first passion as far as defending the faith was concerned was the word of faith movement which was everywhere back then, even in orthodox denominations, despite being a comprehensive collection of thoroughgoing metaphysical heresy. I have a bunch of tapes I did back then on them too. Of course I was still primarily hammering out my own personal theology too.

I had a personal library of over 2000 volumes and 800 tapes with roughly half of it being cultic crap and yes I spent ALOT of time studying.

Why? Because I felt I was called to do it. Defend the faith once for all delivered to the saints. I’ve wondered in recent years if maybe I still am, but most of my library was in storage at my mother’s house and was destroyed in a fire there several years ago. Something I’m pondering and praying about. [/quote]
Tribilus, I listened to your tapes and all they are saying is your personal opinions. They aren’t saying anything different than a lot of the other websites. Pushharder gave links to websites that say the same thing you’re saying so it’s nothing new. You sounded like you had some earth shattering recorded information from one of our meetings or conventions. Man you ain’t saying nothin! LOL! Wow, the lengths people will go to to try to discredit Jehovah’s Witnesses. They do that because our beliefs are solidly grounded in any translation of the Bible and when discussed we can show them from any translation what the Bible really teaches. Tiribulus you can spend all day trying to make a tape from 20 years ago available but you can’t spend what should be a couple of minutes if the scriptures I used in my first post are so wrong, using scripture to back your statements up or using scriptures to refute any points from my first post on this thread.

I bet Dmaddox is so upset because he was so gushy when Tiribulus wrote his first post and acted like he had some earth shatter information that would make Jehovah’s Witnesses look bad.

If you want the real information on 1914 and how that year was a significant date come on over to Interested in a Serious Religious Debate part 2 and I’d be happy to explain the truth regarding how and why 1914 was a significant year. Please don’t listen to some guy who’s motive are to counter what Jehovah’s Witnesses are teaching from the Bible. He is not presenting this information in a fair and unbiased way and from what I heard from his recordings he is twisting and distorting the truth.[/quote]

So his historical account of the facts, which is backed up at any local library and internet connection, is just his opinion and your opinion of the scriptures is fact. You really need to go back and relearn what fact and opinion mean.

I have only listened to the first half, and can not wait to listen to the 2nd half tonight. You are a confused little man mse2us. Your only understanding of the Bible is what the WatchTower spoon feeds you. Do not give us this crap that the JWs allow you to study all the other translations because that is BS and you know it. May God have mercy on your soul. Oh yeah, I forgot, you do not beleive in a soul. Well I guess for you ignorance is bliss, or just ignorance.

128

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]GCF wrote:
Trib,

what is your interest in the JW’s? Why have you expended so much time and energy investigating and studying them? What’s the motive?[/quote]
It wasn’t just them. I became proficient. quite so actually, in mormonism, eastern religions, the way international, the unification church, christian science, European redaction liberalism and to a somewhat lesser extent Islam. There were also several other smaller outfits like the theosophical society and swedenborgianism that I dipped into a bit.

My first passion as far as defending the faith was concerned was the word of faith movement which was everywhere back then, even in orthodox denominations, despite being a comprehensive collection of thoroughgoing metaphysical heresy. I have a bunch of tapes I did back then on them too. Of course I was still primarily hammering out my own personal theology too.

I had a personal library of over 2000 volumes and 800 tapes with roughly half of it being cultic crap and yes I spent ALOT of time studying.

Why? Because I felt I was called to do it. Defend the faith once for all delivered to the saints. I’ve wondered in recent years if maybe I still am, but most of my library was in storage at my mother’s house and was destroyed in a fire there several years ago. Something I’m pondering and praying about. [/quote]
Tribilus, I listened to your tapes and all they are saying is your personal opinions. They aren’t saying anything different than a lot of the other websites. Pushharder gave links to websites that say the same thing you’re saying so it’s nothing new. You sounded like you had some earth shattering recorded information from one of our meetings or conventions. Man you ain’t saying nothin! LOL! Wow, the lengths people will go to to try to discredit Jehovah’s Witnesses. They do that because our beliefs are solidly grounded in any translation of the Bible and when discussed we can show them from any translation what the Bible really teaches. Tiribulus you can spend all day trying to make a tape from 20 years ago available but you can’t spend what should be a couple of minutes if the scriptures I used in my first post are so wrong, using scripture to back your statements up or using scriptures to refute any points from my first post on this thread.

