Trinity - Bible Teaching or Doctrine of Man

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
641

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
what a cope out . . . sorry, but that is just the honest truth.

Look, you have a doctrine/prophecy that stated something would happen in 1914. That is the foundational belief of the JW’s - that something was going to happen in 1914 and you have that date based on a specific set of calculations - specifically a calculation based on a lunar month which is 30 lunar days. Then once that date passed - you were given “new light” as to what specifically occurred in 1914. Now you have changed what occurred in 1914 since the intial prophecy, but not the date itself. But if the date is as wrong as the first versions of the prophecied event are now held to be wrong - where is truth in any of this?

So how did 1914 become the date of the prophecy and the subsequent hindsight doctrine?

easy, you took 12 lunar months of 30 lunar days each and multiplied it by 7 based on a specific interpretation of a passage = this gave you 2,520 lunar days - this is the base calculation used by the Watchtower since the very beginning without alteration or correction. You started with a lunar year - multiplied the 360 lunar days of the lunar year by 7 and got 2,520 lunar days - then you converted lunar days into lunar years (one day is as a year) and now you 2,520 lunar years or 907,200 lunar days. <— this equation cannot be ignored!!! it is the foundation of the prophecy

The whole prophecy is based on a LUNAR year. Not a 365.25 day solar year - but a 360 day lunar year. so right there you have the establishment of two different time scales. I have no problem with you calling the lunar scale the prophetic scale, but to mark specific dates based on a lunar year time scale, you have to create a lunar calendar that marks specific events on specific dates based on that lunar/prophetic time scale.

The Jewish calendar is NOT a lunar calendar, but a corrected lunisolar one via the Metronic cycle and the addition of leap years to keep the Jewish calendar in time with the solar year.

The Gregorian calendar is a straight solar calendar.

Now, if you want to add your 2,520 lunar or prophetic years to a lunar or prophetic calendar - great - no isssue - you’ll just have to create one . . .

if not, and you want to apply those 2,520 lunar/porphetic years to either of the calendars in question, you must convert to the scale used by those calendars. This is basic math - math designed by the Creator Himself, the code of the universe He made.

3012 = 360, 3607 = 2,520, 2520/30 = 84, 84/7 = 12, 1230 = 360, 3607 = 2,520, 2,520*360 = 907,200, 907,200/12 = 75,600, 75,600/30 = 2,520, 2,520/7 = 360, 360/12 = 30 - you cannot escape the math!

There is no question that you started with a 30 day lunar month, right? you then multiplied that 30 by 12 to get a lunar year of 360 days - then you multiplied those 360 lunar days by 7 and got 2,520 lunar days and then converted lunar days into lunar years. ok well 2,520 lunar years is only 907,200 lunar days no matter how you slice it . . . if an event happen on day 456,201, you have to keep the same scale to know specifically when that even occurred.

If a lunar month = 30 lunar days and a lunar year has 12 lunar months, then a lunar year has 360 lunar days

if I multiple that 360 lunar days by 7, then I get a result of 2,520 lunar days.

if one lunar day = 1 lunar year, then 2,520 lunar days = 2,520 lunar years

if 1 lunar year = 360 lunar days, then 2,520 lunar years = 907,200 lunar days

there is no way for you to add 907,200 days to 607 BC and end up in 1914.

Conclusion - 1914 is a false date based on the Watchtower’s own calculation . . .

let me illustrate further, you believe true date + false interpretation ='s false doctrine - this is the foundation for your new light. So now you have true date + true interpretation ='s true doctrine

Now, if true date + false interpretation ='s false doctrine, then false date + true interpretation still ='s false doctrine.

If there is any error in the doctrine, it corrupts the whole doctrine. < - - - - biblical principle.[/quote]
Again, you are too hung up on the way time was calculated thousands of years ago verses today. The 2,520 years should be counted as solar years, because the Jewish lunar years of 360 days, over long periods of time, kept pace with the solar years by means of the intercalary months added at set intervals, thereby always maintaining the necessary harmony between the year’s beginning and the seasons. These prophetic years, in their fulfillment, would not be merely 360 days each, but full calendar years as we count them. Again, that’s because the variation of the Jewish calendar was to adjust the lunar year to harmonize with the solar year. It could be termed a “soli-lunar” or “bound lunar” year. Days, or months, were inserted at intervals to make up the difference of approximately eleven days between the lunar and the solar year. By this means the seasons always fell in their proper place in the calendar. So their calendar would be almost exactly in line with the currently used Gregorian calendar.

