Trinity - Bible Teaching or Doctrine of Man

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
701

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

Really? What are the twelve tribes of the church? There has to be a symbolic connection right? The 12,000 and the 12 have to stand for something right? Have you ever found A SINGLE biblical explanation of the 12 tribes of the church? It can’t be the apostles - there are 13 of them. Now what do you do? Can’t you see what you are doing to the plain teaching of the word of God? It was meant to be interpreted literally.
[/quote]

13 apostles?

(NIV) Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.[/quote]

Judas was replaced with Mattias (i might have the name wrong - I’ll look it up) and then we have Paul also an apostle . . . 13, now what?[/quote]

I knew where you were going with this. Matthias was chosen by the 11, and Jesus chose Paul on the road to Damascus. So you might say that Jesus had 14 disciples, if you include Judas in the numbers. Matthias was chosen by the 11 because he was with them when Jesus was with them.

702

Aye - right on - Except that Matthoas was chosen by God through the casting of the lots - so we have 12 apostles (w/Matthias) and Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles. So easily the 12 “Jewish” apostles will be placed as judges of the 12 tribes of Israel.

This still leaves a problem for the JW’s though because now the Bible has identified 12 apostles who will literally judge the 12 tribes of Israel, but there is still no mention of twelve tribes of the church and we now have a new “tribe” of Gentiles . . . there still is no connection between the 12 tribes of Israel and 12 tribes of the church - in fact the book of Revelation made a point of only signifying only 7 churches not 12 . . . . .

703

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Aye - right on - Except that Matthoas was chosen by God through the casting of the lots - so we have 12 apostles (w/Matthias) and Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles. So easily the 12 “Jewish” apostles will be placed as judges of the 12 tribes of Israel.

This still leaves a problem for the JW’s though because now the Bible has identified 12 apostles who will literally judge the 12 tribes of Israel, but there is still no mention of twelve tribes of the church and we now have a new “tribe” of Gentiles . . . there still is no connection between the 12 tribes of Israel and 12 tribes of the church - in fact the book of Revelation made a point of only signifying only 7 churches not 12 . . . . .[/quote]

I agree with you whole heartedly. I forgot about the casting of the lots for Matthias. To a Jew that was the spoken word of God or if the JWs would prefer Jehovah. Casting of Lots is how the land of Israel was separated between the tribes and used all the time. I even tried it with a coin when my girlfriend, now wife, were deciding whether to get married or not. I knew what God would say, but she said if the coin comes up heads I will marry him. It came up heads, she said 2 out of 3. It came up heads 7 times in a row. We let the coin drop to the floor each time. It was rather amazing. Maybe chance, but at the moment it was real.

I really liked your previous post about interpretation. Very good and precise.

704

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Now since the 144,000 is limited to this specific group and this is the only place they are mentioned - it would seem odd that Jesus and the Apostles would tell everyone that they had the opportunity to be a part of that select group if they could not actually be a part of that select group - that’s what we call lying - so obviously the call of salvation is not the same thing as the call of the 144,000 - Or God is a liar.[/quote]
It’s not odd if you understand the purpose of people going to heaven which is to rule with Jesus as kings. So it would only make sense that a select few would have this privilege. At Luke 12:32 Jesus calls the people with the heavenly hope a “LITTLE FLOCK” and at Matthew 22:14 Jesus said that “MANY ARE INVITED BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN.” So at that point the disciples did not know the exact number but they knew the invitation was open to them so they all strove for it. Just because not everyone is chosen does not mean that people won’t try to reach for it. Let me illustrate. Many people would love to work for a company like Apple. When Apple post job listing for several positions, thousands apply to those positions. But since there are only a few open spots most will not get the job. People applying realize that since these positions are open to everyone and there is a limited number of open spots there is a good chance that they won’t get the job. However, people don’t reason that since there are only a few spots open and a lot of people applying that they should not apply. It’s the exact opposite. They’re going to apply and hope that they are chosen. Another example. People who work are usually conscious of the fact that they would like to retire financially secure, but statics show that most people when they retire aren’t financially secure. Just because it’s a statistical fact that most people don’t retire financially secure doesn’t mean that most people won’t strive for it and hope that they’re one of the ones who retire financially secure. It was similar for the Christians in the First Century. They knew that even though they were invited only a few were chosen. But this did not stop them from striving to be part of the “LITTLE FLOCK” who has the heavenly hope.

