Lol @ Tirib and his sophistry.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Lol @ Tirib and his sophistry.[/quote]
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Give me an example of something I don’t understand. “Nothing” is a rather large brush. >>>[/quote]I tried. It was like talkin to a modern American catholic =]
[quote]pat wrote:
And if you are ever in Atlanta, let me know, we shall break bread and discuss stuff.[/quote]I accept as well. You may be and I won’t be surprised how little we have in common theologically, but you would be surely disabused of your erroneous notion of my hatred for you. I think even Chris has few rays shining through there. I’ll take ya out to Pittypat’s Porch. Yes, I’ve been to Atlanta.
[/quote]
You tried my ass. All you said was the whole institution was corrupt and false because the Vatican is elaborate and part of the funding came from a corrupt bishop in Germany.
Further, you only focused the word anathema taking it to mean cursed, when it was to be meant as excommunicated as in you are out of communication with the church if you take exception to the dogmas… This shouldn’t surprise you or upset anyone unless you are catholic. I am in a state of excommunication with most protestant churches, or any other faith for that matter. Your dogma’s mean nothing to me. For instance, faith alone salvation. Being “saved”, etc.
You hate my faith and the hate is based on falsehoods. I take it personally, but so do you.[/quote]So Pittypat’s Porch then?
EDIT: I just know I’m gonna be sorry for this.
Ephesians 2:1-10 (ESV which you say you like)
[quote]2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedienceâ?? 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [1] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christâ??by grace you have been savedâ?? 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. >>>[/quote]Do you see anything like everybody being dead enemies of God until He raised them by grace through faith alone whereby they are saved and subsequently walk in good works that HE prepared beforehand here? Any of that here at all? You will, until you run off to some RCC site for the blasphemous butchery of this most glorious beautiful passage that you will return here with.
I am born of the most high God by His eternal decree. I was dead and He raised me together with Christ. How dare you declare that mighty miraculous work of resurrection subject to failure. You do what you want pal. I will continue to lay on my face at His feet drinking deeply of His unsearchable grace.
1 John 5:13, [quote]<<< “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” >>>[/quote] I KNOW. You can too. It’s a monstrous tragedy how that abominable “church” strings you along with all it sacerdotal God grieving sophistry. Ohhhh , how they’re gonna pay.
If you really care at all. I might even take a chance and share with you the hermeneutic principles I use in relating the numerous passages like this one to some others that might appear to the untutored mind to mitigate the breathtaking truths contained herein.[/quote]
What’s that got to do with anything? If you think either of those passages are dispelled by the church your on crack…Actually I’d like to see it, please find where the church disagrees with this passage. If you understood it, then you would know that all these are tied together. Faith does good works, good works requires faith, and all of it means nothing with out love.
Scriptural reference:
James 1:22-25
1 Cor 13:1-13
Their going to pay? For what, exactly?
[quote]forbes wrote:
Indeed I will and I wanted to start off by saying thank you for your kind and sincere tone. These debates can get very hot with temper, so it is a delight to see a calm and respectful attitude.
[quote]
Now let’s take a look at what Jesus came down to earth to do. He came down here to die for our sins. We know that God cannot die, and yet if Jesus was God, he would have had to die to do anything for our sins. Remember, Jesus was there to be the repayment for what Adam gave up in the garden of Eden. Adam was a perfect man that sinned, and therefore a perfect man had to repay that sin. This is based off the principle of Jehovah’s perfect justice. So, if Jesus were God, he would not physically have the ability to die. The scriptures tell us that.[/quote]
I would like to point out that Jesus was fully God and fully man. The human body of Jesus was able to perish, but not the divine spirit of God the Son who dwelt in him. I like to think of it like a glass about to be filled with your beverage of choice, lets say wine. The glass is the body of Jesus, and the wine is God the Son. When you pour the wine into the glass, they have come together, but they are still distinguished as they literally do not fuse into a new substance. The glass still remains glass and the wine still remains wine. Now if I drop that glass of wine, its obvious the glass breaks and shatters, but the wine remains unaffected. It will spill, but it will not “break”. Likewise, the human body of Christ, which WAS created, was indwelt by God the Son. His human body was able to perish, but not his divine nature. Do you understand that or can I clarify some more? Just let me know.
