Trinity - Bible Teaching or Doctrine of Man

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Jesus as the archangel was the highest ranking angel in heaven but he was not yet exalted to the position to the right hand of God’s power. As the chief angel he had no authority over earth. That’s because when Jesus was in heaven God was using kings like David to represent his rulership on earth. These kings of course were still in subjection to God which is why King Zedekiah was called a prince at Ezekiel 21:26,27 despite being a king. So Jesus in his pre-human existence had not yet been exalted and all things except God put under him. Once he died and was resurrected then he was given all authority in heaven and on earth. We see Jesus tell his disciple this at Matthew 28:18 (NIV):
"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

[/quote]

I thought Satan has authority over the earth?
[/quote]
God did not give Satan authority over the earth. He has allowed Satan to existence because Satan challenged God’s sovereignty when he implied to Eve that God was being unfair when he restricted both her and Adam from eating from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. Satan later in the book of Job said implied that he could corrupt all humans given the chance. So this called all humans integrity to God. So he has allowed Satan to have a strong influence on the world to see who is going to submit to Gods rule by follow his commandments as stated in his word the Bible and who will allow Satan to influence them and not submit to God’s rule. Those issues are currently being settled now.[/quote]

This is not what you were saying earlier. You told us that when Jesus was tempted by Satan he had all authority over the Earth to give those things to Jesus. Now you are saying he doesn’t. I stated that Satan was lieing, and you stated that he was not lieing, that he had authority to give the kingdoms of Earth to Jesus.

So who is lieing now?[/quote]
No D. God was and still is the Sovereign Lord of everything. What you don’t understand is that Satan has been allowed to influence the kingdoms of the world to the point that they are like puppets to a puppeteer. God has temporarily allowed Satan to have this type of influence over the earth so much so that all of the governments are under his power. That is why Jesus called him the Ruler of the World at John 14:30 and Paul called him the God of this system of things at 2 Corinthians 4:4. Even demons exercise ruling power. They are referred to as “the world rulers of this darkness” at Ephesians 6:12 and have exercised authority over the world powers of history, such as the invisible ‘princes’ over Persia and Greece mentioned at Daniel 10:13,20. So no D. I’m not lying. God has allowed Satan to control the humans governments over the earth but he did not give Satan the authority over the entire earth like he gave his kings in Israel authority over his people in Israel and like he gave Jesus authority in heaven and earth. There’s a difference.[/quote]

I see your point and agree with it to a degree, but you have stated that Satan has the ability to give Jesus all of the kingdoms of Earth. If God is the Soverign Lord of Everything then God is the one who put the rulers over the kingdoms and not Satan. IMO since Jesus is fully God and fully Human, Satan was trying to tempt the human side of Jesus to bow before him. Had Jesus bowed before Satan then Jesus’ fully God side would be bowing before Satan, and Satan knew this. As we see through the entire New Testament the struggle between the Human side and God side of Jesus. You may not see it, but that is what is going on. The Human side gives glory to God, and the God side is the one that claims his divinity and Godship with the statements of “I AM” and “I am the Messiah” and “I am the King of the Jews.” An angel never ruled over the people of Israel. Only God and the Men that God put over them.

I have stated this before and you seem to not understand this. Satan beleives that Jesus is the Son of God, but what makes his beliefs different from yours? You beleive that it is your works that get you to heaven. If you hand out enough tracts, knock on enough doors, post walls of words on the internet, or convert enough people to your belief then you might be able to surplant one of the 144,000 and you to will be able to rule with Jesus. You will be equal to Jesus. This is what you are taught.

It is the power of Jesus’ blood that vanquishes Satan. This blood must be of the only one Divine, not an angel. An angel is a messenger of the only one Divine and that is God. It is through Jesus that Satan is vanquished. If our works are what gets us to heaven then what is the reason for the sacrifice? God demands a blood sacrifice for the atonement of sin. This sin was caused by us an not created by God. God gave up his throne and became human so that we will be the righteousness of God. It is not our works but the Grace of God that makes us righteous. The Blood of Jesus cleanses us of all unrighteousness, and not our works that cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

142

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

So let me see if I get this right. Jesus was the Arch-Angel Michael. Then, came to Earth died for our sins, was resurrected, then got a promotion and is now not an angel? Did Jehovah recreate him then? You really might want to think about this a little more. Your logic is a little sketchy.[/quote]

And further, explain this verse I’ve posted at least three times now.

Hebrews 1:5

“For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”

Please show me where in the Bible God calls Michael his son. And it needs to be clear that it’s referring to Michael.[/quote]

Well, in the JWs defense, the basic story is a little illogical as well:

God sacrificed Himself to Himself so that He could correct a mistake He made Himself.[/quote]
You are exactly right BIA. It doesn’t make sense. When one is taught the trinity doctrine he is taught to accept the fact that the doctrine is beyond human’s understanding to fully grasp. They are taught to believe it even though it doesn’t make sense to humans but since God is higher than humans the trinity teaching is higher than humans as well.