Also, even though the Christians knew the people going to heaven was going to be limited in number they did not know the exact number until around 90 C.E. when the book of Revelation was written. That was when the exact number of the “LITTLE FLOCK” was finally revealed. So prior to when Revelation was written none of the Bible writers of the Christian-Greek scriptures knew the exact number that would go to heaven. They knew that the invitation was open to them and that it was going to be limited but they didn’t know exactly how limited.

So the apostles striving to be part of the little flock and encouraging other Christians to do the same does not mean that they were lying. They all knew that due to what Jesus said at Luke 12:32 that the people who go to heaven are going to be limited in number and as Jesus said at Matthew 22:14 that athough many were invited, few are chosen, but that didn’t stop them from striving after this special privilege. They also knew that those who are chosen to go to heaven are chosen for one reason only. That reason is to rule with Jesus as kings in God’s kingdom.

705

thanks for re-explaining your doctrine - but you haven’t answered any of the questions . . .

706

While waiting for your answers, I will address your two proof texts and the concept of a limitation on the number who will go to heaven.

Luke 12:32 cannot be read in isolation - again with the concept of context . . . - the verses preceeding clearly identify that the kingdom spoken of by Jesus in verse 32 is the Kingdon of God.

"30For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.

31But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

32Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom."

now the phrase “little flock” - here we go again . . . you have to keep passage in context (why do I have to keep saying this?). Back up to verse 22 . . . who is Jesus talking to? Notice how he speaks ONLY to them until verse 54 when He once again addresses the crowd? So who is the reference “little flock” applied to? ONLY to the disciples . . . no one else.

So you cannot extrapolate a term of endearment for the disciples into a doctrinal statement based on this passage - but, you say, what about Matthew 22!!

Yep, you have problems here too . . . the parable is plaily understood to be a distinction of two types of people - those who have accepted salavation (robes of righteousness/wedding gowns) and those who have not - notice that those without gowns are cast out into darkness, while those with wedding gowns are ALL invited in to stay. There is no disctinction between two types of accepted wedding guests - only one single type.

So when it says “many are called, few are chosen” - it is clearly distinquishing between the open-to-all call to salvation and those who actually accept Christ as their savior. Those who do not accept the invitation are cast into darkness, and those who do are accepted into the feast - plain text trumps bad doctrine yet again . . .

707

Guess who’s comin down my street and is going to hear the true gospel? =]

708

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Guess who’s comin down my street and is going to hear the true gospel? =][/quote]

Let us know how it goes.

709

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Guess who’s comin down my street and is going to hear the true gospel? =][/quote]

Let us know how it goes.[/quote]

much prayer for you!

710

They left without coming to my house =[

Lest our friends here indulge themselves in fantasies of my hoping for an opportunity to denounce and ridicule their beloved organization I assure them such is not the case. God in His most wondrous and immutable providence has used Itsjustme to bring genuine conviction on me about bearing witness of the saving grace of the risen Lord. I would have told them the same thing I told a long time very hurting lady customer this morning.

There is a God who is real and who nailed the penalty for all that’s killing you to His cross. If He can love and save me He can love and save you.

The watchtower wouldn’t even have come up.

711

Stated,

“I completely agree that the wicked may very well be burned with fire when they are destroyed at Armageddon, but that doesn’t mean that once they die they continue to burn forever. Again, since fire was the most destructive force in Bible times, the readers would have thought that whatever was thrown into a fire would have been completely and thoroughly destroyed forever.
Notice what 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (NIV) states: ‘This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.’
Again, evil doers are completely destroyed, forever.”

“Everlasting” (Gk. aionios), is an adjective meaning “eternal, perpetual.” Like its relative aion, aionios is common in the Septuagint (ca. 160 times), and like aion, it is regularly the replacement for the Hebrew olam, “long time, duration, for all time” (in various forms).

The N.T. uses the term aionios about 70 times. In 64 of these instances the word describes God or divine facts concerning His work of salvation and everlasting life (Rom. 16:26; II Cor. 4:18; 5:1; cf. I Tim. 6:16; II Tim. 2:10; Heb. 9:12,14-15; 13:8,20; I Peter 1:25; II Peter 1:11; Rev. 14:6). There is little doubt that the word “eternal” in each of these instances is used in its absolute sense and connotes “endlessness.” Futhermore, in II Corinthians 4:18 the term aionios is used over against proskairos (“temporal,” “that which lasts for only a period”).