I bet Dmaddox is so upset because he was so gushy when Tiribulus wrote his first post and acted like he had some earth shatter information that would make Jehovah’s Witnesses look bad.

If you want the real information on 1914 and how that year was a significant date come on over to Interested in a Serious Religious Debate part 2 and I’d be happy to explain the truth regarding how and why 1914 was a significant year. Please don’t listen to some guy who’s motive are to counter what Jehovah’s Witnesses are teaching from the Bible. He is not presenting this information in a fair and unbiased way and from what I heard from his recordings he is twisting and distorting the truth.[/quote]

So his historical account of the facts, which is backed up at any local library and internet connection, is just his opinion and your opinion of the scriptures is fact. You really need to go back and relearn what fact and opinion mean.

I have only listened to the first half, and can not wait to listen to the 2nd half tonight. You are a confused little man mse2us. Your only understanding of the Bible is what the WatchTower spoon feeds you. Do not give us this crap that the JWs allow you to study all the other translations because that is BS and you know it. May God have mercy on your soul. Oh yeah, I forgot, you do not beleive in a soul. Well I guess for you ignorance is bliss, or just ignorance.[/quote]

As far as I know the JWs do believe in a soul - it is synonymous with the breath of life and ceases to exist after death.

129

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Jesus as the archangel was the highest ranking angel in heaven but he was not yet exalted to the position to the right hand of God’s power. As the chief angel he had no authority over earth. That’s because when Jesus was in heaven God was using kings like David to represent his rulership on earth. These kings of course were still in subjection to God which is why King Zedekiah was called a prince at Ezekiel 21:26,27 despite being a king. So Jesus in his pre-human existence had not yet been exalted and all things except God put under him. Once he died and was resurrected then he was given all authority in heaven and on earth. We see Jesus tell his disciple this at Matthew 28:18 (NIV):
"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

[/quote]

I thought Satan has authority over the earth?
[/quote]
God did not give Satan authority over the earth. He has allowed Satan to existence because Satan challenged God’s sovereignty when he implied to Eve that God was being unfair when he restricted both her and Adam from eating from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. Satan later in the book of Job said implied that he could corrupt all humans given the chance. So this called all humans integrity to God. So he has allowed Satan to have a strong influence on the world to see who is going to submit to Gods rule by follow his commandments as stated in his word the Bible and who will allow Satan to influence them and not submit to God’s rule. Those issues are currently being settled now.[/quote]

(KJV)2 cor 4:4 “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”
While this translation is saying that Satan is the god of this world, I took a look at the online interlinear translation. http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/2co4.pdf

Interestingly, “eon” is used instead of “world.” So I guess this scripture isn’t exactly saying that Satan has authority over the world, but instead a period of time.

(KJV) Matt 4 “8. Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9. And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.”
I thought Satan was offering Jesus the world but it appears he is just offering him the “kingdoms of the world,” which isn’t exactly the same thing.

So I apologize mse2us, I should have done my own research first.

130

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

So let me see if I get this right. Jesus was the Arch-Angel Michael. Then, came to Earth died for our sins, was resurrected, then got a promotion and is now not an angel? Did Jehovah recreate him then? You really might want to think about this a little more. Your logic is a little sketchy.[/quote]

And further, explain this verse I’ve posted at least three times now.

Hebrews 1:5

“For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”

Please show me where in the Bible God calls Michael his son. And it needs to be clear that it’s referring to Michael.

131

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Tribilus, I listened to your tapes and all they are saying is your personal opinions. They aren’t saying anything different than a lot of the other websites. Pushharder gave links to websites that say the same thing you’re saying so it’s nothing new. You sounded like you had some earth shattering recorded information from one of our meetings or conventions. Man you ain’t saying nothin! LOL! Wow, the lengths people will go to to try to discredit Jehovah’s Witnesses. They do that because our beliefs are solidly grounded in any translation of the Bible and when discussed we can show them from any translation what the Bible really teaches. Tiribulus you can spend all day trying to make a tape from 20 years ago available but you can’t spend what should be a couple of minutes if the scriptures I used in my first post are so wrong, using scripture to back your statements up or using scriptures to refute any points from my first post on this thread.

I bet Dmaddox is so upset because he was so gushy when Tiribulus wrote his first post and acted like he had some earth shatter information that would make Jehovah’s Witnesses look bad.

