I’m confused what you guys are arguing. Are the JWs saying they believe Jesus was the Archangel Michael? If this is correct, he sure seemed out of character on earth…
Couldn’t their simply be two people named Michael? I’m sure their are lots of Michael’s in Heaven…
Ultimately though, does it really matter?
The concept of the Holy Trinity is Biblically based, but the New Testament is not explicit of the inner workings among God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. The entire concept is super natural and unfortunately this will always remain a mystery.
So through time, people have asked questions like “Who is the most powerful? The Father, Son, or Holy Spirit?” The Catholic church attempted to answer these questions and then made those answers dogma. So for instance, that is directly where we get the word Trinity from; it was defined by man. And that’s not to say that I don’t agree with some or most of the conclusions, but they are purely speculative from a Biblical perspective.
[quote]BBriere wrote:
I always thought the Catholics were good at comparing the Trinity to a clover. You have three distinct leaves on a clover, but they are all part of the clover. You cannot remove one leaf and still have a full clover. No leaf is superior to the others.[/quote]
3 manifestations of one God. For instance, I am a father, a husband, an asshole, and an employee. I am always a dad, I am always a husband, I am always an asshole, and hopefull I will stay an employee. I am 4 manifestations of one pat. God is always the creator, always the Son that relates to us, and always the Holy Spirit who compels us.
Yes this sounds complicated to us, but look at the 4 manifestations of pat…Now imagine I created dogs and had to related to them, so I manifested myself as a dog and had to explain how I can be all those things as a human and still be a dog. That’s similar to God becoming human and trying to explain his reality to us when it doesn’t make sense in our contexts.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
So Jesus is the highest angel there is. Ok, again your assertion does not change the context of my question of verse 13. So when did God ever tell an angel to sit at his right hand? God never said to an angel sit at my righ hand. This is the entire message of Hebrews 1. Jesus is divine and is God.
By the way the people he was speaking to knows that Jesus is God, so do not try and twist his words.
Jesus is also called Lord of lords, King of Kings, Emanuel God with us. I like that name Emanuel. God with us. God is with us in Jesus Christ. He is God.[/quote]
OK, so who did God ask to sit at His right hand then?
[/quote]
I will take your responses as you have no clue and your interpretations and translations of the Bible are incorrect. Jesus can not be an angel. Jesus has to be the physical incarnation of God. Jesus is 100% Human and 100% God.
You tried to say that the people Hebrews was written for beleived that Jesus was an angel. I would say otherwise. The people believed that Jesus claimed to be God, the high ranking Jewish officials beleived that Jesus claimed to be God, and the Disciples believed he claimed to be God. John 8:58 common folk, Luke 22:70-71 High ranking Jewish Officials, all I can say about the disciples is they were martyred for their beleifs in Jesus.
John 18:36-37
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, “You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”
Seems like Jesus is king of Heaven. Only other place than Earth according to JWs.
Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Hebrews 12:2
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."
Hebrews 1:5
“For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”
Hebrews 1:13
To which of the angels did God ever say, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?
Not sure how much clearer it can be made about the distinction between Jesus and angels.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I’m confused what you guys are arguing. Are the JWs saying they believe Jesus was the Archangel Michael? If this is correct, he sure seemed out of character on earth…
Couldn’t their simply be two people named Michael? I’m sure their are lots of Michael’s in Heaven…
Ultimately though, does it really matter?[/quote]
Actually, this does matter. Angels aren’t objects of worship and should not be, only God. This is one of those core tenants. Jesus’s not being divine would invalidate 2000 years of Christianity. So it’s important.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Here’s my points on the divinity of Jesus:
The OT prophesied a DIVINE Messiah: The Jews knew that the coming Messiah was GOD himself:
biblical passages include several Messianic Psalms - Psalm 2, Psalm 110 for examples. Isaih 7:14 gives the name of the Messiah as Immanueal = GOD WITH US. Isaiah 9:6 is a messianic prophecy declaring the deity of the Messiah “wonderful counselor, mighty God”. Micah 5:2 established that the Messiah existed since eternity (a Divine trait)
Jesus is called Jehovah - and I’ll just use LORD and not Lord for the JW’s sake: Psalm 23:1 - Jehovah is my Shepherd links to John 10:11 where Jesus calls himslef the Shepherd and supported by the writer of Hebrews on hebrews 13:20 where he states " brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Jehovah". Isaiah 6:5 recounts that Jehovah was lifted up and the Apostle John says in John 12:41 that Isaiah saw Christ’s glory. Most compelling of all is Jeremiah 23: 5-6 where Jehovah declares “and this is His name by which He will be called, Jehovah our righteousness.” And the final absolutely cannot be ignored proof - Joel 2:32 “whosoever calls upon the name of Jehovah will be saved” - links to Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 where the only name we can call on for salvation is Jesus the Messiah - thus Jesus is Jehovah. (there cannot be two names, unless they are the same person).