Especially noteworthy is that aionios refers to the eternal condition of both the just and the unjust. It speaks of the believers who will not perish, but have everlasting life(John 3:16). But, on not less than seven occasions it denotes the eternal fate and condition of the unjust: eternal damnation and torment (Mat. 18:8; 25:41,46; Mark 3:29; II Thes. 1:9; Heb. 6:2; Jude 7). In one of these instances aionios speaks of the everlasting punishment of the unjust and the eternal life of the just (Mat. 25:46). It is impossible to interpret aionios as the eternal existence and glory of the believers, while interpreting the punishment of the ungodly in temporal terms. The thought that aionios should have such an essential difference within the same verse is so unreasonable that it should not have to be disproved. Evidently the word “eternal” in these 7 places carries the same absolute meaning of “endlessness” as in the other 64 places. To separate these meanings from each other in order to eliminate or weaken the teachings of Scripture concerning the eternal punishment of hell violates the truth.

712

^ thanks blacksheep - i would have eventually dealt with that statement, but I doubt I could have been as concise and well-written.

713

Blacksheep has the good word for the day. I am speechless to the knowledge and power our Father God has given you all, Irish, Blacksheep, and Tirib, in your ability to know the word of God. The Holy Spirit is upon you all, and you are blessing me with the word of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Wow.

714

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
Venom? I learned it from you…I learned it by watching you (remember that 80’s drug commercial). In all seriousness, the angel that killed 185,000 soldiers in one night was able to do that because he is a powerful spirit being. That just shows how much higher and more powerful spirit being are than humans. Again, none of the scriptures that you used above prove that death is literally thrown into a lake of fire like you said several post ago. And Proverbs 16:14 is not even talking about an angel, it’s talking about a king who let’s his anger cause him to sentence someone to death which was quite common for kings to do throughout history. Solomon is saying that a wise man will not let his anger get the best of him and put someone to death.

Death is not a spiritual element or tangible object. According to Romans 5:12 death is due to the sin of Adam which was passed on to all of his descendants. Death caused imperfection and in this imperfect state humans die. There will be a time when humans are perfect and the last trace of Adam’s sin will be gone. When this happens death caused by Adams sin will be gone. This is illustrated by being symbolically thrown into a lake of fire.

[/quote]

The angel who brings death to 145,000 people is an angel of death. Here is the angel, he does an action, 145,000 people die - he is the agent of death and he is an angel, thus he is an angel of death.

Proverbs 16 clearly states that the wrath of the King is Angels of Death - it can be no plainer than the fact that God himself is comparing the wrath of a righteous king to the actions of angels of death . . . it’s right there.

Saying that death entered the world as the result of man’s actions is not the same thing as identifying what death is - it’s merely stating its origin in this world.

Revelation is my proof text that death and hell will both be literally thrown into the lake of fire. - as with all of our discussion, this comes down to interpretation - your man-inspired interpretation versus my plain-text interpretation. See my post above concerning your lack of interpretation standards.

You were told to interpret that passage symbolically, and so you do. and then you were told that other passages where literal and you accepted that. and then you were told that sections of literal passages where also symbolic and you accepted that. Your standard of interpretation of what is symbolic and what is literal is whatever you are told by men. Christians come to the scriptures with no preconceptions except that it is meant to be interpreted literally - a consistent whole throughout. No random change of interpretation standard based on the whims of some men - but one single consistent standard throughout.

You cannot see past this most critical point of all.

The doctrines you hold were created by men, men who act in the same manner and believe the same things that the Sadducees believed. They then adopted rules of interpretation and created their own version of the Bible to support their doctrines. They added and removed words from the Inspired word of God to make it fit their doctrine - a clear violation of scripture.

Let me prove this very plainly - the same text that states there are 144,000 is interpreted by you both literally (there are 144,000) and symbolically (they are not literally 12,000 from the 12 twelve tribes - the actual source justification/calculation of the 144,000 number). How much plainer could God have made it for you. He tells you there are 144,000 - you readily accept that number is to be understood literally. He then tells you that there are 144,000 of them based on there being 12,000 of them from each of the 12 tribes of Israel - and you readily ignore the very LITERAL source of the 144,000 calling His explanation of their origin as being symbolic of the church.