If you want the real information on 1914 and how that year was a significant date come on over to Interested in a Serious Religious Debate part 2 and I’d be happy to explain the truth regarding how and why 1914 was a significant year. Please don’t listen to some guy who’s motive are to counter what Jehovah’s Witnesses are teaching from the Bible. He is not presenting this information in a fair and unbiased way and from what I heard from his recordings he is twisting and distorting the truth.[/quote]
OK, but I’m going to be so presumptuous as to say that I’m betting most people won’t see it this way. In case you missed it I said this was 22 years ago and I was reading from sources that were very old even then so “new” was not something I ever claimed. Right on cue. Mountains of documentation from their own materials and it’s all my opinion. If you actually did listen to it I will give you sincere credit for at least that. It’s more than I’ve ever gotten from any other JW. Oh yeah, just in case it isn’t obvious, the bolded emphasis is mine. That’ll keep em away fer sher. Here’s a revolutionary idea. How bout if they hear you AND me, in no particular order? You folks are really tragic man. I absolutely do not mean that sarcastically. I really don’t.[/quote]
See this is the problem with getting books about Jehovah’s Witnesses from the late 1800 and early 1900’s. The religion was in it’s infancy as a religion and as time went on and they got a better understanding of the Bible believes changed and were readjusted. There’s a scripture at Proverbs 4:18 that says “the path of the righteous one is like the bright light that gets brighter and brighter until the day is firmly established.”
That’s exactly what happened. Charles Russell did not have the truth most of his life. Even when he died he did not have a full understanding of Bible truth. But what separated him from the religious leaders of that time is that he sincerely and humbly searched for the truth because he realized that he did not have it. When one takes that attitude God will work with that person to help that one find the truth. So he and other sincere people began studying the Bible and they were called Bible Students. Again, humbly realizing that as students they did not have all the answers and they were learning. This learning process went on for decades and as they further examined the Bible false beliefs started to fall away such as the Hellfire doctrine, using the cross and images in thier worship to God, the immortality of the soul, belief that the pyramid of Giza was built under inspiration by God. the bright light certainly got brighter and brighter and by the 1930’s those beliefs and other wrong beliefs had fallen away. Jehovah’s witness today are completey aware of the beliefs in the past and we understand that because of wrong beliefs prior to taking a sincere effort to find the truth these false beliefs were held onto until they one were exposed to be false. All of the information Tiribulus is referencing is from our early beliefs which had a mixture of the Bible truth and falsehoods. So forming an opinion based on the Bible Students in their infancy when they did not have a full understanding is the absolute wrong thing to do.

For example, people realize that science has come a long way in the past 100 years and early on most scientist were wrong in their thinking and understanding in the various scientific field. But as time went by and they got a better understanding they adjusted their thinking and dropped the wrong idea’s when they realized they were wrong and science rapidly advanced to the point we are now. Now would it be wise to look at the early work of scientist in the various scientific fields, see that some of their understanding, methods and reasoning were wrong and then form an opinion based on scientist early work. And then not believe anything that science has produced over the years. And then point out the wrong thinking of the scientist as proof to why science today should not be trusted? Of course not. We all realize that modern science in it’s infancy was wrong a lot of times but as time went by and as the understanding of these scientist increased they made rapid advancement to the point we are now.
That analogy can be applied to us. Early on due to prior beliefs of Bible Students not all of their beliefs were inline with the Bible and due to that there weren’t many Bible students around the world. But as those false beliefs started to disappear by the 1940’s and 1950’s our membership rapidly grew by the millions to the point we are today.

My point is that don’t make the mistake of forming an opinion based on someone pointing out our history from almost 100 years ago. The false beliefs such as Hellfire, Pyramid of Giza and fixing a date for Armageddon has long since been abandoned. Base them on our beliefs today.

132

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

So let me see if I get this right. Jesus was the Arch-Angel Michael. Then, came to Earth died for our sins, was resurrected, then got a promotion and is now not an angel? Did Jehovah recreate him then? You really might want to think about this a little more. Your logic is a little sketchy.[/quote]

And further, explain this verse I’ve posted at least three times now.

Hebrews 1:5

“For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”

Please show me where in the Bible God calls Michael his son. And it needs to be clear that it’s referring to Michael.[/quote]

Well, in the JWs defense, the basic story is a little illogical as well:

God sacrificed Himself to Himself so that He could correct a mistake He made Himself.