Jesus possess all of the incommunnicable traits of God:
Eternal - Alpha and omega, beginning and the end - also see Micah 5:2
omnipresent - matthew 18:20 and matthew 28:20
omniscient - john 16:30, john 21:17, Revelation 2:23
omnipotent - Philippians 3:21, hebrews 1:3
immutable - hebrews 1:20-12, Hebrews 13:8
and finally Colossians 2:9 - for in Him all the Fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form.
Created all things - John 1:3, Colossianss 1:16 and 17
Acts as divine providence - john 17:2, Ephesians 1:22
Forgives sins - Matthew 9:2-7. Mark 2:5-10
Raises the dead and conducts final judgement - John 5:22, Acts 10:42, Acts 17:31 and 2 Timothy 4:1
now - there are two other points - the Bible declares him to be God and He claims to be God, but those points have been endlessly debated here - I think my preceeding 5 points more than establish that Jesus is the Divine Messiah and thus God[/quote]
Amen.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
I always thought the Catholics were good at comparing the Trinity to a clover. You have three distinct leaves on a clover, but they are all part of the clover. You cannot remove one leaf and still have a full clover. No leaf is superior to the others.[/quote]
3 manifestations of one God. For instance, I am a father, a husband, an asshole, and an employee. I am always a dad, I am always a husband, I am always an asshole, and hopefull I will stay an employee. I am 4 manifestations of one pat. God is always the creator, always the Son that relates to us, and always the Holy Spirit who compels us.
Yes this sounds complicated to us, but look at the 4 manifestations of pat…Now imagine I created dogs and had to related to them, so I manifested myself as a dog and had to explain how I can be all those things as a human and still be a dog. That’s similar to God becoming human and trying to explain his reality to us when it doesn’t make sense in our contexts.[/quote]
Very nicely put.
[quote]haney1 wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
honest_lifter wrote:
BBriere wrote:
Jesus says specifically “I and the Father are one” and “The Father is in me and I in the Father.” It would be very hard to separate the two if Jesus was one with the Father.
Yes! it would be hard to separate Jesus and God if they were “one” in flesh.
Please notice a similar use of the phrasing, and notice the way Jesus says it:
John 17:11 (NIV
“I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.”
On a practical point, how could someone ‘come’ to someone else if they were the same person?
Also, notice the end of the verse where Jesus prays that his disciples become ‘one’ just like Jesus and His Father are ‘one’.
not to nit pick, but I don’t know of many trinitarians that would attribute this verse to Jesus saying He and the Father are “one” flesh, they would attribute them to being one in essence.
You mean won’t use the verse I used? Or the verse BBriere used?[/quote]
[quote]No trinitarian that I know of attributes the God head to having flesh./quote]
So may I ask what was Jesus when he came to the earth? I know D says that he is God, and no one disagreed. However, that would make him flesh, no?
