Trinity - Bible Teaching or Doctrine of Man

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
681

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
We try to reason with people; to help them reach a conclusion. [/quote]

So you twist what the scripture says to get them to reach your conclusion? This is what we are trying to show you. This is why we continue to bring up the history of the JWs. We want people to see where the JW is leading them. All of the JW questions are loaded questions. JWs twist the scripture to fit what they beleive, and gear quesitons to lead people to the answer the JWs are wanting to hear. JWs do not follow what Jesus taught his disciples, and then those disciples passed down that teaching to the next generation and so on and so forth, and yes even included in the Bible. Interpreting the Bible without the Holy Spirit leading is false teaching. This is where the trinity really comes into play.

682

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

To the people in Bible times, fire and heat was the most destructive force. When Jesus used the term fiery furnace where the unrighteous are thrown at Matthew 13, he didn’t mean that there was a big furnace somewhere where unrighteous people go. The furnace symbolizes not a literal furnace but that who every is thrown into the furnace is completely destroyed and have no hope of coming back unlike the people who die an Adamic death. And his listeners would have understood this since fire was the most destructive force they would have understood that Jesus using the term fiery furnace meant complete and eternal destruction which is what the readers when Revelation was written would have understood when they encountered the lake of fire and sulphur.[/quote]

The people of the time also understood what happened to the chaff once separated from the seed. The chaff was burned literally in the fire. This is what the people understood.

You might want to read more sources about the people of Bible times from other places than the WatchTower, or any other source recommended by the WatchTower.[/quote]

Instead of just disagreeing just to disagree, why don’t you tell mse2us how death can literally be burned? Offer an alternative to what we have to say. [/quote]

You might have wanted to quote Irish and not myself. I was showing the interpretation of what people of the time were actually thinking. I was showing that the people understood that when the wheat were separated from the chaff, the chaff was literally burned. The people understood that there would be a horrible existence after death if they did not follow Jesus. You just do not become dust.[/quote]

You are right about quoting Irish. Sorry about that. However, since you mention it, how did the people understand that there would be a horrible existence after death by using a fire? What information at that point could they reflect upon to draw that conclusion?[/quote]

We have been through this. Over and Over. [/quote]

I would hope this should suffice, but I am afraid it won’t.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 18:8
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire

Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Luke 3:9
Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.�¢??

John 15:6
If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell[1] of fire.

Matthew 23:33
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Mark 9:43
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell,[1] to the unquenchable fire.

[/quote]

How would the people before Jesus know that they were going to burn in a fire? All the scriptures you quoted were from the Greek Scriptures, nothing from the Hebrew Scriptures.[/quote]

And this would make it invalid, how exactly?

683

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
<<< Interpreting the Bible without the Holy Spirit leading is false teaching. >>>[/quote]
Especially when you take as a foundational rule of interpretation the idea that if you can’t understand it it can’t be true.

684

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

Since you have already identified a literal interpretation of Revelation is the right method of interpretation, then the 144,000 of Revelation are exactly who the books says they are 12,000 literal people from each of the 12 literal tribes of Israel (Rev 7). And not only that but they are all men and all literal virgins (Rev 14). So, if you are not a virgin Jewish male who has accepted Christ - you cannot be one of the 144,00. Nor are the 144,000 ever identified as kings of heaven. Now since the 144,000 is limited to this specific group and this is the only place they are mentioned - it would seem odd that Jesus and the Apostles would tell everyone that they had the opportunity to be a part of that select group if they could not actually be a part of that select group - that’s what we call lying - so obviously the call of salvation is not the same thing as the call of the 144,000 - Or God is a liar.[/quote]
No, the 12 tribes are not the literal 12 tribes of Israel mentioned at Numbers chapter 1 and are not natural born Jews. Two reasons. First, due to the Israelite disobedience and their rejection of Jesus, God rejects them as a group. Jesus says this at Matthew 21:43 that “the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing its fruits.” The special relationship they had with God ended with the death of Jesus. So the 144,000 standing with Jesus in heaven with the name of Jesus and his father on their foreheads mentioned at Revelation 14 are not the physical descendants of Abraham who rejected Jesus. Second, the 12 tribes mentioned at Revelation 7 aren’t the original 12 tribes of Israel listed at Numbers chapter 1 that are the descendants of Abraham which shows that they aren’t natural born Jews.