[quote]
With that in mind, take a look at what Phil 2:6 says:
“who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped”
This scripture has been brought up before, but look at it reflecting on how it fit with the above paragraph. Remember, the entire Bible has to harmonize with itself.[/quote]
This scripture is talking about Jesus’ existance as God since eternity (hence the past tense of “existed”). It says also that though he existed as God, it was not something to be grasped. Other translations read this as “did not regard equality with God a thing to be held on to”. Though Jesus has always existed as God, he was willing to not grasp on to it and instead empty himself in the form of a man. Now since God cannot get rid of his nature, this simply means that he did not rely on his abilities amongst other attributes of God while he was ministering on earth.
AND John 5:18 says:
“This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.”
[quote]forbes wrote:
Indeed I will and I wanted to start off by saying thank you for your kind and sincere tone. These debates can get very hot with temper, so it is a delight to see a calm and respectful attitude.
[quote]
Now let’s take a look at what Jesus came down to earth to do. He came down here to die for our sins. We know that God cannot die, and yet if Jesus was God, he would have had to die to do anything for our sins. Remember, Jesus was there to be the repayment for what Adam gave up in the garden of Eden. Adam was a perfect man that sinned, and therefore a perfect man had to repay that sin. This is based off the principle of Jehovah’s perfect justice. So, if Jesus were God, he would not physically have the ability to die. The scriptures tell us that.[/quote]
I would like to point out that Jesus was fully God and fully man. The human body of Jesus was able to perish, but not the divine spirit of God the Son who dwelt in him. I like to think of it like a glass about to be filled with your beverage of choice, lets say wine. The glass is the body of Jesus, and the wine is God the Son. When you pour the wine into the glass, they have come together, but they are still distinguished as they literally do not fuse into a new substance. The glass still remains glass and the wine still remains wine. Now if I drop that glass of wine, its obvious the glass breaks and shatters, but the wine remains unaffected. It will spill, but it will not “break”. Likewise, the human body of Christ, which WAS created, was indwelt by God the Son. His human body was able to perish, but not his divine nature. Do you understand that or can I clarify some more? Just let me know.
[quote]
With that in mind, take a look at what Phil 2:6 says:
“who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped”
This scripture has been brought up before, but look at it reflecting on how it fit with the above paragraph. Remember, the entire Bible has to harmonize with itself.[/quote]
This scripture is talking about Jesus’ existance as God since eternity (hence the past tense of “existed”). It says also that though he existed as God, it was not something to be grasped. Other translations read this as “did not regard equality with God a thing to be held on to”. Though Jesus has always existed as God, he was willing to not grasp on to it and instead empty himself in the form of a man. Now since God cannot get rid of his nature, this simply means that he did not rely on his abilities amongst other attributes of God while he was ministering on earth.
I would really love to try and understand this, but this seems like more opinion than based on the Bible. Would you have scriptures to back up these points?
[quote]pat wrote:
AND John 5:18 says:
“This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.”
[/quote]
I will be getting back to this. However, how would you reconcile this with John 14:28, where Jesus himself says that the father is greater than he is.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
AND John 5:18 says:
“This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.”
[/quote]
I will be getting back to this. However, how would you reconcile this with John 14:28, where Jesus himself says that the father is greater than he is.[/quote]
Because the Son came from the Father, but they are part of the one Godhead. All are equal in their divinity, as there is only one God.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Give me an example of something I don’t understand. “Nothing” is a rather large brush. >>>[/quote]I tried. It was like talkin to a modern American catholic =]
[quote]pat wrote:
And if you are ever in Atlanta, let me know, we shall break bread and discuss stuff.[/quote]I accept as well. You may be and I won’t be surprised how little we have in common theologically, but you would be surely disabused of your erroneous notion of my hatred for you. I think even Chris has few rays shining through there. I’ll take ya out to Pittypat’s Porch. Yes, I’ve been to Atlanta.
[/quote]
You tried my ass. All you said was the whole institution was corrupt and false because the Vatican is elaborate and part of the funding came from a corrupt bishop in Germany.
Further, you only focused the word anathema taking it to mean cursed, when it was to be meant as excommunicated as in you are out of communication with the church if you take exception to the dogmas… This shouldn’t surprise you or upset anyone unless you are catholic. I am in a state of excommunication with most protestant churches, or any other faith for that matter. Your dogma’s mean nothing to me. For instance, faith alone salvation. Being “saved”, etc.
