My last post until Sunday, Herding Cats on sola Scriptura: The benefit of Crypto gambling on Niche Poker Online
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, I was referring to the last few lines of Brandon’s post. Do you think those gay popes will be saved?[/quote]
Didn’t get that far, if you want to give me those names so I can know who you are talking about.[/quote]
“To enjoy oneself and to lie carnally with women or with boys is no more of a sin than rubbing one’s hands together.”
- Pope Boniface VIII
This the same Pope who issued the Unim Sanctum, Nov 18, 1302, which ends saying:
“Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” The Roman Pontiff was a sex pervert.
John XII Was killed by a jealous husband who found the pope in bed with his wife
Benedict XI was know to rape and murder, and then sold his position to some italian pope
pope Julius III made his teenaged gay love a cardinal
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< How do you know you are right tirib? We Catholics are scriptural to. If you think those who hold fast to evangelical tradition are better, more important or higher on the totem pole than anybody else is full of shit.
I tell you this, if God were as big a jerk as you make him out to be, I would have no use for him. But he’s not and I know it…[/quote]You HAVE no use for Him Pat and you understand NOTHING of the glorious gospel of the true living and risen holy Christ. I’ll keep praying that He has a holy use for you and that is not just talk. Whatever hippified feel good sugar daddy deity this is you’re talking about? Not even the pope would recognize. I’ll actually give your church more credit than you.
[/quote]
I understand it perfectly well. You are to arrogant to get it apparently.
You don’t know what you are talking about yet you pass judgment as if you do. What do you know about me or the church. You can take anything I have ever said against the scriptures or the catechism and I am right in line…I think you are a fool.
What do you know about the Church? You have proven only to believe propaganda. Prove you seek the truth, I bat when you look at it, you know you don’t. Because you judge based on false information. The only thing you have proven is that you hate with out basis in fact, that is all you have proven…
You are pharasitic in your expression of faith. God is bigger than your church, the scriptures everything. He is more than all of it…
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< I think you are a fool. >>> <<< God is bigger than your church, the scriptures everything. He is more than all of it…[/quote]I left the parts that have a shred of truth to them. If you’re ever in Detroit Pat, lemme know ahead of time. You can stay at my place. I’m not kidding. I’ve got a handshake and a hug for ya and there’s like 10 RC parishes within a few miles of here so you’ll never be too far from home.
You don’t understand anything. Nothing.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
When Jesus says “the Father is greater than I” and “do not worship me, but only God the Father” it is because when the preincarnate Son became man he had to submit himself every way that a man would, even though he still retained his divine nature. He had to do it to fulfill the law. It is when Christ was resurrected that he was glorified back into the state that he shared with the Father. Thats why before his resurrection Christ rebuked worship, but after his resurrection he accepted it (when Thomas declared “my Lord and my God”).
See Hebrews 2: 9-10 [/quote]
Let’s take a deeper look at this verse and other verses talking about Jesus in the heavenly position. First off, what do you mean by “retain his divine nature” and yet at the same time “submit himself every way that a man would”?[/quote]
It means that Christ took on the nature of a servant. He still had the power of God and his divine essence, but he chose to not use them in order to rely entirely on God the Father and God the Holy Spirit for guidance, which is what a believer in God should do.
[quote]forbes wrote:
<<< It means that Christ took on the nature of a servant. He still had the power of God and his divine essence, but he chose to not use them in order to rely entirely on God the Father and God the Holy Spirit for guidance, which is what a believer in God should do. >>>[/quote]I don’t know if I’d use the word “entirely” here, but yes.
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
When Jesus says “the Father is greater than I” and “do not worship me, but only God the Father” it is because when the preincarnate Son became man he had to submit himself every way that a man would, even though he still retained his divine nature. He had to do it to fulfill the law. It is when Christ was resurrected that he was glorified back into the state that he shared with the Father. Thats why before his resurrection Christ rebuked worship, but after his resurrection he accepted it (when Thomas declared “my Lord and my God”).