They’d rather hold onto a teaching that doesn’t make sense even though there are clear scriptures such as the following at 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (NIV):
“24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.”

You cannot get any clearer than that passage. [/quote]

Please address the scripture I posted, quoted above, and answer the question I posed.

143

dmaddox:

[quote]
I have stated this before and you seem to not understand this. Satan beleives that Jesus is the Son of God, but what makes his beliefs different from yours? You beleive that it is your works that get you to heaven. If you hand out enough tracts, knock on enough doors, post walls of words on the internet, or convert enough people to your belief then you might be able to surplant one of the 144,000 and you to will be able to rule with Jesus. You will be equal to Jesus. This is what you are taught.

It is the power of Jesus’ blood that vanquishes Satan. This blood must be of the only one Divine, not an angel. An angel is a messenger of the only one Divine and that is God. It is through Jesus that Satan is vanquished. If our works are what gets us to heaven then what is the reason for the sacrifice? God demands a blood sacrifice for the atonement of sin. This sin was caused by us an not created by God. God gave up his throne and became human so that we will be the righteousness of God. It is not our works but the Grace of God that makes us righteous. The Blood of Jesus cleanses us of all unrighteousness, and not our works that cleanse us from all unrighteousness.[/quote]

If you could please follow me on just 2 points of interest from these paragraphs, I would appreciate it.

  1. Who caused us to be in a sinful state?

  2. I will get to after this first one.

144

[quote]mse2us wrote:

You are exactly right BIA. It doesn’t make sense. When one is taught the trinity doctrine he is taught to accept the fact that the doctrine is beyond human’s understanding to fully grasp. They are taught to believe it even though it doesn’t make sense to humans but since God is higher than humans the trinity teaching is higher than humans as well.

They’d rather hold onto a teaching that doesn’t make sense even though there are clear scriptures such as the following at 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (NIV):
“24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.”

You cannot get any clearer than that passage. [/quote]

So let me make that passgae crystal clear for you then:

the passage reads: “then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” - the NIV version adds the word MADE

the actual Greek word is HUPOTASSOMENOS and means obedient or submissive.

The word is used in Luke 2:51 where Jesus went with his parents to Nazareth and was obedient (HUPOTASSOMENOS) to them

It is used again in Romans 13:1 where it is said that everyone must submit (HUPOTASSESTHOO) himself to the governing authority.

and again it is used in Ephesians 5:21 where Christians are told to submit (HUPOTASSOMENOI) to one another out of reverence for Christ.

So obviously there word does not indicate or even imply that the person who submits is inferior in nature or essence to the other person. In addition, it is a conscious choice by the individual to choose to submit themselves.

One point more on the Greek word - in this passage it is in the passive voice (HUPOTAGEESETAI) which should be read in the middle voice (sorry for the jargon) - What this means is that the Son is not being made subject, or that he is being forced to submit. He is voluntarily submitting himself to his Heavenly father just as he has Submitted himself to his Earthly father.

Here are the various versions of this passage:

then the Son Himself will also subject Himself to [the Father] Who put all things under Him. Amplified Bible

the Son will present himself to God. NLT

the Son will put himself under God’s authority. GOD’s Word

then he himself, the Son, will place himself under God. The Good News Translation

then he will put himself under God. New Century Version

However, Christ subjecting himself doesn’t mean he ceases to rule. Paul and the other NT writers clearly teach that Christ rules forever:

“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.” Isaiah 9:6-7

“In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands, a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and the interpretation is trustworthy.” Daniel 2:44-45

“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.” Daniel 7:13-14

“He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.” Luke 1:32-33

"and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. Ephesians 1:19-23

“and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” 2 Peter 1:11

“The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever.” Revelation 11:15

So in the end this passage only proves the Triune nature of God - For God clearly rules all and Christ also rules all - and both do so eternally - 3 persons, one essence = pefect harmony

145

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

So let me see if I get this right. Jesus was the Arch-Angel Michael. Then, came to Earth died for our sins, was resurrected, then got a promotion and is now not an angel? Did Jehovah recreate him then? You really might want to think about this a little more. Your logic is a little sketchy.[/quote]

And further, explain this verse I’ve posted at least three times now.

Hebrews 1:5

“For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”

Please show me where in the Bible God calls Michael his son. And it needs to be clear that it’s referring to Michael.[/quote]

Well, in the JWs defense, the basic story is a little illogical as well:

God sacrificed Himself to Himself so that He could correct a mistake He made Himself.[/quote]

So it is more logical to sacrifice an angel to himslef so that he could correct sin? I would say the first is more logical.