You hate my faith and the hate is based on falsehoods. I take it personally, but so do you.[/quote]So Pittypat’s Porch then?
EDIT: I just know I’m gonna be sorry for this.
Ephesians 2:1-10 (ESV which you say you like)
[quote]2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience�¢?? 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [1] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ�¢??by grace you have been saved�¢?? 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. >>>[/quote]Do you see anything like everybody being dead enemies of God until He raised them by grace through faith alone whereby they are saved and subsequently walk in good works that HE prepared beforehand here? Any of that here at all? You will, until you run off to some RCC site for the blasphemous butchery of this most glorious beautiful passage that you will return here with.
I am born of the most high God by His eternal decree. I was dead and He raised me together with Christ. How dare you declare that mighty miraculous work of resurrection subject to failure. You do what you want pal. I will continue to lay on my face at His feet drinking deeply of His unsearchable grace.
1 John 5:13, [quote]<<< “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” >>>[/quote] I KNOW. You can too. It’s a monstrous tragedy how that abominable “church” strings you along with all it sacerdotal God grieving sophistry. Ohhhh , how they’re gonna pay.
If you really care at all. I might even take a chance and share with you the hermeneutic principles I use in relating the numerous passages like this one to some others that might appear to the untutored mind to mitigate the breathtaking truths contained herein.[/quote]
What’s that got to do with anything? If you think either of those passages are dispelled by the church your on crack…Actually I’d like to see it, please find where the church disagrees with this passage. If you understood it, then you would know that all these are tied together. Faith does good works, good works requires faith, and all of it means nothing with out love.
Scriptural reference:
James 1:22-25
1 Cor 13:1-13
Their going to pay? For what, exactly? [/quote]You have a weird way of stating things Pat, by which I actually mean no insult, but this is a bit better than I expected. You did miss most of my point, but I’ll try n answer further when I get a chance. Here’s some clues for now.
Enemy means… enemy. You know, like one set against?
Dead means dead.
By nature means what you are.
Made alive means like resurrected.
Grace, saved, faith, NOT OF WORKS.
“YOU MAY KNOW” means you may have certain knnowledge.
Eternal life? Go ahead n guess.
See, dead people can’t believe. They can’t do anything except be dead unless first made alive. That’s why Paul, after declaring everybody’s deadness also proclaims the amazing grace of God in bringing some to life. They are born again and only they will see the kingdom. You can tell who they are because they love what He loves and hate what He hates and ever more perfectly as they mature. Because they have the mind of Christ see? 1st Cor 2:16.
They do not look, talk, or act like the world does. They also do not hold idolatrous falsehoods concerning who and what He is like the JW’s do. They do not flagrantly blaspheme His name and practice what is an abomination in His site like forlife does. They further do not assure those who do do those things, hence evincing their utter lack of saving grace, that God is just a hip n groovy dood who will take them to heaven anyway like you do.
Gotta go for now.
From Christian to Abominable Blasphemer…
I’ve come a long way, baby.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
Indeed I will and I wanted to start off by saying thank you for your kind and sincere tone. These debates can get very hot with temper, so it is a delight to see a calm and respectful attitude.
[quote]
Now let’s take a look at what Jesus came down to earth to do. He came down here to die for our sins. We know that God cannot die, and yet if Jesus was God, he would have had to die to do anything for our sins. Remember, Jesus was there to be the repayment for what Adam gave up in the garden of Eden. Adam was a perfect man that sinned, and therefore a perfect man had to repay that sin. This is based off the principle of Jehovah’s perfect justice. So, if Jesus were God, he would not physically have the ability to die. The scriptures tell us that.[/quote]
I would like to point out that Jesus was fully God and fully man. The human body of Jesus was able to perish, but not the divine spirit of God the Son who dwelt in him. I like to think of it like a glass about to be filled with your beverage of choice, lets say wine. The glass is the body of Jesus, and the wine is God the Son. When you pour the wine into the glass, they have come together, but they are still distinguished as they literally do not fuse into a new substance. The glass still remains glass and the wine still remains wine. Now if I drop that glass of wine, its obvious the glass breaks and shatters, but the wine remains unaffected. It will spill, but it will not “break”. Likewise, the human body of Christ, which WAS created, was indwelt by God the Son. His human body was able to perish, but not his divine nature. Do you understand that or can I clarify some more? Just let me know.