133

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Jesus as the archangel was the highest ranking angel in heaven but he was not yet exalted to the position to the right hand of God’s power. As the chief angel he had no authority over earth. That’s because when Jesus was in heaven God was using kings like David to represent his rulership on earth. These kings of course were still in subjection to God which is why King Zedekiah was called a prince at Ezekiel 21:26,27 despite being a king. So Jesus in his pre-human existence had not yet been exalted and all things except God put under him. Once he died and was resurrected then he was given all authority in heaven and on earth. We see Jesus tell his disciple this at Matthew 28:18 (NIV):
"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

[/quote]

I thought Satan has authority over the earth?
[/quote]
God did not give Satan authority over the earth. He has allowed Satan to existence because Satan challenged God’s sovereignty when he implied to Eve that God was being unfair when he restricted both her and Adam from eating from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. Satan later in the book of Job said implied that he could corrupt all humans given the chance. So this called all humans integrity to God. So he has allowed Satan to have a strong influence on the world to see who is going to submit to Gods rule by follow his commandments as stated in his word the Bible and who will allow Satan to influence them and not submit to God’s rule. Those issues are currently being settled now.[/quote]

This is not what you were saying earlier. You told us that when Jesus was tempted by Satan he had all authority over the Earth to give those things to Jesus. Now you are saying he doesn’t. I stated that Satan was lieing, and you stated that he was not lieing, that he had authority to give the kingdoms of Earth to Jesus.

So who is lieing now?[/quote]
No D. God was and still is the Sovereign Lord of everything. What you don’t understand is that Satan has been allowed to influence the kingdoms of the world to the point that they are like puppets to a puppeteer. God has temporarily allowed Satan to have this type of influence over the earth so much so that all of the governments are under his power. That is why Jesus called him the Ruler of the World at John 14:30 and Paul called him the God of this system of things at 2 Corinthians 4:4. Even demons exercise ruling power. They are referred to as “the world rulers of this darkness” at Ephesians 6:12 and have exercised authority over the world powers of history, such as the invisible ‘princes’ over Persia and Greece mentioned at Daniel 10:13,20. So no D. I’m not lying. God has allowed Satan to control the humans governments over the earth but he did not give Satan the authority over the entire earth like he gave his kings in Israel authority over his people in Israel and like he gave Jesus authority in heaven and earth. There’s a difference.

134

So we’ve gone from “it’s all his malicious, twisted, distorted opinions” to “alright, that really is what was taught back then, but it doesn’t count”?

Congratulations, that’s a step in the right direction.

I’ll leave it to others to either buy or not the standard hackneyed Proverbs 4:18 explanation for the wildly drifting sands of the watchtower foundation which I’ve heard one thousand times as well the wholly invalid science analogy.

135

mse2us - please don’t take this the wrong way. The point of exploring/explaining the history of the JW’s is to highlight several important facts - The JW’s started as an system of beliefs opposed to historical Christian teaching as demonstrated by the opposition to the Deity of Christ which causes the opposition to the trinity, to salvation by grace, and and host of other doctrines. This divorce from plain, historical Christian doctrine resulted in the “trail of errors” of the JW church.

This trail of errors has been repeatedly corrected and updated over the last 100 years, but it is precisely this constant calibration of beliefs that highlights for those of us on the outside just how twisted the belief structure of the JW has been and continues to be.

please understand, none of us doubt the sincerity and honesty of the average JW. I admire the intensity and study you have obviously put into understanding your faith. We are merely outside observers looking in at your experience and making observations.

But you also have to understand that we see JW as a corruption of the Christian faith, not a correction or improvement. The lineage of Doctrine we hold in our Christian faith goes back to Christ himself. We take the revealed truth literally and do not rely on a “updated” translation, but on the actual primary historical documents themselves - the plain teaching that we can discover for ourselves, not the “calibrated” teachings of men.

I hope that this does not sound harsh or judgemental - if so, I humbly apologize - I merely mean to express my thoughts in kindness.

136

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
JWs action plan to debate.

Christian asks question to JW.
JW answers with a question that has nothing to do with the original question.
Christian restates Question asked to JW.
JW asks their question again saying it deals with context.
Christian answeres JW question.
JW then asks another question, but now refuses to answer the original question because it does not matter any more.
Christian asks the original question yet again.
JW asks another question.
Christian confronts the JW with the truth.
JW then calls Christian some name and attacks them personally.
JW states that only they know the true meaning of the Bible reguardless of whether the information provided to them is incorrect from a false prophet. JW admits that Russell had some flaws in his teachings, but they really know the truth now. They had to learn from their mistakes, but now they got it right. Russell believed that the Pyramid at Giza was just as Holy as the Temple in Jerusalem.