If they aren’t natural born descendants of Abraham then why are they referred as the 12 tribes of Israel? That’s because the disciples of Jesus who were invited to rule with Jesus became SPIRITUAL ISRAEL. I’ll try to explain. The Israelites, of all the nations of the earth had a special relationship with God; they were his special property (Exodus 19:5,6). So much so that God is called their husbandly owner at Jeremiah 3:14. When God rejected the Israelites the disciples of Jesus now had that special relationship with God that Israel once had. The disciples of Jesus became God’s special property. 1 Peter 2:9 states that the disciples of Jesus are a “chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.” Here Peter quoted what had been said to natural Israel at Exodus 19:5,6 and applied it to the disciples of Jesus, saying that they are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.” Notice what Romans 2:28, 29 states: “For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.” The passage shows that ones doesn’t have to be a physical Jew who is physically circumcised like the descendants of Abraham to be considered a Jew to God but by spirit one can be considered a Jew to God. Galatians 3:28, 29 states something similar: There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. That passage is saying that one doesn’t have to be a physical descendant of Abraham to be considered Abraham’s seed.

Although they were not physical Israelites, they became spiritual Israelites because they now had the same special relationship with God that the Israelites once had becoming his special possession like the Israelites were. And it was by spirit as brought out at Romans 2:29 that made them spiritual Israelites.

Bible writers at times referred to the other disciples of Jesus as “12 tribes.” Acts 26:7 states: “whereas our TWELVE TRIBES are hoping to attain to the fulfillment of this promise by intensely rendering him sacred service night and day. Concerning this hope I am accused by Jews, O king.”

James 1:1 states: “James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the TWELVE TRIBES that are scattered about: Greetings!”

Those two verses directly above and what I wrote above them show that the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel mentioned at Revelation 7 are not the physical descendants of Abraham who became the nation of Israel. They are made up of Jesus’ disciples who became the Christians.

685

Well, first of all, Acts 26:7 is specifically referring to the twelve tribes of Israel as Paul defends himself against the accusations of the Jews before Agrippa - so you’re wrong on that one (what is it with context that you guys can’t seem to grasp?)

And James 1:1’s greeting is to Jewish Christians scattered by the diaspora - he is literally writing to the Christians of the literal scattered 12 tribes - The Christians were (as a group) never scattered abroad - but the 12 tribe sof Israel were. Again context and literal interpretation ='s once again, plain scripture trumps bad interpretation.

So, it stands that the 12 tribes of Israel in Revelation 7 are as literal as the number of 144,000 in the same passage, as well as the fact that they are virgin males (Rev 14)

The 144,000 are virgins Jewish males who are NEVER referred to as kings in Revelation and thus the call to salvation is NOT a call for the 144,000 . . . . try again

686

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

To the people in Bible times, fire and heat was the most destructive force. When Jesus used the term fiery furnace where the unrighteous are thrown at Matthew 13, he didn’t mean that there was a big furnace somewhere where unrighteous people go. The furnace symbolizes not a literal furnace but that who every is thrown into the furnace is completely destroyed and have no hope of coming back unlike the people who die an Adamic death. And his listeners would have understood this since fire was the most destructive force they would have understood that Jesus using the term fiery furnace meant complete and eternal destruction which is what the readers when Revelation was written would have understood when they encountered the lake of fire and sulphur.[/quote]

The people of the time also understood what happened to the chaff once separated from the seed. The chaff was burned literally in the fire. This is what the people understood.

You might want to read more sources about the people of Bible times from other places than the WatchTower, or any other source recommended by the WatchTower.[/quote]

Instead of just disagreeing just to disagree, why don’t you tell mse2us how death can literally be burned? Offer an alternative to what we have to say. [/quote]

Sure- can you define what death actually is and how it is accomplished? No?

Can you prove that there is not a quantum particle of death that separates life (define that too, if you can) from the body? No?

Is there not an angel of Death (an angel that literally brings death)? Yes

Then the possibility that there is a literal thing called death that can be literally destroyed by God does exist. There is no impossibility in literally destroying death.[/quote]
Can you prove from the Bible any of the statements you made above? Espescially there being an angel of death.

Yes I can define what death is. It’s the penalty that was given to Adam that caused his body to deterriorate over time and eventually caused the cells in his body to stop regenerating. When the penalty was given to Adam at Genesis 3:19, God said that Adam would return back to dust from which he came. God didn’t say he was going to send an angel to end Adam’s life when it was time for him to die.

Quantum particle of death? LOL! Are you serious? Again, show me from the Bible not from a theological point of view.