[quote]
With that in mind, take a look at what Phil 2:6 says:
“who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped”
This scripture has been brought up before, but look at it reflecting on how it fit with the above paragraph. Remember, the entire Bible has to harmonize with itself.[/quote]
This scripture is talking about Jesus’ existance as God since eternity (hence the past tense of “existed”). It says also that though he existed as God, it was not something to be grasped. Other translations read this as “did not regard equality with God a thing to be held on to”. Though Jesus has always existed as God, he was willing to not grasp on to it and instead empty himself in the form of a man. Now since God cannot get rid of his nature, this simply means that he did not rely on his abilities amongst other attributes of God while he was ministering on earth.
I would really love to try and understand this, but this seems like more opinion than based on the Bible. Would you have scriptures to back up these points?[/quote]
Sure bro:
Natures of Jesus
-
Jesus has two natures
a. John 1:1,14, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
b. Colossians 2:9, “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.” -
Jesus is a man
- 1 Timothy 2:5, “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
-
Jesus is divine
1. Isaiah 9:6, “For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”
2. John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, â??Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.â?? Compare to Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, â??I AM WHO I AMâ??; and He said, â??Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, â??I AM has sent me to you.â??â??
3. Colossians 2:9, “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.” -
Unchangeable
1. Heb. 13:8, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.” -
Creator of All Things
1. Col. 1:15, “For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authoritiesâ??all things have been created by Him and for Him.” -
Mediator
1. 1 Timothy 2:5, “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” -
Reveals the Father
1. Matthew 11:27, “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.” -
Save Sinners
1. 1 Timothy 1:15, “It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.”
2. Titus 1:4, “to Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.”
Jesus contains all the elements of God. he can do what God does. What mere man can forgive sins, live a perfect life, create all things and he himself claim equality with God? What angel of heaven can say “I am the way, the truth and the life”? No created being of God can do that. ONLY God can fulfill these things. BUT we do see that Jesus communicates with the Father. So are they different gods? No. They are the same in WHAT they are (Deity) but they are different in person. Just like me and you are one in essence (we are human) but different persons. Time is past, present and future, but there is only one time, not two different types of time.
Jesus said “The Father is greater than I”, but he was made lower than the angels of heaven, for a short period of time. If he was made lower than the angels, of course he’d be made lower than God. He did this to rely on God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, not himself, who was in very nature God, but did not consider equality with God something to be held on to (Philippians 2:6). See also Hebrews 2:9.
You have every right to say its all based on opinion, but its not. I receive all my information from scriptures.
I do not mean to be rude or change the subject, but where does it say that Jesus was actually Michael. Where does it even hint at it? The doctrine of the Trinity was established well before the Watchtower Bible.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Give me an example of something I don’t understand. “Nothing” is a rather large brush. >>>[/quote]I tried. It was like talkin to a modern American catholic =]
[quote]pat wrote:
And if you are ever in Atlanta, let me know, we shall break bread and discuss stuff.[/quote]I accept as well. You may be and I won’t be surprised how little we have in common theologically, but you would be surely disabused of your erroneous notion of my hatred for you. I think even Chris has few rays shining through there. I’ll take ya out to Pittypat’s Porch. Yes, I’ve been to Atlanta.
[/quote]
You tried my ass. All you said was the whole institution was corrupt and false because the Vatican is elaborate and part of the funding came from a corrupt bishop in Germany.
Further, you only focused the word anathema taking it to mean cursed, when it was to be meant as excommunicated as in you are out of communication with the church if you take exception to the dogmas… This shouldn’t surprise you or upset anyone unless you are catholic. I am in a state of excommunication with most protestant churches, or any other faith for that matter. Your dogma’s mean nothing to me. For instance, faith alone salvation. Being “saved”, etc.
You hate my faith and the hate is based on falsehoods. I take it personally, but so do you.[/quote]So Pittypat’s Porch then?
EDIT: I just know I’m gonna be sorry for this.
Ephesians 2:1-10 (ESV which you say you like)
[quote]2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience�?�¢?? 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [1] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ�?�¢??by grace you have been saved�?�¢?? 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. >>>[/quote]Do you see anything like everybody being dead enemies of God until He raised them by grace through faith alone whereby they are saved and subsequently walk in good works that HE prepared beforehand here? Any of that here at all? You will, until you run off to some RCC site for the blasphemous butchery of this most glorious beautiful passage that you will return here with.
