Trinity - Bible Teaching or Doctrine of Man

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
A very long post which I did read.[/quote]
I see nothing has changed. Listen friend, you will teach me exactly NOTHING about watchtower views on anything. I promise you. The trap of endless and meaningless debate is a watchtower ploy from time immemorial. Your organization was founded on falsehood, grew on and in falsehood and proceeds to this day the same. That doesn’t mean I hate you or even that I have a poor opinion of you generally as a person. BUT, you are deceived. I have been through this more times than I can count with people much more qualified than yourself to defend the watchtower position.

I invite you to listen to my expose’ on watchtower history when it’s ready. You won’t because that would be exposing yourself to apostate materials and you could be disciplined for doing so. I have read hundreds of Watchtower and Awake magazines long with dozens of watchtower books you’re probably never even heard of.

Russel was not a “Bible Student”. He was a goofy false prophet who, aside from having no sound knowledge of the Bible also claimed Divine authority for the specific prediction of future events that failed to occur as promised. The watchtower has done this several times since, the last I know of being 1975 the lead up to which prompted many members to sell all their belongings and give to the “kingdom”. I personally knew one such man from California who left the watchtower over it. That is not a “mistake” that is false prophecy and a tell tale measure of a deceiver.

See, in light of the Gospel I believe in, the true one, wherein I am saved by grace through faith having been brought from true death to true life by the eternal choice of the eternal God through no merit of my own, I am not allowed to look upon people like you with disdain or self righteous condemnation. Having once been dead to God myself and having been resurrected from that death as I sat on a couch in a black man’s apartment in Phoenix Arizona in 1984 I am in no position to view anybody as beneath me.

I like to argue. I am very good at it, but in the end argument does not save men’s souls. As I sat declaring all my qualifications for heaven, if there was one, Bobby just blankly looked at me smoking his pipe. He was an uneducated, not very well spoken former street hustler 20 years my senior, scarred, missing teeth and black as the ace of spades. At that time the very last person on Earth one would think God would use to reach an arrogant self confident 20 year old white kid like me.

He did not argue with me. He bent forward, looked me right in the eye and told me “Son, you are a sinner just like me. Guilty before the throne of holy and just God. You will be sentenced to eternal death and damnation if you continue on this path of rebellion”

I was stunned and sat there for a minute my mouth hanging open, but what I now recognize as the not only holy and just, but also loving and merciful spirit of the living God told me to the depths of my being that he was right. I was already being made alive with Christ in heavenly places. I sheepishly asked him “what do I do?” He said “confess to Him that without the saving blood and resurrected life of Jesus Christ you are as a child of the first Adam born in sin and worthy of the full wrath of his justice and ask him to save you”.

I almost laughed, “that’s it?” “That’s it” he said. “He will honor the eternal covenant made with his eternal Son and make you a brother of Christ of which he himself is the firstborn by giving you his very life in the promise of the Holy Spirit dwelling in your heart”.

I did and so did he. It’s been a rocky road at times and despite my backsliding for a while, even in the depths of drunken despair when I begged him to just leave me alone I knew he was there and he never took his loving hand off my life. For the past 4 plus years my faith has been greatly renewed. Through the crushing pressure of being unemployed and trying to provide for my family. “Whom the Lord loves he disciplines and he chastens every son whom he receives”.

You can argue with yourself my friend.
[/quote]
Black as the ace of spades…okay?

I appreciate your honesty and experience. But nothing that you said above can refute any of the scriptures I used in any of my post because all are solidly grounded in the Bible. None of my post are based on a theological point of view. They are all bible based. I’m not sure what experience you had with Jehovah’s Witnesses in the past so I can’t comment on why you are so adamently against Jehovah’s Witness. But like I said we are not a perfect organization and the people in the organization are not perfect. I know of individuals in our congregations who’ve made mistakes and really hurt other members in the congregation. And when I hear of these experiences all I can do is shake my head and wonder what that person was thinking. When I look back and see the several times our organization fixed dates for Armageddon(the last date was 1925 not 75) even though it’s clear in the Bible that not even Jesus knows when this is going to happened all I can do is shake my head and wonder what they were thinging back then. Despite the mistakes we have made I know that we are the only religion dispensing this type of information based on any translation of the Bible. We are the only ones who have identified when the last days started and when Jesus was made king in heaven. We are the only ones who can show you from the Bible that Jesus’ parousia or presence most often translated as coming is invisible and will cover a period of time termed the “conclusion of the system of things.” We are the only one actively warning people that we are deep in the last days and that it is essential to learn what the Bible really teaches to survive Armageddon. So because of this when our organization or individuals in our organization make mistakes it doesn’t shake my faith. I look at how men of faith like Moses made a mistake and was not allowed to enter into the promise land and I realize that this is the truth but do to man’s imperfection mistake happens from time to time.

It’s nice that we had this exchange and I wish you well. But if you attack my religion I will defend it with the Bible.

102

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Back in Action, now you are thinking logically! Not only that, but earlier in the day, He also prayed for not his will but His fathers to take place.

2 points for contradiction:

  1. He prayed to His Father, so that would indicate individuality.

  2. He prayed that His Father’s will take place, not his own.[/quote]

  3. No contradiction in the two personifications of the divine communicating between themselves. Individuality pesonified, but still of one Divine essence.

  4. Same as the first . . .

still not sure what part of 1 Divine Essence - Three Divine Personifications you’re missing.

[b][i]The Biblical facts are these:
There is only One God.
The Father is God, the Son is God and the HS is God.

Which leads to this conclusion:
If the Father, the Son and the HS are God and there is only One God, then the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One God.[/b][/i]

By what power or method this is accomplished remains beyond our comprehension just as God’s ability to exist outside of time remains beyond our comprehension, just as God’s ability to be omnipresent remains beyond our comprehension, just as God’s ability to be omniscient remains beyond our comprehension . . .

My best analogy (still weak though) is a ecto-plasmic blob being who can split off portions of himself into mini-blobs. These mini-blobs have a mind and will of their own and all his attributes as a blob, but they can act independently. They can communicate with each other and he reabsorb those mini-blobs at will. One essence - multiple personifications. My mind can comprehend the idea - but not the power to accomplish it.

