Trinity - Bible Teaching or Doctrine of Man

honest_lifter · May 25, 2010, 9:44pm

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
honest_lifter wrote:
BBriere wrote:
Jesus says specifically “I and the Father are one” and “The Father is in me and I in the Father.” It would be very hard to separate the two if Jesus was one with the Father.

Yes! it would be hard to separate Jesus and God if they were “one” in flesh.

Please notice a similar use of the phrasing, and notice the way Jesus says it:

John 17:11 (NIV

“I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.”

On a practical point, how could someone ‘come’ to someone else if they were the same person?

Also, notice the end of the verse where Jesus prays that his disciples become ‘one’ just like Jesus and His Father are ‘one’.

not to nit pick, but I don’t know of many trinitarians that would attribute this verse to Jesus saying He and the Father are “one” flesh, they would attribute them to being one in essence.

You mean won’t use the verse I used? Or the verse BBriere used?[/quote]

[quote]No trinitarian that I know of attributes the God head to having flesh./quote]

So may I ask what was Jesus when he came to the earth? I know D says that he is God, and no one disagreed. However, that would make him flesh, no?
[/quote]

You can ask that, but I think you have a misconception of the doctrine of the trinity.
Here is the problem the doctrine of the trinity states that Christ in his person is fully human and fully Divine. The human side and the divine side though never mix.

Now to answer my question of the law of non contradiction, The trinity is God is one in essence, but three in person. So while Christ might be God in Flesh, that does not mean the flesh is part of the essence of God. So when Jesus says the Father and I are one. He is stating that the essence of God is one, not the Son personage in flesh is one with the essence.

Short and dirty answer, but I have to step away.[/quote]

I know you have to leave, so if anyone wants to supply scriptural support for this point. I know this goes opposite with what Dmaddox says. He says that the flesh went to heaven.

dmaddox · May 25, 2010, 9:45pm

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

His Son, Jesus Christ, who is fully man and fully God. In another Thread I put down the reference to Revelation 5. The elders were praising the one who sits on the throne. When they turned around it was the Lamb who was slain. There is more proof that Jesus is the one who sits on the Throne which makes him God. God gave up his throne in Heaven so that he could become sin for us and bring us back into fellowship with himself. Praise be to God.[/quote]

2 questions:

How can God sit at his own right side?
How did God become sin?

Scriptural references please.[/quote]

Are you truely asking for this information or are you trying spin the translation and interpretation?

honest_lifter · May 25, 2010, 9:46pm

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Well, using myself as an example:

I’m an a son, an uncle, and a friend.

Isn’t that a trinity?[/quote]

I discussed the use of those titles about 5 posts back.

honest_lifter · May 25, 2010, 9:47pm

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

His Son, Jesus Christ, who is fully man and fully God. In another Thread I put down the reference to Revelation 5. The elders were praising the one who sits on the throne. When they turned around it was the Lamb who was slain. There is more proof that Jesus is the one who sits on the Throne which makes him God. God gave up his throne in Heaven so that he could become sin for us and bring us back into fellowship with himself. Praise be to God.[/quote]

2 questions:

How can God sit at his own right side?
How did God become sin?

Scriptural references please.[/quote]

Are you truely asking for this information or are you trying spin the translation and interpretation?[/quote]

The second one I really do want scriptural support for. The first one, I just want you to try and explain that, because that makes zero sense.

BackInAction · May 25, 2010, 9:48pm

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Well, using myself as an example:

I’m an a son, an uncle, and a friend.

Isn’t that a trinity?[/quote]

I discussed the use of those titles about 5 posts back.[/quote]

Sorry, yes you’re correct.

If this is indeed true and their is no trinity, where did it come from?

And where does it explicitly say Jesus was an Angel?