Again Irish, it’s the signs that Jesus told his disciples to look for which started in 1914 and became more visible in the 20th century that prove the 1914 date as correct. Some of the signs at Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are war, food shortages, earthquakes, and disease weren’t visible on a world wide scale prior to the 20th century. If you say they were you’re lying. For example, the 6.3 earthquake that hit Japan today that I saw on the news would not have been reported prior to the 20th century in a way that millions around the world could see. Prior to the 20th century even wars like the two in Iraq and Afghanistan would not have been as visible and heavily reported on so that millions could see.

The human traits Paul said would be dominant during the last days at 2 Timothy 3:1-5 also weren’t clearly visible for the whole world to see prior to the 20th century. Just about all the traits mentioned in that passage can be seen in the recent ethnic cleansing in Kyrgyzstan that I saw reported on the news today. Again, prior to the 20th century this would not have been visible for the whole world to see.

There’s no error in understanding of when the trampling on Jerusalem by the Gentile nation began, which was 607 B.C.E., how long the seven times lasted which was 2520 years and when the trampling on Jerusalem by the Gentile nations ended which was 1914.

[/quote]

These signs were present in their own times too. It could be another 1000 or 2000 or 3000 years of ever increasing signs, before it ever happens. It looks bad, but its not as bad as it can be…I am quite sure the Lord was deliberately vague.

One thing is certain, one day it will end, we just don’t know when. I ain’t getting my panties up in a wad about it though. I just hope St. Peter sees fit to open the pearly gates when I arrive even if I am not a JW. After all neither was he.

Anyhow, it’s clear you aren’t ever going to answer my questions or engage in serious debate. All we have in common is that we love God, but we understand him very differently. So leave you and all your brethren with the kindest of well wishes and endless blessings from God. May you seek what you search and peace be upon you all.

642

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Again, you are too hung up on the way time was calculated thousands of years ago verses today. The 2,520 years should be counted as solar years, because the Jewish lunar years of 360 days, over long periods of time, kept pace with the solar years by means of the intercalary months added at set intervals, thereby always maintaining the necessary harmony between the year’s beginning and the seasons. These prophetic years, in their fulfillment, would not be merely 360 days each, but full calendar years as we count them. Again, that’s because the variation of the Jewish calendar was to adjust the lunar year to harmonize with the solar year. It could be termed a “soli-lunar” or “bound lunar” year. Days, or months, were inserted at intervals to make up the difference of approximately eleven days between the lunar and the solar year. By this means the seasons always fell in their proper place in the calendar. So their calendar would be almost exactly in line with the currently used Gregorian calendar. [/quote]

Nope, sorry again - but the Jewish calendar is not a 360 day calendar. Jewish calendar years are calculated as follows:

Chaserah years - either 353 or 383 days depending on Metonic cycle position
Kesiderah years - either 354 or 384 days depending on Metonic cycle position
Shlemah years - either 355 or 385 days depending on Metonic cycle position

The Hebrew calendar’s mean year of the 19 year Metomic cycle is exactly 365 days, 5 hours and 55 minutes and 25 seconds or 365.2468 days long - this calendar mean when compared with the true solar year which is 365.2424 days long means that the Hebrew calendar drifts about 1 day per every 224 years. Against the Gregorian calendar’s 365.2425 day year, the Hebrew calendar drifts aout a day every 231 years - BUT THEY ARE ALL SOLAR YEARS

The fact is that the Hebrew year is not a 360 day year - it is not comparable, never was comparable and never will be comparable to a 360 day year - it is, has been and always will be a 365 day year, calibrated by a unique set of additions and subtractions - all of which have been known since before the time of Christ and would obviously have been know by God.

The point I have been making all along is that the calculation used by Watchtower is based on faulty math. If they use a 30 day month/360 day year as the base of their prophetic calculation - then every resulting calculation is inextricably linked to the lunar year/month - NOT a solar one. if you based your prophecy on a calculation based on a lunar month, you do not get to convert it into a solar year without the prerequisite math.

If you want to calculate using a 365 day solar year, this is what happens to your prophecy:

365.25 * 7 = 2556.75, converted to years equals 2556.75 years, added to 607 BC, you end up in 1950 - again, not 1914!

if you calculation of 2,520 days is based on a lunar year, you cannot just swap lunar years for solar years - they are not equal - EVEN the Jewish calendar does not substitute a lunar year for the solar year - it calibrates to correct to the solar year - your prophecy does not calibrate. it merely exchanges a lunar year for a solar year without accounting for the missing 5.25 days.