I am born of the most high God by His eternal decree. I was dead and He raised me together with Christ. How dare you declare that mighty miraculous work of resurrection subject to failure. You do what you want pal. I will continue to lay on my face at His feet drinking deeply of His unsearchable grace.
1 John 5:13, [quote]<<< “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” >>>[/quote] I KNOW. You can too. It’s a monstrous tragedy how that abominable “church” strings you along with all it sacerdotal God grieving sophistry. Ohhhh , how they’re gonna pay.
If you really care at all. I might even take a chance and share with you the hermeneutic principles I use in relating the numerous passages like this one to some others that might appear to the untutored mind to mitigate the breathtaking truths contained herein.[/quote]
What’s that got to do with anything? If you think either of those passages are dispelled by the church your on crack…Actually I’d like to see it, please find where the church disagrees with this passage. If you understood it, then you would know that all these are tied together. Faith does good works, good works requires faith, and all of it means nothing with out love.
Scriptural reference:
James 1:22-25
1 Cor 13:1-13
Their going to pay? For what, exactly? [/quote]You have a weird way of stating things Pat, by which I actually mean no insult, but this is a bit better than I expected. You did miss most of my point, but I’ll try n answer further when I get a chance. Here’s some clues for now.
Enemy means… enemy. You know, like one set against?
Dead means dead.
By nature means what you are.
Made alive means like resurrected.
Grace, saved, faith, NOT OF WORKS.
“YOU MAY KNOW” means you may have certain knnowledge.
Eternal life? Go ahead n guess.
See, dead people can’t believe. They can’t do anything except be dead unless first made alive. That’s why Paul, after declaring everybody’s deadness also proclaims the amazing grace of God in bringing some to life. They are born again and only they will see the kingdom. You can tell who they are because they love what He loves and hate what He hates and ever more perfectly as they mature. Because they have the mind of Christ see? 1st Cor 2:16. [/quote]
Of course we know who is born again, they usually have baptismal records.
I’m still going to guess Pat believes that there is no salvation outside the Church. Lol @ hip n groovy dood.
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
Indeed I will and I wanted to start off by saying thank you for your kind and sincere tone. These debates can get very hot with temper, so it is a delight to see a calm and respectful attitude.
[quote]
Now let’s take a look at what Jesus came down to earth to do. He came down here to die for our sins. We know that God cannot die, and yet if Jesus was God, he would have had to die to do anything for our sins. Remember, Jesus was there to be the repayment for what Adam gave up in the garden of Eden. Adam was a perfect man that sinned, and therefore a perfect man had to repay that sin. This is based off the principle of Jehovah’s perfect justice. So, if Jesus were God, he would not physically have the ability to die. The scriptures tell us that.[/quote]
I would like to point out that Jesus was fully God and fully man. The human body of Jesus was able to perish, but not the divine spirit of God the Son who dwelt in him. I like to think of it like a glass about to be filled with your beverage of choice, lets say wine. The glass is the body of Jesus, and the wine is God the Son. When you pour the wine into the glass, they have come together, but they are still distinguished as they literally do not fuse into a new substance. The glass still remains glass and the wine still remains wine. Now if I drop that glass of wine, its obvious the glass breaks and shatters, but the wine remains unaffected. It will spill, but it will not “break”. Likewise, the human body of Christ, which WAS created, was indwelt by God the Son. His human body was able to perish, but not his divine nature. Do you understand that or can I clarify some more? Just let me know.
Great Scriptures. thank you for it. Also, I don’t view what you say as rude. I have seen much more in my door to door ministry 
I don’t have time this moment, but I will be back to respond your scriptures one by one. What tends to happen in these discussion is one side gets defense because someone brings up counterpoints. I hope that doesn’t happen here. we are told to look to the bible for our answers and so that is why I asked for scriptures.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Give me an example of something I don’t understand. “Nothing” is a rather large brush. >>>[/quote]I tried. It was like talkin to a modern American catholic =]
[quote]pat wrote:
And if you are ever in Atlanta, let me know, we shall break bread and discuss stuff.[/quote]I accept as well. You may be and I won’t be surprised how little we have in common theologically, but you would be surely disabused of your erroneous notion of my hatred for you. I think even Chris has few rays shining through there. I’ll take ya out to Pittypat’s Porch. Yes, I’ve been to Atlanta.