You think I got it?

I forgot one. Take every piece of scripture out of context and spin it so it meets their understanding/translation/interpretation, because they know the real truth, better than the people that actually lived and spoke with Christ.

mse2us and Honest_Lifter we have shown you guys over and over that you are wrong, but you just do not get it. I have stated this before and I will state it again. Your beleifs do not make you any different than Satan. Satan beleives that Jesus is the Son of God. You know the Bible, but you do not know the author. Works do not get you into heaven. It is only by the Grace of God that you can be with God. Oh I forgot, only a few select holy people can go to Heaven. My brothers on here IrishSteel, Haney1, Pat, Katzenjammer, BBrier, Cueball, and others that I have missed, and I will call down to you when we are sitting at the feet of the Lamb that was slain who is sitting on the Throne to see how you are doing. Just because you do not beleive in Hell does not mean there is not one. Ignorance is not bliss.

How about the answer to the question Hebrews 1:13, To which angel did God ever ask sit at my right hand? Jesus is not an angel. Another false doctrine of Russel.[/quote]
Hebrews 1:13 I just don’t understand why one would be so hung up on this scripture in regards to proving the Trinity when there are dozens of clear and direct scriptures such as the 4 that I used in my first post on this thread. It’s mind boggling.

I’m in no way dodging or ducking the question. I haven’t answer it yet because since I’m working it’s hard for me to complete a post in a timely manner and when I do complete a post and see more important questions about 1914 or blood transfusions I’d rather answer those questions instead of a question like this. The people who asked those question were sincerely asking them wanting to know why. You dmaddox aren’t looking for an answer and you’re not asking with an open mind. You think you can get me to contradict myself when I answer this question. You can not.

Jesus was a spirit being before he came to earth as a human. I keep saying this but I guess I’ll say it again. Yes Jesus is divine which means heavenly. He is from the heavens. Notice what Jesus himself said in regards to his pre-human existence at John 17:4,5(NIV):
“4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”

So where was he before he came to earth? In heaven with God. Should I quote it in another language? Should I try to find the Aramaic version and use that instead of plain english? That verse alone should be enough to show that when Jesus was in heaven HE WAS NOT GOD.

When Jesus was in heaven he was in the form of or the nature of God meaning he was a spirit being. What ever substance spirit beings are made of, both Jesus and God are made of that same substance. That’s why Philippians 2:5(NRSV) states that “although Jesus was in God’s form he did not regard equality with God something to be exploited.”

Can we put to rest the fact that yes Jesus was divine but that did not make him God Almighty.

The Bible makes it clear that he was in heaven before he came to earth. The Bible shows that he was Michael the archangel which means chief-angel. So he was the foremost angel in heaven. If you want me to show you scriptures about how Jesus was Michael in his pre-human existence. I’d be happy to do that. Even though he was the chief angel he still was not the right hand of God’s throne and power.

But once he went back to heaven and provided himself to God as the ransom sacrifice he was exulted to a superior position and became higher than anything else except God. Notice what Luke wrote at Acts 2:32-35(NIV):
"God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, " 'The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” ’

What Paul is doing in the book of Hebrews is providing scriptual proof that Jesus is the son of God(Hebrews 1,12), that he is over the angels(1:4-6,13), that he is greater than Abraham(7:1-6), greater than Moses(3:1-6) and the prophets(1:1,2).

The verse you keep referring to dmaddox is Hebrews 1:13 which states:
"13 To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”

In that verse Paul is providing scriptural references about the superiority and the exalted position that Jesus is now in. That statement about sitting at Gods right hand is first mentioned first at Psalms 110:1, Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36 and Luke 20:42.

So no dmaddox once Jesus went back to heaven he was at a higher position than he was before he went to earth and higher than that of an angel.

But what does that prove? If anything it proves that Jesus and God are not the same because he is at God’s right hand meaning they are two separate beings. Meaning he is second in position of authority but still subject to God. 1 Corinthians 15:20:24(NIV) explains this well:

"Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25[i] For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

[/quote]

Paul didn’t write Hebrews, the author is actually unknown.