You guys are tripping up over the methodolgy by which God accomplishes this, when in reality, we don’t understand how God accomplishes any of his attributes, that power is beyond our comprehension - we simply accept what He has revealed of Himself. the Marriage of faith and reason[/quote]

Can you please offer scriptural support for the bolded portion so that I can do some research.
[/quote]

OK - well, you do agree there is One God, right? so that ones the easy one.

Obviously God the father is God, right? so that one is easy as well.

I already gave you the passages on Jesus’ Divinity - 5 whole points and scriptures to back them up - start there, then we can get to the HS once you’ve come to terms with Christ as God.

Ok?

103

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
We are told to take in knowledge of God and His Son Jesus Christ. - John 17:3

2 questions: (I am asking all this because that is what this thread is dedicated to)

  1. Why doesn’t it mention taking in knowledge of only God, if Jesus is God?
  2. Why isn’t the Holy Spirit mentioned as something that we need to take in knowledge about?

Bonus Question:

How can we take in knowledge of something that human minds can’t grasp?[/quote]

  1. The passage states: “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” - no problem with us knowing two of the personifications of the Divine. Not sure what you are missing here?

  2. Because the Holy Spirit was going to be sent to dwell in us and guide us into all truth - we would if we knew the Father and the Son naturally come to know the Holy Spirit as part of his ministry to us - if His praye rof John 17 was answered and we became a believer then his promise of John 14:26 will comes to pass. We don’t need to take in knowledge of the HS, because the HS will provide knowledge to us."

Bonues Answer - we cannot comprehend all, but that does not mean we cannot comprehend some.[/quote]
Oh no another trinity thread!

[/quote]

mse2us - you will have to counter my post before I will even begin to respond to your passages listed here. My passages and points are clear and unequivocal. What is your response to my points? Then we can get to yours. Let’s actually discuss this and not just throw walls of text at each other . . .[/quote]
I have to answer the Hebrews question dmaddox is so anxious to have answered first and someone else has a question about Daniel’s prophecy in the other thread. But I appreciate you asking me the way you did.

Are you talking about the two points you listed above or are they in another post?

104

[quote]mse2us wrote:

I have to answer the Hebrews question dmaddox is so anxious to have answered first and someone else has a question about Daniel’s prophecy in the other thread. But I appreciate you asking me the way you did.

Are you talking about the two points you listed above or are they in another post?[/quote]

I understand - it’s easy to get twisted around with all of the threads we have going.

No, I was referring to my five points about Jesus’s divinity -the starting point for any discussion of the Trinity.

105

[quote]mse2us wrote:
<<< It’s nice that we had this exchange and I wish you well. But if you attack my religion I will defend it with the Bible.[/quote]
Ohhhh, I’d be disappointed with anything less. Let’s try this. I give my solemn word I have read more Watchtower material than you probably have and have spent countless hours talking with jehovah’s witnesses, some quite high ranking which means I’ve heard your side. I mean REALLY heard it.

Does this mean you will download and listen to my tape when I get it done? All taken from original sources? I, and I’m sure some others, would be very interested in your take on what is the undeniable foundation of The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

106

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
JWs action plan to debate.

Christian asks question to JW.
JW answers with a question that has nothing to do with the original question.
Christian restates Question asked to JW.
JW asks their question again saying it deals with context.
Christian answeres JW question.
JW then asks another question, but now refuses to answer the original question because it does not matter any more.
Christian asks the original question yet again.
JW asks another question.
Christian confronts the JW with the truth.
JW then calls Christian some name and attacks them personally.
JW states that only they know the true meaning of the Bible reguardless of whether the information provided to them is incorrect from a false prophet. JW admits that Russell had some flaws in his teachings, but they really know the truth now. They had to learn from their mistakes, but now they got it right. Russell believed that the Pyramid at Giza was just as Holy as the Temple in Jerusalem.

You think I got it?

I forgot one. Take every piece of scripture out of context and spin it so it meets their understanding/translation/interpretation, because they know the real truth, better than the people that actually lived and spoke with Christ.

mse2us and Honest_Lifter we have shown you guys over and over that you are wrong, but you just do not get it. I have stated this before and I will state it again. Your beleifs do not make you any different than Satan. Satan beleives that Jesus is the Son of God. You know the Bible, but you do not know the author. Works do not get you into heaven. It is only by the Grace of God that you can be with God. Oh I forgot, only a few select holy people can go to Heaven. My brothers on here IrishSteel, Haney1, Pat, Katzenjammer, BBrier, Cueball, and others that I have missed, and I will call down to you when we are sitting at the feet of the Lamb that was slain who is sitting on the Throne to see how you are doing. Just because you do not beleive in Hell does not mean there is not one. Ignorance is not bliss.

How about the answer to the question Hebrews 1:13, To which angel did God ever ask sit at my right hand? Jesus is not an angel. Another false doctrine of Russel.[/quote]
Hebrews 1:13 I just don’t understand why one would be so hung up on this scripture in regards to proving the Trinity when there are dozens of clear and direct scriptures such as the 4 that I used in my first post on this thread. It’s mind boggling.

I’m in no way dodging or ducking the question. I haven’t answer it yet because since I’m working it’s hard for me to complete a post in a timely manner and when I do complete a post and see more important questions about 1914 or blood transfusions I’d rather answer those questions instead of a question like this. The people who asked those question were sincerely asking them wanting to know why. You dmaddox aren’t looking for an answer and you’re not asking with an open mind. You think you can get me to contradict myself when I answer this question. You can not.

Jesus was a spirit being before he came to earth as a human. I keep saying this but I guess I’ll say it again. Yes Jesus is divine which means heavenly. He is from the heavens. Notice what Jesus himself said in regards to his pre-human existence at John 17:4,5(NIV):
“4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”

So where was he before he came to earth? In heaven with God. Should I quote it in another language? Should I try to find the Aramaic version and use that instead of plain english? That verse alone should be enough to show that when Jesus was in heaven HE WAS NOT GOD.

When Jesus was in heaven he was in the form of or the nature of God meaning he was a spirit being. What ever substance spirit beings are made of, both Jesus and God are made of that same substance. That’s why Philippians 2:5(NRSV) states that “although Jesus was in God’s form he did not regard equality with God something to be exploited.”

