Trinity - Bible Teaching or Doctrine of Man

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
661

[quote]mse2us wrote:
<<< So I honestly don’t know if Paul knew that his letter would be copied and passed among the different congregations and made part of the Biblical Canon because no where in his letters does he state that they should be passed amoung the congregations of that time. I would have to do research to answer that question. >>>[/quote]
We do know that Peter knew that Paul was penning divinely authoritative writings. Telling his readers in 2 Peter 3:15-16

[quote]15> and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16> also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.[/quote]
If Peter knew Paul knew. THE writings, “scriptures”, by definition are to be preserved for all time. I’m addressing only that. Paul knew he was writing scripture with the same authority as the then extant Hebrew writings referred to by Peter as “the rest of the scriptures”.

Peter even ascribes a high majesty to them saying in essence I’ll tell ya, that brother writes some stuff that dips right into the divine mysteries, “hard to understand”.

662

[quote]mse2us wrote:
That’s a good question. When Paul wrote letters to the individual congregations he was obviously writing to that particular congregation to offer further guidance and to address specific issues that had arisen. For example, in a lot of his letters he address individual’s by name and specific problem that they were having. So I honestly don’t know if Paul knew that his letter would be copied and passed among the different congregations and made part of the Biblical Canon because no where in his letters does he state that they should be passed amoung the congregations of that time. I would have to do research to answer that question.

But it doesn’t matter. Even if he wrote the letters for future Christians, that still doesn’t change the fact that people go to heaven for a specific reason which is to rule with Jesus in his kingdom and the “little flock” is limited in number. The first century Christians of the apostles day weren’t the only ones who had the heavenly hope; they were the first ones invited.
The invitation was open to future Christians down until our day until the number of 144,000 is complete.

You should be impressed. I explained that without a wall of text:)[/quote]

You failed to understand the question - are Pual’s letters intended by God to be read by the entire church - the answer is yes. So any invitation is open to all believers who read the Bible. You failed to tie this in with the question I asked about the 144,000 . . .

663

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Plain scripture trumps your poor understanding.
[/quote]

are you actually equating your church’s teaching with sctripture? really?

664

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
Don’t just say I’m wrong explain using the Bible how I’m wrong and how my explanation destroyed my doctrine.

All of Paul’s letters were written to the first century Christians congregation and as I said in my post they were the first to be invited to heaven to rule with Jesus as kings so they all pressed toward that hope. The fact that Jesus calls it a “little flock” show that although the heavenly hope, which is to rule with Jesus in his kingdom, is open to everyone not all are chosen. As a matter of fact, this is exactly what Jesus said at Matthew 22:1-14. In this passage Jesus uses an illustration to explain what the kingdom of the heavens is like. At the end of the illustration at verse 14 he states: “For there are many invited, but few chosen.”
I’ll use a current example to explain verse 14. Take the popular show American Idol for instance. Millions are invited to audition but out of the millions that do audition only a few are chosen to be on the show. The heavenly hope is open to all but not everyone is chosen for the special privilege to rule with Jesus in his kingdom.

Entertaining? LOL! Like I said before, you know a heck of a lot less than you think you know.[/quote]

I will answer this with a single question - Was Paul ONLY writing to the Christians of his day?[/quote]
That’s a good question. When Paul wrote letters to the individual congregations he was obviously writing to that particular congregation to offer further guidance and to address specific issues that had arisen. For example, in a lot of his letters he address individual’s by name and specific problem that they were having. So I honestly don’t know if Paul knew that his letter would be copied and passed among the different congregations and made part of the Biblical Canon because no where in his letters does he state that they should be passed amoung the congregations of that time. I would have to do research to answer that question.

But it doesn’t matter. Even if he wrote the letters for future Christians, that still doesn’t change the fact that people go to heaven for a specific reason which is to rule with Jesus in his kingdom and the “little flock” is limited in number. The first century Christians of the apostles day weren’t the only ones who had the heavenly hope; they were the first ones invited.
The invitation was open to future Christians down until our day until the number of 144,000 is complete.