IrishSteel · May 25, 2010, 9:52pm

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
I always thought the Catholics were good at comparing the Trinity to a clover. You have three distinct leaves on a clover, but they are all part of the clover. You cannot remove one leaf and still have a full clover. No leaf is superior to the others.[/quote]

3 manifestations of one God. For instance, I am a father, a husband, an asshole, and an employee. I am always a dad, I am always a husband, I am always an asshole, and hopefull I will stay an employee. I am 4 manifestations of one pat. God is always the creator, always the Son that relates to us, and always the Holy Spirit who compels us.
Yes this sounds complicated to us, but look at the 4 manifestations of pat…Now imagine I created dogs and had to related to them, so I manifested myself as a dog and had to explain how I can be all those things as a human and still be a dog. That’s similar to God becoming human and trying to explain his reality to us when it doesn’t make sense in our contexts.[/quote]

Those are titles, Pat. Add one more to that, you are a Son, right? Your ‘manifestations’ that you gave were all in relation to something else. You are a father to your children, you are a husband to your wife and you are an employee to your company. You would also be a son to your father. These titles intrinsically state that there is others directly involved.[/quote]

Let me butt into this discussion very quickly, any comparison between a human and his roles as an example of the trinity will fall short because we do not have the capacity for multiple personifications of our essence. That is the problem with all analogies - taken to an extreme they all have issues because nothing is perfect match for God.

We can and will always be a single person with a single essence, whereas God (also with a single essence) has the power to manifest himself in three distinct personifications of that essence - as the Holy Father, as the humananity-clad Son and the Holy Spirit (our divine companion). One divine essence - three divine personifications of that essence.

The term trinity appears nowhere in scripture and is a term of human invention to describe this amazing Divine attribute. - The Bible states categorically that there is one God, but demonstrates that this one God has made himself know to us in three distinct manifestations. Each manifestation (personification) is clearly identified as God in the Scripture, but no additional explanation of this trait is provided.

So there you have it. I can biblically prove there is one God, that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God and that they are One - and that’s the end of it. I cannot explain it anymore than I could explain how his omnipotence or eternality works . … . it just is.

Moral of the story? We know there 1 God with 3 distinct personification manifested to us.

haney1 · May 25, 2010, 9:56pm

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

I know you have to leave, so if anyone wants to supply scriptural support for this point. I know this goes opposite with what Dmaddox says. He says that the flesh went to heaven. [/quote]

right now I am doing it from a rational point of view. Trinitarians must affirm that
God is one in A, and three in B. Other wise we violate the law of non contradiction.

So we say God is one in essence, but three in person.

As for claim on Jesus being fully human and fully divine but the two never intermingling. That Comes from the council of chelsadon. Which takes into account a whole group of thoughts on existing trinity. Which I am currently working on reviewing. So don’t expect concrete answers on it from me for a while.

with that I will be away for a while tonight.

BackInAction · May 25, 2010, 9:59pm

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
We can and will always be a single person with a single essence, whereas God (also with a single essence) has the power to manifest himself in three distinct personifications of that essence - as the Holy Father, as the humananity-clad Son and the Holy Spirit (our divine companion). [/quote]

Can he do these at the same time? The reason I ask is because when Jesus was dying on the cross, didn’t he yell out to God something like “Father, they know not what they do”. If he can only manifest himself as one of those things at once, he wouldn’t have done this.

honest_lifter · May 25, 2010, 10:06pm

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
I always thought the Catholics were good at comparing the Trinity to a clover. You have three distinct leaves on a clover, but they are all part of the clover. You cannot remove one leaf and still have a full clover. No leaf is superior to the others.[/quote]

3 manifestations of one God. For instance, I am a father, a husband, an asshole, and an employee. I am always a dad, I am always a husband, I am always an asshole, and hopefull I will stay an employee. I am 4 manifestations of one pat. God is always the creator, always the Son that relates to us, and always the Holy Spirit who compels us.
Yes this sounds complicated to us, but look at the 4 manifestations of pat…Now imagine I created dogs and had to related to them, so I manifested myself as a dog and had to explain how I can be all those things as a human and still be a dog. That’s similar to God becoming human and trying to explain his reality to us when it doesn’t make sense in our contexts.[/quote]

Those are titles, Pat. Add one more to that, you are a Son, right? Your ‘manifestations’ that you gave were all in relation to something else. You are a father to your children, you are a husband to your wife and you are an employee to your company. You would also be a son to your father. These titles intrinsically state that there is others directly involved.[/quote]

Let me butt into this discussion very quickly, any comparison between a human and his roles as an example of the trinity will fall short because we do not have the capacity for multiple personifications of our essence. That is the problem with all analogies - taken to an extreme they all have issues because nothing is perfect match for God.