Can we put to rest the fact that yes Jesus was divine but that did not make him God Almighty.

The Bible makes it clear that he was in heaven before he came to earth. The Bible shows that he was Michael the archangel which means chief-angel. So he was the foremost angel in heaven. If you want me to show you scriptures about how Jesus was Michael in his pre-human existence. I’d be happy to do that. Even though he was the chief angel he still was not the right hand of God’s throne and power.

But once he went back to heaven and provided himself to God as the ransom sacrifice he was exulted to a superior position and became higher than anything else except God. Notice what Luke wrote at Acts 2:32-35(NIV):
"God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, " 'The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” ’

What Paul is doing in the book of Hebrews is providing scriptual proof that Jesus is the son of God(Hebrews 1,12), that he is over the angels(1:4-6,13), that he is greater than Abraham(7:1-6), greater than Moses(3:1-6) and the prophets(1:1,2).

The verse you keep referring to dmaddox is Hebrews 1:13 which states:
"13 To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”

In that verse Paul is providing scriptural references about the superiority and the exalted position that Jesus is now in. That statement about sitting at Gods right hand is first mentioned first at Psalms 110:1, Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36 and Luke 20:42.

So no dmaddox once Jesus went back to heaven he was at a higher position than he was before he went to earth and higher than that of an angel.

But what does that prove? If anything it proves that Jesus and God are not the same because he is at God’s right hand meaning they are two separate beings. Meaning he is second in position of authority but still subject to God. 1 Corinthians 15:20:24(NIV) explains this well:

“Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25[i] For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet[i/]. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

107

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

Those are titles, Pat. Add one more to that, you are a Son, right? Your ‘manifestations’ that you gave were all in relation to something else. You are a father to your children, you are a husband to your wife and you are an employee to your company. You would also be a son to your father. These titles intrinsically state that there is others directly involved.[/quote]

They are not titles. They are all things I actually am. I am not called a dad, I am a dad. It’s merely an illustration how one thing can be many. I am many things, I am one pat.

108

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
I always thought the Catholics were good at comparing the Trinity to a clover. You have three distinct leaves on a clover, but they are all part of the clover. You cannot remove one leaf and still have a full clover. No leaf is superior to the others.[/quote]

3 manifestations of one God. For instance, I am a father, a husband, an asshole, and an employee. I am always a dad, I am always a husband, I am always an asshole, and hopefull I will stay an employee. I am 4 manifestations of one pat. God is always the creator, always the Son that relates to us, and always the Holy Spirit who compels us.
Yes this sounds complicated to us, but look at the 4 manifestations of pat…Now imagine I created dogs and had to related to them, so I manifested myself as a dog and had to explain how I can be all those things as a human and still be a dog. That’s similar to God becoming human and trying to explain his reality to us when it doesn’t make sense in our contexts.[/quote]

Those are titles, Pat. Add one more to that, you are a Son, right? Your ‘manifestations’ that you gave were all in relation to something else. You are a father to your children, you are a husband to your wife and you are an employee to your company. You would also be a son to your father. These titles intrinsically state that there is others directly involved.[/quote]

Let me butt into this discussion very quickly, any comparison between a human and his roles as an example of the trinity will fall short because we do not have the capacity for multiple personifications of our essence. That is the problem with all analogies - taken to an extreme they all have issues because nothing is perfect match for God.

We can and will always be a single person with a single essence, whereas God (also with a single essence) has the power to manifest himself in three distinct personifications of that essence - as the Holy Father, as the humananity-clad Son and the Holy Spirit (our divine companion). One divine essence - three divine personifications of that essence.

The term trinity appears nowhere in scripture and is a term of human invention to describe this amazing Divine attribute. - The Bible states categorically that there is one God, but demonstrates that this one God has made himself know to us in three distinct manifestations. Each manifestation (personification) is clearly identified as God in the Scripture, but no additional explanation of this trait is provided.

So there you have it. I can biblically prove there is one God, that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God and that they are One - and that’s the end of it. I cannot explain it anymore than I could explain how his omnipotence or eternality works . … . it just is.

Moral of the story? We know there 1 God with 3 distinct personification manifested to us.[/quote]

Word.

109

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
JWs action plan to debate.

Christian asks question to JW.
JW answers with a question that has nothing to do with the original question.
Christian restates Question asked to JW.
JW asks their question again saying it deals with context.
Christian answeres JW question.
JW then asks another question, but now refuses to answer the original question because it does not matter any more.
Christian asks the original question yet again.
JW asks another question.
Christian confronts the JW with the truth.
JW then calls Christian some name and attacks them personally.
JW states that only they know the true meaning of the Bible reguardless of whether the information provided to them is incorrect from a false prophet. JW admits that Russell had some flaws in his teachings, but they really know the truth now. They had to learn from their mistakes, but now they got it right. Russell believed that the Pyramid at Giza was just as Holy as the Temple in Jerusalem.

You think I got it?

I forgot one. Take every piece of scripture out of context and spin it so it meets their understanding/translation/interpretation, because they know the real truth, better than the people that actually lived and spoke with Christ.

mse2us and Honest_Lifter we have shown you guys over and over that you are wrong, but you just do not get it. I have stated this before and I will state it again. Your beleifs do not make you any different than Satan. Satan beleives that Jesus is the Son of God. You know the Bible, but you do not know the author. Works do not get you into heaven. It is only by the Grace of God that you can be with God. Oh I forgot, only a few select holy people can go to Heaven. My brothers on here IrishSteel, Haney1, Pat, Katzenjammer, BBrier, Cueball, and others that I have missed, and I will call down to you when we are sitting at the feet of the Lamb that was slain who is sitting on the Throne to see how you are doing. Just because you do not beleive in Hell does not mean there is not one. Ignorance is not bliss.

How about the answer to the question Hebrews 1:13, To which angel did God ever ask sit at my right hand? Jesus is not an angel. Another false doctrine of Russel.[/quote]
Hebrews 1:13 I just don’t understand why one would be so hung up on this scripture in regards to proving the Trinity when there are dozens of clear and direct scriptures such as the 4 that I used in my first post on this thread. It’s mind boggling.