Really? What are the twelve tribes of the church? There has to be a symbolic connection right? The 12,000 and the 12 have to stand for something right? Have you ever found A SINGLE biblical explanation of the 12 tribes of the church? It can’t be the apostles - there are 13 of them. Now what do you do? Can’t you see what you are doing to the plain teaching of the word of God? It was meant to be interpreted literally.

Your use of symbolic interpretation of the same passage as part literal and part symbolic - where does that come from? Man. Why can’t it be the other way around, why can’t it all be symbolic? Later on in the same book the 144,000 are mentioned as being undefiled by women - a clear reference to their male identity and the fact that they are virgins. literal or symbolic? based on what?

What is your standard for choosing literal versus symbolic interpretation? as I have said before - it is based on whether or not it agrees with the doctrines taught to you by men - the exact reverse of what God tells us to do in the Bible - we are supposed to test the teachers by the word, not the word by the teachers . . .[/quote]
Irish you just don’t know how to interprete the book of Revelation. Yes the book of Revelation is part symbolic and part literal. Saying that once you interprete parts of Revelation as either symbolic or literal then you have to stick with which ever you choose is like saying that since Jesus primarly taught using symbolic illustrations then everything that came out of Jesus’ mouth is symbolic. There are many books of the Bible that have a mixture of symbolic and literal parts. The books of Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Peter, all of the Gospels to name a few have symbolic language throughout. Should those books be understood as completely symbolic as well? Of course not.

Irish, how would you interpret Revelation 12:3,4 which states: “3 And another sign was seen in heaven, and, look! a great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and upon its heads seven diadems; 4 and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. . . .” Should this verse be taken literally or symbolically and what does it mean?

715

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
Venom? I learned it from you…I learned it by watching you (remember that 80’s drug commercial). In all seriousness, the angel that killed 185,000 soldiers in one night was able to do that because he is a powerful spirit being. That just shows how much higher and more powerful spirit being are than humans. Again, none of the scriptures that you used above prove that death is literally thrown into a lake of fire like you said several post ago. And Proverbs 16:14 is not even talking about an angel, it’s talking about a king who let’s his anger cause him to sentence someone to death which was quite common for kings to do throughout history. Solomon is saying that a wise man will not let his anger get the best of him and put someone to death.

Death is not a spiritual element or tangible object. According to Romans 5:12 death is due to the sin of Adam which was passed on to all of his descendants. Death caused imperfection and in this imperfect state humans die. There will be a time when humans are perfect and the last trace of Adam’s sin will be gone. When this happens death caused by Adams sin will be gone. This is illustrated by being symbolically thrown into a lake of fire.

[/quote]

The angel who brings death to 145,000 people is an angel of death. Here is the angel, he does an action, 145,000 people die - he is the agent of death and he is an angel, thus he is an angel of death.

Proverbs 16 clearly states that the wrath of the King is Angels of Death - it can be no plainer than the fact that God himself is comparing the wrath of a righteous king to the actions of angels of death . . . it’s right there.

Saying that death entered the world as the result of man’s actions is not the same thing as identifying what death is - it’s merely stating its origin in this world.

Revelation is my proof text that death and hell will both be literally thrown into the lake of fire. - as with all of our discussion, this comes down to interpretation - your man-inspired interpretation versus my plain-text interpretation. See my post above concerning your lack of interpretation standards.

You were told to interpret that passage symbolically, and so you do. and then you were told that other passages where literal and you accepted that. and then you were told that sections of literal passages where also symbolic and you accepted that. Your standard of interpretation of what is symbolic and what is literal is whatever you are told by men. Christians come to the scriptures with no preconceptions except that it is meant to be interpreted literally - a consistent whole throughout. No random change of interpretation standard based on the whims of some men - but one single consistent standard throughout.

You cannot see past this most critical point of all.

The doctrines you hold were created by men, men who act in the same manner and believe the same things that the Sadducees believed. They then adopted rules of interpretation and created their own version of the Bible to support their doctrines. They added and removed words from the Inspired word of God to make it fit their doctrine - a clear violation of scripture.