You should be impressed. I explained that without a wall of text:)[/quote]

Paul may greet and thank people, but the only letters written to specific people are Timothy and Titus. These are significant as they outline the requirements for priests/ ministers.

The letter’s part of the Biblical cannon. If you believe the bible was divinely inspired, then the letter belong whether or not Paul had that intention.

If you truly beleive 144000 in Revelation, then you must also believe all the spots are taken for they for Jews only. You nor I belong to any of the 12 tribes.

Matthew 13:47
The Parable of the Net
‘Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind.’

Matthew 18:3
and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

Matthew 18:4
Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:14
but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

Luke 6:23
Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets.

2 Corinthians 5:1

Our Heavenly Dwelling
For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,

Ephesians 2:4-7
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even t when we were dead in our trespasses, u made us alive together with Christâ??v by grace you have been savedâ?? 6 and raised us up with him and w seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom

1 Peter 1:4
to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,

No where is this limited to a mere 144,000. Revelation isn’t the only book, nor is it the most authoritative. The Gospels trump all.

665

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Let me spare you a wall of text - Revelation is to be interpreted literally or symbolically - it cannot be both.
[/quote]
Again, you’re wrong. There are literal parts of Revelation that can be taken literally and there are symbolic parts that represent something other than what’s stated but still has a meaning. I’ll give you two more examples.

Revelation 20:1-4 states that Satan is bound and thrown into an abyss for 1000 years so he will no longer mislead the nations. This is literally going to happen. After Armageddon Satan will be locked away for 1000 years so he won’t be able to influence and mislead. This is the time of Christ millennial reign that I’m sure you’ve heard of. This is when the people who have the heavenly hope will rule with Jesus as stated at Revelation 20:4,6. During this time the survivors of Armageddon will be left over and the people who have died and payed their price for sinning(Romans 6:23) will be resurrected. This will include the righteous and the unrighteous (Acts 24:15) such as the evil doer who was impaled next to Jesus that Jesus told will be with him in paradise. During this 1000 year period, without the influence of Satan and his demons, the earth will be turned into a Paradise and people will have the opportunity to live forever on earth which is God’s original purpose for humans.

Another example is at Revelation 20:14 which states that Death and Hades (or HELL KJV) will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and Sulphur. This verse, although symbolic has a meaning. The Bible mentions at several places that “Death” will be gone forever. Isaiah 25:8 states that God will “swallow up death forever,” and 1 Corinthians 15:26 states that the "last enemy death is to be brought to nothing. This is symbolized by death being thrown into a lake of fire and sulphur which symbolizes eternal destruction. Also, Hades or Hell which I’m sure you know means mankind’s common grave, is thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur. This too is eternally destroyed. With death “swallowed up forever” or “brought to nothing” there will no longer ever be a need for a grave. The Christians of that day would have immediately understood that a lake of fire and sulphur represented eternal destruction and that whatever was in the lake would be completely destroyed. After death and hades is thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur then Revelation 21:4 states that “death is no more.” Death is no more because it has been swallowed up forever by being thrown into the symbolic lake of fire and sulphur which symbolized eternal destruction.

That’s what I mean when I say that there are literal parts of Revelation and symbolic parts of Revelation. In the first example, the passage is to be taken literally and in the second example, the passage is symbolic but does have a meaning.

666

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
While you’re scratching your head over the fact that you still do not understand the differences between figurative language and symbolic interpretation, let me deal with your generic definition and use of “parousia”

Greek Word that is used 24 times in the Greek New Testament to mean “coming, arrival, personal presence”

It’s Strong’s concordance number is 3952, which identifies it as the present participle form of G3948 which is defined as “a being near” which implies an impending physical presence. Thus the word means the “current physical presence” or the “arriving physical presence” of someone.