You even admit that the Jewish calendar is calibrated to adjust for the missing 5.25 days each year, but then you completely walk by the fact that your 2,520 years is not calibrated the same way that the Jewish calendar is calibrated - if it was calibrated the way that the Jewish calendar is calibrated - you end up in 1950, not 1914.

Again, false date + true doctrine still ='s false doctrine.

643

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
what a cope out . . . sorry, but that is just the honest truth.

Look, you have a doctrine/prophecy that stated something would happen in 1914. That is the foundational belief of the JW’s - that something was going to happen in 1914 and you have that date based on a specific set of calculations - specifically a calculation based on a lunar month which is 30 lunar days. Then once that date passed - you were given “new light” as to what specifically occurred in 1914. Now you have changed what occurred in 1914 since the intial prophecy, but not the date itself. But if the date is as wrong as the first versions of the prophecied event are now held to be wrong - where is truth in any of this?

So how did 1914 become the date of the prophecy and the subsequent hindsight doctrine?

easy, you took 12 lunar months of 30 lunar days each and multiplied it by 7 based on a specific interpretation of a passage = this gave you 2,520 lunar days - this is the base calculation used by the Watchtower since the very beginning without alteration or correction. You started with a lunar year - multiplied the 360 lunar days of the lunar year by 7 and got 2,520 lunar days - then you converted lunar days into lunar years (one day is as a year) and now you 2,520 lunar years or 907,200 lunar days. <— this equation cannot be ignored!!! it is the foundation of the prophecy

The whole prophecy is based on a LUNAR year. Not a 365.25 day solar year - but a 360 day lunar year. so right there you have the establishment of two different time scales. I have no problem with you calling the lunar scale the prophetic scale, but to mark specific dates based on a lunar year time scale, you have to create a lunar calendar that marks specific events on specific dates based on that lunar/prophetic time scale.

The Jewish calendar is NOT a lunar calendar, but a corrected lunisolar one via the Metronic cycle and the addition of leap years to keep the Jewish calendar in time with the solar year.

The Gregorian calendar is a straight solar calendar.

Now, if you want to add your 2,520 lunar or prophetic years to a lunar or prophetic calendar - great - no isssue - you’ll just have to create one . . .

if not, and you want to apply those 2,520 lunar/porphetic years to either of the calendars in question, you must convert to the scale used by those calendars. This is basic math - math designed by the Creator Himself, the code of the universe He made.

3012 = 360, 3607 = 2,520, 2520/30 = 84, 84/7 = 12, 1230 = 360, 3607 = 2,520, 2,520*360 = 907,200, 907,200/12 = 75,600, 75,600/30 = 2,520, 2,520/7 = 360, 360/12 = 30 - you cannot escape the math!

There is no question that you started with a 30 day lunar month, right? you then multiplied that 30 by 12 to get a lunar year of 360 days - then you multiplied those 360 lunar days by 7 and got 2,520 lunar days and then converted lunar days into lunar years. ok well 2,520 lunar years is only 907,200 lunar days no matter how you slice it . . . if an event happen on day 456,201, you have to keep the same scale to know specifically when that even occurred.

If a lunar month = 30 lunar days and a lunar year has 12 lunar months, then a lunar year has 360 lunar days

if I multiple that 360 lunar days by 7, then I get a result of 2,520 lunar days.

if one lunar day = 1 lunar year, then 2,520 lunar days = 2,520 lunar years

if 1 lunar year = 360 lunar days, then 2,520 lunar years = 907,200 lunar days

there is no way for you to add 907,200 days to 607 BC and end up in 1914.

Conclusion - 1914 is a false date based on the Watchtower’s own calculation . . .

let me illustrate further, you believe true date + false interpretation ='s false doctrine - this is the foundation for your new light. So now you have true date + true interpretation ='s true doctrine

Now, if true date + false interpretation ='s false doctrine, then false date + true interpretation still ='s false doctrine.

If there is any error in the doctrine, it corrupts the whole doctrine. < - - - - biblical principle.[/quote]
Again, you are too hung up on the way time was calculated thousands of years ago verses today. The 2,520 years should be counted as solar years, because the Jewish lunar years of 360 days, over long periods of time, kept pace with the solar years by means of the intercalary months added at set intervals, thereby always maintaining the necessary harmony between the year’s beginning and the seasons. These prophetic years, in their fulfillment, would not be merely 360 days each, but full calendar years as we count them. Again, that’s because the variation of the Jewish calendar was to adjust the lunar year to harmonize with the solar year. It could be termed a “soli-lunar” or “bound lunar” year. Days, or months, were inserted at intervals to make up the difference of approximately eleven days between the lunar and the solar year. By this means the seasons always fell in their proper place in the calendar. So their calendar would be almost exactly in line with the currently used Gregorian calendar.