We can and will always be a single person with a single essence, whereas God (also with a single essence) has the power to manifest himself in three distinct personifications of that essence - as the Holy Father, as the humananity-clad Son and the Holy Spirit (our divine companion). One divine essence - three divine personifications of that essence.

The term trinity appears nowhere in scripture and is a term of human invention to describe this amazing Divine attribute. - The Bible states categorically that there is one God, but demonstrates that this one God has made himself know to us in three distinct manifestations. Each manifestation (personification) is clearly identified as God in the Scripture, but no additional explanation of this trait is provided.

So there you have it. I can biblically prove there is one God, that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God and that they are One - and that’s the end of it. I cannot explain it anymore than I could explain how his omnipotence or eternality works . … . it just is.

Moral of the story? We know there 1 God with 3 distinct personification manifested to us.[/quote]

We are told to take in knowledge of God and His Son Jesus Christ. - John 17:3

2 questions: (I am asking all this because that is what this thread is dedicated to)

Why doesn’t it mention taking in knowledge of only God, if Jesus is God?
Why isn’t the Holy Spirit mentioned as something that we need to take in knowledge about?

Bonus Question:

How can we take in knowledge of something that human minds can’t grasp?

honest_lifter · May 25, 2010, 10:08pm

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
We can and will always be a single person with a single essence, whereas God (also with a single essence) has the power to manifest himself in three distinct personifications of that essence - as the Holy Father, as the humananity-clad Son and the Holy Spirit (our divine companion). [/quote]

Can he do these at the same time? The reason I ask is because when Jesus was dying on the cross, didn’t he yell out to God something like “Father, they know not what they do”. If he can only manifest himself as one of those things at once, he wouldn’t have done this.
[/quote]

Back in Action, now you are thinking logically! Not only that, but earlier in the day, He also prayed for not his will but His fathers to take place.

2 points for contradiction:

He prayed to His Father, so that would indicate individuality.
He prayed that His Father’s will take place, not his own.

honest_lifter · May 25, 2010, 10:16pm

Also, someone please explain to me the meaning of ‘only-begotton’.

We got away from that question (as well as many others).

To BackinAction, your question about the origin of the trinity will be addressed, at least by me.

To IrishSteel, your points of the divinity of Jesus will be addressed as well, at least by me.

IrishSteel · May 25, 2010, 10:21pm

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
We can and will always be a single person with a single essence, whereas God (also with a single essence) has the power to manifest himself in three distinct personifications of that essence - as the Holy Father, as the humananity-clad Son and the Holy Spirit (our divine companion). [/quote]

Can he do these at the same time? The reason I ask is because when Jesus was dying on the cross, didn’t he yell out to God something like “Father, they know not what they do”. If he can only manifest himself as one of those things at once, he wouldn’t have done this.
[/quote]

Great question BIA - yes all three were demonstrated at once - specifically at his baptism by John the Baptizer in the river Jordan. The Father spoke from Heaven, The Son was being baptized and The Holy Spirit descended upon him in the form of a dove. All Three Divine, All Three Manifested at the same time

BackInAction · May 25, 2010, 10:23pm

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
We can and will always be a single person with a single essence, whereas God (also with a single essence) has the power to manifest himself in three distinct personifications of that essence - as the Holy Father, as the humananity-clad Son and the Holy Spirit (our divine companion). [/quote]

Can he do these at the same time? The reason I ask is because when Jesus was dying on the cross, didn’t he yell out to God something like “Father, they know not what they do”. If he can only manifest himself as one of those things at once, he wouldn’t have done this.
[/quote]

Back in Action, now you are thinking logically! Not only that, but earlier in the day, He also prayed for not his will but His fathers to take place.

2 points for contradiction:

He prayed to His Father, so that would indicate individuality.
He prayed that His Father’s will take place, not his own.[/quote]

Very interesting. I understand better now when you were talking about with the titles. Jesus and God were separate beings (at least when he was being killed). But now part of me is saying, “if God exists, wouldn’t he be capable of being in two places at once”. Kinda like a divine version of Dr. Manhattan

But then again, why would he pray to himself…

This is over my head. I have not immersed myself in enough Biblical scripture to argue one way or another so I’ll respectfully bow out.