687

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

Since you have already identified a literal interpretation of Revelation is the right method of interpretation, then the 144,000 of Revelation are exactly who the books says they are 12,000 literal people from each of the 12 literal tribes of Israel (Rev 7). And not only that but they are all men and all literal virgins (Rev 14). So, if you are not a virgin Jewish male who has accepted Christ - you cannot be one of the 144,00. Nor are the 144,000 ever identified as kings of heaven. Now since the 144,000 is limited to this specific group and this is the only place they are mentioned - it would seem odd that Jesus and the Apostles would tell everyone that they had the opportunity to be a part of that select group if they could not actually be a part of that select group - that’s what we call lying - so obviously the call of salvation is not the same thing as the call of the 144,000 - Or God is a liar.[/quote]
No, the 12 tribes are not the literal 12 tribes of Israel mentioned at Numbers chapter 1 and are not natural born Jews. Two reasons. First, due to the Israelite disobedience and their rejection of Jesus, God rejects them as a group. Jesus says this at Matthew 21:43 that “the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing its fruits.” The special relationship they had with God ended with the death of Jesus. So the 144,000 standing with Jesus in heaven with the name of Jesus and his father on their foreheads mentioned at Revelation 14 are not the physical descendants of Abraham who rejected Jesus. Second, the 12 tribes mentioned at Revelation 7 aren’t the original 12 tribes of Israel listed at Numbers chapter 1 that are the descendants of Abraham which shows that they aren’t natural born Jews.

If they aren’t natural born descendants of Abraham then why are they referred as the 12 tribes of Israel? That’s because the disciples of Jesus who were invited to rule with Jesus became SPIRITUAL ISRAEL. I’ll try to explain. The Israelites, of all the nations of the earth had a special relationship with God; they were his special property (Exodus 19:5,6). So much so that God is called their husbandly owner at Jeremiah 3:14. When God rejected the Israelites the disciples of Jesus now had that special relationship with God that Israel once had. The disciples of Jesus became God’s special property. 1 Peter 2:9 states that the disciples of Jesus are a “chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.” Here Peter quoted what had been said to natural Israel at Exodus 19:5,6 and applied it to the disciples of Jesus, saying that they are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.” Notice what Romans 2:28, 29 states: “For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.” The passage shows that ones doesn’t have to be a physical Jew who is physically circumcised like the descendants of Abraham to be considered a Jew to God but by spirit one can be considered a Jew to God. Galatians 3:28, 29 states something similar: There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. That passage is saying that one doesn’t have to be a physical descendant of Abraham to be considered Abraham’s seed.

Although they were not physical Israelites, they became spiritual Israelites because they now had the same special relationship with God that the Israelites once had becoming his special possession like the Israelites were. And it was by spirit as brought out at Romans 2:29 that made them spiritual Israelites.

Bible writers at times referred to the other disciples of Jesus as “12 tribes.” Acts 26:7 states: “whereas our TWELVE TRIBES are hoping to attain to the fulfillment of this promise by intensely rendering him sacred service night and day. Concerning this hope I am accused by Jews, O king.”

James 1:1 states: “James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the TWELVE TRIBES that are scattered about: Greetings!”

Those two verses directly above and what I wrote above them show that the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel mentioned at Revelation 7 are not the physical descendants of Abraham who became the nation of Israel. They are made up of Jesus’ disciples who became the Christians.[/quote]

James 1:1 actually reads:
a James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,

To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:

Greetings.

Honestly, none of this sounds forced to you?

688

[quote]mse2us wrote:
Can you prove from the Bible any of the statements you made above? Espescially there being an angel of death.

Yes I can define what death is. It’s the penalty that was given to Adam that caused his body to deterriorate over time and eventually caused the cells in his body to stop regenerating. When the penalty was given to Adam at Genesis 3:19, God said that Adam would return back to dust from which he came. God didn’t say he was going to send an angel to end Adam’s life when it was time for him to die.

Quantum particle of death? LOL! Are you serious? Again, show me from the Bible not from a theological point of view.[/quote]

Why is it that I have to do all of your heavy lifting for you - have you honestly never studied the scriptures apart form what the Watchtower tells you? Have you never just picked up a Bible and read it for yourself?

Does not the Bible plainly state, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth”? Are we not commanded to “be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men”? Were not the Bereans commended because they “they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so”?

You see the heart of the matter between Chirstian doctrine and JW doctrine is the principle of interpretation - we interpret scripture literally - you admittedly do not. You use literal interpretation when it suits you and allegorical/symbolic when it doesn’t - there are no set rules of your intepretational style. It is HUMAN whim - not biblical standard - that sets the foundation of JW doctrine. This is the point that we have been trying to make to you time and time again. It’s why you do not have an answer for our Biblical proof other than to say, “that’s not how we interpret it.” Yes, we know - that’s the point!!