Let me prove this very plainly - the same text that states there are 144,000 is interpreted by you both literally (there are 144,000) and symbolically (they are not literally 12,000 from the 12 twelve tribes - the actual source justification/calculation of the 144,000 number). How much plainer could God have made it for you. He tells you there are 144,000 - you readily accept that number is to be understood literally. He then tells you that there are 144,000 of them based on there being 12,000 of them from each of the 12 tribes of Israel - and you readily ignore the very LITERAL source of the 144,000 calling His explanation of their origin as being symbolic of the church.

Really? What are the twelve tribes of the church? There has to be a symbolic connection right? The 12,000 and the 12 have to stand for something right? Have you ever found A SINGLE biblical explanation of the 12 tribes of the church? It can’t be the apostles - there are 13 of them. Now what do you do? Can’t you see what you are doing to the plain teaching of the word of God? It was meant to be interpreted literally.

Your use of symbolic interpretation of the same passage as part literal and part symbolic - where does that come from? Man. Why can’t it be the other way around, why can’t it all be symbolic? Later on in the same book the 144,000 are mentioned as being undefiled by women - a clear reference to their male identity and the fact that they are virgins. literal or symbolic? based on what?

What is your standard for choosing literal versus symbolic interpretation? as I have said before - it is based on whether or not it agrees with the doctrines taught to you by men - the exact reverse of what God tells us to do in the Bible - we are supposed to test the teachers by the word, not the word by the teachers . . .[/quote]
Irish you just don’t know how to interprete the book of Revelation. Yes the book of Revelation is part symbolic and part literal. Saying that once you interprete parts of Revelation as either symbolic or literal then you have to stick with which ever you choose is like saying that since Jesus primarly taught using symbolic illustrations then everything that came out of Jesus’ mouth is symbolic. There are many books of the Bible that have a mixture of symbolic and literal parts. The books of Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Peter, all of the Gospels to name a few have symbolic language throughout. Should those books be understood as completely symbolic as well? Of course not.

Irish, how would you interpret Revelation 12:3,4 which states: “3 And another sign was seen in heaven, and, look! a great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and upon its heads seven diadems; 4 and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. . . .” Should this verse be taken literally or symbolically and what does it mean?[/quote]

like i said - you don’t understand the difference between figurative language and symbolic interpretation . . .

716

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated,

“I completely agree that the wicked may very well be burned with fire when they are destroyed at Armageddon, but that doesn’t mean that once they die they continue to burn forever. Again, since fire was the most destructive force in Bible times, the readers would have thought that whatever was thrown into a fire would have been completely and thoroughly destroyed forever.
Notice what 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (NIV) states: ‘This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.’
Again, evil doers are completely destroyed, forever.”

“Everlasting” (Gk. aionios), is an adjective meaning “eternal, perpetual.” Like its relative aion, aionios is common in the Septuagint (ca. 160 times), and like aion, it is regularly the replacement for the Hebrew olam, “long time, duration, for all time” (in various forms).

The N.T. uses the term aionios about 70 times. In 64 of these instances the word describes God or divine facts concerning His work of salvation and everlasting life (Rom. 16:26; II Cor. 4:18; 5:1; cf. I Tim. 6:16; II Tim. 2:10; Heb. 9:12,14-15; 13:8,20; I Peter 1:25; II Peter 1:11; Rev. 14:6). There is little doubt that the word “eternal” in each of these instances is used in its absolute sense and connotes “endlessness.” Futhermore, in II Corinthians 4:18 the term aionios is used over against proskairos (“temporal,” “that which lasts for only a period”).