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I’m confused what you guys are arguing. Are the JWs saying they believe Jesus was the Archangel Michael? If this is correct, he sure seemed out of character on earth…
Couldn’t their simply be two people named Michael? I’m sure their are lots of Michael’s in Heaven…
Ultimately though, does it really matter?[/quote]
Actually, this does matter. Angels aren’t objects of worship and should not be, only God. This is one of those core tenants. Jesus’s not being divine would invalidate 2000 years of Christianity. So it’s important.[/quote]
Well, if Jesus was an Angel, wouldn’t he have stumps of cut off wings or something more obvious? The fact that he was born kinda demonstrates he was a man, right?
Or are they talking he was somehow reborn as a human? I’ve never heard of angels being able to do this. I thought once you were an angel, you were angel or fallen angel.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Here’s my points on the divinity of Jesus:
The OT prophesied a DIVINE Messiah: The Jews knew that the coming Messiah was GOD himself:
biblical passages include several Messianic Psalms - Psalm 2, Psalm 110 for examples. Isaih 7:14 gives the name of the Messiah as Immanueal = GOD WITH US. Isaiah 9:6 is a messianic prophecy declaring the deity of the Messiah “wonderful counselor, mighty God”. Micah 5:2 established that the Messiah existed since eternity (a Divine trait)
Jesus is called Jehovah - and I’ll just use LORD and not Lord for the JW’s sake: Psalm 23:1 - Jehovah is my Shepherd links to John 10:11 where Jesus calls himslef the Shepherd and supported by the writer of Hebrews on hebrews 13:20 where he states " brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Jehovah". Isaiah 6:5 recounts that Jehovah was lifted up and the Apostle John says in John 12:41 that Isaiah saw Christ’s glory. Most compelling of all is Jeremiah 23: 5-6 where Jehovah declares “and this is His name by which He will be called, Jehovah our righteousness.” And the final absolutely cannot be ignored proof - Joel 2:32 “whosoever calls upon the name of Jehovah will be saved” - links to Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 where the only name we can call on for salvation is Jesus the Messiah - thus Jesus is Jehovah. (there cannot be two names, unless they are the same person).
Jesus possess all of the incommunnicable traits of God:
Eternal - Alpha and omega, beginning and the end - also see Micah 5:2
omnipresent - matthew 18:20 and matthew 28:20
omniscient - john 16:30, john 21:17, Revelation 2:23
omnipotent - Philippians 3:21, hebrews 1:3
immutable - hebrews 1:20-12, Hebrews 13:8
and finally Colossians 2:9 - for in Him all the Fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form.
Created all things - John 1:3, Colossianss 1:16 and 17
Acts as divine providence - john 17:2, Ephesians 1:22
Forgives sins - Matthew 9:2-7. Mark 2:5-10
Raises the dead and conducts final judgement - John 5:22, Acts 10:42, Acts 17:31 and 2 Timothy 4:1
now - there are two other points - the Bible declares him to be God and He claims to be God, but those points have been endlessly debated here - I think my preceeding 5 points more than establish that Jesus is the Divine Messiah and thus God[/quote]
This also speaks to the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Only God can for give sins. Only through the power of the Holy Spirit were the apostles able to do so. Paul can’t forgive sins, Peter can’t, angels can’t, so by whose authority did they forgive sins? The Holy Spirit who is God…
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I’m confused what you guys are arguing. Are the JWs saying they believe Jesus was the Archangel Michael? If this is correct, he sure seemed out of character on earth…
Couldn’t their simply be two people named Michael? I’m sure their are lots of Michael’s in Heaven…
Ultimately though, does it really matter?[/quote]
I hope a JW will jump in here just so we can have it on record. JWs believe that Jesus is the arch-angel Michael. This is the one point I have been trying to make. If Jesus is an angel then he can not sit at the right hand of the father as stated in Hebrews 1:13. So this is very important and a foundation of Christianity. Personally if Jesus is an angel what is the point in beleiving in Christianity? We as beleivers have an inheritance in Heaven. Angels do not have an inheritance so only God can give something that he owns as an inheritance to humans. So it is only through God can salvation be possible. Jesus being God allows us to have that inheritance in Heaven. Praise be to God.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
So Jesus is the highest angel there is. Ok, again your assertion does not change the context of my question of verse 13. So when did God ever tell an angel to sit at his right hand? God never said to an angel sit at my righ hand. This is the entire message of Hebrews 1. Jesus is divine and is God.