I’m in no way dodging or ducking the question. I haven’t answer it yet because since I’m working it’s hard for me to complete a post in a timely manner and when I do complete a post and see more important questions about 1914 or blood transfusions I’d rather answer those questions instead of a question like this. The people who asked those question were sincerely asking them wanting to know why. You dmaddox aren’t looking for an answer and you’re not asking with an open mind. You think you can get me to contradict myself when I answer this question. You can not.

Jesus was a spirit being before he came to earth as a human. I keep saying this but I guess I’ll say it again. Yes Jesus is divine which means heavenly. He is from the heavens. Notice what Jesus himself said in regards to his pre-human existence at John 17:4,5(NIV):
“4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”

So where was he before he came to earth? In heaven with God. Should I quote it in another language? Should I try to find the Aramaic version and use that instead of plain english? That verse alone should be enough to show that when Jesus was in heaven HE WAS NOT GOD.

When Jesus was in heaven he was in the form of or the nature of God meaning he was a spirit being. What ever substance spirit beings are made of, both Jesus and God are made of that same substance. That’s why Philippians 2:5(NRSV) states that “although Jesus was in God’s form he did not regard equality with God something to be exploited.”

Can we put to rest the fact that yes Jesus was divine but that did not make him God Almighty.

The Bible makes it clear that he was in heaven before he came to earth. The Bible shows that he was Michael the archangel which means chief-angel. So he was the foremost angel in heaven. If you want me to show you scriptures about how Jesus was Michael in his pre-human existence. I’d be happy to do that. Even though he was the chief angel he still was not the right hand of God’s throne and power.

But once he went back to heaven and provided himself to God as the ransom sacrifice he was exulted to a superior position and became higher than anything else except God. Notice what Luke wrote at Acts 2:32-35(NIV):
"God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, " 'The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” ’

What Paul is doing in the book of Hebrews is providing scriptual proof that Jesus is the son of God(Hebrews 1,12), that he is over the angels(1:4-6,13), that he is greater than Abraham(7:1-6), greater than Moses(3:1-6) and the prophets(1:1,2).

The verse you keep referring to dmaddox is Hebrews 1:13 which states:
"13 To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”

In that verse Paul is providing scriptural references about the superiority and the exalted position that Jesus is now in. That statement about sitting at Gods right hand is first mentioned first at Psalms 110:1, Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36 and Luke 20:42.

So no dmaddox once Jesus went back to heaven he was at a higher position than he was before he went to earth and higher than that of an angel.

But what does that prove? If anything it proves that Jesus and God are not the same because he is at God’s right hand meaning they are two separate beings. Meaning he is second in position of authority but still subject to God. 1 Corinthians 15:20:24(NIV) explains this well:

“Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25[i] For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet[i/]. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

[/quote]

Way to dodge that question again. I find it amazing how you write so much yet never really say anything.

JWs beleive that Jesus is the Arch-Angel Michael, and you have said that plenty of times. Hebrews 1:13 is God saying he has never asked an angel to sit at his right hand. You have stated that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father. With this said Hebrews 1:13 means Jesus is not an angel. I have used the Bible, but you do not understand it. Should I conclude, logically, that you do not understand how to interpret the Bible logically on all your other posts? If I use your logic then yes I should not beleive a word you say about the Bible.

110

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
JWs action plan to debate.

Christian asks question to JW.
JW answers with a question that has nothing to do with the original question.
Christian restates Question asked to JW.
JW asks their question again saying it deals with context.
Christian answeres JW question.
JW then asks another question, but now refuses to answer the original question because it does not matter any more.
Christian asks the original question yet again.
JW asks another question.
Christian confronts the JW with the truth.
JW then calls Christian some name and attacks them personally.
JW states that only they know the true meaning of the Bible reguardless of whether the information provided to them is incorrect from a false prophet. JW admits that Russell had some flaws in his teachings, but they really know the truth now. They had to learn from their mistakes, but now they got it right. Russell believed that the Pyramid at Giza was just as Holy as the Temple in Jerusalem.

You think I got it?

I forgot one. Take every piece of scripture out of context and spin it so it meets their understanding/translation/interpretation, because they know the real truth, better than the people that actually lived and spoke with Christ.

mse2us and Honest_Lifter we have shown you guys over and over that you are wrong, but you just do not get it. I have stated this before and I will state it again. Your beleifs do not make you any different than Satan. Satan beleives that Jesus is the Son of God. You know the Bible, but you do not know the author. Works do not get you into heaven. It is only by the Grace of God that you can be with God. Oh I forgot, only a few select holy people can go to Heaven. My brothers on here IrishSteel, Haney1, Pat, Katzenjammer, BBrier, Cueball, and others that I have missed, and I will call down to you when we are sitting at the feet of the Lamb that was slain who is sitting on the Throne to see how you are doing. Just because you do not beleive in Hell does not mean there is not one. Ignorance is not bliss.

How about the answer to the question Hebrews 1:13, To which angel did God ever ask sit at my right hand? Jesus is not an angel. Another false doctrine of Russel.[/quote]
Hebrews 1:13 I just don’t understand why one would be so hung up on this scripture in regards to proving the Trinity when there are dozens of clear and direct scriptures such as the 4 that I used in my first post on this thread. It’s mind boggling.

I’m in no way dodging or ducking the question. I haven’t answer it yet because since I’m working it’s hard for me to complete a post in a timely manner and when I do complete a post and see more important questions about 1914 or blood transfusions I’d rather answer those questions instead of a question like this. The people who asked those question were sincerely asking them wanting to know why. You dmaddox aren’t looking for an answer and you’re not asking with an open mind. You think you can get me to contradict myself when I answer this question. You can not.

Jesus was a spirit being before he came to earth as a human. I keep saying this but I guess I’ll say it again. Yes Jesus is divine which means heavenly. He is from the heavens. Notice what Jesus himself said in regards to his pre-human existence at John 17:4,5(NIV):
“4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”

So where was he before he came to earth? In heaven with God. Should I quote it in another language? Should I try to find the Aramaic version and use that instead of plain english? That verse alone should be enough to show that when Jesus was in heaven HE WAS NOT GOD.