I believe that God loves us so much he was willing to take the punishment of sin upon himself. Sending an angel, servant whatever the JWs call Jesus does not show Love, but shows that their Jehovah is not man enough to take the pain on himself.

My faith is that Jesus/God called us friends. John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. God is Love, God is our friend and not an angel. Faith, Hope, & Love but the greatest of these is Love. He does not say Works he says Love.

146

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
dmaddox:

You trying to get your hands dirty in here so that you can go back to the Kingdom Hall and say look what I did. Sorry H, m has one upped you and in my mind has seversal seats ahead of you to be one of the 144k. Keep trying though.

147

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
dmaddox:

You trying to get your hands dirty in here so that you can go back to the Kingdom Hall and say look what I did. Sorry H, m has one upped you and in my mind has seversal seats ahead of you to be one of the 144k. Keep trying though.[/quote]

That whole paragraph made zero sense, like literally, nothing in it made sense. It sounded like you were insulting me, but that, at this point, is just a guess. Do you not want to answer the question?

148

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
dmaddox:

You trying to get your hands dirty in here so that you can go back to the Kingdom Hall and say look what I did. Sorry H, m has one upped you and in my mind has seversal seats ahead of you to be one of the 144k. Keep trying though.[/quote]

That whole paragraph made zero sense, like literally, nothing in it made sense. It sounded like you were insulting me, but that, at this point, is just a guess. Do you not want to answer the question?

[/quote]
No.

149

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
dmaddox:

You trying to get your hands dirty in here so that you can go back to the Kingdom Hall and say look what I did. Sorry H, m has one upped you and in my mind has seversal seats ahead of you to be one of the 144k. Keep trying though.[/quote]

That whole paragraph made zero sense, like literally, nothing in it made sense. It sounded like you were insulting me, but that, at this point, is just a guess. Do you not want to answer the question?

[/quote]
No.[/quote]

That is awesome, thanks!

150

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
If you could please follow me on just 2 points of interest from these paragraphs, I would appreciate it.

  1. Who caused us to be in a sinful state?

  2. I will get to after this first one.

[/quote]

I’ll be your huckleberry . . .

I caused myself to be in a sinful state. Whew, that was rough - i need a break

151

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
dmaddox:

You trying to get your hands dirty in here so that you can go back to the Kingdom Hall and say look what I did. Sorry H, m has one upped you and in my mind has seversal seats ahead of you to be one of the 144k. Keep trying though.[/quote]

That whole paragraph made zero sense, like literally, nothing in it made sense. It sounded like you were insulting me, but that, at this point, is just a guess. Do you not want to answer the question?

[/quote]
No.[/quote]

That is awesome, thanks![/quote]

I do not like questions with hidden agendas, as yours clearly has.

152

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
If you could please follow me on just 2 points of interest from these paragraphs, I would appreciate it.

  1. Who caused us to be in a sinful state?

  2. I will get to after this first one.

[/quote]

I’ll be your huckleberry . . .

I caused myself to be in a sinful state. Whew, that was rough - i need a break[/quote]

Hmm, not the answer I was expecting. Why is it your fault?

153

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< I want the exact scripture reference that proves Satan was thrown out of heaven onto the Earth in 1914…I am pretty sure those exact words are not in the Bible any where…[/quote]
Neither is the word “Trinity” =][/quote]

I am not a biblical literalist, so this is no problem for me. It’s just a shortened way of saying the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one.

154

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
So it is more logical to sacrifice an angel to himslef so that he could correct sin? I would say the first is more logical.

I believe that God loves us so much he was willing to take the punishment of sin upon himself. Sending an angel, servant whatever the JWs call Jesus does not show Love, but shows that their Jehovah is not man enough to take the pain on himself.

My faith is that Jesus/God called us friends. John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. God is Love, God is our friend and not an angel. Faith, Hope, & Love but the greatest of these is Love. He does not say Works he says Love.[/quote]

Honestly, I don’t think either is very logical. If God is infinitely powerful & wise, why did he make the mistake in the first place? Wouldn’t that mean he isn’t perfect? And in correcting it, why would he require a human sacrifice? Couldn’t he have taken sin upon himself in a more “godly” way? (Such as speaking to everyone at once, explaining the mistake). But then again, God speaking to everyone at once has never occurred in recorded history, verifiable by multiple accounts without vested interests.

Just being honest.

155

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
dmaddox:

You trying to get your hands dirty in here so that you can go back to the Kingdom Hall and say look what I did. Sorry H, m has one upped you and in my mind has seversal seats ahead of you to be one of the 144k. Keep trying though.[/quote]

That whole paragraph made zero sense, like literally, nothing in it made sense. It sounded like you were insulting me, but that, at this point, is just a guess. Do you not want to answer the question?