It is used 6 times to describe a visit by a person or their physical presence (I Cor 16:17, 2 Cor 6:6 and 6:7, 2 Cor 10:10, Phil 1:26 and 2:12) - this combination of “arrival” and “personal presence” provides the meaning and nuance of the word even when it is being used theologicially. Thus the parousia of Jesus is his “arrival” and “physical presence” to all of mankind.

again - plain text trumps poor interpretation . . .[/quote]

Below is an explanation of parousia from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of old and new testament words:

Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 1, pp. 208, 209) states: “PAROUSIA . . . denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with. For instance, in a papyrus letter [written in Greek] a lady speaks of the necessity of her parousia in a place in order to attend to matters relating to her property there. . . . When used of the return of Christ, at the Rapture of the Church, it signifies, not merely His momentary coming for His saints, but His presence with them from that moment until His revelation and manifestation to the world.”

Below is taken from our literature and is explained better than I could.

"Jesus parousia is not simply a momentary coming followed by a rapid departure but is, rather, a presence covering a period of time is also indicated by his words recorded at Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke 17:26-30. Here “the days of Noah are compared to “the presence of the Son of man” (“the days of the Son of man,” in Luke’s account). Jesus, therefore, does not limit the comparison just to the coming of the Deluge as a final climax during Noah’s days, though he shows that his own “presence” or “days” will see a similar climax. Since “the days of Noah” actually covered a period of years, there is basis for believing that the foretold “presence [or “days”] of the Son of man” would likewise cover a period of some years, being climaxed by the destruction of those not giving heed to the opportunity afforded them to seek deliverance.”

Plain scripture trumps your poor understanding.
[/quote]

So are you saying that since Jesus acended into heaven, that is when Noah started building the ark, and there is going to be a climax at some point in the future? If I understand you correctly that climax happened in 1914.

Do you see why we have a hard time beleiving in the 1914 date? We beleive Jesus has ruled in heaven forever, and the climax will be his return to Earth to bring his bride home. The bride is his church. Not just 144,000.[/quote]
No D. Read Matthew 24:37-39 and you’ll understand what I wrote above. Jesus said that during his parousia or presence will be like the days of Noah BEFORE the flood. Jesus is comparing two time periods that ended and will end in climatic events. In Noah’s day while he was building the ark over a 50 year period, people took no note of what Noah was doing and the violence around them due to the Nephilim until the flood came and killed them. During Jesus parousia or presence Jesus said that people will take no note of the signs Jesus just gave until Armageddon is upon them. The fact that Jesus compares his presence to the years BEFORE the flood event shows that his presence will cover a number of years before armageddon takes place. If Jesus parousia were the same as Armageddon then Jesus would have compared it to the flood event and not the years before the flood.

667

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Let me spare you a wall of text - Revelation is to be interpreted literally or symbolically - it cannot be both.
[/quote]
Again, you’re wrong. There are literal parts of Revelation that can be taken literally and there are symbolic parts that represent something other than what’s stated but still has a meaning. I’ll give you two more examples.

Revelation 20:1-4 states that Satan is bound and thrown into an abyss for 1000 years so he will no longer mislead the nations. This is literally going to happen. After Armageddon Satan will be locked away for 1000 years so he won’t be able to influence and mislead. This is the time of Christ millennial reign that I’m sure you’ve heard of. This is when the people who have the heavenly hope will rule with Jesus as stated at Revelation 20:4,6. During this time the survivors of Armageddon will be left over and the people who have died and payed their price for sinning(Romans 6:23) will be resurrected. This will include the righteous and the unrighteous (Acts 24:15) such as the evil doer who was impaled next to Jesus that Jesus told will be with him in paradise. During this 1000 year period, without the influence of Satan and his demons, the earth will be turned into a Paradise and people will have the opportunity to live forever on earth which is God’s original purpose for humans.

Another example is at Revelation 20:14 which states that Death and Hades (or HELL KJV) will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and Sulphur. This verse, although symbolic has a meaning. The Bible mentions at several places that “Death” will be gone forever. Isaiah 25:8 states that God will “swallow up death forever,” and 1 Corinthians 15:26 states that the "last enemy death is to be brought to nothing. This is symbolized by death being thrown into a lake of fire and sulphur which symbolizes eternal destruction. Also, Hades or Hell which I’m sure you know means mankind’s common grave, is thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur. This too is eternally destroyed. With death “swallowed up forever” or “brought to nothing” there will no longer ever be a need for a grave. The Christians of that day would have immediately understood that a lake of fire and sulphur represented eternal destruction and that whatever was in the lake would be completely destroyed. After death and hades is thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur then Revelation 21:4 states that “death is no more.” Death is no more because it has been swallowed up forever by being thrown into the symbolic lake of fire and sulphur which symbolized eternal destruction.