Can you even name a single Hermenuetical rule? How do you know when to use literal or allegorical interpretation? I’ll tell you your standard - it’s when the literal meaning does not fit with JW doctrine. JW’s do not have a set standard by which they can consistently interpret scripture other than JW Doctrine! You chose allegorical/symbolic - when a plain reading of the text assures you that it should be understood literally - because the Watchtower said to - and that’s the only reason you have . . . . But we know that the ENTIRE Bible should be read and interpreted literally!

HUMAN decision is the guiding factor of JW interpretation - NOT the Bible itself.

I can tell someone how to interpret the Bible literally - and that individual with only the guidance of the Holy Spirit will come to the same doctrinal conclusions EVERYTIME! I can tell 10 people how to intepret the Bible literally - and all 10 with just the aid of the Holy Spirit will ALL come the the same doctirnal conclusions. I can tell 1,000,000 people how to intepret the Bible literally - and all 1,000,000 with just the aid of the Holy Spirit will ALL come the the same doctirnal conclusions.

You cannot point someone to scripture and WITHOUT THE WATCHTOWER’S TEACHINGS have them arrive at your doctrinal position - the Watchtower has supplanted biblical authority with HUMAN authority . . . and my Bible says “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. . . . . . But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me IS NOT AFTER MAN. For I neither RECEIVED IT OF MAN, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.”

Let me ask you one question - who sets the rule for knowing when to apply symbolic interpretation versus literal interpretation? And in that answer you will have your answer for who is the higher authority in JW doctrine - the Bible or man . . . .

It’s the difference between letting the Bible speak for itself or telling it what to say . . .

689

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
Can you prove from the Bible any of the statements you made above? Espescially there being an angel of death.

Yes I can define what death is. It’s the penalty that was given to Adam that caused his body to deterriorate over time and eventually caused the cells in his body to stop regenerating. When the penalty was given to Adam at Genesis 3:19, God said that Adam would return back to dust from which he came. God didn’t say he was going to send an angel to end Adam’s life when it was time for him to die.

Quantum particle of death? LOL! Are you serious? Again, show me from the Bible not from a theological point of view.[/quote]

Why is it that I have to do all of your heavy lifting for you - have you honestly never studied the scriptures apart form what the Watchtower tells you? Have you never just picked up a Bible and read it for yourself?

Does not the Bible plainly state, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth”? Are we not commanded to “be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men”? Were not the Bereans commended because they “they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so”?

You see the heart of the matter between Chirstian doctrine and JW doctrine is the principle of interpretation - we interpret scripture literally - you admittedly do not. You use literal interpretation when it suits you and allegorical/symbolic when it doesn’t - there are no set rules of your intepretational style. It is HUMAN whim - not biblical standard - that sets the foundation of JW doctrine. This is the point that we have been trying to make to you time and time again. It’s why you do not have an answer for our Biblical proof other than to say, “that’s not how we interpret it.” Yes, we know - that’s the point!!

Can you even name a single Hermenuetical rule? How do you know when to use literal or allegorical interpretation? I’ll tell you your standard - it’s when the literal meaning does not fit with JW doctrine. JW’s do not have a set standard by which they can consistently interpret scripture other than JW Doctrine! You chose allegorical/symbolic - when a plain reading of the text assures you that it should be understood literally - because the Watchtower said to - and that’s the only reason you have . . . . But we know that the ENTIRE Bible should be read and interpreted literally!

HUMAN decision is the guiding factor of JW interpretation - NOT the Bible itself.

I can tell someone how to interpret the Bible literally - and that individual with only the guidance of the Holy Spirit will come to the same doctrinal conclusions EVERYTIME! I can tell 10 people how to intepret the Bible literally - and all 10 with just the aid of the Holy Spirit will ALL come the the same doctirnal conclusions. I can tell 1,000,000 people how to intepret the Bible literally - and all 1,000,000 with just the aid of the Holy Spirit will ALL come the the same doctirnal conclusions.

You cannot point someone to scripture and WITHOUT THE WATCHTOWER’S TEACHINGS have them arrive at your doctrinal position - the Watchtower has supplanted biblical authority with HUMAN authority . . . and my Bible says “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. . . . . . But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me IS NOT AFTER MAN. For I neither RECEIVED IT OF MAN, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.”

Let me ask you one question - who sets the rule for knowing when to apply symbolic interpretation versus literal interpretation? And in that answer you will have your answer for who is the higher authority in JW doctrine - the Bible or man . . . .