[/quote]
No.[/quote]

That is awesome, thanks![/quote]

I do not like questions with hidden agendas, as yours clearly has.[/quote]

If you are afraid of me have a reasoning point with my line of questioning, then that is your right. Not everything is asked in one question. Some times things require reaching a common denominator, or common ground to establish a particular train of thought. An added benefit, it can more easily pinpoint logical disconnects in discussions, to help prevent them from degenerating into the textual equivalent of plugging your ears and screaming “la la la I’m not listening”.

156

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
So it is more logical to sacrifice an angel to himslef so that he could correct sin? I would say the first is more logical.

I believe that God loves us so much he was willing to take the punishment of sin upon himself. Sending an angel, servant whatever the JWs call Jesus does not show Love, but shows that their Jehovah is not man enough to take the pain on himself.

My faith is that Jesus/God called us friends. John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. God is Love, God is our friend and not an angel. Faith, Hope, & Love but the greatest of these is Love. He does not say Works he says Love.[/quote]

Honestly, I don’t think either is very logical. If God is infinitely powerful & wise, why did he make the mistake in the first place? Wouldn’t that mean he isn’t perfect? And in correcting it, why would he require a human sacrifice? Couldn’t he have taken sin upon himself in a more “godly” way? (Such as speaking to everyone at once, explaining the mistake). But then again, God speaking to everyone at once has never occurred in recorded history, verifiable by multiple accounts without vested interests.

Just being honest.
[/quote]
What mistake?

157

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
If you could please follow me on just 2 points of interest from these paragraphs, I would appreciate it.

  1. Who caused us to be in a sinful state?

  2. I will get to after this first one.

[/quote]

I’ll be your huckleberry . . .

I caused myself to be in a sinful state. Whew, that was rough - i need a break[/quote]

Hmm, not the answer I was expecting. Why is it your fault?[/quote]

Because I chose to sin. next?

158

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
If you could please follow me on just 2 points of interest from these paragraphs, I would appreciate it.

  1. Who caused us to be in a sinful state?

  2. I will get to after this first one.

[/quote]

I’ll be your huckleberry . . .

I caused myself to be in a sinful state. Whew, that was rough - i need a break[/quote]

Hmm, not the answer I was expecting. Why is it your fault?[/quote]

Because I chose to sin. next?[/quote]

Next? you want to move on to the next question? See, this is where we have a difference in beliefs. I would personally like to find out why you believe this. To understand another’s point of view. This is what threads like these are designed to be about, in my opinion.

I believe that we inherited sin, not that it was my fault. That is based in the Bible at Romans 5:12 - NIV
“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned”

159

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
dmaddox:

You trying to get your hands dirty in here so that you can go back to the Kingdom Hall and say look what I did. Sorry H, m has one upped you and in my mind has seversal seats ahead of you to be one of the 144k. Keep trying though.[/quote]

That whole paragraph made zero sense, like literally, nothing in it made sense. It sounded like you were insulting me, but that, at this point, is just a guess. Do you not want to answer the question?

[/quote]
No.[/quote]

That is awesome, thanks![/quote]

I do not like questions with hidden agendas, as yours clearly has.[/quote]

If you are afraid of me have a reasoning point with my line of questioning, then that is your right. Not everything is asked in one question. Some times things require reaching a common denominator, or common ground to establish a particular train of thought. An added benefit, it can more easily pinpoint logical disconnects in discussions, to help prevent them from degenerating into the textual equivalent of plugging your ears and screaming “la la la I’m not listening”.[/quote]

In fairness it is also a way of leading someone to a certain answer\conclusion that you want so you can establish your point with out allowing a differing view. Thus forcing that person to come to the same conclusion you have.

Not saying that is your motive, but I usually refuse to follow baited questions because of that simple fact.

160

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
So it is more logical to sacrifice an angel to himslef so that he could correct sin? I would say the first is more logical.

I believe that God loves us so much he was willing to take the punishment of sin upon himself. Sending an angel, servant whatever the JWs call Jesus does not show Love, but shows that their Jehovah is not man enough to take the pain on himself.

My faith is that Jesus/God called us friends. John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. God is Love, God is our friend and not an angel. Faith, Hope, & Love but the greatest of these is Love. He does not say Works he says Love.[/quote]

Honestly, I don’t think either is very logical. If God is infinitely powerful & wise, why did he make the mistake in the first place? Wouldn’t that mean he isn’t perfect? And in correcting it, why would he require a human sacrifice? Couldn’t he have taken sin upon himself in a more “godly” way? (Such as speaking to everyone at once, explaining the mistake). But then again, God speaking to everyone at once has never occurred in recorded history, verifiable by multiple accounts without vested interests.

Just being honest.
[/quote]
What mistake? [/quote]

It was to make up for the mistake of the creation of original sin and it being passed down from person to person. Since God created everything, he also created original sin. The fact that he had to come down in the first place to fix it means that it was a mistake.