IrishSteel · May 25, 2010, 10:31pm

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
We are told to take in knowledge of God and His Son Jesus Christ. - John 17:3

2 questions: (I am asking all this because that is what this thread is dedicated to)

Why doesn’t it mention taking in knowledge of only God, if Jesus is God?
Why isn’t the Holy Spirit mentioned as something that we need to take in knowledge about?

Bonus Question:

How can we take in knowledge of something that human minds can’t grasp?[/quote]

The passage states: “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” - no problem with us knowing two of the personifications of the Divine. Not sure what you are missing here?
Because the Holy Spirit was going to be sent to dwell in us and guide us into all truth - we would if we knew the Father and the Son naturally come to know the Holy Spirit as part of his ministry to us - if His praye rof John 17 was answered and we became a believer then his promise of John 14:26 will comes to pass. We don’t need to take in knowledge of the HS, because the HS will provide knowledge to us."

Bonues Answer - we cannot comprehend all, but that does not mean we cannot comprehend some.

IrishSteel · May 25, 2010, 10:52pm

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Back in Action, now you are thinking logically! Not only that, but earlier in the day, He also prayed for not his will but His fathers to take place.

2 points for contradiction:

He prayed to His Father, so that would indicate individuality.
He prayed that His Father’s will take place, not his own.[/quote]
No contradiction in the two personifications of the divine communicating between themselves. Individuality pesonified, but still of one Divine essence.
Same as the first . . .

still not sure what part of 1 Divine Essence - Three Divine Personifications you’re missing.

The Biblical facts are these:
There is only One God.
The Father is God, the Son is God and the HS is God.

Which leads to this conclusion:
If the Father, the Son and the HS are God and there is only One God, then the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One God.

By what power or method this is accomplished remains beyond our comprehension just as God’s ability to exist outside of time remains beyond our comprehension, just as God’s ability to be omnipresent remains beyond our comprehension, just as God’s ability to be omniscient remains beyond our comprehension . . .

My best analogy (still weak though) is a ecto-plasmic blob being who can split off portions of himself into mini-blobs. These mini-blobs have a mind and will of their own and all his attributes as a blob, but they can act independently. They can communicate with each other and he reabsorb those mini-blobs at will. One essence - multiple personifications. My mind can comprehend the idea - but not the power to accomplish it.

You guys are tripping up over the methodolgy by which God accomplishes this, when in reality, we don’t understand how God accomplishes any of his attributes, that power is beyond our comprehension - we simply accept what He has revealed of Himself. the Marriage of faith and reason

honest_lifter · May 25, 2010, 11:09pm

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Back in Action, now you are thinking logically! Not only that, but earlier in the day, He also prayed for not his will but His fathers to take place.

2 points for contradiction:

He prayed to His Father, so that would indicate individuality.
He prayed that His Father’s will take place, not his own.[/quote]
No contradiction in the two personifications of the divine communicating between themselves. Individuality pesonified, but still of one Divine essence.
Same as the first . . .

still not sure what part of 1 Divine Essence - Three Divine Personifications you’re missing.

[b][i]The Biblical facts are these:
There is only One God.
The Father is God, the Son is God and the HS is God.

Which leads to this conclusion:
If the Father, the Son and the HS are God and there is only One God, then the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One God.[/b][/i]

By what power or method this is accomplished remains beyond our comprehension just as God’s ability to exist outside of time remains beyond our comprehension, just as God’s ability to be omnipresent remains beyond our comprehension, just as God’s ability to be omniscient remains beyond our comprehension . . .

My best analogy (still weak though) is a ecto-plasmic blob being who can split off portions of himself into mini-blobs. These mini-blobs have a mind and will of their own and all his attributes as a blob, but they can act independently. They can communicate with each other and he reabsorb those mini-blobs at will. One essence - multiple personifications. My mind can comprehend the idea - but not the power to accomplish it.