When Jesus was in heaven he was in the form of or the nature of God meaning he was a spirit being. What ever substance spirit beings are made of, both Jesus and God are made of that same substance. That’s why Philippians 2:5(NRSV) states that “although Jesus was in God’s form he did not regard equality with God something to be exploited.”

Can we put to rest the fact that yes Jesus was divine but that did not make him God Almighty.

The Bible makes it clear that he was in heaven before he came to earth. The Bible shows that he was Michael the archangel which means chief-angel. So he was the foremost angel in heaven. If you want me to show you scriptures about how Jesus was Michael in his pre-human existence. I’d be happy to do that. Even though he was the chief angel he still was not the right hand of God’s throne and power.

But once he went back to heaven and provided himself to God as the ransom sacrifice he was exulted to a superior position and became higher than anything else except God. Notice what Luke wrote at Acts 2:32-35(NIV):
"God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, " 'The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” ’

What Paul is doing in the book of Hebrews is providing scriptual proof that Jesus is the son of God(Hebrews 1,12), that he is over the angels(1:4-6,13), that he is greater than Abraham(7:1-6), greater than Moses(3:1-6) and the prophets(1:1,2).

The verse you keep referring to dmaddox is Hebrews 1:13 which states:
"13 To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”

In that verse Paul is providing scriptural references about the superiority and the exalted position that Jesus is now in. That statement about sitting at Gods right hand is first mentioned first at Psalms 110:1, Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36 and Luke 20:42.

So no dmaddox once Jesus went back to heaven he was at a higher position than he was before he went to earth and higher than that of an angel.

But what does that prove? If anything it proves that Jesus and God are not the same because he is at God’s right hand meaning they are two separate beings. Meaning he is second in position of authority but still subject to God. 1 Corinthians 15:20:24(NIV) explains this well:

“Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25[i] For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet[i/]. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

[/quote]

I am going to put this another way.

So Jesus was second in command before he became Human, and when he went back to heaven he was exalted to second in command? That is awesome logic.

111

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I had a couple requests by PM as well. Gimme a day or so. I’ll have to put together a way to capture audio cassettes to a computer. Haven’t used tapes in a while =]

I haven’t listened to this in quite a while, but I have to warn you guys. Being a couple decades younger and cockier (and less mature) I had a jackhammer temperament back then. The info is good, all from source, you can look it up, but I was much less gracious in those days. This is the bazooka method. BOOOOOM!!! That isn’t unbiblical in itself, but I handle things a bit differently now.

The one you guys would really like which I don’t know if I still have is when the honcho at the local kingdom hall (I was living in North Dakota at the time) called in one of their big guns, whose title escapes me at the moment, from Minneapolis. Yes, they will do this. They wanted me either converted or shut up once and for all.

They brought him to my apartment. I told him I was going to record our meeting and would make unedited copies available to them so they could give them to their members after he straightened me out. He, and his wife, confidently agreed. There’s no other way to put this so let’s just say that they had zero interest in letting their members hear what happened in what turned out to actually be 2 meetings. He thought it best not to bring his wife to the second one. She didn’t do too well. They were further quite unenthusiastic about my putting them in the mailboxes of the members whose places of residence I knew.

Make no mistake. I have nothing against JW’s as people and every one I’ve ever met were very nice to me. Probably nicer than I was to them sometimes. However, The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is nothing more than the revival of a very very old heresy at the hands of a history and Bible shredding crackpot leading to an entire system of thought that in America they have the right to believe, but whatever else it may be it ain’t the Gospel of the risen Christ.[/quote]
Your third paragraph is completely false. For one, our headquarters are in Brooklyn, NY and they have never been in Minneapolis. Two, we don’t have “high ranking” members in our organization. You may be referring to a traveling brother who visits congregation in a tri-state area and is a full-time minister meaning he doesn’t work. Three, we never forcible try to get someone we study with to convert and we would never have someone come in from out of town to try to convert someone. Are you serious! We offer free home bible studies where we come to an interested persons house for 1 hour per week and study the bible with that person. I have been to several different congregations and I personally know people who have studied for 20 years and all they do is study the Bible. They are never pressured to become a Jehovah’s Witness. They may be encouraged but not pressured especially the way Tiribulus has explained. My mom has studied with people for years and all she does is have a study with that person for 1 hour per week and invite that person to our meetings. Sometime that person goes to the meetings but most of the time she does not, but the person still wants to have a study with my mom so she still has it with this person she doesn’t apply pressure to become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I have studied the Bible with a person for months and after months of studying I stopped it because I thought that the person was more interested in working on his english(he was Chinese) than learning about the Bible. Exerting pressure on someone is the last thing an Jehovah’s Witness would do. It’s hard enough in the world we live in today to find people interested in the Bible let alone willing to study the bible with us. When we do find someone interested we are very cautious and reserved with that person in fear of them saying I don’t want to study anymore and pressure is the exact thing that would turn people off. For example, when I go from door-to-door and place our magazines we can ask for a donation to cover the cost of the magazine but most of the time I don’t in fear of that person saying nevermind. I just put the money to cover the cost of the magazine in the donation box myself.

Recording a private meeting between you and another Jehovah’s Witness makes no sense. If someone came to the privacy of your home to talk to you they would not want it recorded and distributed to the rest of the members. If it were for the ears of the rest of the congregation we would say it from the platform and not the privacy of your home. We don’t record private meetings we have with a brother or a family because it’s private conversation between them.

This is a good example of not relying on someone else to tell you the truth about something. Obviously Tiribulus had a bad experience with my religion and since none of us know both sides of the issue relying on his side would be the wrong thing to do. Because of whatever the issue was he is obviously bitter and has nothing good to say about my religion. That’s not the first time and it won’t be the last. If you want to find the truth about something take the time to see for yourself. Please don’t form an opinion based on one man’s experience.