Again Irish, it’s the signs that Jesus told his disciples to look for which started in 1914 and became more visible in the 20th century that prove the 1914 date as correct. Some of the signs at Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are war, food shortages, earthquakes, and disease weren’t visible on a world wide scale prior to the 20th century. If you say they were you’re lying. For example, the 6.3 earthquake that hit Japan today that I saw on the news would not have been reported prior to the 20th century in a way that millions around the world could see. Prior to the 20th century even wars like the two in Iraq and Afghanistan would not have been as visible and heavily reported on so that millions could see.

The human traits Paul said would be dominant during the last days at 2 Timothy 3:1-5 also weren’t clearly visible for the whole world to see prior to the 20th century. Just about all the traits mentioned in that passage can be seen in the recent ethnic cleansing in Kyrgyzstan that I saw reported on the news today. Again, prior to the 20th century this would not have been visible for the whole world to see.

There’s no error in understanding of when the trampling on Jerusalem by the Gentile nation began, which was 607 B.C.E., how long the seven times lasted which was 2520 years and when the trampling on Jerusalem by the Gentile nations ended which was 1914.

[/quote]

These signs were present in their own times too. It could be another 1000 or 2000 or 3000 years of ever increasing signs, before it ever happens. It looks bad, but its not as bad as it can be…I am quite sure the Lord was deliberately vague.

One thing is certain, one day it will end, we just don’t know when. I ain’t getting my panties up in a wad about it though. I just hope St. Peter sees fit to open the pearly gates when I arrive even if I am not a JW. After all neither was he.

Anyhow, it’s clear you aren’t ever going to answer my questions or engage in serious debate. All we have in common is that we love God, but we understand him very differently. So leave you and all your brethren with the kindest of well wishes and endless blessings from God. May you seek what you search and peace be upon you all.
[/quote]
The signs weren’t clearly evident like they are now and if God would have brought Armageddon prior to the 20th century one could have honestly made the case that they didn’t see the signs Jesus said to look to. The conclusion of the Jewish system of things lasted 40 years. Since the Bible uses the term “Last Days” or “conclusion of the system things” if the system continued on for thousands of years then those terms would not be accurate.

Also, I addressed some of your points. I wish I could address everyone’s points but unfortunately I can’t. I do plan on answering your question as to why JW’s feel that the book of Revelation is one of the most important books of the Bible.

Thanks for your well wishes!

644

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
OK - i’ll try again (I’m a masochist at heart) . . .

I’ll try some new questions and see if I get a different response:

  1. If Christ will not have a visible return to earth, then how will he be seen by “all of the nations of the earth” (Matthew 24) and by “every eye” (Revelation 1) including those who crucified him?

  2. If there are 144,000 spirit anointed people who have a hope of everlasting life in heaven and a great crowd of people who have another hope of everlasting life on paradise earth, why does Paul say that there is ONE HOPE instead of TWO HOPES?

  3. Where is the Great Crowd in Revelation 19:1?

  4. When Jesus is addressing the “great crowd” during the Sermon on the Mount, why does he tell them your reward is great IN HEAVEN?

  5. In Hebrews, the author refers to holy brothers who are partakers of the heavenly calling, and Christ in Mark 3 plainly states that "whoever does the will of God, this one is my brother - therefore according to the Bible, anyone who does the will of God is a brother of Jesus and as a holy brother then also a partaker of the heavenly calling. How can this be if only 144,000 are allowed to go to heaven?

  6. The Watchtower Society teaches that the 144,000 spirit anointed who get to go to heaven are chosen from people who lived after Christ died, BUT Hebrews and Revelation speaks of the faithful of the Old Testament who sought a heavenly place and states that God prepared Heavenly Jerusalem for them?

  7. Can you prove from the inspired Word of God that the door to heaven was shut in 1935 (ie, selection to the heavenly kingdom stopped due to the 144,000 being filled)?

  8. Why did the Watchtower society continually change the definition of a “generation” as more time passed from 1914?

8A: "Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. " (Matthew 24:34 NWT) From: The Truth that leads to Eternal Life 1968, but today, the Governing Body rejects the original “one generation” view.

