About people being tortured consciously eternally, a lot of people use this as ammo to claim God is not just and that God isn’t worthy of these peoples worship because of it.
Now if people are tortured forever or if they burn for a limited time before turning into ash I know God is just and righteous in whatever method he chooses to deal with the unrighteous at the judgment, and that none should want to suffer either scenario.
What do you think of Ezekiel 28 and the demise of Satan, but in Revelation 19-20 the beast and the prophet were still burning for a thousand years when Satan was thrown in there and said they would be tormented forever.
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
<<< Now if people are tortured forever or if they burn for a limited time before turning into ash I know God is just and righteous in whatever method he chooses to deal with the unrighteous at the judgment, >>>[/quote]
I’ll let these guys continue on the specifics here, but this is a noteworthy statement of positively towering profundity and import. You DO know don’t you?
This is the voice of faith people. "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."Mark 10:15. Children believe everything their fathers tell them. Everything. (Santa Claus?) They never suspect Dad is lying or doesn’t know what he’s talking about. When they’re still young it doesn’t so much as occur to them to analyze Dad’s words in case their may be some inconsistency in his counsel. As a father how well I know this awesome responsibility. I see the scowling faces of the T-Nation intelligentsia already. “No wonder these brain dead religious fanatics are so screwed up”
To fully answer the question regarding the “eternal conscious torture” of the lost, it is vital that you not forget this verse: “and time shall be no more”. We will be in an eternal state, there will be no conscious passing of time. The lost will not be sitting there conscious that they have been suffering for 5,000,000,000 years with forever to go. It is a continuous state of simply being - no past, no future. the ever-present, never changing now! The final mercy of God for the lost is that they will not know they have been suffering for any length of time, they will only know that they suffer and why it is that they must suffer.
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Blacksheep has the good word for the day. I am speechless to the knowledge and power our Father God has given you all, Irish, Blacksheep, and Tirib, in your ability to know the word of God. The Holy Spirit is upon you all, and you are blessing me with the word of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Wow. [/quote]
Wow? Are you serious? All I can do is shake my head to that.[/quote]
I do not care what the ignorance of Man thinks. I only care what the triune God thinks, and his word says to encourage my brothers. Irish, Blacksheep, and Tirib are my brothers, and I will continue to encourage them. Thank you brothers, Irish, Blacksheep, and Tirib, for taking up the sword of truth which is the word of God.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
OK - everlasting punishment is not referring to the everlasting condition of being annihilated.
let’s start with the basics: burning with fire does not equal total annihilation.
Daniel 3:19 - Shadrach Meshach and Abed-nego were thrown into a furnace of fire, yet were not consumed. I use this text because it proves conclusively from a biblical perspective that being thrown into a fire does not always equal total annihilation. God controls what is destroyed and what is not destroyed by fire - and this is a story known to all.
Exodus 3:2 - God starts another fire that is specifically mentioned as NOT CONSUMING the thing that was burning - I use this text because it conclusively proves from a biblical perspective that burning alone does not equal total annihilation. God controls what is destroyed and what is not destroyed by fire - and this story is also known to all.
those are just my starting points.
Now, let’s deal with your misconceptions about the torment of the damned:
Revelation 14:9-11 - "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any MAN worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The SAME shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and HE shall be TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: AND THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT ASCENDETH UP FOR EVER AND EVER: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
TORMENT: Greek - “basanizo”; meaning to torture.
The same word is used by the demons in Matthew 8:29 when they complain about Jesus tormenting them before it was time. Clearly they know what awaits them, and what awaits them is found in Revelation 20:10 where it is plainly stated that the devil and his angels “will be tormented day and night forever and ever”.
Revelation 14 clearly shows that those humans who worship the beast and take his mark will be tormented for ever and ever and they will have no rest day or night. Revelation 20 clearly shows that the torment of the devil and his angels will also be forever and ever.
Clearly both groups are cast into the lake of fire and brimstone and their torment will be everlasting and they will have no rest. Now, if they are totally annihilated would they not be at rest? Since they have no rest, they cannot be totally annihilated. Both groups are also tormented for ever and ever. If they are annihilated, then how can they be tormented for ever and ever? their torment would end upon annihilation. Since they ARE tormented for ever and ever and have no rest for ever and ever - they have not been annihilated.
Let’s move on to Matthew 25:41 “And these (goats - the unsaved) shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal”. now at first glance you might think that there is some difference between everlasting and eternal. However, the word for each is exactly the same. Also the word for punishment is the same word as torment - see my points above concerning torment. Thus the balance of the phrasing is easy to see: The lost go to eternal torment and suffering, the righteous go to eternal bliss and happiness. no hint of annihilation here.