It’s the difference between letting the Bible speak for itself or telling it what to say . . .[/quote]
LOL! Everything you wrote above is fluff. I didn’t ask you to give me an elaborate explaination about proving there is an “angel of death” and “quantum particle of death.” I just said show me scripture to prove it. You don’t have to go into great detail like I do. All you have to do is list scriptures from the Bible. It’s easy if it’s in the Bible and it doesn’t require a lot of “heavy lifting.”

You have a lot of nerve saying that I want you to do the “heavy lifting.” You demand that I address your points. I don’t complain. You yourself are the one that said “we are having a discussion,” so I answered most of your points in detail using many scriptures. Now when I ask you to just show me scriptures to prove a statement you made, you go on this long tirade that has nothing to do with what I asked you. You crack me up! Again, show me scriptures from the Bible to prove your statements.

690

Can you prove conclusively that death is not something that can be literaly thrown?

691

keep you hat on - i’m getting to it - sheesh, impatient much? You guys have yet to respond to the vast majority of my posts and you get bent out of shape because i don’t respond to one question fast enough for you . . .good grief . . .

angel of death in scripture: 2 Kings 19:35, “ha-mashhit” (the destroyer) in Exodus 12:23, the “mal’ak ha-mashhit” (destroying angel) in 2 Samuel 24:15, and the “memitim” (linked to the mal’ak habbalah - destroying angels) in Job 33:22, and the “mal’ake ha-mawet” (angels of death) in Proverbs 16:14 . . .

692

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
<<< I can tell someone how to interpret the Bible literally - and that individual with only the guidance of the Holy Spirit will come to the same doctrinal conclusions EVERYTIME! I can tell 10 people how to intepret the Bible literally - and all 10 with just the aid of the Holy Spirit will ALL come the the same doctirnal conclusions. I can tell 1,000,000 people how to intepret the Bible literally - and all 1,000,000 with just the aid of the Holy Spirit will ALL come the the same doctirnal conclusions. >>>[/quote]
Oh my Lord, the horrific error that has been spawned when prideful men fail to grasp this principle. Of course he’s going to say that’s because YOU are telling them how to interpret it missing the Holy Spirit part, which Dmaddox brought up altogether. He is the Spirit of truth and will not lead the new man in Christ to heretical views of His own Word.

693

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
keep you hat on - i’m getting to it - sheesh, impatient much? You guys have yet to respond to the vast majority of my posts and you get bent out of shape because i don’t respond to one question fast enough for you . . .good grief . . .

angel of death in scripture: 2 Kings 19:35, “ha-mashhit” (the destroyer) in Exodus 12:23, the “mal’ak ha-mashhit” (destroying angel) in 2 Samuel 24:15, and the “memitim” (linked to the mal’ak habbalah - destroying angels) in Job 33:22, and the “mal’ake ha-mawet” (angels of death) in Proverbs 16:14 . . .
[/quote]
Are you serious! You’re not even close! I usually don’t say WOW, but this is a WOW moment. So you’re saying that the angel of God that God sent to protect the Israelites and fight for them at 2 Kings 19:35 and the angel God sent to kill Egypts first born in Exodus 12:23 is the angel of Death that visits everyone before they die and is eventually pitched into the Lake of Fire? This is the furthest from the truth. Unbelievable! No where are any angels referred to as angels of death and especially the two angels mentioned at 2 Kings and Exodus 12 who were faithfully carrying out God’s orders. God uses angels to execute divine judgement against those who God judges unfit to live. This is not the death that is thrown into the lake of fire and sulpher. The death that’s is removed by being symbolically destroyed by being thrown in the Lake of fire is the Adamic death that we inherited from Adam that causes one to grow old and die. That’s what going to be removed forever so that man is no longer a slave to death.

Job 33:22 is not talking about an angel of death nor is Proverbs 16:14. Job 33:22-26 is a prophecy about Jesus ransom sacrifice and what it will do for humans after Armageddon. Due to Jesus sacrifice, humans will no longer have to go to the pit or grave and they will return to thier youthful vigor. Proverbs 16:14 is in no way talking about an angel. It’s talking about when a king, due to his anger orders a death sentence andin effect becomes a messenger of death, but in contrast the verse says the “wise man” or wise king does not do this.

Again, you know a lot less than you think you know and using those verses to try to prove your point is the perfect example because they aren’t even close to what’s Revelation 20:14 is talking about.