112

[quote]mse2us wrote:<<< another long post >>>
[/quote]
I know exactly where your headquarters are and have been there myself. They were kind enough to give me a tour. I never mentioned your headquarters at all. I said they brought in what they considered a heavyweight, maybe I phrased it wrong, but I promise you it happened just as I said. I also said that his title escaped me. The guy I knew, whose name was Bill, asked me if he could bring this man and his wife over. I agreed and when they got there the following week I told him I was going to record our meeting to which he agreed. Rereading my post I do see how you might conclude that I was saying he agreed to distribute it to their members. I apologize. He agreed to let me record it, (it was my place) I said they were welcome to unedited copies if they wanted them. They did not as I also said. I also never said anybody pressured me, which would be the wrong way to characterize it, but they spent 4 years earnestly trying to get me to see things their way. I agreed to every one of their meetings and instigated just as many myself.

I had no bad experience with Jehovah’s Witnesses. Never said that either. I found them personable and generous with their time and never a cross word exchanged, though it got close with the guy from Minneapolis’s wife. She wasn’t happy. I even went hunting with Bill and his son. There was no bad experience, but I was filling that area with material that was harming their evangelism efforts, including this tape, side one of which I am about to post. I was doing so because I believed as I do now, that despite being very nice people, the watchtower was a demonic cult that was leading people including them to a hell that they don’t believe in.

Come on, you can’t fault a guy for that. What if you believed in hell and further believed I was leading people there. Good grief, that’s far worse than annihilation.

113

Some more info is in the post, but here is side 1 of this tape of myself 22 years ago laying out the foundations of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. I have been struggling to get this captured and recompressed efficiently all day. For now this is the best I can do. I’ll have side 2 hopefully later.
http://gregnmary.gotdns.com:8080/index.php/topic,212.msg883.html#msg883
@mse2us:
With all due deference, listen to the tape and judge for yourself whether I’ve done my homework albeit a long time ago.

Side 2 is now up in the same thread. Side 2’s quality is much better than side 1. Side 1 is usable, but I’ll see if I can figure out why.
http://gregnmary.gotdns.com:8080/index.php/topic,212.new.html#new
These are 128kbs and should stream fine even with my residential bandwidth, but feel free to download them.

114

Trib,

what is your interest in the JW’s? Why have you expended so much time and energy investigating and studying them? What’s the motive?

115

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
JWs action plan to debate.

Christian asks question to JW.
JW answers with a question that has nothing to do with the original question.
Christian restates Question asked to JW.
JW asks their question again saying it deals with context.
Christian answeres JW question.
JW then asks another question, but now refuses to answer the original question because it does not matter any more.
Christian asks the original question yet again.
JW asks another question.
Christian confronts the JW with the truth.
JW then calls Christian some name and attacks them personally.
JW states that only they know the true meaning of the Bible reguardless of whether the information provided to them is incorrect from a false prophet. JW admits that Russell had some flaws in his teachings, but they really know the truth now. They had to learn from their mistakes, but now they got it right. Russell believed that the Pyramid at Giza was just as Holy as the Temple in Jerusalem.

You think I got it?

I forgot one. Take every piece of scripture out of context and spin it so it meets their understanding/translation/interpretation, because they know the real truth, better than the people that actually lived and spoke with Christ.

mse2us and Honest_Lifter we have shown you guys over and over that you are wrong, but you just do not get it. I have stated this before and I will state it again. Your beleifs do not make you any different than Satan. Satan beleives that Jesus is the Son of God. You know the Bible, but you do not know the author. Works do not get you into heaven. It is only by the Grace of God that you can be with God. Oh I forgot, only a few select holy people can go to Heaven. My brothers on here IrishSteel, Haney1, Pat, Katzenjammer, BBrier, Cueball, and others that I have missed, and I will call down to you when we are sitting at the feet of the Lamb that was slain who is sitting on the Throne to see how you are doing. Just because you do not beleive in Hell does not mean there is not one. Ignorance is not bliss.

How about the answer to the question Hebrews 1:13, To which angel did God ever ask sit at my right hand? Jesus is not an angel. Another false doctrine of Russel.[/quote]
Hebrews 1:13 I just don’t understand why one would be so hung up on this scripture in regards to proving the Trinity when there are dozens of clear and direct scriptures such as the 4 that I used in my first post on this thread. It’s mind boggling.

I’m in no way dodging or ducking the question. I haven’t answer it yet because since I’m working it’s hard for me to complete a post in a timely manner and when I do complete a post and see more important questions about 1914 or blood transfusions I’d rather answer those questions instead of a question like this. The people who asked those question were sincerely asking them wanting to know why. You dmaddox aren’t looking for an answer and you’re not asking with an open mind. You think you can get me to contradict myself when I answer this question. You can not.

Jesus was a spirit being before he came to earth as a human. I keep saying this but I guess I’ll say it again. Yes Jesus is divine which means heavenly. He is from the heavens. Notice what Jesus himself said in regards to his pre-human existence at John 17:4,5(NIV):
“4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”

So where was he before he came to earth? In heaven with God. Should I quote it in another language? Should I try to find the Aramaic version and use that instead of plain english? That verse alone should be enough to show that when Jesus was in heaven HE WAS NOT GOD.

When Jesus was in heaven he was in the form of or the nature of God meaning he was a spirit being. What ever substance spirit beings are made of, both Jesus and God are made of that same substance. That’s why Philippians 2:5(NRSV) states that “although Jesus was in God’s form he did not regard equality with God something to be exploited.”

Can we put to rest the fact that yes Jesus was divine but that did not make him God Almighty.

The Bible makes it clear that he was in heaven before he came to earth. The Bible shows that he was Michael the archangel which means chief-angel. So he was the foremost angel in heaven. If you want me to show you scriptures about how Jesus was Michael in his pre-human existence. I’d be happy to do that. Even though he was the chief angel he still was not the right hand of God’s throne and power.

But once he went back to heaven and provided himself to God as the ransom sacrifice he was exulted to a superior position and became higher than anything else except God. Notice what Luke wrote at Acts 2:32-35(NIV):
"God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, " 'The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” ’

What Paul is doing in the book of Hebrews is providing scriptual proof that Jesus is the son of God(Hebrews 1,12), that he is over the angels(1:4-6,13), that he is greater than Abraham(7:1-6), greater than Moses(3:1-6) and the prophets(1:1,2).