Let’s switch gears a bit. We can throw passages back and forth ad nauseum, because the Bible is a big book.
My question is this, on what authority did JW’s dismantle the trinity, for which there is scriptural evidence and beyond for?
As scriptural literalists, how do you discern the angelic property of Jesus for which there is no scriptural reference for?
On what authority do you ‘demote’ Jesus to less than God and how all the sudden, after 17 centuries did you decide this is no longer true yet you apply other properties to Jesus which have no literal scriptural evidence?
Lastly, I want the exact scripture reference that proves Satan was thrown out of heaven onto the Earth in 1914…I am pretty sure those exact words are not in the Bible any where…

137

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
JWs action plan to debate.

Christian asks question to JW.
JW answers with a question that has nothing to do with the original question.
Christian restates Question asked to JW.
JW asks their question again saying it deals with context.
Christian answeres JW question.
JW then asks another question, but now refuses to answer the original question because it does not matter any more.
Christian asks the original question yet again.
JW asks another question.
Christian confronts the JW with the truth.
JW then calls Christian some name and attacks them personally.
JW states that only they know the true meaning of the Bible reguardless of whether the information provided to them is incorrect from a false prophet. JW admits that Russell had some flaws in his teachings, but they really know the truth now. They had to learn from their mistakes, but now they got it right. Russell believed that the Pyramid at Giza was just as Holy as the Temple in Jerusalem.

You think I got it?

I forgot one. Take every piece of scripture out of context and spin it so it meets their understanding/translation/interpretation, because they know the real truth, better than the people that actually lived and spoke with Christ.

mse2us and Honest_Lifter we have shown you guys over and over that you are wrong, but you just do not get it. I have stated this before and I will state it again. Your beleifs do not make you any different than Satan. Satan beleives that Jesus is the Son of God. You know the Bible, but you do not know the author. Works do not get you into heaven. It is only by the Grace of God that you can be with God. Oh I forgot, only a few select holy people can go to Heaven. My brothers on here IrishSteel, Haney1, Pat, Katzenjammer, BBrier, Cueball, and others that I have missed, and I will call down to you when we are sitting at the feet of the Lamb that was slain who is sitting on the Throne to see how you are doing. Just because you do not beleive in Hell does not mean there is not one. Ignorance is not bliss.

How about the answer to the question Hebrews 1:13, To which angel did God ever ask sit at my right hand? Jesus is not an angel. Another false doctrine of Russel.[/quote]
Hebrews 1:13 I just don’t understand why one would be so hung up on this scripture in regards to proving the Trinity when there are dozens of clear and direct scriptures such as the 4 that I used in my first post on this thread. It’s mind boggling.

I’m in no way dodging or ducking the question. I haven’t answer it yet because since I’m working it’s hard for me to complete a post in a timely manner and when I do complete a post and see more important questions about 1914 or blood transfusions I’d rather answer those questions instead of a question like this. The people who asked those question were sincerely asking them wanting to know why. You dmaddox aren’t looking for an answer and you’re not asking with an open mind. You think you can get me to contradict myself when I answer this question. You can not.

Jesus was a spirit being before he came to earth as a human. I keep saying this but I guess I’ll say it again. Yes Jesus is divine which means heavenly. He is from the heavens. Notice what Jesus himself said in regards to his pre-human existence at John 17:4,5(NIV):
“4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”

So where was he before he came to earth? In heaven with God. Should I quote it in another language? Should I try to find the Aramaic version and use that instead of plain english? That verse alone should be enough to show that when Jesus was in heaven HE WAS NOT GOD.

When Jesus was in heaven he was in the form of or the nature of God meaning he was a spirit being. What ever substance spirit beings are made of, both Jesus and God are made of that same substance. That’s why Philippians 2:5(NRSV) states that “although Jesus was in God’s form he did not regard equality with God something to be exploited.”

Can we put to rest the fact that yes Jesus was divine but that did not make him God Almighty.

The Bible makes it clear that he was in heaven before he came to earth. The Bible shows that he was Michael the archangel which means chief-angel. So he was the foremost angel in heaven. If you want me to show you scriptures about how Jesus was Michael in his pre-human existence. I’d be happy to do that. Even though he was the chief angel he still was not the right hand of God’s throne and power.