[/quote]
You tried my ass. All you said was the whole institution was corrupt and false because the Vatican is elaborate and part of the funding came from a corrupt bishop in Germany.
Further, you only focused the word anathema taking it to mean cursed, when it was to be meant as excommunicated as in you are out of communication with the church if you take exception to the dogmas… This shouldn’t surprise you or upset anyone unless you are catholic. I am in a state of excommunication with most protestant churches, or any other faith for that matter. Your dogma’s mean nothing to me. For instance, faith alone salvation. Being “saved”, etc.
You hate my faith and the hate is based on falsehoods. I take it personally, but so do you.[/quote]So Pittypat’s Porch then?
EDIT: I just know I’m gonna be sorry for this.
Ephesians 2:1-10 (ESV which you say you like)
[quote]2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience�?�¢?? 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [1] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ�?�¢??by grace you have been saved�?�¢?? 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. >>>[/quote]Do you see anything like everybody being dead enemies of God until He raised them by grace through faith alone whereby they are saved and subsequently walk in good works that HE prepared beforehand here? Any of that here at all? You will, until you run off to some RCC site for the blasphemous butchery of this most glorious beautiful passage that you will return here with.
I am born of the most high God by His eternal decree. I was dead and He raised me together with Christ. How dare you declare that mighty miraculous work of resurrection subject to failure. You do what you want pal. I will continue to lay on my face at His feet drinking deeply of His unsearchable grace.
1 John 5:13, [quote]<<< “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” >>>[/quote] I KNOW. You can too. It’s a monstrous tragedy how that abominable “church” strings you along with all it sacerdotal God grieving sophistry. Ohhhh , how they’re gonna pay.
If you really care at all. I might even take a chance and share with you the hermeneutic principles I use in relating the numerous passages like this one to some others that might appear to the untutored mind to mitigate the breathtaking truths contained herein.[/quote]
What’s that got to do with anything? If you think either of those passages are dispelled by the church your on crack…Actually I’d like to see it, please find where the church disagrees with this passage. If you understood it, then you would know that all these are tied together. Faith does good works, good works requires faith, and all of it means nothing with out love.
Scriptural reference:
James 1:22-25
1 Cor 13:1-13
Their going to pay? For what, exactly? [/quote]You have a weird way of stating things Pat, by which I actually mean no insult, but this is a bit better than I expected. You did miss most of my point, but I’ll try n answer further when I get a chance. Here’s some clues for now.
Enemy means… enemy. You know, like one set against?
Dead means dead.
By nature means what you are.
Made alive means like resurrected.
Grace, saved, faith, NOT OF WORKS.
“YOU MAY KNOW” means you may have certain knnowledge.
Eternal life? Go ahead n guess.
See, dead people can’t believe. They can’t do anything except be dead unless first made alive. That’s why Paul, after declaring everybody’s deadness also proclaims the amazing grace of God in bringing some to life. They are born again and only they will see the kingdom. You can tell who they are because they love what He loves and hate what He hates and ever more perfectly as they mature. Because they have the mind of Christ see? 1st Cor 2:16.
They do not look, talk, or act like the world does. They also do not hold idolatrous falsehoods concerning who and what He is like the JW’s do. They do not flagrantly blaspheme His name and practice what is an abomination in His site like forlife does. They further do not assure those who do do those things, hence evincing their utter lack of saving grace, that God is just a hip n groovy dood who will take them to heaven anyway like you do.
Gotta go for now.
[/quote]
I must have missed it then, be direct, don’t lead me. I have no patience for that. I do not need the “see spot” treatment. I prefer directness.
I do not disagree with Paul, nor does the Catholic church. After all he was what we would call a bishop now and a saint. So what’s your point?
Being reborn in spirit isn’t just a declaration, it’s a life style, it is what you are. Born again just happens to be a protestant ritual, it is not a tenant disbelieved by Catholicism, it’s just approached differently.
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Being reborn in spirit isn’t just a declaration, it’s a life style, it is what you are. >>>[/quote]Describe that for me. Seriously. What kind of lifestyle does a person reborn in spirit live? What are they and how do they live?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Being reborn in spirit isn’t just a declaration, it’s a life style, it is what you are. >>>[/quote]Describe that for me. Seriously. What kind of lifestyle does a person reborn in spirit live? What are they and how do they live?