See Hebrews 2: 9-10 [/quote]
Let’s take a deeper look at this verse and other verses talking about Jesus in the heavenly position. First off, what do you mean by “retain his divine nature” and yet at the same time “submit himself every way that a man would”?[/quote]
It means that Christ took on the nature of a servant. He still had the power of God and his divine essence, but he chose to not use them in order to rely entirely on God the Father and God the Holy Spirit for guidance, which is what a believer in God should do.
[/quote]
Now let’s take a look at what Jesus came down to earth to do. He came down here to die for our sins. We know that God cannot die, and yet if Jesus was God, he would have had to die to do anything for our sins. Remember, Jesus was there to be the repayment for what Adam gave up in the garden of Eden. Adam was a perfect man that sinned, and therefore a perfect man had to repay that sin. This is based off the principle of Jehovah’s perfect justice. So, if Jesus were God, he would not physically have the ability to die. The scriptures tell us that.
With that in mind, take a look at what Phil 2:6 says:
“who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped”
This scripture has been brought up before, but look at it reflecting on how it fit with the above paragraph. Remember, the entire Bible has to harmonize with itself.
Anther scripture written after Jesus’ earthy course:
Acts 7:55-56
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
The point I wanted to bring out was the fact that they are two individuals, not two parts of one individual. Incidentally, it also brings up the fact that Steven was “filled” with the Holy Spirit. Reason on this. Can a person really be “filled” with another person?
There are other scripture, obviously, that can be shown to help you appreciate that they are different people. In fact, look at the end of the book of John:
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
That was what John’s purpose was. He wanted people to understand that point. If he wanted to have us see that Jesus was actually God, what better place to write it that here! It would have read something like this:
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
But it doesn’t say that. Next, I would like to talk about Jesus being tempted in the wilderness and how very significant this is to show that Jesus is not God. But I have to go for now. Please think about what was written and reflect on it
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< I think you are a fool. >>> <<< God is bigger than your church, the scriptures everything. He is more than all of it…[/quote]I left the parts that have a shred of truth to them. If you’re ever in Detroit Pat, lemme know ahead of time. You can stay at my place. I’m not kidding. I’ve got a handshake and a hug for ya and there’s like 10 RC parishes within a few miles of here so you’ll never be too far from home.
You don’t understand anything. Nothing.
[/quote]
I accept, though I care little for Detroit. As for what I understand and do not understand, I understand more than you think. What I rally against is your unwarranted prejudice. You hatred for the Catholic Church is not based in truth, and that is a problem and I am and will call you out on it. You don’t understand it and what you rally against exists partially or not at all. That’s a problem. If you are going to hate us hate us on real stuff, not made up stuff.
Give me an example of something I don’t understand. “Nothing” is a rather large brush.
And if you are ever in Atlanta, let me know, we shall break bread and discuss stuff.
Indeed I will and I wanted to start off by saying thank you for your kind and sincere tone. These debates can get very hot with temper, so it is a delight to see a calm and respectful attitude.
[quote]
Now let’s take a look at what Jesus came down to earth to do. He came down here to die for our sins. We know that God cannot die, and yet if Jesus was God, he would have had to die to do anything for our sins. Remember, Jesus was there to be the repayment for what Adam gave up in the garden of Eden. Adam was a perfect man that sinned, and therefore a perfect man had to repay that sin. This is based off the principle of Jehovah’s perfect justice. So, if Jesus were God, he would not physically have the ability to die. The scriptures tell us that.[/quote]
I would like to point out that Jesus was fully God and fully man. The human body of Jesus was able to perish, but not the divine spirit of God the Son who dwelt in him. I like to think of it like a glass about to be filled with your beverage of choice, lets say wine. The glass is the body of Jesus, and the wine is God the Son. When you pour the wine into the glass, they have come together, but they are still distinguished as they literally do not fuse into a new substance. The glass still remains glass and the wine still remains wine. Now if I drop that glass of wine, its obvious the glass breaks and shatters, but the wine remains unaffected. It will spill, but it will not “break”. Likewise, the human body of Christ, which WAS created, was indwelt by God the Son. His human body was able to perish, but not his divine nature. Do you understand that or can I clarify some more? Just let me know.