Jude 7 - " . . . suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" The word suffering is a present active participle which signifies continuous and ongoing action - in other words, no end. If these lost souls were annihilated their suffering could not be said to be continuing - it would have ended at annihilation.
Let’s move on to Matthew 14:21 where Jesus says of H=Judas the betrayer “But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” Now if annihilation is ceasing to exist, then annihilation can be seen as being in the same state as prior to existence - you don’t exist. How can not existing be worse than not existing? - clearly the punishment of the damned cannot be annihilation - that would be returning to a pre-birth state, no better or worse.
Let’s move on to Matthew 23 - where Jesus tells the Pharisees “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.” How can one annihilation be greater than another? Annihilation is annihilation. Clearly there is something in their punishment worse than that of others - it has to be the level of their torment. This lends itself to plainly understanding that their punishment is not merely annihilation, but everlasting torment to a greater degree of suffering than others.
just one more for now, Matthew 13 - “They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” - the words “will be” are in the future active - there will “continually” be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The plain reading is that their punishment is eternal, their suffering does not end and they have no rest day or night - everlasting conscious punishment in the lake of fire . . .
[/quote]
Your first two examples are weaker than your angel of death examples. The only reason fire did not consume the three Hebrews is because God sent an angel to protect them. Read the account before you give an example like that. The fire was so hot that the person who opened the furnace was killed and once the 3 Hebrews entered into the fire there were four inside the furnace so it’s obvious that God protected them. Using the Daniel account to prove that fire doesn’t consume everything would be the same as saying lions don’t eat people because God protected Daniel when he was thrown in the lions pit.
Your second example of the bush not burning is equaling weak. God obviously prevented the bush from burning so that he could catch Moses’ attention. In both examples you gave the fire didn’t consume what it normally would easily consume because of divine intervention. Both examples are good examples of God’s unlimited power but a poor example to support that fire does not completely destroy.
The rest of your post basically says that since Revelation mentions Satan and the wicked as being tormented forever means that they are alive while they’re being tormented. That’s not the case Irish because when they are thrown into the Lake of Fire and sulphur do you know what it’s called? Is it called the “second life” meaning that’s where the “damned” go to spend the rest of eternity? No the lake of fire where Satan, his demons and the wicked go is called the “SECOND DEATH;” not SECOND LIFE. When they are thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur which means the second death they die. When one hears the word “DEATH” why would anyone think the opposite. There is a reason why they are said to be tormented day and night even though they are dead. The Greek noun basanistes’ related to besanizo occurring at Matthew 18:34 is rendered “jailers” in some translations (AT, Fn, NW; compare Mt 18:30) and “tormentors” or “torturers” in others. (AS, KJ, JB) As you know torture was sometimes used in prisons to obtain information (compare Acts 22:24, 29 which shows that this was done, although basanizo is not used here), so basanistes’ came to be applied to jailers. Regarding its use at Matthew 18:34, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia observed: “Probably the imprisonment itself was regarded as ‘torment’ (as it doubtless was), and the ‘tormentors’ need mean nothing more than jailers.” (Edited by J. Orr, 1960 Vol. V, p. 2999) So the mentioning in Revelation 20:10 of ones who will be “tormented day and night forever and ever” indicates that they will be in a condition of restraint. That a condition of restraint can be spoken of as “torment” is indicated by the parallel accounts at Matthew 8:29 and Luke 8:31.
Most people fail to recognize one of the greatest acts of mercy that God will bestow on humans. That of forgiving and resurrecting all those in the memorial tomb (John 5:28,29) who have paid their Adamic penalty for sinning by dying (Romans 6:23), including the righteous and the unrighteous (Acts 24:15). These ones who die the first death that all humans are subjected to are restrained or jailed in death but their restraint or torment is not forever because all those in the memorial tombs including both the righteous and unrighteous will be relieved of their restraint or torment and be resurrected. People who believe that the wicked go to Hell when they die fail to understand what’s clearly in the Bible.