But once he went back to heaven and provided himself to God as the ransom sacrifice he was exulted to a superior position and became higher than anything else except God. Notice what Luke wrote at Acts 2:32-35(NIV):
"God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, " 'The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” ’

What Paul is doing in the book of Hebrews is providing scriptual proof that Jesus is the son of God(Hebrews 1,12), that he is over the angels(1:4-6,13), that he is greater than Abraham(7:1-6), greater than Moses(3:1-6) and the prophets(1:1,2).

The verse you keep referring to dmaddox is Hebrews 1:13 which states:
"13 To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”

In that verse Paul is providing scriptural references about the superiority and the exalted position that Jesus is now in. That statement about sitting at Gods right hand is first mentioned first at Psalms 110:1, Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36 and Luke 20:42.

So no dmaddox once Jesus went back to heaven he was at a higher position than he was before he went to earth and higher than that of an angel.

But what does that prove? If anything it proves that Jesus and God are not the same because he is at God’s right hand meaning they are two separate beings. Meaning he is second in position of authority but still subject to God. 1 Corinthians 15:20:24(NIV) explains this well:

"Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25[i] For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

[/quote]

Paul didn’t write Hebrews, the author is actually unknown.

Let’s switch gears a bit. We can throw passages back and forth ad nauseum, because the Bible is a big book.
My question is this, on what authority did JW’s dismantle the trinity, for which there is scriptural evidence and beyond for?
As scriptural literalists, how do you discern the angelic property of Jesus for which there is no scriptural reference for?
On what authority do you ‘demote’ Jesus to less than God and how all the sudden, after 17 centuries did you decide this is no longer true yet you apply other properties to Jesus which have no literal scriptural evidence?
Lastly, I want the exact scripture reference that proves Satan was thrown out of heaven onto the Earth in 1914…I am pretty sure those exact words are not in the Bible any where…[/quote]

From what I understand, the 1914 date was simply calculated by interpreters, but is not specifically mentioned in the Bible.

138

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
<<< We are merely outside observers looking in at your experience and making observations. >>>[/quote]
Having no experience with or concept of the necessity of the supernatural act of being brought from REALLY dead to REALLY alive by the sin conquering power of the authentic risen Christ, these folks operate under the assumption that if only shown a sufficiently strong logically defensible presentation of their religion, people will believe it.

To them sin is essentially a corruption of the intellect, not actual. essential, substantive death to the kingdom of God into which everyone is conceived. At least that’s how it plays out in practice. The idea of being a walking spiritual corpse until actually resurrected (born again) is entirely foreign to their way of thinking, hence the incessant focus on argumentation and hence my resistance to accommodate.

They cannot fit it between their ears that a person can fully understand EVERYTHING they are about, and then some, and continue to deny that it’s the truth without it being a satanic attack on their poor victimized religion. They’re taught to expect this.

The whole of Biblical and church history, along with an entire universe of scholarship, much of which has no particular interest in reaching one conclusion over another, declares their organization and belief system an undiluted falsehood, but that doesn’t matter. They are all confused and only the Watchtower and Bible and Tract Society has the truth. Well, since 1930 anyway.

To them this is just as it should be. That is one very powerful and Biblically foretold deception which will only be broken by the true supernatural Gospel, conceived by the Father, Accomplished by the Son and applied by the Holy Spirit.

139

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< I want the exact scripture reference that proves Satan was thrown out of heaven onto the Earth in 1914…I am pretty sure those exact words are not in the Bible any where…[/quote]
Neither is the word “Trinity” =]

140

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

So let me see if I get this right. Jesus was the Arch-Angel Michael. Then, came to Earth died for our sins, was resurrected, then got a promotion and is now not an angel? Did Jehovah recreate him then? You really might want to think about this a little more. Your logic is a little sketchy.[/quote]

And further, explain this verse I’ve posted at least three times now.

Hebrews 1:5

“For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”

Please show me where in the Bible God calls Michael his son. And it needs to be clear that it’s referring to Michael.[/quote]

Well, in the JWs defense, the basic story is a little illogical as well:

God sacrificed Himself to Himself so that He could correct a mistake He made Himself.[/quote]
You are exactly right BIA. It doesn’t make sense. When one is taught the trinity doctrine he is taught to accept the fact that the doctrine is beyond human’s understanding to fully grasp. They are taught to believe it even though it doesn’t make sense to humans but since God is higher than humans the trinity teaching is higher than humans as well.

They’d rather hold onto a teaching that doesn’t make sense even though there are clear scriptures such as the following at 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (NIV):
“24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.”

You cannot get any clearer than that passage.