8B: Before 1952, they marked a generation as 40 years and the “cut off” point for “new light” from God was established at 1952 (37 years from 1914) based on the 37 years from Christ’s death to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (1917 + 37 = 1951) - “The length of time is indicated by him when he said, “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Matt. 24:34) The actual meaning of these words is, beyond question, that which takes a “generation” in the ordinary sense, as at Mark 8:12 and Acts 13:36, or for those who are living at the given period.” (Watchtower, July 1, 1951, p. 404)

8C: The Society received “new light” in 1952: that allowed them to understand that “generation” of 1914 that would see the end could be as long as 70 years (Three score and ten years)(Watchtower, Sept. 1 1952 pp 542-543)

8D: The Society received “new light” in 1984/88: that allowed them to understand that “generation” of 1914 that would see the end would be 75 years. “Jehovah’s prophetic word through Christ Jesus is: “This generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur.” (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment of his Son’s words in a relatively short time.” (Watchtower, May 15, 1984 p6) “J. A. Bengel states in his New Testament Word Studies: “The Hebrews . . . reckon seventy-five years as one generation, and the words, shall not pass away, intimate that the greater part of that generation [of Jesus’ day] indeed, but not the whole of it, should have passed away before all should be fulfilled.”” (Watchtower April 8, 1988 p14)

8E: The Society begin to hedge the bet in 1991: “But we are as strong for it as we ever were, and we are appreciating it all the more the longer we have to wait for it. It is something worth waiting for, even if it required a million years.” (Watchtower Dec 15 1991 p11; late president, Fred Franz)

8F: well, 80 years passed, 1914 + 80 = 1994 and so in 1995 “generation” was revised again: “Eager to see the end of this evil system, Jehovah’s people have at times speculated about the time when the “great tribulation” would break out, even tying this to calculations of what is the lifetime of a generation since 1914. However, we bring a heart of wisdom in, not by speculating about how many years or days makeup a generation, but by thinking about how we “count our days” in bringing joyful praise to Jehovah.” (Watchtower Nov 1, 1995 p18) . . . … and . . . . . .“Does our more precise viewpoint on “this generation” mean that Armageddon is further away than we had thought? Not at all! Though we at no time have known the “day and hour,” Jehovah God has always known it, and he does not change.” (Watchtower Nov 1, 1995 p20) . . . . . and . . . . .“Therefore, in the final fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy today, “this generation” apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the sign of Christ’s presence but fail to mend their ways.” (Watchtower Nov 1, 1995 p19)

8G: Even the masthead of AWAKE! was changed - before 1995 it read: “Why AWAKE! Is Published …Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.” After 1995 it now reads: “Why AWAKE! Is Published … Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure world that is about to replace the present wicked, lawless system of things.”

  1. in calculating the year 1914, the calculation goes like this:

9A: The “seven times” constitute 2,520 days based on 360 lunar days x’s 7 lunar years
9B: Based on the principle of “a day for a year”, 2,520 lunar days is converted to 2,520 lunar years
9C: Adding 2,520 years to 607 BC SUPPOSEDLY brings you to 1914 (2520-607 = 1914)

BUT

9D: those 2520 lunar years were inaccurately applied to a SOLAR calendar. 2,520 lunar years converts into 907,200 days which converts into only 2,483.8 solar years. Round off to 2,484 years - you then arrive at 1878, not 1914 . . .

[/quote]

  1. When the whole earth sees Jesus this is when Armageddon starts. Jesus parousia that is mentioned at Matthew 24 and 2 Peter 3:3,4 is something different. Irish you should know that parousia is more accurately translated as presence instead of coming. This is what Jesus said would be identifiable through signs. If this was going to be something visible, then one wouldn’t need signs to identify it. On the other hand, when Armageddon comes you will not need signs to identify it.

If you look closely at Matthew 24 you can see you can see the difference between Jesus poursia or presence often translated as coming which is identifiable by signs and when he comes which is armageddon. At Matthew 24:3-32 Jesus gives signs and conditions that would correspond with the destruction of the Jerusalem temple, his parousia or presence and the conclusion of the system of things. At verse 27 it says that Jesus’ parousia or presence will be so obvious to his disciples due to the signs and conditions he is telling them that it will be like lightening flashing in the sky. Then at verse 31 Jesus tells his disciples to learn from the fig tree. The fig tree’s bright-green leaves are a noticeable and unmistakable harbinger of summer. So Jesus is saying that once they see the signs they should know that “he is near at the doors.” The fact that Jesus said to that “know he is near at the doors” again shows that his presence will be invisible to the human eyes because when one is behind doors you can not see that person. You can discern someone is behind a door but you can’t see that person.