That’s what I mean when I say that there are literal parts of Revelation and symbolic parts of Revelation. In the first example, the passage is to be taken literally and in the second example, the passage is symbolic but does have a meaning.[/quote]

Nope, you missed the mark yet again . . . death and hell will literally be cast into a lake of fire . . .

668

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Let me spare you a wall of text - Revelation is to be interpreted literally or symbolically - it cannot be both.
[/quote]
Again, you’re wrong. There are literal parts of Revelation that can be taken literally and there are symbolic parts that represent something other than what’s stated but still has a meaning. I’ll give you two more examples.

Revelation 20:1-4 states that Satan is bound and thrown into an abyss for 1000 years so he will no longer mislead the nations. This is literally going to happen. After Armageddon Satan will be locked away for 1000 years so he won’t be able to influence and mislead. This is the time of Christ millennial reign that I’m sure you’ve heard of. This is when the people who have the heavenly hope will rule with Jesus as stated at Revelation 20:4,6. During this time the survivors of Armageddon will be left over and the people who have died and payed their price for sinning(Romans 6:23) will be resurrected. This will include the righteous and the unrighteous (Acts 24:15) such as the evil doer who was impaled next to Jesus that Jesus told will be with him in paradise. During this 1000 year period, without the influence of Satan and his demons, the earth will be turned into a Paradise and people will have the opportunity to live forever on earth which is God’s original purpose for humans.

Another example is at Revelation 20:14 which states that Death and Hades (or HELL KJV) will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and Sulphur. This verse, although symbolic has a meaning. The Bible mentions at several places that “Death” will be gone forever. Isaiah 25:8 states that God will “swallow up death forever,” and 1 Corinthians 15:26 states that the "last enemy death is to be brought to nothing. This is symbolized by death being thrown into a lake of fire and sulphur which symbolizes eternal destruction. Also, Hades or Hell which I’m sure you know means mankind’s common grave, is thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur. This too is eternally destroyed. With death “swallowed up forever” or “brought to nothing” there will no longer ever be a need for a grave. The Christians of that day would have immediately understood that a lake of fire and sulphur represented eternal destruction and that whatever was in the lake would be completely destroyed. After death and hades is thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur then Revelation 21:4 states that “death is no more.” Death is no more because it has been swallowed up forever by being thrown into the symbolic lake of fire and sulphur which symbolized eternal destruction.

That’s what I mean when I say that there are literal parts of Revelation and symbolic parts of Revelation. In the first example, the passage is to be taken literally and in the second example, the passage is symbolic but does have a meaning.[/quote]

Nope, you missed the mark yet again . . . death and hell will literally be cast into a lake of fire . . .

[/quote]
No, you are the one who is missing the mark yet again. Instead of just saying I’m wrong use the Bible to prove that I’m wrong which is something you rarely do.

Death is not something that can burned and literally thrown like an object, so no death is not literally thrown into a lake of fire. To the people in Bible times, fire and heat was the most destructive force. When Jesus used the term fiery furnace where the unrighteous are thrown at Matthew 13, he didn’t mean that there was a big furnace somewhere where unrighteous people go. The furnace symbolizes not a literal furnace but that who every is thrown into the furnace is completely destroyed and have no hope of coming back unlike the people who die an Adamic death. And his listeners would have understood this since fire was the most destructive force they would have understood that Jesus using the term fiery furnace meant complete and eternal destruction which is what the readers when Revelation was written would have understood when they encountered the lake of fire and sulphur.

669

How do you know Death is not something that be burned and literally thrown like an object?