Furthermore, in the Bible fiery torment is associated with destruction and death. For example, concerning Babylon the Great, the book of Revelation says, “the kings of the earth . . . will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment [Gr., basanismou’].” (Re 18:9,10) As to the meaning of the torment, an angel later explains: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.” (Re 18:21) So, fiery torment here is parallel with destruction, and in the case of Babylon the Great, it is everlasting destruction. Therefore, those who are ‘tormented forever’ (from Gr., basanizo) in the lake of fire undergo “second death” from which there is no resurrection. The related Greek word basanistes’ is translated ‘jailer’ in Matthew 18:34. (RS, NW, ED; compare vs 30.) So those hurled into the lake of fire will be held under restraint, or “jailed,” in death throughout eternity.
[quote]mse2us wrote:
Your first two examples are weaker than your angel of death examples. The only reason fire did not consume the three Hebrews is because God sent an angel to protect them. Read the account before you give an example like that. The fire was so hot that the person who opened the furnace was killed and once the 3 Hebrews entered into the fire there were four inside the furnace so it’s obvious that God protected them. Using the Daniel account to prove that fire doesn’t consume everything would be the same as saying lions don’t eat people because God protected Daniel when he was thrown in the lions pit.
Your second example of the bush not burning is equaling weak. God obviously prevented the bush from burning so that he could catch Moses’ attention. In both examples you gave the fire didn’t consume what it normally would easily consume because of divine intervention. Both examples are good examples of God’s unlimited power but a poor example to support that fire does not completely destroy.
The rest of your post basically says that since Revelation mentions Satan and the wicked as being tormented forever means that they are alive while they’re being tormented. That’s not the case Irish because when they are thrown into the Lake of Fire and sulphur do you know what it’s called? Is it called the “second life” meaning that’s where the “damned” go to spend the rest of eternity? No the lake of fire where Satan, his demons and the wicked go is called the “SECOND DEATH;” not SECOND LIFE. When they are thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur which means the second death they die. When one hears the word “DEATH” why would anyone think the opposite. There is a reason why they are said to be tormented day and night even though they are dead. The Greek noun basanistes’ related to besanizo occurring at Matthew 18:34 is rendered “jailers” in some translations (AT, Fn, NW; compare Mt 18:30) and “tormentors” or “torturers” in others. (AS, KJ, JB) As you know torture was sometimes used in prisons to obtain information (compare Acts 22:24, 29 which shows that this was done, although basanizo is not used here), so basanistes’ came to be applied to jailers. Regarding its use at Matthew 18:34, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia observed: “Probably the imprisonment itself was regarded as ‘torment’ (as it doubtless was), and the ‘tormentors’ need mean nothing more than jailers.” (Edited by J. Orr, 1960 Vol. V, p. 2999) So the mentioning in Revelation 20:10 of ones who will be “tormented day and night forever and ever” indicates that they will be in a condition of restraint. That a condition of restraint can be spoken of as “torment” is indicated by the parallel accounts at Matthew 8:29 and Luke 8:31.
Most people fail to recognize one of the greatest acts of mercy that God will bestow on humans. That of forgiving and resurrecting all those in the memorial tomb (John 5:28,29) who have paid their Adamic penalty for sinning by dying (Romans 6:23), including the righteous and the unrighteous (Acts 24:15). These ones who die the first death that all humans are subjected to are restrained or jailed in death but their restraint or torment is not forever because all those in the memorial tombs including both the righteous and unrighteous will be relieved of their restraint or torment and be resurrected. People who believe that the wicked go to Hell when they die fail to understand what’s clearly in the Bible.
Furthermore, in the Bible fiery torment is associated with destruction and death. For example, concerning Babylon the Great, the book of Revelation says, “the kings of the earth . . . will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment [Gr., basanismou’].” (Re 18:9,10) As to the meaning of the torment, an angel later explains: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.” (Re 18:21) So, fiery torment here is parallel with destruction, and in the case of Babylon the Great, it is everlasting destruction. Therefore, those who are ‘tormented forever’ (from Gr., basanizo) in the lake of fire undergo “second death” from which there is no resurrection. The related Greek word basanistes’ is translated ‘jailer’ in Matthew 18:34. (RS, NW, ED; compare vs 30.) So those hurled into the lake of fire will be held under restraint, or “jailed,” in death throughout eternity.