[quote]
With that in mind, take a look at what Phil 2:6 says:
“who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped”
This scripture has been brought up before, but look at it reflecting on how it fit with the above paragraph. Remember, the entire Bible has to harmonize with itself.[/quote]
This scripture is talking about Jesus’ existance as God since eternity (hence the past tense of “existed”). It says also that though he existed as God, it was not something to be grasped. Other translations read this as “did not regard equality with God a thing to be held on to”. Though Jesus has always existed as God, he was willing to not grasp on to it and instead empty himself in the form of a man. Now since God cannot get rid of his nature, this simply means that he did not rely on his abilities amongst other attributes of God while he was ministering on earth.
[quote]
Anther scripture written after Jesus’ earthy course:
Acts 7:55-56
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
The point I wanted to bring out was the fact that they are two individuals, not two parts of one individual. Incidentally, it also brings up the fact that Steven was “filled” with the Holy Spirit. Reason on this. Can a person really be “filled” with another person?
There are other scripture, obviously, that can be shown to help you appreciate that they are different people.[/quote]
You are correct in that God the Son and God the Father and God the Holy Spirit ARE different individual’s. God is ONE in being (what he is) and THREE in person (who they are). ONE being of God manifested in THREE individual persons. Not the Father turning into the Son, who turns into the Holy Spirit, not three people in one person, or any other definition you may have heard. ONE being of God, shared between THREE persons.
As for Stephen, yes he can be filled by another person if that person does not have a physical body, whom being the Holy Spirit. If God can create the Universe with just his spoken Word, he can in “fill” another person with his spirit.
John is saying that Jesus is God the Son, the second person in the trinity. The thing is, Jesus has every attribute of God. He forgives sins, accepts worship, calls himself “The Way, The Truth, and The Life”, and invites people to “Come to him all who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest”. What mere prophet, angel or 'good man" can do these things?
As for Jesus being tempted, I will start.
I do not know how it proves he is not God. You may bring up a verse that says “God cannot be tempted” and that is true, but remember, when Jesus, or more specifically, God the Son came to earth, he surrendered his power. Not that he didn’t have it, but so that he could rely on God the Father and God the Holy Spirit for strength. This means that in order for a perfect man to die for our sins, he had to be tempted. Also, to be tempted doesn’t mean you’ve done wrong. Giving into the temptation is when you sin.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, I was referring to the last few lines of Brandon’s post. Do you think those gay popes will be saved?[/quote]
Didn’t get that far, if you want to give me those names so I can know who you are talking about.[/quote]
“To enjoy oneself and to lie carnally with women or with boys is no more of a sin than rubbing one’s hands together.”
- Pope Boniface VIII
This the same Pope who issued the Unim Sanctum, Nov 18, 1302, which ends saying:
“Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” The Roman Pontiff was a sex pervert.
[/quote]
Well, let’s first look at the first statement…Unim isn’t even Latin, so there is no Pontifical document named Unim Sanctum, the proper document is named Unam Sanctum. And, yes the last statement is correct.
As, my loyal and long time friend, Brother Rich said about this topic, “Popes are fallible humans and sinners in their private actions, just like enyone else.”
And, if makes any difference Dante put Boniface VIII into Hell in his Divine Comedy.
Well if he was killed in the act of sin, that would be a little difficult to be saved.
Actually Pope Benedict XI wasn’t known to rape and murder, and he never sold his position to some Italian pope. Unless Pope Benedict XI came back from the dead to sell his office because he died while Pope on July 7th, 1304, after eight months of being the Pope.
[quote]
pope Julius III made his teenaged gay love a cardinal [/quote]
I don’t know if they “will” be saved, I am not God. Anyone can be saved, however out of the four Popes you listed only one of them is Blessed, and what brandon said about him is untrue. Maybe next time he should actually do some research instead of copy and pasting off of wikiPedia.