[/quote]
A good life? A life in line with God over man, with heaven in mind not the world. A God first mentality essentially.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I’m still going to guess Pat believes that there is no salvation outside the Church. Lol @ hip n groovy dood.[/quote]
No, even the Catechism agrees there is salvation outside the church, that salvation ultimately is between God and man alone.
But I also agree that had it not been for what we call Catholicism today, there would be no salvation in the New Covenant for that was the the first and only Church preaching salvation through Christ in the early years. The word would not have spread without the church.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I’m still going to guess Pat believes that there is no salvation outside the Church. Lol @ hip n groovy dood.[/quote]
No, even the Catechism agrees there is salvation outside the church, that salvation ultimately is between God and man alone.
But I also agree that had it not been for what we call Catholicism today, there would be no salvation in the New Covenant for that was the the first and only Church preaching salvation through Christ in the early years. The word would not have spread without the church. [/quote]
I’d have to disagree, even those that are invincibly ignorant are still saved through the Church.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I’m still going to guess Pat believes that there is no salvation outside the Church. Lol @ hip n groovy dood.[/quote]
No, even the Catechism agrees there is salvation outside the church, that salvation ultimately is between God and man alone.
But I also agree that had it not been for what we call Catholicism today, there would be no salvation in the New Covenant for that was the the first and only Church preaching salvation through Christ in the early years. The word would not have spread without the church. [/quote]
I’d have to disagree, even those that are invincibly ignorant are still saved through the Church.[/quote]
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I’m still going to guess Pat believes that there is no salvation outside the Church. Lol @ hip n groovy dood.[/quote]
No, even the Catechism agrees there is salvation outside the church, that salvation ultimately is between God and man alone.
But I also agree that had it not been for what we call Catholicism today, there would be no salvation in the New Covenant for that was the the first and only Church preaching salvation through Christ in the early years. The word would not have spread without the church. [/quote]
I’d have to disagree, even those that are invincibly ignorant are still saved through the Church.[/quote]
Read:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm[/quote]
Yes, I know. I’ve read 846-8 many times. But, as 848 says, “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”
Meaning that still even if not formally Catholic, without being Catholic, which is doing His will, one cannot be saved. So, if I had a choice of people being a good (Muslim, Protestant, &c) or a Catholic, I would rather them be formally in the Church.
I’m not saying that if you’re not formally part of the Catholic Church then there is no salvation, but because of the significance of the Catholic Church and the power of Lord, that there is no salvation outside the Church. Further, because of the unity of the Catholic Church all have the possibility to be saved, of course that has a pretext of not being formally Catholic that it was no fault of their own.
This “Re-formulated positively,” statement at 846 should be all the evidence anyone needs of the man made synthetic fabric of the impotent RCC. Anybody who thinks this was always what was meant by “Outside the Church there is no salvation” is willfully lying to themselves or an imbecile. Who does and doesn’t go to heaven and whether clearly unsaved pagans can be identified has changed.
Pat’s right, or so it appears. The RCC has declared the incomprehensibly holy God a hip n groovy dood who just accepts people doing the best they know how despite clear and unmistakable biblical evidence to the contrary. Wadda joke, and a bad one at that. How can anybody believe the Holy One of Israel could have anything to do with this feel good psychobabble.
But wait, we have not yet been treated to Chris’s response which will surely dig up some long convoluted explanation that contradicts all this, but not really. You just need to achieve a “higher understanding” provided in a load of ritual and religion and it’s all good.
OR, OR, OR, you can just accept the simple statements of scripture, accessible to a child, that all are born dead and those and only those who believe with their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord will be saved and that a flagrantly sinful life and or fatally heretical gospel evince the absence of saving grace.
See that’s what Paul preached. That’s What Peter preached and James and John and Stephen and Barnabas and Timothy and Titus. It wasn’t until the 20th century that we learn from that satanic lie in Rome that actually all kinds of religious and well meaning people are in God’s saving favor because… it feels good? Even they didn’t always believe that. In fact for most of the church age the RCC did not teach this. It’s now “reformulated positively”.
That’s what will be paid for Pat. Millions and millions of wailing lost souls will eternally die with the knowledge that that Molech in the vatican lied to them.