Especially noteworthy is that aionios refers to the eternal condition of both the just and the unjust. It speaks of the believers who will not perish, but have everlasting life(John 3:16). But, on not less than seven occasions it denotes the eternal fate and condition of the unjust: eternal damnation and torment (Mat. 18:8; 25:41,46; Mark 3:29; II Thes. 1:9; Heb. 6:2; Jude 7). In one of these instances aionios speaks of the everlasting punishment of the unjust and the eternal life of the just (Mat. 25:46). It is impossible to interpret aionios as the eternal existence and glory of the believers, while interpreting the punishment of the ungodly in temporal terms. The thought that aionios should have such an essential difference within the same verse is so unreasonable that it should not have to be disproved. Evidently the word “eternal” in these 7 places carries the same absolute meaning of “endlessness” as in the other 64 places. To separate these meanings from each other in order to eliminate or weaken the teachings of Scripture concerning the eternal punishment of hell violates the truth. [/quote]
I completely agree Blacksheep. The unrighteous who die at armageddon are punished forever just like the faithful at Armageddon have the hope of everlasting, endless life. That punishment is eternal death or as 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 puts it everlasting destruction which last forever and they have no hope of coming back from it. So yes the unrighteous are punished forever. This is what you don’t understand though. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 is talking specifically about Armageddon and when those who God deems unrighteous will be thrown directly into the Lake of Fire which means the second death. Again, their punishment is a punishment that will last forever, as you so eloquently pointed out and it’s because they are dead forever. Now this is the part that you and everyone else who believes in hell doesn’t get. People who are wicked that die before Armageddon aren’t dead forever. They are not eternally punished. The Bible clearly states this. Act 24:15 (NIV) states: “15 and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.” Both the wicked and the righteous will be resurrected. The evildoer who was next to Jesus on the torture stake at Luke 23:43, Jesus told him that he will be with him in PARADISE. Jesus said at John 5:28, 29 that “ALL those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out.” How is it that ALL, including the wicked, will hear Jesus’ voice and be resurrected? It’s because according to Romans 5:12 through Adam sin and death was passed on to all of us which is why Romans 6:23 states that the “wages sin pays is death.” Once they have died they have paid their wages of sinning while they were alive and they are given a clean slate. Which is why Romans 6:7 (NIV) states “anyone who has died has been freed from sin.” This is why the wicked as stated at Acts 24:15 will be resurrected. It’s because they have paid the price for sinning by dying so God is going to give them a second chance which will be after Armageddon, on earth, when God’s kingdom is ruling over earth without the influence of Satan because as Revelation 20:1-3 states he will be locked away.

Do you understand what the second death is in connection to the Lake of Fire mentioned at Revelation? All humans are subjected to the first death. There is absolutely nothing anyone can do to escape it. We inherit this from Adam due to no fault of our own but it is a price we all must pay. Hebrews 9:27 states that it is reserved for all men to die once. That is the first death. But once one has died he is released from that penalty (Romans 6:23) which is why the wicked are going to be resurrected. The second death however is symbolized by a fire that will never be put out. This means that when one is part of the second death, there is no hope of coming back from it meaning he will be gone forever. His punishment is everlasting because his destruction or death is everlasting. Unlike the death inherited from Adam that can be paid for by dying, there is no way to ever come back from the second death. That is why Satan is thrown in the Lake of fire as well as death and Hades (or Hell KJV). There will be a time when Satan, the Adamic death and the Hades which means the grave is gone forever. The people in bible times would have completely understood anytime death was used in connection with fire such as a furnace or a lake of fire it meant complete destruction. Since fire was the most destructive force in their day they would have understood that anything consumed by fire would be completely destroyed and when they heard the term Lake of Fire that is never put out they would have understood that anything in it has no hope of ever escaping.

So believing in Hell is what violates truth. Because as the KJV states at Revelation 20:14 HELL is thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur which means the second and this means that HELL will be destroyed forever. So if Hell is destroyed then people can not be eternally punished in it.

717

OK - everlasting punishment is not referring to the everlasting condition of being annihilated.

let’s start with the basics: burning with fire does not equal total annihilation.

Daniel 3:19 - Shadrach Meshach and Abed-nego were thrown into a furnace of fire, yet were not consumed. I use this text because it proves conclusively from a biblical perspective that being thrown into a fire does not always equal total annihilation. God controls what is destroyed and what is not destroyed by fire - and this is a story known to all.

Exodus 3:2 - God starts another fire that is specifically mentioned as NOT CONSUMING the thing that was burning - I use this text because it conclusively proves from a biblical perspective that burning alone does not equal total annihilation. God controls what is destroyed and what is not destroyed by fire - and this story is also known to all.

those are just my starting points.

Now, let’s deal with your misconceptions about the torment of the damned:

Revelation 14:9-11 - "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any MAN worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The SAME shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and HE shall be TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: AND THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT ASCENDETH UP FOR EVER AND EVER: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

TORMENT: Greek - “basanizo”; meaning to torture.