By the way the people he was speaking to knows that Jesus is God, so do not try and twist his words.
Jesus is also called Lord of lords, King of Kings, Emanuel God with us. I like that name Emanuel. God with us. God is with us in Jesus Christ. He is God.[/quote]
OK, so who did God ask to sit at His right hand then?
[/quote]
I will take your responses as you have no clue and your interpretations and translations of the Bible are incorrect. Jesus can not be an angel. Jesus has to be the physical incarnation of God. Jesus is 100% Human and 100% God.
You tried to say that the people Hebrews was written for beleived that Jesus was an angel. I would say otherwise. The people believed that Jesus claimed to be God, the high ranking Jewish officials beleived that Jesus claimed to be God, and the Disciples believed he claimed to be God. John 8:58 common folk, Luke 22:70-71 High ranking Jewish Officials, all I can say about the disciples is they were martyred for their beleifs in Jesus.
John 18:36-37
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, “You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”
Seems like Jesus is king of Heaven. Only other place than Earth according to JWs.[/quote]
OK,who did God ask to sit at His right hand then?
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I’m confused what you guys are arguing. Are the JWs saying they believe Jesus was the Archangel Michael? If this is correct, he sure seemed out of character on earth…
Couldn’t their simply be two people named Michael? I’m sure their are lots of Michael’s in Heaven…
Ultimately though, does it really matter?[/quote]
Actually, this does matter. Angels aren’t objects of worship and should not be, only God. This is one of those core tenants. Jesus’s not being divine would invalidate 2000 years of Christianity. So it’s important.[/quote]
Well, if Jesus was an Angel, wouldn’t he have stumps of cut off wings or something more obvious? The fact that he was born kinda demonstrates he was a man, right?
Or are they talking he was somehow reborn as a human? I’ve never heard of angels being able to do this. I thought once you were an angel, you were angel or fallen angel.[/quote]
Not all angels have wings, so that might be a mute point. I will agree that him being born does make him human. Jesus is 100% Man and 100% God. We see him calling himself the son of Man all the time, and he calls himself the Son of God. How can you be 100% both? You have to be God.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
I always thought the Catholics were good at comparing the Trinity to a clover. You have three distinct leaves on a clover, but they are all part of the clover. You cannot remove one leaf and still have a full clover. No leaf is superior to the others.[/quote]
3 manifestations of one God. For instance, I am a father, a husband, an asshole, and an employee. I am always a dad, I am always a husband, I am always an asshole, and hopefull I will stay an employee. I am 4 manifestations of one pat. God is always the creator, always the Son that relates to us, and always the Holy Spirit who compels us.
Yes this sounds complicated to us, but look at the 4 manifestations of pat…Now imagine I created dogs and had to related to them, so I manifested myself as a dog and had to explain how I can be all those things as a human and still be a dog. That’s similar to God becoming human and trying to explain his reality to us when it doesn’t make sense in our contexts.[/quote]
Technically that description is an old heresy.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
I always thought the Catholics were good at comparing the Trinity to a clover. You have three distinct leaves on a clover, but they are all part of the clover. You cannot remove one leaf and still have a full clover. No leaf is superior to the others.[/quote]
3 manifestations of one God. For instance, I am a father, a husband, an asshole, and an employee. I am always a dad, I am always a husband, I am always an asshole, and hopefull I will stay an employee. I am 4 manifestations of one pat. God is always the creator, always the Son that relates to us, and always the Holy Spirit who compels us.