Verse 29-30 does say that after a tribulation a sign will appear in heaven and the nations will see Jesus coming on the clouds of heaven. Revelation 1:7 has similar wording when it says that Jesus is coming with the clouds of heaven and every nation will see him. We believe that this is in a figurative sense and the seeing is perception with heart and mind. Just like not seeing or blindness is used in a figurative sense in the Bible to suggest not seeing with the heart and mind instead of literal blindness. Also, the use of clouds in connection with other divine manifestations suggests invisibility rather than visibility. We see this when God manifested his presence in the form of a cloud to Moses and the Israelites and when Jesus ascended to heaven at Acts 1:9 the verse states that “a cloud caught him up from their vision.” So when the cloud caught him up they no longer saw Jesus.

Matthew 24:36 is when Jesus is talking about Armageddon because he says that no one knows not even him but only his father as to when Armageddon is going to come. Then at verse 37, Jesus compares his parousia or presence which most Bibles translate as coming directly to the days and years BEFORE the flood. So Jesus is saying that during his parousia or presence which most Bibles translate as coming which will be the conclusion of the system of things, will be a period of time before Armageddon, where people will be living their lives, not paying attention to the signs Jesus gave until Armageddon comes and catches them by surprise.

So at Matthew 24:42-44 Jesus tells his disciples to keep on the watch and prove themselves ready because they don’t know what day he is coming. The coming in this passage is Armageddon and the Greek word used here is “erchetai” which is different than the Greek word parousia which most Bibles translate as coming used in earlier parts of Matthew. His disciples were to keep on the watch by looking for and paying attention to the signs and conditions Jesus gave so that when Armageddon comes they won’t be caught by surprise like the people in Noah’s day were.

So we do believe that Jesus is coming but this is different than Jesus’ parousia or presence which is invisible to human eyes. The parousia mentioned at Matthew 24:3,27,37-38 is invisible to human eyes, needs signs to be identified and will be a number of years. The signs will identify when Jesus becomes king in heaven and when the conclusion of the system of things will start which again will be a number of years. The coming of Jesus mentioned at Matthew 24:36,42-44 is when the earth will see and will be when Armageddon occurs.

  1. Jesus is the one who mentions two hopes. He does this during the Sermon on the Mount at Matthew 5. He start with the heavenly hope at Matthew 5:3 which states:
    “3 Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them.” Then at Matthew 5:5 he mentions the earthly hope. “5 Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.”
    When Jesus says this, he is quoting from Psalms 37:11, 29 which shows that the promise Jehovah makes at Psalms 37 which is people living on earth forever, is still going to happen.

At this point the listeners may have not completely understood what Jesus meant because the Jews of that time had no concept of going to heaven because going to heaven is not mentioned anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures.

At Luke 12:32 Jesus states that the people who are going to be part of this kingdom in heaven are going to be limited in number. Luke 12:32 states: “Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.” Jesus does not give a number but he does state that it will be limited. So his disciples would have understood that not everyone would be part of this heavenly kingdom.

At John 10:16 Jesus distinguishes between the flock or fold that has the heavenly hope and the flock that has the earthly hope. This verse states: “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” Those other sheep that are not part of the fold that have the heavenly hope, are the ones who have the earthly hope and as Jesus states at Matthew 5:5 will inherit the earth. Jesus is going to put these people in ONE group or flock.

Revelation 14:1-3, 6 finally give the number of the “little flock” of 144,000 standing on Mount Zion which is symbolic for heaven with the distinguishing mark of both Jehovah’s and Jesus’ name on their forehead singing a song that only these 144,000 can master. And then in verse 6 an angel is flying in mid-heaven with everlasting good news to declare to the people who dwell on the earth.

Yes, Paul does mention only one hope and that’s because of the new covenant that Jesus made with the apostles and the disciples of the first century. Luke 22:29,30 states: “and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.”
This covenant that Jesus instituted enabled humans to go to heaven for one reason only - to rule as kings in heaven with Jesus as part of his kingdom. Jesus again states this at Revelation 3:21 which states: "To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. And at Matthew 20:20-23 which states: "He said to her: “What do you want?” She said to him: “Give the word that these my two sons may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” 22 Jesus said in answer: “you men do not know what you are asking for. Can you drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to him: “We can.” 23 He said to them: “you will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Paul understood what he was going to do in heaven when he writes his second letter to Timothy at 2 Timothy 2:12 which states: “if we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings.” Paul also states this at 1 Corinthians 4:8 when he gives counsel to the Corinthians. This verse states: “You men already have your fill, do you? you are rich already, are you? you have begun ruling as kings without us, have you? And I wish indeed that you had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with you as kings.”