694

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
keep you hat on - i’m getting to it - sheesh, impatient much? You guys have yet to respond to the vast majority of my posts and you get bent out of shape because i don’t respond to one question fast enough for you . . .good grief . . .

angel of death in scripture: 2 Kings 19:35, “ha-mashhit” (the destroyer) in Exodus 12:23, the “mal’ak ha-mashhit” (destroying angel) in 2 Samuel 24:15, and the “memitim” (linked to the mal’ak habbalah - destroying angels) in Job 33:22, and the “mal’ake ha-mawet” (angels of death) in Proverbs 16:14 . . .
[/quote]
Are you serious! You’re not even close! I usually don’t say WOW, but this is a WOW moment. So you’re saying that the angel of God that God sent to protect the Israelites and fight for them at 2 Kings 19:35 and the angel God sent to kill Egypts first born in Exodus 12:23 is the angel of Death that visits everyone before they die and is eventually pitched into the Lake of Fire? This is the furthest from the truth. Unbelievable! No where are any angels referred to as angels of death and especially the two angels mentioned at 2 Kings and Exodus 12 who were faithfully carrying out God’s orders. God uses angels to execute divine judgement against those who God judges unfit to live. This is not the death that is thrown into the lake of fire and sulpher. The death that’s is removed by being symbolically destroyed by being thrown in the Lake of fire is the Adamic death that we inherited from Adam that causes one to grow old and die. That’s what going to be removed forever so that man is no longer a slave to death.

Job 33:22 is not talking about an angel of death nor is Proverbs 16:14. Job 33:22-26 is a prophecy about Jesus ransom sacrifice and what it will do for humans after Armageddon. Due to Jesus sacrifice, humans will no longer have to go to the pit or grave and they will return to thier youthful vigor. Proverbs 16:14 is in no way talking about an angel. It’s talking about when a king, due to his anger orders a death sentence andin effect becomes a messenger of death, but in contrast the verse says the “wise man” or wise king does not do this.

Again, you know a lot less than you think you know and using those verses to try to prove your point is the perfect example because they aren’t even close to what’s Revelation 20:14 is talking about.[/quote]

my word, the venom just spews out of people today . . . where is all of that hate coming from?

Never heard of “orginal languages”?

2 Kings 19:35 - did not this angel kill 145,000 soldiers in a single night? and you do not see this angel as an angel of death? What was he, the angel of tickling and puppy dog licks? If having the power to kill 145,000 humans in one night does not qualify you for being an angel of death, what is the requirement? 200,000?

Exodus 12:23 - God will not suffer the destroyer to some into your houses to smite you - who do you think that destroyer was? After all, we just saw one angel kill 145,000 during an evening stroll - who do you suppose God was using to carry out these deaths?

2 Samuel 24:15 - the “pestilence” here is the same word as the “destroyer” of Exodus 12:23 except now identifed as the destroying angel, the same rationale applies - God sends the destroying angel out and he kills 70,000 people in one day.

Job 33:22 - again the word for destroyers is a derivative of the same word used in the previous two examples excpet now in the plural form - ie more than one destroyer.

Proverbs 16:14 - “messengers of death” - “are not his angels meesengers of fire” - the strongest connection there can be angels of death because they are actually called “angels of death” - it can’t be any clearer than that.

and then you make the strangest leap of reasoning ever - I never said the angels of death themselves would be cast into a lake of fire - the Bible says that death will cast into the lake of fire. death itself, the agent that causes separation of the body and soul, that spiritual element will itself be litrally destroyed in a lake of fire - and good riddance.

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[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

To the people in Bible times, fire and heat was the most destructive force. When Jesus used the term fiery furnace where the unrighteous are thrown at Matthew 13, he didn’t mean that there was a big furnace somewhere where unrighteous people go. The furnace symbolizes not a literal furnace but that who every is thrown into the furnace is completely destroyed and have no hope of coming back unlike the people who die an Adamic death. And his listeners would have understood this since fire was the most destructive force they would have understood that Jesus using the term fiery furnace meant complete and eternal destruction which is what the readers when Revelation was written would have understood when they encountered the lake of fire and sulphur.[/quote]

The people of the time also understood what happened to the chaff once separated from the seed. The chaff was burned literally in the fire. This is what the people understood.

You might want to read more sources about the people of Bible times from other places than the WatchTower, or any other source recommended by the WatchTower.[/quote]
I completely agree that the wicked may very well be burned with fire when they are destroyed at Armageddon, but that doesn’t mean that once they die they continue to burn forever. Again, since fire was the most destructive force in Bible times, the readers would have thought that whatever was thrown into a fire would have been completely and thoroughly destroyed forever.
Notice what 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (NIV) states: “This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.”
Again, evil doers are completely destroyed, forever.