Yes this sounds complicated to us, but look at the 4 manifestations of pat…Now imagine I created dogs and had to related to them, so I manifested myself as a dog and had to explain how I can be all those things as a human and still be a dog. That’s similar to God becoming human and trying to explain his reality to us when it doesn’t make sense in our contexts.[/quote]
Those are titles, Pat. Add one more to that, you are a Son, right? Your ‘manifestations’ that you gave were all in relation to something else. You are a father to your children, you are a husband to your wife and you are an employee to your company. You would also be a son to your father. These titles intrinsically state that there is others directly involved.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
So Jesus is the highest angel there is. Ok, again your assertion does not change the context of my question of verse 13. So when did God ever tell an angel to sit at his right hand? God never said to an angel sit at my righ hand. This is the entire message of Hebrews 1. Jesus is divine and is God.
By the way the people he was speaking to knows that Jesus is God, so do not try and twist his words.
Jesus is also called Lord of lords, King of Kings, Emanuel God with us. I like that name Emanuel. God with us. God is with us in Jesus Christ. He is God.[/quote]
OK, so who did God ask to sit at His right hand then?
[/quote]
I will take your responses as you have no clue and your interpretations and translations of the Bible are incorrect. Jesus can not be an angel. Jesus has to be the physical incarnation of God. Jesus is 100% Human and 100% God.
You tried to say that the people Hebrews was written for beleived that Jesus was an angel. I would say otherwise. The people believed that Jesus claimed to be God, the high ranking Jewish officials beleived that Jesus claimed to be God, and the Disciples believed he claimed to be God. John 8:58 common folk, Luke 22:70-71 High ranking Jewish Officials, all I can say about the disciples is they were martyred for their beleifs in Jesus.
John 18:36-37
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, “You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”
Seems like Jesus is king of Heaven. Only other place than Earth according to JWs.[/quote]
OK,who did God ask to sit at His right hand then?
[/quote]
His Son, Jesus Christ, who is fully man and fully God. In another Thread I put down the reference to Revelation 5. The elders were praising the one who sits on the throne. When they turned around it was the Lamb who was slain. There is more proof that Jesus is the one who sits on the Throne which makes him God. God gave up his throne in Heaven so that he could become sin for us and bring us back into fellowship with himself. Praise be to God.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
His Son, Jesus Christ, who is fully man and fully God. In another Thread I put down the reference to Revelation 5. The elders were praising the one who sits on the throne. When they turned around it was the Lamb who was slain. There is more proof that Jesus is the one who sits on the Throne which makes him God. God gave up his throne in Heaven so that he could become sin for us and bring us back into fellowship with himself. Praise be to God.[/quote]
2 questions:
Scriptural references please.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]haney1 wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
honest_lifter wrote:
BBriere wrote:
Jesus says specifically “I and the Father are one” and “The Father is in me and I in the Father.” It would be very hard to separate the two if Jesus was one with the Father.
Yes! it would be hard to separate Jesus and God if they were “one” in flesh.
Please notice a similar use of the phrasing, and notice the way Jesus says it:
John 17:11 (NIV
“I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.”
On a practical point, how could someone ‘come’ to someone else if they were the same person?
Also, notice the end of the verse where Jesus prays that his disciples become ‘one’ just like Jesus and His Father are ‘one’.
not to nit pick, but I don’t know of many trinitarians that would attribute this verse to Jesus saying He and the Father are “one” flesh, they would attribute them to being one in essence.
You mean won’t use the verse I used? Or the verse BBriere used?[/quote]
[quote]No trinitarian that I know of attributes the God head to having flesh./quote]
So may I ask what was Jesus when he came to the earth? I know D says that he is God, and no one disagreed. However, that would make him flesh, no?
[/quote]
You can ask that, but I think you have a misconception of the doctrine of the trinity.
Here is the problem the doctrine of the trinity states that Christ in his person is fully human and fully Divine. The human side and the divine side though never mix.
Now to answer my question of the law of non contradiction, The trinity is God is one in essence, but three in person. So while Christ might be God in Flesh, that does not mean the flesh is part of the essence of God. So when Jesus says the Father and I are one. He is stating that the essence of God is one, not the Son personage in flesh is one with the essence.
Short and dirty answer, but I have to step away.
Well, using myself as an example:
I’m an a son, an uncle, and a friend.
Isn’t that a trinity?