670

[quote]mse2us wrote:

To the people in Bible times, fire and heat was the most destructive force. When Jesus used the term fiery furnace where the unrighteous are thrown at Matthew 13, he didn’t mean that there was a big furnace somewhere where unrighteous people go. The furnace symbolizes not a literal furnace but that who every is thrown into the furnace is completely destroyed and have no hope of coming back unlike the people who die an Adamic death. And his listeners would have understood this since fire was the most destructive force they would have understood that Jesus using the term fiery furnace meant complete and eternal destruction which is what the readers when Revelation was written would have understood when they encountered the lake of fire and sulphur.[/quote]

The people of the time also understood what happened to the chaff once separated from the seed. The chaff was burned literally in the fire. This is what the people understood.

You might want to read more sources about the people of Bible times from other places than the WatchTower, or any other source recommended by the WatchTower.

671

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

To the people in Bible times, fire and heat was the most destructive force. When Jesus used the term fiery furnace where the unrighteous are thrown at Matthew 13, he didn’t mean that there was a big furnace somewhere where unrighteous people go. The furnace symbolizes not a literal furnace but that who every is thrown into the furnace is completely destroyed and have no hope of coming back unlike the people who die an Adamic death. And his listeners would have understood this since fire was the most destructive force they would have understood that Jesus using the term fiery furnace meant complete and eternal destruction which is what the readers when Revelation was written would have understood when they encountered the lake of fire and sulphur.[/quote]

The people of the time also understood what happened to the chaff once separated from the seed. The chaff was burned literally in the fire. This is what the people understood.

You might want to read more sources about the people of Bible times from other places than the WatchTower, or any other source recommended by the WatchTower.[/quote]

Instead of just disagreeing just to disagree, why don’t you tell mse2us how death can literally be burned? Offer an alternative to what we have to say.

672

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

To the people in Bible times, fire and heat was the most destructive force. When Jesus used the term fiery furnace where the unrighteous are thrown at Matthew 13, he didn’t mean that there was a big furnace somewhere where unrighteous people go. The furnace symbolizes not a literal furnace but that who every is thrown into the furnace is completely destroyed and have no hope of coming back unlike the people who die an Adamic death. And his listeners would have understood this since fire was the most destructive force they would have understood that Jesus using the term fiery furnace meant complete and eternal destruction which is what the readers when Revelation was written would have understood when they encountered the lake of fire and sulphur.[/quote]

The people of the time also understood what happened to the chaff once separated from the seed. The chaff was burned literally in the fire. This is what the people understood.

You might want to read more sources about the people of Bible times from other places than the WatchTower, or any other source recommended by the WatchTower.[/quote]

Instead of just disagreeing just to disagree, why don’t you tell mse2us how death can literally be burned? Offer an alternative to what we have to say. [/quote]

You might have wanted to quote Irish and not myself. I was showing the interpretation of what people of the time were actually thinking. I was showing that the people understood that when the wheat were separated from the chaff, the chaff was literally burned. The people understood that there would be a horrible existence after death if they did not follow Jesus. You just do not become dust.

673

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

To the people in Bible times, fire and heat was the most destructive force. When Jesus used the term fiery furnace where the unrighteous are thrown at Matthew 13, he didn’t mean that there was a big furnace somewhere where unrighteous people go. The furnace symbolizes not a literal furnace but that who every is thrown into the furnace is completely destroyed and have no hope of coming back unlike the people who die an Adamic death. And his listeners would have understood this since fire was the most destructive force they would have understood that Jesus using the term fiery furnace meant complete and eternal destruction which is what the readers when Revelation was written would have understood when they encountered the lake of fire and sulphur.[/quote]

The people of the time also understood what happened to the chaff once separated from the seed. The chaff was burned literally in the fire. This is what the people understood.