Anyway, “will” they be saved? Seems as if one has been, Bl. Benedict XI. The other three not sure (John XII seems as if he’d be the least likely, but I have no clue since I don’t know a lot about him). However, theologically, yes. If they repent of their sins and come into communion with the Church, then of course they can be saved.
I’m not God, so saying they will be is not my right or position. So, final answer, they can be, but I can say if they will be.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< I don’t know if they “will” be saved, I am not God. >>>[/quote]I do because God Himself tells those with ears to hear.
1st John 3:3-10
[quote]<<< 3-And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 4-Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5-You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6-No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7-Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8-the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9-No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10-By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. >>>[/quote]Unless of course they do penance and charitable works. I know. There I go again misrepresenting the church’s teaching. Tell me what you want Chris, I know what I see. For the record? Yes, even popes who are the very essence of walking insult to the most high God can be saved if they ever do repent and believe the gospel.
Why do you do this to yourself Chris? What could possibly be clearer than this and a dozen other NT passages declaring the flagrant practicing sinner devoid of saving grace and here in fact of the devil? I mean you’d have to be a catholic to be talked out of this unmistakable truth.
You’re a hearer, but you don’t seem to be a doer, T.
You put your humility in knowledge, but not in yourself. You pretend like you’re justified by merely asking for it?
Ask the Lord into your heart, and you will be saved. That is what I hear, “just ask.” Sounds like salvation by works to me. I don’t presume any of my charitable works will save me, I don’t assume any of them have justified me. The only one I know that has given me justification is Baptism. The rest, no one can be certain.
Your humility is in knowledge, mine is in myself. I don’t doubt my knowledge, I doubt if I am doing the Lord’s will. So, I work harder, but you don’t doubt yourself. After all, all you need to do is just call his name, ask him into your heart and you’re saved.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” Like a man that hears, but does not do, I hope you have not built your house on a foundation of sand.
Edit: And, on the point that Jesus does not demand sacrifices: Jesus said to him, “See that you say nothing to any one; but go, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded.”
God demands sacrifice, to think otherwise is foolish. We sacrifice our material possessions to the Lord, we sacrifice our temperal joy for what God knows that will bring us the most joy, doing his will (a.k.a. Doing good works).
You and I are talkin right past each other.
Ya now what’s funny? My handle, “Tiribulus”, is the name of an especially ferocious and untamable lion in a bible cartoon about Daniel my daughter watched when she was little. I thought of this when looking at your avatar.
Edit: There, now He’s my avatar too. Time to go to my schismatic apostate church =] Later.
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Give me an example of something I don’t understand. “Nothing” is a rather large brush. >>>[/quote]I tried. It was like talkin to a modern American catholic =]
[quote]pat wrote:
And if you are ever in Atlanta, let me know, we shall break bread and discuss stuff.[/quote]I accept as well. You may be and I won’t be surprised how little we have in common theologically, but you would be surely disabused of your erroneous notion of my hatred for you. I think even Chris has a few rays shining through there. I’ll take ya out to Pittypat’s Porch. Yes, I’ve been to Atlanta.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You and I are talkin right past each other.
Ya now what’s funny? My handle, “Tiribulus”, is the name of an especially ferocious and untamable lion in a bible cartoon about Daniel my daughter watched when she was little. I thought of this when looking at your avatar.
Edit: There, now He’s my avatar too. Time to go to my schismatic apostate church =] Later.
[/quote]
I thought it was a misspelling of the noxious weed used as a test booster: Tribulus terrestris - Wikipedia
I guess my cartoon knowledge is lacking compared to my herbal knowledge. Which reminds me, I should probably study my herbal book sometime. Always interesting to read up on what stuff you can spittle on and cure headaches with.
Some people think it’s the nutritional supplement with the spelling T R I B U L U S. That would be truly goofy. I took the name Tiribulus from the cartoon lion you see as my avatar as a handle for Unreal Tournament and Quake 3 years ago because I thought it sounded kinda cool warrior like I guess.
EDIT: Whoops, the link you provided is for the same thing. No, I took that handle in 1999 before I ever heard of tribulus.