This new covenant Jesus made with his apostles which was to rule as kings with Jesus in his kingdom, applied to them and the disciples that he and the apostles preached to. They make up the majority of the little flock and they were the first ones invited to rule with Jesus in his kingdom. This is why Paul only mentions the heavenly hope in the Christian-Greek scriptures.

The Bible makes it clear that only a small number have the privilege of going to heaven. The little flock that Jesus made a covenant with, will rule with him in heaven as kings in his kingdom. This is the kingdom I’ve been talking about that will rule over the earth after Armageddon. This is the ONLY reason people go to heaven which is why only a small number of people have that privilege. They have a specific job function or duty which is to rule with Jesus in his kingdom. So contrary to what most Christian religions teach, most faithful humans who die DO NOT go to heaven to live with God for all eternity; just a little flock.

645

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
<<< wait for it . . . 1878 >>>[/quote]
As has been well established it’s been a long time for me, but if I’m not mistaken Brown and Russel had 1878 as the original date. Or 1878 had some significance of some kind.

646

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
So as to not confuse the other thread, this thread is dedicated to discussing the Trinity and whether or not it is a Bible teaching.[/quote]

Who cares the Church teaches it. Sorry JW, but your altered version of the Bible is incorrect.

647

This is rather easy. The HS is what ties everyone on earth together with each other AND the two other portions of God. Jesus is the human part of God born into this world. And God the Father is so massive, he can’t even be contained in our entire universe. Three parts make up the entity of God.

shrug Now this is just IMHO ; )

648

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
<<< wait for it . . . 1878 >>>[/quote]
As has been well established it’s been a long time for me, but if I’m not mistaken Brown and Russel had 1878 as the original date. Or 1878 had some significance of some kind.[/quote]
1878 was never believed to be a significant date. Again, it’s the physical facts that have become manifest from the year 1914 on, in fulfillment of Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13, Luke 21, and other prophecies concerning Christâ??s second presence, in the time of the end that confirms the 1914 date.

649

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
<<< wait for it . . . 1878 >>>[/quote]
As has been well established it’s been a long time for me, but if I’m not mistaken Brown and Russel had 1878 as the original date. Or 1878 had some significance of some kind.[/quote]
1878 was never believed to be a significant date. Again, it’s the physical facts that have become manifest from the year 1914 on, in fulfillment of Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13, Luke 21, and other prophecies concerning Christâ??s second presence, in the time of the end that confirms the 1914 date.
[/quote]
That could be right. I’m digging through my frazzled old memory. I haven’t even listened to my own tape again yet which dealt with all that so for now I’ll concede your point.

650

[quote]mse2us wrote:

  1. When the whole earth sees Jesus this is when Armageddon starts. Jesus parousia that is mentioned at Matthew 24 and 2 Peter 3:3,4 is something different. Irish you should know that parousia is more accurately translated as presence instead of coming. This is what Jesus said would be identifiable through signs. If this was going to be something visible, then one wouldn’t need signs to identify it. On the other hand, when Armageddon comes you will not need signs to identify it.

If you look closely at Matthew 24 you can see you can see the difference between Jesus poursia or presence often translated as coming which is identifiable by signs and when he comes which is armageddon. At Matthew 24:3-32 Jesus gives signs and conditions that would correspond with the destruction of the Jerusalem temple, his parousia or presence and the conclusion of the system of things. At verse 27 it says that Jesus’ parousia or presence will be so obvious to his disciples due to the signs and conditions he is telling them that it will be like lightening flashing in the sky. Then at verse 31 Jesus tells his disciples to learn from the fig tree. The fig tree’s bright-green leaves are a noticeable and unmistakable harbinger of summer. So Jesus is saying that once they see the signs they should know that “he is near at the doors.” The fact that Jesus said to that “know he is near at the doors” again shows that his presence will be invisible to the human eyes because when one is behind doors you can not see that person. You can discern someone is behind a door but you can’t see that person.