You might want to read more sources about the people of Bible times from other places than the WatchTower, or any other source recommended by the WatchTower.[/quote]

Instead of just disagreeing just to disagree, why don’t you tell mse2us how death can literally be burned? Offer an alternative to what we have to say. [/quote]

You might have wanted to quote Irish and not myself. I was showing the interpretation of what people of the time were actually thinking. I was showing that the people understood that when the wheat were separated from the chaff, the chaff was literally burned. The people understood that there would be a horrible existence after death if they did not follow Jesus. You just do not become dust.[/quote]

You are right about quoting Irish. Sorry about that. However, since you mention it, how did the people understand that there would be a horrible existence after death by using a fire? What information at that point could they reflect upon to draw that conclusion?

674

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

To the people in Bible times, fire and heat was the most destructive force. When Jesus used the term fiery furnace where the unrighteous are thrown at Matthew 13, he didn’t mean that there was a big furnace somewhere where unrighteous people go. The furnace symbolizes not a literal furnace but that who every is thrown into the furnace is completely destroyed and have no hope of coming back unlike the people who die an Adamic death. And his listeners would have understood this since fire was the most destructive force they would have understood that Jesus using the term fiery furnace meant complete and eternal destruction which is what the readers when Revelation was written would have understood when they encountered the lake of fire and sulphur.[/quote]

The people of the time also understood what happened to the chaff once separated from the seed. The chaff was burned literally in the fire. This is what the people understood.

You might want to read more sources about the people of Bible times from other places than the WatchTower, or any other source recommended by the WatchTower.[/quote]

Instead of just disagreeing just to disagree, why don’t you tell mse2us how death can literally be burned? Offer an alternative to what we have to say. [/quote]

You might have wanted to quote Irish and not myself. I was showing the interpretation of what people of the time were actually thinking. I was showing that the people understood that when the wheat were separated from the chaff, the chaff was literally burned. The people understood that there would be a horrible existence after death if they did not follow Jesus. You just do not become dust.[/quote]

You are right about quoting Irish. Sorry about that. However, since you mention it, how did the people understand that there would be a horrible existence after death by using a fire? What information at that point could they reflect upon to draw that conclusion?[/quote]

We have been through this. Over and Over.

675

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

To the people in Bible times, fire and heat was the most destructive force. When Jesus used the term fiery furnace where the unrighteous are thrown at Matthew 13, he didn’t mean that there was a big furnace somewhere where unrighteous people go. The furnace symbolizes not a literal furnace but that who every is thrown into the furnace is completely destroyed and have no hope of coming back unlike the people who die an Adamic death. And his listeners would have understood this since fire was the most destructive force they would have understood that Jesus using the term fiery furnace meant complete and eternal destruction which is what the readers when Revelation was written would have understood when they encountered the lake of fire and sulphur.[/quote]

The people of the time also understood what happened to the chaff once separated from the seed. The chaff was burned literally in the fire. This is what the people understood.

You might want to read more sources about the people of Bible times from other places than the WatchTower, or any other source recommended by the WatchTower.[/quote]

Instead of just disagreeing just to disagree, why don’t you tell mse2us how death can literally be burned? Offer an alternative to what we have to say. [/quote]

You might have wanted to quote Irish and not myself. I was showing the interpretation of what people of the time were actually thinking. I was showing that the people understood that when the wheat were separated from the chaff, the chaff was literally burned. The people understood that there would be a horrible existence after death if they did not follow Jesus. You just do not become dust.[/quote]

You are right about quoting Irish. Sorry about that. However, since you mention it, how did the people understand that there would be a horrible existence after death by using a fire? What information at that point could they reflect upon to draw that conclusion?[/quote]

We have been through this. Over and Over. [/quote]

I would hope this should suffice, but I am afraid it won’t.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 18:8
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire

Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Luke 3:9
Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.â??

John 15:6
If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell[1] of fire.

Matthew 23:33
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Mark 9:43
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell,[1] to the unquenchable fire.

676

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

To the people in Bible times, fire and heat was the most destructive force. When Jesus used the term fiery furnace where the unrighteous are thrown at Matthew 13, he didn’t mean that there was a big furnace somewhere where unrighteous people go. The furnace symbolizes not a literal furnace but that who every is thrown into the furnace is completely destroyed and have no hope of coming back unlike the people who die an Adamic death. And his listeners would have understood this since fire was the most destructive force they would have understood that Jesus using the term fiery furnace meant complete and eternal destruction which is what the readers when Revelation was written would have understood when they encountered the lake of fire and sulphur.[/quote]

The people of the time also understood what happened to the chaff once separated from the seed. The chaff was burned literally in the fire. This is what the people understood.

