[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Boy does this bring back memories. I’m not getting into all the technical exegetical facts here because I’m going to boldly say that I’ve probably spent more fruitless time with kingdom halls full of JW’s than everybody in this thread combined. I’ve had their own books, magazines and butchered evolving versions of the new world “translation” of the Bible, of which I once owned a VERY impressive collection going all the way back to original copies of Russel’s “Millenial Dawn” series from the 1880’s, laid out all over my couch and floor showing them the glaring utterly irreconcilable inconsistencies and false prohpecies from their own watchtower literature.
I kept volume 2 of the first printing of the blue cover millenial dawn series entitled “The Time is at Hand” which I’m holding in my hand reading his false prophecies of the end of the world in 1914.
That’s not even mentioning a couple thousand years of linguistic scholarship that pretty much concurred with itself and contradicted Fredrick Franz who turns out to be the brains behind the anonymous NWT translation committee. Even Rudolph Bultmann, that flaming ultra theological liberal, but nonetheless eminently competent New Testament scholar said John 1:1 indisputably says that Jesus was God. He didn’t necessarily believe that, but was honest in his exegesis. Hours and HOURS and it had the effect of firing a rubber band at an oak tree.
Jehovah’s Witnesses worship an idolatrous false god despite their 3 headed protestations concerning the unavoidable triune God of the actual Bible. This controversy was settled in the church councils of the 4th century during which Arius, the author of the JW error was soundly condemned as a heretic and the doctrine of one God in three persons was finally codified though it is clearly implied in the church fathers even earlier than that and is in fact the teaching of the accurately translated and interpreted Bible.
I learned my lesson. You cannot argue the Watchtower folks into the light. The more you argue the more resolve they develop right before your eyes. My message to them is “repent and believe the Gospel” If anybody’s really interested I think I still have an old tape of mine where I did some lessons on Watchtower history 20 plus years ago at the request of some friends. I could dig it up and transfer it into an mp3.[/quote]
Incredible Post. I would love a copy of that tape if you get a chance. I find it amazing how the JWs do not think they are the ones that Paul is writing about in the book of Colosians. I have been pointing this stuff out to them for 3 threads now. [Sarcasim]Of course our 2000 year old interpretations of the Bible from people that actually knew Jesus just does not match the JW intellect. [/quote]
Not even close to incredible. D Paul is talking about any group or persons that deviate from the teachings of the Bible. That is you my friend and the Trinity belief. A teaching that is the central doctrine to most Christians would be a clear and direct teaching not a teaching that is admitted to be unexplainable or beyond the comprehension of humans. That’s the excuse because the Trinity teaching is not taught in the Bible. What John said at John 20:31(NIV) is a clear teaching which states:
“31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
John wrote his gospel for what reason? So that people may know that Jesus is God in the flesh or that Jesus is God? No. So that the readers would know that he is God’s son - not God. When reader read that back when it was written would they have thought that a son was actually the father? No. They would have thought that Jesus was in a submissive position - that of a son to a father.
Another clear teaching is what Paul said at 1 Corinthians 11:3 (NIV) which states:
“Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”
When readers read that back when Paul wrote it would they have thought that man and woman were equal in headship? No, because it’s clear man is head of woman. Would they have thought that man is equal to Jesus? No because it say that the head of man is Christ. Would they have thought that Christ is equal to or God? No because it clearly states that God is the head of Christ. That is a Bible teaching.
D you keep saying that your beliefs are old and that they’ve been the main teaching for centuries. D, let me show you from the Bible who’s and what teachings would be the dominant teaching until the time of the end.
Mattew 13:25-30:
“25 The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left. 26 When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also. 27 So the slaves of the householder came up and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it come to have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ They said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, 'No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, YOU uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.”
Let me stop right here and explain what this means before I get to Jesus’ explanation about the illustration. That passage is saying that the enemy came in and oversowed weeds among the wheat. We all know what happens if you let weeds grow with anything else unrestrained over a period of time. The weeds will not only outnumber but overtime it will dominant whatever it’s growing with. So much so that if you allow them to grow together long enough if one were to look at the field they would only see weeds. This is exactly what the master did. He let the weeds grow unrestrained until the harvest.
Matthew 13:36-40:
“36 Then after dismissing the crowds he went into the house. And his disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: "The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things.”
So the illustration is saying that Jesus sows the sons of the kingdom represented by the wheat and while men are sleeping Satan sows his sons represented by weeds. At that point the sons of Satan could be removed but Jesus says don’t bother because there is a chance that removing the sons of Satan could remove the sons of the kingdom. So Jesus lets them grow together for a long period of time and the sons of satan and their teachings grow with, outnumber and dominant the Sons of the kingdom until the conclusion of the system of things and then Jesus has the two groups separated.
This is exactly what happened. The men who are sleeping are the apostles who fell asleep in death(1 Corinthians 15:21) who have been able to keep the false teachings from entering into the Christian congregation. With the death of the last apostle John in 98 C.E. false teachings quickly enter into the Christian congregation. One such person was Justin Martyr who started to borrow concepts from ancient philosophers in order to explain the christian beliefs. He reasoned that this would make the teachings more accepted by the educated people of the Roman Empire. He and other like minded Christians believed that the contribution of philosophy and mythology to Christianity made this form of religion more universal. This form of Christianity became very successful in gaining converts. However, one myth led to the creation of others and produced what is now commonly believed to be Christian doctrine. Trinity, immortalility of the soul, hellfire teaching, Mary worship, use of images and icons in worship were not original Christian teachings. They were eventually sown in as weeds and became the dominant teachings or doctrine for Christians.
The beliefs and teachings of the sons of Satan have been the main Christian teachings for almost 2000 years. The illustrations says that the separating work would not begin until the conclusion of the system of things and he was going to have two groups: the weeds and the wheat. Once they are in two groups then the teachings would be distinguishable. The weeds teachings would not be found in the Bible and based on the philosophy of men which is why you can’t explicitly find the trinity teaching in the Bible or the hell fire teaching. However, the wheats teachings would be clearly in the Bible based on the teachings of the original christian congregation formed after Jesus went to heaven and they would be clearly different from the weeds teachings. Dmaddox, the conclusion of the system of things has been going on since 1914 and our teachings are clearly different from your teachings and they are clearly in the Bible.