[/quote]
Did you even bother to read what you wrote, let alone what I wrote? My point with the 3 men from Daniel and the burning bush was quite clear and you alluded to it yourself - FIRE DOES NOT UTTERLY ANNIHILATE IF GOD DEEMS IT SO - God can burn things without them being consumed . . .
as for the rest of your comments - you saying the same thing over and over although you have to put it INTO the text, because it does not originate form it - They were watching the ruining/destructing as it was happening and her burning was it’s torment - the process of destruction was its torment! and in the eternal state, the lost will be tormented eternally - enduring the eternal process of destruction without ever being destroyed! Your reading it - it’s right there . . . but then you add man’s words to Gods
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
OK, picking up where I left off . . .let me deal first with your “proof” texts. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
blacksheep tried to explain this to you, but apparently it didn’t sink in. Now I get to give my long-winded reply.
let’s start with the basic greek: it literally reads “hostis dike tino olethros aionios apo prosopon ho kurios kai apo ho doxa ho ischus autos” - the literal translation is “who’s judgment is to be punished with perpetual ruining away from the face of the Lord and away from the glory of His power.”
first, the phrasing is very specific (Greek is a very specific language!) . . . perpetual ruining . . . the continual state of being ruined. Some translators chose the term destruction and that is fine as well, since it does not alter the intent of the phrase. the intent is to show the continual action of ruining or destruction - not the final state of being destroyed, but the continuous state of being ruined, of being destroyed - the word picture is of the midst of the battle as the army is destroying the city - the action of destruction is continuous - it does not end. So your proof text actually proves just the opposite when seen in the plain text.
Next we come to your use of Acts 24:15 - “that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked”. You get this one right. There will be a resurrection of the wicked and the righteous for the final judgment; but you forgot to include a very important verse: 1 Corinthians 15:35 "For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. ‘O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?’” To be resurrected mortality will have to put on immortality and the perishable will have to become imperishable - wicked and righteous both. How can the immortal be annihilated? - that is not immortality.
more to follow when my fingers have rested. . . .[/quote]
Thessalonians 1:6-10 was not even close to my proof text. Read my whole post before you respond - it wasn’t even that long. Word picture of an army continually destroying a city forever. . . . . ? That makes absolutely no sense. An object let alone a city cannot be destroyed forever. If something is assaulted continuously then it is not destroyed - the term destruction or ruin would not be used. As a matter of fact, if an army took forever to destroy a city or bring it to ruin then this would show the inadequacy of that army and its lack of power. The same could be said for Jesus. If Jesus tried to destroy or bring something to ruin as 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 states and he could not then this would show that Jesus’ lacked sufficient power to bring something to ruin or destruction. That of course is not the case. If Jesus brought about the destruction or ruin of something as 2 Thessalonians states then there would be no doubt that it would be completely and totally destroyed - not in a continually state of destruction.
Your wrong about the wicked being resurrected for the final judgment - they are resurrected way before that. Proof of this is at Luke 23:42, 43 where Jesus said that the evil doer next to him on the torture stake who was wicked, will be with him in paradise. When this evil doer died, his sins were forgiven and he was given a second chance and as Jesus states will be with him in paradise. Notice what the evil doer ask Jesus at verse 42. He doesn’t ask him to remember him on judgment day so he could be favorably judged. No, he ask Jesus to remember him when he got to his kingdom. Jesus’ reply was that he would be with him in PARADISE - not in his heavenly kingdom. Can you see how that verse links Jesus kingdom with paradise? This is what will happen during Jesus’ millennial reign as king of that kingdom I’ve been talking about. During this time the earth will be turned into a paradise which is God’s original purpose. It will be during this time that the wicked such as the evil doer next to Jesus will be resurrected. Satan will be locked away in an abyss during this 1000 year period as stated at Revelation 20:1-4 and the wicked who are resurrected will be given one more chance in a paradise without the influence of Satan.
1 Corinthians 15:35 is talking about the resurrection of the “LITTLE FLOCK” who have the heavenly hope. They are the ones who get a spirit body and as Revelation 20:6 states the SECOND DEATH has no authority over them. Which means, as you stated they are immortal and unlike people who can be destroyed forever by the second death these ones can never be destroyed. One the other hand, the people who will be resurrected to live on earth such as the evil doer next to Jesus will not have an immortal spirit body and they can be thrown in the thrown into the Lake of Fire which means the second death if they don’t prove themselves faithful during Chris millennial reign.
mse2us - you’re not even trying to make sense now . . . you’re misquoting me and adding words to my statements in a vain attempt to make them sound somehow outlandish . . . I say your proof texts - the verses you based your points on. That was not incorrect and I addressed both, not just one.
I did not say the city was being destroyed forever, I said that the picture was of a city BEING destroyed and then in the verse I was explaining, God said that their judgment was a perpetual destruction. You’re not even trying anymore, you’re just throwing random text . . . Did you even try to read my post or are you just jumping to these ridiculous statements intentionally?