You guys are tripping up over the methodolgy by which God accomplishes this, when in reality, we don’t understand how God accomplishes any of his attributes, that power is beyond our comprehension - we simply accept what He has revealed of Himself. the Marriage of faith and reason[/quote]

Can you please offer scriptural support for the bolded portion so that I can do some research.

dmaddox · May 25, 2010, 11:37pm

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

His Son, Jesus Christ, who is fully man and fully God. In another Thread I put down the reference to Revelation 5. The elders were praising the one who sits on the throne. When they turned around it was the Lamb who was slain. There is more proof that Jesus is the one who sits on the Throne which makes him God. God gave up his throne in Heaven so that he could become sin for us and bring us back into fellowship with himself. Praise be to God.[/quote]

2 questions:

How can God sit at his own right side?
How did God become sin?

Scriptural references please.[/quote]

Are you truely asking for this information or are you trying spin the translation and interpretation?[/quote]

The second one I really do want scriptural support for. The first one, I just want you to try and explain that, because that makes zero sense.

[/quote]

Question 1) He is God can he not do whatever he wants to do?
Question 2) 2 Cor 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

honest_lifter · May 25, 2010, 11:50pm

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

His Son, Jesus Christ, who is fully man and fully God. In another Thread I put down the reference to Revelation 5. The elders were praising the one who sits on the throne. When they turned around it was the Lamb who was slain. There is more proof that Jesus is the one who sits on the Throne which makes him God. God gave up his throne in Heaven so that he could become sin for us and bring us back into fellowship with himself. Praise be to God.[/quote]

2 questions:

How can God sit at his own right side?
How did God become sin?

Scriptural references please.[/quote]

Are you truely asking for this information or are you trying spin the translation and interpretation?[/quote]

The second one I really do want scriptural support for. The first one, I just want you to try and explain that, because that makes zero sense.

[/quote]

Question 1) He is God can he not do whatever he wants to do?
Question 2) 2 Cor 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.[/quote]

Rebuttal 1) How would he do it? Meaning, how can someone sit beside themselves, spirit or flesh?
Rubuttal 2) If you have another verse to explain how he became sinful, please use it. the NIV translation here, doesn’t say what is really being said. (don’t get defensive, just use another scripture if you have one. If you don’t, I will explain why this is a bad interpretation)

mse2us · May 26, 2010, 12:34am

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
We are told to take in knowledge of God and His Son Jesus Christ. - John 17:3

2 questions: (I am asking all this because that is what this thread is dedicated to)

Why doesn’t it mention taking in knowledge of only God, if Jesus is God?
Why isn’t the Holy Spirit mentioned as something that we need to take in knowledge about?

Bonus Question:

How can we take in knowledge of something that human minds can’t grasp?[/quote]

The passage states: “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” - no problem with us knowing two of the personifications of the Divine. Not sure what you are missing here?
Because the Holy Spirit was going to be sent to dwell in us and guide us into all truth - we would if we knew the Father and the Son naturally come to know the Holy Spirit as part of his ministry to us - if His praye rof John 17 was answered and we became a believer then his promise of John 14:26 will comes to pass. We don’t need to take in knowledge of the HS, because the HS will provide knowledge to us."

Bonues Answer - we cannot comprehend all, but that does not mean we cannot comprehend some.[/quote]
Oh no another trinity thread!

I’ve quoted literally dozens of scriptures to show that God and Jesus is not the same spirit being. There are specific scriptures that specifically address God and Jesus relationship and the passages are clear void of any ambiguity. People don’t understand that yes Jesus is divine which means heavenly because he is from heaven. So denying that he is God does not deny his divine nature. There is no scripture in the Bible that explains the trinity nor are there any scriptures that specifically state God and Jesus are the same. There are several scriptures that when read one may need to do further investigation to see exactly what is meant. John 10:33 when Jesus said “I and the father are one.” This is a common scripture that people use to prove the trinity but it does not. The one Jesus is talking about is explained at John 17:20-24 (NIV):
“22 My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.”

Those verses are the explanation for what it means to be one and what Jesus meant when he said I and the father are one.