The verse you keep referring to dmaddox is Hebrews 1:13 which states:
"13 To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”

In that verse Paul is providing scriptural references about the superiority and the exalted position that Jesus is now in. That statement about sitting at Gods right hand is first mentioned first at Psalms 110:1, Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36 and Luke 20:42.

So no dmaddox once Jesus went back to heaven he was at a higher position than he was before he went to earth and higher than that of an angel.

But what does that prove? If anything it proves that Jesus and God are not the same because he is at God’s right hand meaning they are two separate beings. Meaning he is second in position of authority but still subject to God. 1 Corinthians 15:20:24(NIV) explains this well:

“Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25[i] For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet[i/]. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

[/quote]

I am going to put this another way.

So Jesus was second in command before he became Human, and when he went back to heaven he was exalted to second in command? That is awesome logic.[/quote]
I’m sorry D. I did not explain this fully. I left out one important point. Let me see if this will help your understanding.

Jesus as the archangel was the highest ranking angel in heaven but he was not yet exalted to the position to the right hand of God’s power. As the chief angel he had no authority over earth. That’s because when Jesus was in heaven God was using kings like David to represent his rulership on earth. These kings of course were still in subjection to God which is why King Zedekiah was called a prince at Ezekiel 21:26,27 despite being a king. So Jesus in his pre-human existence had not yet been exalted and all things except God put under him. Once he died and was resurrected then he was given all authority in heaven and on earth. We see Jesus tell his disciple this at Matthew 28:18 (NIV):
"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

Philippians 2:9-11(NIV):
“Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

So before he came to earth he was the chief or the foremost angel but he was not yet exalted to the highest place possible which is at the right hand of God. Once he was exalted he became higher than an angel and everything in heaven except God and everything on earth was placed under him.

So again Paul at Hebrews 1:13 is saying that no angel has ever been told to sit at God’s right hand until God places his enemies as a stool for his feet. Once Jesus was exalted he was no longer at the rank of an angel. He was now higher than and angel and second in authority to God.

Is that clearer for you? And I’m still waiting for you to explain how my first post which is is clear and obvious is out of context or wrong as you said.

116

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Jesus as the archangel was the highest ranking angel in heaven but he was not yet exalted to the position to the right hand of God’s power. As the chief angel he had no authority over earth. That’s because when Jesus was in heaven God was using kings like David to represent his rulership on earth. These kings of course were still in subjection to God which is why King Zedekiah was called a prince at Ezekiel 21:26,27 despite being a king. So Jesus in his pre-human existence had not yet been exalted and all things except God put under him. Once he died and was resurrected then he was given all authority in heaven and on earth. We see Jesus tell his disciple this at Matthew 28:18 (NIV):
"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

[/quote]

I thought Satan has authority over the earth?

117

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
JWs action plan to debate.

Christian asks question to JW.
JW answers with a question that has nothing to do with the original question.
Christian restates Question asked to JW.
JW asks their question again saying it deals with context.
Christian answeres JW question.
JW then asks another question, but now refuses to answer the original question because it does not matter any more.
Christian asks the original question yet again.
JW asks another question.
Christian confronts the JW with the truth.
JW then calls Christian some name and attacks them personally.
JW states that only they know the true meaning of the Bible reguardless of whether the information provided to them is incorrect from a false prophet. JW admits that Russell had some flaws in his teachings, but they really know the truth now. They had to learn from their mistakes, but now they got it right. Russell believed that the Pyramid at Giza was just as Holy as the Temple in Jerusalem.

You think I got it?

I forgot one. Take every piece of scripture out of context and spin it so it meets their understanding/translation/interpretation, because they know the real truth, better than the people that actually lived and spoke with Christ.

mse2us and Honest_Lifter we have shown you guys over and over that you are wrong, but you just do not get it. I have stated this before and I will state it again. Your beleifs do not make you any different than Satan. Satan beleives that Jesus is the Son of God. You know the Bible, but you do not know the author. Works do not get you into heaven. It is only by the Grace of God that you can be with God. Oh I forgot, only a few select holy people can go to Heaven. My brothers on here IrishSteel, Haney1, Pat, Katzenjammer, BBrier, Cueball, and others that I have missed, and I will call down to you when we are sitting at the feet of the Lamb that was slain who is sitting on the Throne to see how you are doing. Just because you do not beleive in Hell does not mean there is not one. Ignorance is not bliss.

How about the answer to the question Hebrews 1:13, To which angel did God ever ask sit at my right hand? Jesus is not an angel. Another false doctrine of Russel.[/quote]
Hebrews 1:13 I just don’t understand why one would be so hung up on this scripture in regards to proving the Trinity when there are dozens of clear and direct scriptures such as the 4 that I used in my first post on this thread. It’s mind boggling.

I’m in no way dodging or ducking the question. I haven’t answer it yet because since I’m working it’s hard for me to complete a post in a timely manner and when I do complete a post and see more important questions about 1914 or blood transfusions I’d rather answer those questions instead of a question like this. The people who asked those question were sincerely asking them wanting to know why. You dmaddox aren’t looking for an answer and you’re not asking with an open mind. You think you can get me to contradict myself when I answer this question. You can not.

Jesus was a spirit being before he came to earth as a human. I keep saying this but I guess I’ll say it again. Yes Jesus is divine which means heavenly. He is from the heavens. Notice what Jesus himself said in regards to his pre-human existence at John 17:4,5(NIV):
“4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”

So where was he before he came to earth? In heaven with God. Should I quote it in another language? Should I try to find the Aramaic version and use that instead of plain english? That verse alone should be enough to show that when Jesus was in heaven HE WAS NOT GOD.

When Jesus was in heaven he was in the form of or the nature of God meaning he was a spirit being. What ever substance spirit beings are made of, both Jesus and God are made of that same substance. That’s why Philippians 2:5(NRSV) states that “although Jesus was in God’s form he did not regard equality with God something to be exploited.”

Can we put to rest the fact that yes Jesus was divine but that did not make him God Almighty.

The Bible makes it clear that he was in heaven before he came to earth. The Bible shows that he was Michael the archangel which means chief-angel. So he was the foremost angel in heaven. If you want me to show you scriptures about how Jesus was Michael in his pre-human existence. I’d be happy to do that. Even though he was the chief angel he still was not the right hand of God’s throne and power.