Since you jumped to some new verses, let me explain those for you as well.
The thief on the cross: Luke 23:42 - the passage actually reads: kai lego ho Iesous mnaomai mou kurios hotan erchomai en ho basileia sou = and he was saying (continuous action) to Jesus, “remember me, Lord, as soon as you appear in your kingdom!” Three things of note here - first, this was the continual request of the thief to Jesus. He was imploring the Savior to remember him. A clear demonstration of his faith that Jesus would be resurrected. This was his salvation moment - calling upon the name of Jesus. Secondly, he said IN, not INTO, different Greek word. He was asking Jesus to remember him when Jesus appeared at the rapture -a second indication of his faith in the resurrection and that Jesus would be the instrument of that resurrection - an expression of his faith in the Divinity of Jesus - Only God has the power to resurrect the dead. Finally he also refers to YOUR kingdom. There is only one Kingdom and that is God’s - again a direct expression of his faith in Jesus, his Savior and God - the text is so very plain!!! He is saying to Jesus - God, I have faith in you, please remember to resurrect me the moment you appear in your kingdom!!
And now Jesus’ response in verse 43: this verse brings such tears to my eyes - it such a beautiful declaration . . . the greek text: kai epo autos ho Iesous amen lego soi semeron meta emou esomai en ho paradeisos = and saying to him Jesus “firmly I am saying, you on this day with me shall be in paradise.” The syntax is absolutely unquestionably specific in the Greek. There is no second “to” in the verse. But there is the understood negation of the need to remember him, because they would be in paradise together that very day. It reads plainly: and Jesus was saying to him, “I will not need to remember you, because I tell you truthfully, you will be with me on this day in paradise.”
here’s the exchange: The thief was continually saying to Jesus, “God, I have faith in you, please remember to resurrect me the moment you appear in your kingdom.” And Jesus was saying to him, “I will not need to remember you, because I tell you truthfully, you will be with me this very day in paradise.”
again plain text trumps bad doctrine.
1 Corinthians 15:35 - are you even trying to make a legitimate point here? Paul was specifically rebuking the concept that there would be no resurrection at all . . .no mention of the little flock here and i explained the pertinent verse later on in chapter already . . .
so once again, plain text trumps bad doctrine
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
mse2us - you’re not even trying to make sense now . . . you’re misquoting me and adding words to my statements in a vain attempt to make them sound somehow outlandish . . . I say your proof texts - the verses you based your points on. That was not incorrect and I addressed both, not just one.
I did not say the city was being destroyed forever, I said that the picture was of a city BEING destroyed and then in the verse I was explaining, God said that their judgment was a perpetual destruction. You’re not even trying anymore, you’re just throwing random text . . . Did you even try to read my post or are you just jumping to these ridiculous statements intentionally?
Since you jumped to some new verses, let me explain those for you as well.
The thief on the cross: Luke 23:42 - the passage actually reads: kai lego ho Iesous mnaomai mou kurios hotan erchomai en ho basileia sou = and he was saying (continuous action) to Jesus, “remember me, Lord, as soon as you appear in your kingdom!” Three things of note here - first, this was the continual request of the thief to Jesus. He was imploring the Savior to remember him. A clear demonstration of his faith that Jesus would be resurrected. This was his salvation moment - calling upon the name of Jesus. Secondly, he said IN, not INTO, different Greek word. He was asking Jesus to remember him when Jesus appeared at the rapture -a second indication of his faith in the resurrection and that Jesus would be the instrument of that resurrection - an expression of his faith in the Divinity of Jesus - Only God has the power to resurrect the dead. Finally he also refers to YOUR kingdom. There is only one Kingdom and that is God’s - again a direct expression of his faith in Jesus, his Savior and God - the text is so very plain!!! He is saying to Jesus - God, I have faith in you, please remember to resurrect me the moment you appear in your kingdom!!
And now Jesus’ response in verse 43: this verse brings such tears to my eyes - it such a beautiful declaration . . . the greek text: kai epo autos ho Iesous amen lego soi semeron meta emou esomai en ho paradeisos = and saying to him Jesus “firmly I am saying, you on this day with me shall be in paradise.” The syntax is absolutely unquestionably specific in the Greek. There is no “to” in the verse. there is the understood negation of the need to remember him, because they would be in paradise together that very day. It reads plainly and Jesus was saying to him, “I will not need to remember you, because I tell you truthfully, you will be with me on this day in paradise.”
here’s the exchange: The thief was continually saying to Jesus, “God, I have faith in you, please remember to resurrect me the moment you appear in your kingdom.” And Jesus was saying to him, “I will not need to remember you, because I tell you truthfully, you will be with me this very day in paradise.”
again plain text trumps bad doctrine.