The same word is used by the demons in Matthew 8:29 when they complain about Jesus tormenting them before it was time. Clearly they know what awaits them, and what awaits them is found in Revelation 20:10 where it is plainly stated that the devil and his angels “will be tormented day and night forever and ever”.

Revelation 14 clearly shows that those humans who worship the beast and take his mark will be tormented for ever and ever and they will have no rest day or night. Revelation 20 clearly shows that the torment of the devil and his angels will also be forever and ever.

Clearly both groups are cast into the lake of fire and brimstone and their torment will be everlasting and they will have no rest. Now, if they are totally annihilated would they not be at rest? Since they have no rest, they cannot be totally annihilated. Both groups are also tormented for ever and ever. If they are annihilated, then how can they be tormented for ever and ever? their torment would end upon annihilation. Since they ARE tormented for ever and ever and have no rest for ever and ever - they have not been annihilated.

Let’s move on to Matthew 25:41 “And these (goats - the unsaved) shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal”. now at first glance you might think that there is some difference between everlasting and eternal. However, the word for each is exactly the same. Also the word for punishment is the same word as torment - see my points above concerning torment. Thus the balance of the phrasing is easy to see: The lost go to eternal torment and suffering, the righteous go to eternal bliss and happiness. no hint of annihilation here.

Jude 7 - " . . . suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" The word suffering is a present active participle which signifies continuous and ongoing action - in other words, no end. If these lost souls were annihilated their suffering could not be said to be continuing - it would have ended at annihilation.

Let’s move on to Matthew 14:21 where Jesus says of H=Judas the betrayer “But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” Now if annihilation is ceasing to exist, then annihilation can be seen as being in the same state as prior to existence - you don’t exist. How can not existing be worse than not existing? - clearly the punishment of the damned cannot be annihilation - that would be returning to a pre-birth state, no better or worse.

Let’s move on to Matthew 23 - where Jesus tells the Pharisees “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.” How can one annihilation be greater than another? Annihilation is annihilation. Clearly there is something in their punishment worse than that of others - it has to be the level of their torment. This lends itself to plainly understanding that their punishment is not merely annihilation, but everlasting torment to a greater degree of suffering than others.

just one more for now, Matthew 13 - “They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” - the words “will be” are in the future active - there will “continually” be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The plain reading is that their punishment is eternal, their suffering does not end and they have no rest day or night - everlasting conscious punishment in the lake of fire . . .

718

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Blacksheep has the good word for the day. I am speechless to the knowledge and power our Father God has given you all, Irish, Blacksheep, and Tirib, in your ability to know the word of God. The Holy Spirit is upon you all, and you are blessing me with the word of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Wow. [/quote]
Wow? Are you serious? All I can do is shake my head to that.

719

OK, picking up where I left off . . .let me deal first with your “proof” texts. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

blacksheep tried to explain this to you, but apparently it didn’t sink in. Now I get to give my long-winded reply.

let’s start with the basic greek: it literally reads “hostis dike tino olethros aionios apo prosopon ho kurios kai apo ho doxa ho ischus autos” - the literal translation is “who’s judgment is to be punished with perpetual ruining away from the face of the Lord and away from the glory of His power.”

first, the phrasing is very specific (Greek is a very specific language!) . . . perpetual ruining . . . the continual state of being ruined. Some translators chose the term destruction and that is fine as well, since it does not alter the intent of the phrase. the intent is to show the continual action of ruining or destruction - not the final state of being destroyed, but the continuous state of being ruined, of being destroyed - the word picture is of the midst of the battle as the army is destroying the city - the action of destruction is continuous - it does not end. So your proof text actually proves just the opposite when seen in the plain text.

Next we come to your use of Acts 24:15 - “that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked”. You get this one right. There will be a resurrection of the wicked and the righteous for the final judgment; but you forgot to include a very important verse: 1 Corinthians 15:35 "For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. ‘O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?’” To be resurrected mortality will have to put on immortality and the perishable will have to become imperishable - wicked and righteous both. How can the immortal be annihilated? - that is not immortality.

more to follow when my fingers have rested. . . .

720

You’ve got me goin now. I’m gonna have to dig out my koine Greek books, a couple of which I do still have. I need to get my voices, tenses and moods etc. tuned up. All that stuff acutely affects what is being said as well. That was not only profoundly useful, but also very satisfying and a lotta fun.