You might want to read more sources about the people of Bible times from other places than the WatchTower, or any other source recommended by the WatchTower.[/quote]

Instead of just disagreeing just to disagree, why don’t you tell mse2us how death can literally be burned? Offer an alternative to what we have to say. [/quote]

You might have wanted to quote Irish and not myself. I was showing the interpretation of what people of the time were actually thinking. I was showing that the people understood that when the wheat were separated from the chaff, the chaff was literally burned. The people understood that there would be a horrible existence after death if they did not follow Jesus. You just do not become dust.[/quote]

You are right about quoting Irish. Sorry about that. However, since you mention it, how did the people understand that there would be a horrible existence after death by using a fire? What information at that point could they reflect upon to draw that conclusion?[/quote]

We have been through this. Over and Over. [/quote]

I would hope this should suffice, but I am afraid it won’t.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 18:8
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire

Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Luke 3:9
Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.â??

John 15:6
If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell[1] of fire.

Matthew 23:33
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Mark 9:43
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell,[1] to the unquenchable fire.

[/quote]

How would the people before Jesus know that they were going to burn in a fire? All the scriptures you quoted were from the Greek Scriptures, nothing from the Hebrew Scriptures.

677

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

To the people in Bible times, fire and heat was the most destructive force. When Jesus used the term fiery furnace where the unrighteous are thrown at Matthew 13, he didn’t mean that there was a big furnace somewhere where unrighteous people go. The furnace symbolizes not a literal furnace but that who every is thrown into the furnace is completely destroyed and have no hope of coming back unlike the people who die an Adamic death. And his listeners would have understood this since fire was the most destructive force they would have understood that Jesus using the term fiery furnace meant complete and eternal destruction which is what the readers when Revelation was written would have understood when they encountered the lake of fire and sulphur.[/quote]

The people of the time also understood what happened to the chaff once separated from the seed. The chaff was burned literally in the fire. This is what the people understood.

You might want to read more sources about the people of Bible times from other places than the WatchTower, or any other source recommended by the WatchTower.[/quote]

Instead of just disagreeing just to disagree, why don’t you tell mse2us how death can literally be burned? Offer an alternative to what we have to say. [/quote]

Sure- can you define what death actually is and how it is accomplished? No?

Can you prove that there is not a quantum particle of death that separates life (define that too, if you can) from the body? No?

Is there not an angel of Death (an angel that literally brings death)? Yes

Then the possibility that there is a literal thing called death that can be literally destroyed by God does exist. There is no impossibility in literally destroying death.

678

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

How would the people before Jesus know that they were going to burn in a fire? All the scriptures you quoted were from the Greek Scriptures, nothing from the Hebrew Scriptures.[/quote]

blah, blah, blah you don’t believe in a literal hell . . . why can’t you guys just get to the point? Is the NT now NOT the inspired word of God?

679

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

How would the people before Jesus know that they were going to burn in a fire? All the scriptures you quoted were from the Greek Scriptures, nothing from the Hebrew Scriptures.[/quote]

blah, blah, blah you don’t believe in a literal hell . . . why can’t you guys just get to the point? Is the NT now NOT the inspired word of God? [/quote]

Get to the point? You don’t think I am getting to one? We try to reason with people; to help them reach a conclusion. Not tell them a conclusion and say “take it or leave it”. To have people blindly follow beliefs is not our goal. If that were the case, we wouldn’t have very strong faith at all.

Did Jesus just “get to the point”? He used illustrations and reasoning ability to get to the heart condition of his listeners. We try to imitate Jesus. Ipso Facto, we try to reason with people.

Now that being said, were you serious about your particles surviving death statement? Also, what did the Israelites believe about what happens after human death, and where do you draw those conclusions?

680

you totally misunderstood my statement about a death particle - go back and try again . . .