1 Corinthians 15:35 - are you even trying to make a legitimate point here? Paul was specifically rebuking the concept that there would be no resurrection at all . . .no mention of the little flock here and i explained the pertinent verse later on in chapter already . . .
so once again, plain text trumps bad doctrine[/quote]
You’re the one who used the bad analogy of a city being destroyed comparing it to the eternal destruction of humans. I just said that it made no sense and does not picture what everlasting destruction means as stated at 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10.
Paul is not going to mention the “little flock” every time he talks about going to heaven. Here is the point that you miss. Jesus said it was a “little flock” at Luke 12:32 and that "Many are invited but few are chosen at Matthew 22:14 which means that the number is limited. Since all of the disciples of Jesus during Paul’s time had the heavenly hope, Paul was talking directly to these people so there was no need to specify that only a "LITTLE FLOCK go to heaven. The fact that Paul doesn’t specifically use the term “LITTLE FLOCK” does not mean that what Jesus stated at Luke 12:32 was not the case. Paul also did not know the final number when he was alive.
The evil doer next to Jesus on the torture stake is a good example of people who have the heavenly hope and those who have the earthly hope. When Jesus said he would remember him why didn’t he say “Truly I tell you, you will sit with me in my kingdom” or something along those lines indicating that he will go to heaven? It’s because the evil doer next to Jesus did not have the privilege of going to heaven and sitting down and ruling with Jesus. Before Jesus died earlier that day, Jesus stated at Luke 22:28-30 to his faithful disciples that he was going to make a covenant with them to sit as his table, in his kingdom on the basis that they stuck with Jesus during his trails which is something the evildoer had never done because clearly he was a criminal who was being executed for his crimes. Also, the evildoer obviously had not been “born again,” of water and spirit, which Jesus stated at John 3:3-6 was a prerequisite to entry into the Kingdom of the heavens.
The evil doer had the earthly hope - not the heavenly hope. Jesus specifically states that he would be with him in Paradise. No where in the Bible is the kingdom of the heavens or heaven synonymous with paradise. In fact the Greek word for paradise - paradeisos means garden like park which is specific to the earth. The evil doer will be among the meek who will inherit the earth as Jesus stated at Matthew 5:5 and will be part of the “other sheep” mentioned at John 10:30. He will be resurrected along with others after Armageddon during Jesus’ millinnial reign when Satan is bound in an abyss for 1000 years. As king of God’s kingdom that will rule over the earth and turn it into a paradise during that 1000 year period, the evil doer will truly be with Jesus in paradise.
A paradise is what God made for the first humans to live in which means it was his original purpose or will. God always succeeds when he sets out to do something as stated at Isaiah 55:8-11. And that success will come in the form of a paradise on earth where humans live forever and the wicked along with Satan will be forever destroyed. This is the paradise Jesus is talking about at Luke 23:39-43.
mse2us - it was not an analogy - it was the explanation of the meaning of the word used for “destruction” in 2 Thessalonians. It is a word picture describing the action of a city BEING destroyed. this is what I actually said:
let’s start with the basic greek: it literally reads “hostis dike tino olethros aionios apo prosopon ho kurios kai apo ho doxa ho ischus autos” - the literal translation is “who’s judgment is to be punished with perpetual ruining away from the face of the Lord and away from the glory of His power.”
first, the phrasing is very specific (Greek is a very specific language!) . . . perpetual ruining . . . the continual state of being ruined. Some translators chose the term destruction and that is fine as well, since it does not alter the intent of the phrase. the intent is to show the continual action of ruining or destruction - not the final state of being destroyed, but the continuous state of being ruined, of being destroyed - the word picture is of the midst of the battle as the army is destroying the city - the action of destruction is continuous - it does not end. So your proof text actually proves just the opposite when seen in the plain text.
plain text trumps your obfuscation . . .
If Paul does not mention the “little flock” you cannot randomly insert it into any old verse you feel like - that is ADDING to God’s Word.
Basic knowledge trumps assumption . . .
Your reference back to Like 12:32 - this is what i said:
Luke 12:32 cannot be read in isolation - again with the concept of context . . . - the verses preceeding clearly identify that the kingdom spoken of by Jesus in verse 32 is the Kingdon of God.