Chris, thanks for answering my question. I was curious if Catholics believed all popes were guaranteed salvation, but it sounds like you don’t.
Since we’re talking about avatars, did yours come from Aslan?
[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, thanks for answering my question. I was curious if Catholics believed all popes were guaranteed salvation, but it sounds like you don’t.
Since we’re talking about avatars, did yours come from Aslan?[/quote]
Nobody, popes included is guaranteed salvation. Those are ye olde ideas from way back… Salvation for everybody, is between God and that person.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Give me an example of something I don’t understand. “Nothing” is a rather large brush. >>>[/quote]I tried. It was like talkin to a modern American catholic =]
[quote]pat wrote:
And if you are ever in Atlanta, let me know, we shall break bread and discuss stuff.[/quote]I accept as well. You may be and I won’t be surprised how little we have in common theologically, but you would be surely disabused of your erroneous notion of my hatred for you. I think even Chris has few rays shining through there. I’ll take ya out to Pittypat’s Porch. Yes, I’ve been to Atlanta.
[/quote]
You tried my ass. All you said was the whole institution was corrupt and false because the Vatican is elaborate and part of the funding came from a corrupt bishop in Germany.
Further, you only focused the word anathema taking it to mean cursed, when it was to be meant as excommunicated as in you are out of communication with the church if you take exception to the dogmas… This shouldn’t surprise you or upset anyone unless you are catholic. I am in a state of excommunication with most protestant churches, or any other faith for that matter. Your dogma’s mean nothing to me. For instance, faith alone salvation. Being “saved”, etc.
You hate my faith and the hate is based on falsehoods. I take it personally, but so do you.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Give me an example of something I don’t understand. “Nothing” is a rather large brush. >>>[/quote]I tried. It was like talkin to a modern American catholic =]
[quote]pat wrote:
And if you are ever in Atlanta, let me know, we shall break bread and discuss stuff.[/quote]I accept as well. You may be and I won’t be surprised how little we have in common theologically, but you would be surely disabused of your erroneous notion of my hatred for you. I think even Chris has few rays shining through there. I’ll take ya out to Pittypat’s Porch. Yes, I’ve been to Atlanta.
[/quote]
You tried my ass. All you said was the whole institution was corrupt and false because the Vatican is elaborate and part of the funding came from a corrupt bishop in Germany.
Further, you only focused the word anathema taking it to mean cursed, when it was to be meant as excommunicated as in you are out of communication with the church if you take exception to the dogmas… This shouldn’t surprise you or upset anyone unless you are catholic. I am in a state of excommunication with most protestant churches, or any other faith for that matter. Your dogma’s mean nothing to me. For instance, faith alone salvation. Being “saved”, etc.
You hate my faith and the hate is based on falsehoods. I take it personally, but so do you.[/quote]So Pittypat’s Porch then?
EDIT: I just know I’m gonna be sorry for this.
Ephesians 2:1-10 (ESV which you say you like)
[quote]2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedienceâ?? 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [1] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christâ??by grace you have been savedâ?? 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. >>>[/quote]Do you see anything like everybody being dead enemies of God until He raised them by grace through faith alone whereby they are saved and subsequently walk in good works that HE prepared beforehand here? Any of that here at all? You will, until you run off to some RCC site for the blasphemous butchery of this most glorious beautiful passage that you will return here with.
I am born of the most high God by His eternal decree. I was dead and He raised me together with Christ. How dare you declare that mighty miraculous work of resurrection subject to failure. You do what you want pal. I will continue to lay on my face at His feet drinking deeply of His unsearchable grace.
1 John 5:13, [quote]<<< “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” >>>[/quote] I KNOW. You can too. It’s a monstrous tragedy how that abominable “church” strings you along with all it sacerdotal God grieving sophistry. Ohhhh , how they’re gonna pay.
If you really care at all. I might even take a chance and share with you the hermeneutic principles I use in relating the numerous passages like this one to some others that might appear to the untutored mind to mitigate the breathtaking truths contained herein.