But once he went back to heaven and provided himself to God as the ransom sacrifice he was exulted to a superior position and became higher than anything else except God. Notice what Luke wrote at Acts 2:32-35(NIV):
"God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, " 'The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” ’

What Paul is doing in the book of Hebrews is providing scriptual proof that Jesus is the son of God(Hebrews 1,12), that he is over the angels(1:4-6,13), that he is greater than Abraham(7:1-6), greater than Moses(3:1-6) and the prophets(1:1,2).

The verse you keep referring to dmaddox is Hebrews 1:13 which states:
"13 To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”

In that verse Paul is providing scriptural references about the superiority and the exalted position that Jesus is now in. That statement about sitting at Gods right hand is first mentioned first at Psalms 110:1, Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36 and Luke 20:42.

So no dmaddox once Jesus went back to heaven he was at a higher position than he was before he went to earth and higher than that of an angel.

But what does that prove? If anything it proves that Jesus and God are not the same because he is at God’s right hand meaning they are two separate beings. Meaning he is second in position of authority but still subject to God. 1 Corinthians 15:20:24(NIV) explains this well:

“Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25[i] For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet[i/]. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

[/quote]

I am going to put this another way.

So Jesus was second in command before he became Human, and when he went back to heaven he was exalted to second in command? That is awesome logic.[/quote]
I’m sorry D. I did not explain this fully. I left out one important point. Let me see if this will help your understanding.

Jesus as the archangel was the highest ranking angel in heaven but he was not yet exalted to the position to the right hand of God’s power. As the chief angel he had no authority over earth. That’s because when Jesus was in heaven God was using kings like David to represent his rulership on earth. These kings of course were still in subjection to God which is why King Zedekiah was called a prince at Ezekiel 21:26,27 despite being a king. So Jesus in his pre-human existence had not yet been exalted and all things except God put under him. Once he died and was resurrected then he was given all authority in heaven and on earth. We see Jesus tell his disciple this at Matthew 28:18 (NIV):
"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

Philippians 2:9-11(NIV):
“Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

So before he came to earth he was the chief or the foremost angel but he was not yet exalted to the highest place possible which is at the right hand of God. Once he was exalted he became higher than an angel and everything in heaven except God and everything on earth was placed under him.

So again Paul at Hebrews 1:13 is saying that no angel has ever been told to sit at God’s right hand until God places his enemies as a stool for his feet. Once Jesus was exalted he was no longer at the rank of an angel. He was now higher than and angel and second in authority to God.

Is that clearer for you? And I’m still waiting for you to explain how my first post which is is clear and obvious is out of context or wrong as you said.[/quote]

So let me see if I get this right. Jesus was the Arch-Angel Michael. Then, came to Earth died for our sins, was resurrected, then got a promotion and is now not an angel? Did Jehovah recreate him then? You really might want to think about this a little more. Your logic is a little sketchy.

118

[quote]GCF wrote:
Trib,

what is your interest in the JW’s? Why have you expended so much time and energy investigating and studying them? What’s the motive?[/quote]
It wasn’t just them. I became proficient. quite so actually, in mormonism, eastern religions, the way international, the unification church, christian science, European redaction liberalism and to a somewhat lesser extent Islam. There were also several other smaller outfits like the theosophical society and swedenborgianism that I dipped into a bit.

My first passion as far as defending the faith was concerned was the word of faith movement which was everywhere back then, even in orthodox denominations, despite being a comprehensive collection of thoroughgoing metaphysical heresy. I have a bunch of tapes I did back then on them too. Of course I was still primarily hammering out my own personal theology too.

I had a personal library of over 2000 volumes and 800 tapes with roughly half of it being cultic crap and yes I spent ALOT of time studying.

Why? Because I felt I was called to do it. Defend the faith once for all delivered to the saints. I’ve wondered in recent years if maybe I still am, but most of my library was in storage at my mother’s house and was destroyed in a fire there several years ago. Something I’m pondering and praying about.

119

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]GCF wrote:
Trib,

what is your interest in the JW’s? Why have you expended so much time and energy investigating and studying them? What’s the motive?[/quote]
It wasn’t just them. I became proficient. quite so actually, in mormonism, eastern religions, the way international, the unification church, christian science, European redaction liberalism and to a somewhat lesser extent Islam. There were also several other smaller outfits like the theosophical society and swedenborgianism that I dipped into a bit.

My first passion as far as defending the faith was concerned was the word of faith movement which was everywhere back then, even in orthodox denominations, despite being a comprehensive collection of thoroughgoing metaphysical heresy. I have a bunch of tapes I did back then on them too. Of course I was still primarily hammering out my own personal theology too.

I had a personal library of over 2000 volumes and 800 tapes with roughly half of it being cultic crap and yes I spent ALOT of time studying.

Why? Because I felt I was called to do it. Defend the faith once for all delivered to the saints. I’ve wondered in recent years if maybe I still am, but most of my library was in storage at my mother’s house and was destroyed in a fire there several years ago. Something I’m pondering and praying about. [/quote]

Wow man. I don’t know what to say. You sound like a competely eccentric madman. An entertaining one I’m sure.

I’m looking forward to listening to some of those tapes.

120

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Some more info is in the post, but here is side 1 of this tape of myself 22 years ago laying out the foundations of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. I have been struggling to get this captured and recompressed efficiently all day. For now this is the best I can do. I’ll have side 2 hopefully later.
http://gregnmary.gotdns.com:8080/index.php/topic,212.msg883.html#msg883
@mse2us:
With all due deference, listen to the tape and judge for yourself whether I’ve done my homework albeit a long time ago.

Side 2 is now up in the same thread. Side 2’s quality is much better than side 1. Side 1 is usable, but I’ll see if I can figure out why.
http://gregnmary.gotdns.com:8080/index.php/topic,212.new.html#new
These are 128kbs and should stream fine even with my residential bandwidth, but feel free to download them.[/quote]

thanks Trib. Excellent outlay of the history. I did my original research in 80’s while searching for answers about my own beliefs and I have to say you did even better research than I did. It was funny hearing you reading from the books and remembering reading them myself. I doubt I could have presented such a concise presentation. i appreciate you sharing these with us.