"30For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
32Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom."
now the phrase “little flock” - here we go again . . . you have to keep passage in context (why do I have to keep saying this?). Back up to verse 22 . . . who is Jesus talking to? Notice how he speaks ONLY to them until verse 54 when He once again addresses the crowd? So who is the reference “little flock” applied to? ONLY to the disciples . . . no one else. The phrase “little flock” can only be interpreted as a term of endearment to Jesus’ disciples and no one else.
Plain text trumps bad doctrine . . .
Your reference to the “torture stake”; Thomas spoke twice of the print of the NAILS (PLURAL) in his hands - not nail. John 20:25 totally destroys the concept of Jesus being placed on a torture stake - the torture stake is a device whereby both hands are fastened to the stake overhead by a single nail. The text of John 20:25 clearly states: “The other disciples therefore said unto him We have seen the Lord But he said unto them Except I shall see IN HIS HANDS THE PRINT OF THE NAILS and put my finger into the print OF THE NAILS and thrust my hand into his side I will not believe.” There was only one crucifixion method that required two nails to affix the hands and that was the traditional cross beam method of crucifixion.
Plain text trumps bad doctrine . . .
Your reference to “sitting at his table” (Luke 22:28-30) - Christ literally promises the apostles that they will sit with him at his table (we are all invited to his table) and that they will be judges of the 12 tribes of Israel - nothing in this passage suggests any sort of division of the promise of heaven into two distinct parts. You have to ADD it into the passage - it’s not there.
Plain text trumps bad doctrine . . .
Your reference to Matthew 5 teaching that there are two hopes: CONTEXT!!! CONTEXT!! CONTEXT!!
Verse 3 plainly states: supremely blessed! the destitute of spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven
Verse 4 plainly states: supremely blessed! those who mourn, for they will be comforted
Verse 5 plainly states: supremely blessed! the gentle, for they inherit the land
Verse 6 plainly states: supremely blessed! those who hunger and those who thirst for righteous, for they will be filled
Verse 7 plainly states: supremely blessed! the merciful, for they will obtain mercy
Verse 8 plainly states: supremely blessed! the pure in heart, for they shall see God
Verse 9 plainly states: supremely blessed! the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God
Verse 10 plainly states: supremely blessed! those who have been persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven
Verses 11-12 plainly states: supremely blessed! are you when they revile and persecute you and deceitfully say all evil against you because of me, REJOICE! and be exceedingly glad for great your reward WHICH IS IN HEAVEN for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you!
Now, we have 8 characteristics mentioned here: destitute of spirit, those who mourn, the gentle, the hunger/thirsty for righteousness, the merciful, the pure in heart, the peacemakers, the persecuted. Did anyone see any proscription in there that said one trait could not be shares with another trait? Are we not all supposed to be empty of self, mournful for our sin, gentle in our actions, hungering and thirsting for righteousness, merciful, pure in heart, peacemakers, and willing to bear persecution for our faith?
In order for your interpretation to be right, the traits could not be shared when the CONTEXT and PLAIN TEXT shows that these are traits that we are ALL to share and thus we are ALL recipients of the various rewards listed in connection with each trait. Did you also notice that there were TWO traits listed with the reward of the Kingdom of Heaven - both the destitute of spirit and those who are persecuted. EVERY Believer who is poor of spirit and EVERY Believer who has ever been persecuted for their faith are granted the kingdom of heaven - there is no limit to admission - and Jesus was speaking these words to the whole world!!
Your proof text just kicked your doctrine out the door
Plain text trumps bad doctrine . . . .
I wanted to expound on my explanation for Luke 12 . . .
You view is that the verse proves that the “heavenly kingdom” was given to the “little flock” while the “earthly kingdom” was given to the rest of the believers. Unfortunately for you, Matthew 5 does not provide proof of two kingdoms (see my notes above) instead it proves that the kingdom of Heaven is open to and promised to all believers!!
a few more nails for that coffin . . .
the statement “for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom” clearly refers to the Kingdom of God mentioned immediately prior (CONTEXT!!!).
Was Jesus saying that the heavenly kingdom was only going to be given to the little flock?
BBBUUUZZZZZZZZZ, WRONG!!
It means that the “little flock” of disciples was promised that they would be given the Kingdom of God. What does that mean? It’s their promised reward for seeking the Kingdom of God. Jesus is plainly telling them to not seek after their physical needs and wants, but to seek first the Kingdom of God and not to worry, because it is the pleasure of God to give them access to the Kingdom of God and if He can provide them access to the His Kingdom, he can certainly take care of their earthly needs.
look at the text (CONTEXT!!!):
22And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
23The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.
24Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?
25And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
27Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
30For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
32Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
YOU HAVE TO INTERPRET IN CONTEXT!!! He is plainly teaching them about not being concerned for this world but to actively pursue righteousness and the Kingdom of God FIRST, and God will give them the Kingdom AND take care of all of their needs.
No mention of two hopes, no mention of two kingdoms, absolutely no distinction between types of believers - you have to ADD ALL of that to God’s plain word.
Plain text kicks bad doctrine out the door and down the street . . .
Stated,
“…Romans 6:23 states that the “wages sin pays is death.” Once they have died they have paid their wages of sinning while they were alive and they are given a clean slate. Which is why Romans 6:7 (NIV) states “anyone who has died has been freed from sin.” This is why the wicked as stated at Acts 24:15 will be resurrected. It’s because they have paid the price for sinning by dying so God is going to give them a second chance…”
Negative. To spew such heresy is damnable to those that buy into the above teaching. While it is true that the “the wages of sin is death,” this applies only to the unrighteous. The unrighteous person is a slave to sin, impurity, and lawlessness (Jn. 8:34). Enslaved to sin and Satan, he must live according to the lusts of the flesh and desires of satan (Eph. 2:1-3). The righteous, who possesses salvation in Christ with the accompanying grace of the indwelling Holy Spirit, is set free from the power of sin and immorality (Rom. 6:17-22).
The Bible teaches a resurrection of the unrighteous as well as the righteous dead. The righteous will be resurrected to live forever in their redeemed bodies with the Lord (I Thes. 4:13-18), while the unrighteous will rise to be judged by God (Rev. 20:11-15). There are two, and only two destinies for all humankind (Dan. 12:2; Jn. 5:28-29).
The N.T. does not teach a single general simultaneous resurrection for all the dead. It speaks of a resurrection of many “saints” occuring immediately after Christ’s resurrection (Mat. 27:52-53), of a resurrection occuring at the time of the rapture or catching up of the church by Christ (I Cor. 15:51-52), of a “first resurrection” (Rev. 20:6), and of a resurrection occuring one thousand years after the “first resurrection” (i.e., after the millennial reign of Christ ) which involves all the unrighteous (Rev. 20:11-15).
Those who teach, contrary to Christ and the apostles, that one may have everlasting life while at the same time be out of fellowship with Christ and live an evil life of immorality, lust, drunkenness, or other grave sins of the flesh, are teaching the ultimate deception. It leads them and their followers to trust in a false doctrine of eternal security (I Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:19-21; Eph. 5:5-6). The words of Jesus must be heeded: those who have done evil will come forth “unto the resurrection of damnation” (Jn. 5:29).
“…because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved…God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (II Thes. 2:10-12). There is no second chance.
way to go blacksheep - you posted too many verses and scared them off . . .
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
way to go blacksheep - you posted too many verses and scared them off . . . [/quote]
Where did they go? I told them to stay away from you guys, and only debate me. I am more on their level.
Wow huge thread!
Well I don’t want to start a new thread since this would be the official Trinity thread, so I’ll ask here.
For those that are well educated in the Trinity, is there subordination within it? The Son is same in essence and divinity as the Father, but does he submit to him? Or was that only when Jesus was on earth before we was resurrected and glorified back to his position of authority?
[quote]forbes wrote:
Wow huge thread!
Well I don’t want to start a new thread since this would be the official Trinity thread, so I’ll ask here.
For those that are well educated in the Trinity, is there subordination within it? The Son is same in essence and divinity as the Father, but does he submit to him? Or was that only when Jesus was on earth before we was resurrected and glorified back to his position of authority?[/quote]
Something like that.
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity, is the very cornerstone of the Christian faith. The unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons. Also called the “Godhead”.
Saying that God exists as three persons but is one God means that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have exactly the same nature as God the Father in every way. Whatever attributes and power God the Father has, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit also have.
There are some religions that believe that Jesus Christ is not part of the Trinity and that the “Godhead” does not exist. I think it’s difficult to call these religions “Christian” based on this.
I’m interested to hear what other Christians, or members of other religions have to say on the topic.
Here we go and still no time. As has been said all three persons of the Godhead are equally God, but yes there are roles and relations as well. Gotta go.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Here we go and still no time. As has been said all three persons of the Godhead are equally God, but yes there are roles and relations as well. Gotta go.[/quote]
Can you explain these roles and where i can get more information on it?