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[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
keep you hat on - i’m getting to it - sheesh, impatient much? You guys have yet to respond to the vast majority of my posts and you get bent out of shape because i don’t respond to one question fast enough for you . . .good grief . . .

angel of death in scripture: 2 Kings 19:35, “ha-mashhit” (the destroyer) in Exodus 12:23, the “mal’ak ha-mashhit” (destroying angel) in 2 Samuel 24:15, and the “memitim” (linked to the mal’ak habbalah - destroying angels) in Job 33:22, and the “mal’ake ha-mawet” (angels of death) in Proverbs 16:14 . . .
[/quote]
Are you serious! You’re not even close! I usually don’t say WOW, but this is a WOW moment. So you’re saying that the angel of God that God sent to protect the Israelites and fight for them at 2 Kings 19:35 and the angel God sent to kill Egypts first born in Exodus 12:23 is the angel of Death that visits everyone before they die and is eventually pitched into the Lake of Fire? This is the furthest from the truth. Unbelievable! No where are any angels referred to as angels of death and especially the two angels mentioned at 2 Kings and Exodus 12 who were faithfully carrying out God’s orders. God uses angels to execute divine judgement against those who God judges unfit to live. This is not the death that is thrown into the lake of fire and sulpher. The death that’s is removed by being symbolically destroyed by being thrown in the Lake of fire is the Adamic death that we inherited from Adam that causes one to grow old and die. That’s what going to be removed forever so that man is no longer a slave to death.

Job 33:22 is not talking about an angel of death nor is Proverbs 16:14. Job 33:22-26 is a prophecy about Jesus ransom sacrifice and what it will do for humans after Armageddon. Due to Jesus sacrifice, humans will no longer have to go to the pit or grave and they will return to thier youthful vigor. Proverbs 16:14 is in no way talking about an angel. It’s talking about when a king, due to his anger orders a death sentence andin effect becomes a messenger of death, but in contrast the verse says the “wise man” or wise king does not do this.

Again, you know a lot less than you think you know and using those verses to try to prove your point is the perfect example because they aren’t even close to what’s Revelation 20:14 is talking about.[/quote]

my word, the venom just spews out of people today . . . where is all of that hate coming from?

Never heard of “orginal languages”?

2 Kings 19:35 - did not this angel kill 145,000 soldiers in a single night? and you do not see this angel as an angel of death? What was he, the angel of tickling and puppy dog licks? If having the power to kill 145,000 humans in one night does not qualify you for being an angel of death, what is the requirement? 200,000?

Exodus 12:23 - God will not suffer the destroyer to some into your houses to smite you - who do you think that destroyer was? After all, we just saw one angel kill 145,000 during an evening stroll - who do you suppose God was using to carry out these deaths?

2 Samuel 24:15 - the “pestilence” here is the same word as the “destroyer” of Exodus 12:23 except now identifed as the destroying angel, the same rationale applies - God sends the destroying angel out and he kills 70,000 people in one day.

Job 33:22 - again the word for destroyers is a derivative of the same word used in the previous two examples excpet now in the plural form - ie more than one destroyer.

Proverbs 16:14 - “messengers of death” - “are not his angels meesengers of fire” - the strongest connection there can be angels of death because they are actually called “angels of death” - it can’t be any clearer than that.

and then you make the strangest leap of reasoning ever - I never said the angels of death themselves would be cast into a lake of fire - the Bible says that death will cast into the lake of fire. death itself, the agent that causes separation of the body and soul, that spiritual element will itself be litrally destroyed in a lake of fire - and good riddance.[/quote]
Venom? I learned it from you…I learned it by watching you (remember that 80’s drug commercial). In all seriousness, the angel that killed 185,000 soldiers in one night was able to do that because he is a powerful spirit being. That just shows how much higher and more powerful spirit being are than humans. Again, none of the scriptures that you used above prove that death is literally thrown into a lake of fire like you said several post ago. And Proverbs 16:14 is not even talking about an angel, it’s talking about a king who let’s his anger cause him to sentence someone to death which was quite common for kings to do throughout history. Solomon is saying that a wise man will not let his anger get the best of him and put someone to death.

Death is not a spiritual element or tangible object. According to Romans 5:12 death is due to the sin of Adam which was passed on to all of his descendants. Death caused imperfection and in this imperfect state humans die. There will be a time when humans are perfect and the last trace of Adam’s sin will be gone. When this happens death caused by Adams sin will be gone. This is illustrated by being symbolically thrown into a lake of fire.

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[quote]mse2us wrote:
Venom? I learned it from you…I learned it by watching you (remember that 80’s drug commercial). In all seriousness, the angel that killed 185,000 soldiers in one night was able to do that because he is a powerful spirit being. That just shows how much higher and more powerful spirit being are than humans. Again, none of the scriptures that you used above prove that death is literally thrown into a lake of fire like you said several post ago. And Proverbs 16:14 is not even talking about an angel, it’s talking about a king who let’s his anger cause him to sentence someone to death which was quite common for kings to do throughout history. Solomon is saying that a wise man will not let his anger get the best of him and put someone to death.