Another scripture that people use to prove the trinity is John 14:8-9 when Jesus said “he who has seen me has seen the father.” Hebrews 1:1-3 explains what this means:
"1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 39The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Can you see how this passage explains how one who has seen Jesus it’s like they’ve seen God and how this scripture distinguishes between Jesus and God stating that Jesus is in a lesser position? When you make a copy of something through a copier how many there? There are two - the original and the copy. When one uses the term splitting image in regards to a son who looks and acts just like his father does that mean they are the same or equal? No. That just means he looks and acts like his father so much so that he is the image or of his father.
That is why Jesus made that statement at John 14:8-9. Jesus is in such unity with his father that he acts exactly like his Father so that they can be called one or the exact representation of his Father.

There are literally dozens of scriptures that distinguish between God and Jesus.

I’ll start in the Hebrew or OT.

Daniel 7:13,14:
“13 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”

This is a prophecy about God making Jesus king over his Kingdom. The Ancient of Days is God and the son of man is Jesus. Can you see that he is given the kingship and authority and power? Can you also see that they are two different beings.

Isaiah 9:6(NIV) is a prophecy about Jesus and notice the titles he is given.
“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.”

Can you see the titles he is given? He is called Mighty God but yet his power and authority is that of a prince. God Almighty would never be given the title of Prince. Can you see that he sits on Davids throne and rules over the kingdom that David’s kingdom represented? If you look at Ezekiel 21:26,27 King Zedekiah is called a prince even though he is a king of Israel.
How can he be called a Prince yet be a king? It’s because as a descendant of David he sat on God’s thrown as a representative of God himself. When these kings were in this position they were still subject to God which is why king Zedekiah is called a prince. Put Daniel 7:12,13 and Isaiah 9:6,7 together. You will see that Jesus approaches God and God makes him king and gives him power and authority over King David’s vacant thrown and kingdom. David thrown ruled over God’s people on earth and that is exactly what God’s kingdom will do with Jesus as the king. Like king Zedekiah who was called a prince meaning he was under God’s authority Jesus is called a prince and will be under God’s authority. Jesus is called a Mighty God because he is a mighty spirit being.

If anyone wants know why Thomas called Jesus “My God” at John 20:28 see the above.

Those verses I used were before Jesus came to earth. Now when I use scriptures when Jesus was on earth that clearly show that Jesus is in subjection to God most people like to say that Jesus is talking like this because he is being humble. They also imply that he is lying when he makes statements at Matthew 20:22-23 that it does not belong to him to grant who will sit on his right and left in his Kingdom but only God can make that decision. When people use that line of reasoning I say okay I’ll use verse that were written after Jesus went to heaven to show that Jesus and God are not the same.

These are scriptures that specifically address God and Jesus relationship and clearly state who has more authority. So when God inspired Paul to write these verses he wanted to let the readers know his relationship with Jesus and who has more authority.

1 Corinthians 11:3 (NIV): states:
“Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”

When God inspired Paul to write that verse, God wanted the Corinth congregation and the readers to realize the authority between a man and woman, Jesus and man and God and Jesus.
This is not Jesus being humble because Jesus had been in heaven for about 22 years and this is not Jesus making the statement. Clear and direct.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 is the most clear and direct passage in the Bible concerning God and Jesus relationship. No scripture is as clear as this passage and no scripture is more powerful concerning God and Jesus’ relationship. None.
"Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Can you see how Jesus hands the kingdom back to his father who gave him the kingdom at
Daniel 7:12,13? Can you see how he is in a princely position as stated in Isaiah 9:6,7?

Can you see how those scriptures are clear and direct and they were written to specifically state God’s authority over Jesus?

dmaddox · May 26, 2010, 1:22am

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
We are told to take in knowledge of God and His Son Jesus Christ. - John 17:3

2 questions: (I am asking all this because that is what this thread is dedicated to)

Why doesn’t it mention taking in knowledge of only God, if Jesus is God?
Why isn’t the Holy Spirit mentioned as something that we need to take in knowledge about?

Bonus Question:

How can we take in knowledge of something that human minds can’t grasp?[/quote]

The passage states: “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” - no problem with us knowing two of the personifications of the Divine. Not sure what you are missing here?
Because the Holy Spirit was going to be sent to dwell in us and guide us into all truth - we would if we knew the Father and the Son naturally come to know the Holy Spirit as part of his ministry to us - if His praye rof John 17 was answered and we became a believer then his promise of John 14:26 will comes to pass. We don’t need to take in knowledge of the HS, because the HS will provide knowledge to us."