Death is not a spiritual element or tangible object. According to Romans 5:12 death is due to the sin of Adam which was passed on to all of his descendants. Death caused imperfection and in this imperfect state humans die. There will be a time when humans are perfect and the last trace of Adam’s sin will be gone. When this happens death caused by Adams sin will be gone. This is illustrated by being symbolically thrown into a lake of fire.

[/quote]

The angel who brings death to 145,000 people is an angel of death. Here is the angel, he does an action, 145,000 people die - he is the agent of death and he is an angel, thus he is an angel of death.

Proverbs 16 clearly states that the wrath of the King is Angels of Death - it can be no plainer than the fact that God himself is comparing the wrath of a righteous king to the actions of angels of death . . . it’s right there.

Saying that death entered the world as the result of man’s actions is not the same thing as identifying what death is - it’s merely stating its origin in this world.

Revelation is my proof text that death and hell will both be literally thrown into the lake of fire. - as with all of our discussion, this comes down to interpretation - your man-inspired interpretation versus my plain-text interpretation. See my post above concerning your lack of interpretation standards.

You were told to interpret that passage symbolically, and so you do. and then you were told that other passages where literal and you accepted that. and then you were told that sections of literal passages where also symbolic and you accepted that. Your standard of interpretation of what is symbolic and what is literal is whatever you are told by men. Christians come to the scriptures with no preconceptions except that it is meant to be interpreted literally - a consistent whole throughout. No random change of interpretation standard based on the whims of some men - but one single consistent standard throughout.

You cannot see past this most critical point of all.

The doctrines you hold were created by men, men who act in the same manner and believe the same things that the Sadducees believed. They then adopted rules of interpretation and created their own version of the Bible to support their doctrines. They added and removed words from the Inspired word of God to make it fit their doctrine - a clear violation of scripture.

Let me prove this very plainly - the same text that states there are 144,000 is interpreted by you both literally (there are 144,000) and symbolically (they are not literally 12,000 from the 12 twelve tribes - the actual source justification/calculation of the 144,000 number). How much plainer could God have made it for you. He tells you there are 144,000 - you readily accept that number is to be understood literally. He then tells you that there are 144,000 of them based on there being 12,000 of them from each of the 12 tribes of Israel - and you readily ignore the very LITERAL source of the 144,000 calling His explanation of their origin as being symbolic of the church.

Really? What are the twelve tribes of the church? There has to be a symbolic connection right? The 12,000 and the 12 have to stand for something right? Have you ever found A SINGLE biblical explanation of the 12 tribes of the church? It can’t be the apostles - there are 13 of them. Now what do you do? Can’t you see what you are doing to the plain teaching of the word of God? It was meant to be interpreted literally.

Your use of symbolic interpretation of the same passage as part literal and part symbolic - where does that come from? Man. Why can’t it be the other way around, why can’t it all be symbolic? Later on in the same book the 144,000 are mentioned as being undefiled by women - a clear reference to their male identity and the fact that they are virgins. literal or symbolic? based on what?

What is your standard for choosing literal versus symbolic interpretation? as I have said before - it is based on whether or not it agrees with the doctrines taught to you by men - the exact reverse of what God tells us to do in the Bible - we are supposed to test the teachers by the word, not the word by the teachers . . .

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[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

Really? What are the twelve tribes of the church? There has to be a symbolic connection right? The 12,000 and the 12 have to stand for something right? Have you ever found A SINGLE biblical explanation of the 12 tribes of the church? It can’t be the apostles - there are 13 of them. Now what do you do? Can’t you see what you are doing to the plain teaching of the word of God? It was meant to be interpreted literally.
[/quote]

13 apostles?

(NIV) Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

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[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

Really? What are the twelve tribes of the church? There has to be a symbolic connection right? The 12,000 and the 12 have to stand for something right? Have you ever found A SINGLE biblical explanation of the 12 tribes of the church? It can’t be the apostles - there are 13 of them. Now what do you do? Can’t you see what you are doing to the plain teaching of the word of God? It was meant to be interpreted literally.
[/quote]

13 apostles?

(NIV) Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.[/quote]

Judas was replaced with Mattias (i might have the name wrong - I’ll look it up) and then we have Paul also an apostle . . . 13, now what?

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the point is that there are not twelve tribes of the church . . . . and the answer for the 12 judges of the twelve tribes of Israel is an easy one . . .