Verse 29-30 does say that after a tribulation a sign will appear in heaven and the nations will see Jesus coming on the clouds of heaven. Revelation 1:7 has similar wording when it says that Jesus is coming with the clouds of heaven and every nation will see him. We believe that this is in a figurative sense and the seeing is perception with heart and mind. Just like not seeing or blindness is used in a figurative sense in the Bible to suggest not seeing with the heart and mind instead of literal blindness. Also, the use of clouds in connection with other divine manifestations suggests invisibility rather than visibility. We see this when God manifested his presence in the form of a cloud to Moses and the Israelites and when Jesus ascended to heaven at Acts 1:9 the verse states that “a cloud caught him up from their vision.” So when the cloud caught him up they no longer saw Jesus.

Matthew 24:36 is when Jesus is talking about Armageddon because he says that no one knows not even him but only his father as to when Armageddon is going to come. Then at verse 37, Jesus compares his parousia or presence which most Bibles translate as coming directly to the days and years BEFORE the flood. So Jesus is saying that during his parousia or presence which most Bibles translate as coming which will be the conclusion of the system of things, will be a period of time before Armageddon, where people will be living their lives, not paying attention to the signs Jesus gave until Armageddon comes and catches them by surprise.

So at Matthew 24:42-44 Jesus tells his disciples to keep on the watch and prove themselves ready because they don’t know what day he is coming. The coming in this passage is Armageddon and the Greek word used here is “erchetai” which is different than the Greek word parousia which most Bibles translate as coming used in earlier parts of Matthew. His disciples were to keep on the watch by looking for and paying attention to the signs and conditions Jesus gave so that when Armageddon comes they won’t be caught by surprise like the people in Noah’s day were.

So we do believe that Jesus is coming but this is different than Jesus’ parousia or presence which is invisible to human eyes. The parousia mentioned at Matthew 24:3,27,37-38 is invisible to human eyes, needs signs to be identified and will be a number of years. The signs will identify when Jesus becomes king in heaven and when the conclusion of the system of things will start which again will be a number of years. The coming of Jesus mentioned at Matthew 24:36,42-44 is when the earth will see and will be when Armageddon occurs.
[/quote]

well, kudos for trying to answer two questions at least . . .

  1. your answer basically is - “and ever eye shall see him” is “figurative” - you could have just condensed it down to that. Since that is the heart and crux of your argument - I will address that specifically: but what you actually meant what that it is “symbolic”

OK break down between, literal, symbolic and figurative - you need to actually understand these terms.

Textual interpretation requires consistency in interpretation - if it is literal it is literal, if symbolic, then symbolic. THOSE two are you choices - either Revelation is Symbolic or it is Literal.

Figurative language is used to describe something by COMPARING IT with something else - for example - I flew down the hill to stop the wagon. I did not literally fly, I was using figurative language for the speed at which i ran down the hill by comparing it to the speed of flying. I am a animal - this does not mean I am a literal animal but that some trait that i have (eating) is comparable to the way an animal would eat. Note that figurative language is a comparison of a literal object of action with another literal object or action for descriptive purposes!!

Symbolic interpretation is where the literal physical object is standing in place of another unseen object - for example, “Take, eat, this is my Body which is broken for you” - they were not eating the physical body of Jesus (not the time for a transsubstantiation debate), but symbolically partaking of His literal suffering that He endured. The bread is the symbol of his body. Note that symbolism is using a literal object/event to stand for an unseen object/event.

Now, a symbolic interpretation of Revelation means that what is written in Revelation is actually symbolic of the actual events/objects themselves - ie - what is described is not actually real or happening but that it is used metaphorically of other real events and objects. - this is where your church messes up figurative and symnbolic.

The problem with JW doctrine is that it chooses “figurative” to fix holes with doctrinal issues. What I mean by that is that they choose SYMBOLIC interpretations where literal interpretations would destroy their doctrine and then call it figurative - NOT BASED ON THE TEXT - but based on their own choosing. AND when they employ “figurative” they misuse the concept by calling a symbolic interpretation a “figurative” interpretation. This is a total misapplication of the concepts.

If you are going to treat parts of Revelation as symbolic in interpretation - you have to interpret the whole book as symbolic. You cannot pick and choose which is literal and which is symbolic. As soon as you do this, textual integrity disappears and the Bible says whatever you want it to say. If the 144,000 is literal, then so are the seven seals, so are the Four Horsemen, so are the eyes of those who will see Christ. If those things are real, so are the eyes of those who see his visible return. - If the eyes are symbolic, then the 144,000 is symbolic, the trumpetsare symbolic, the four horsemen are symbolic, the judgement is symbolic . . .

So, your interpretation is based on a false understanding. You have already claimed a literal interpretation of Revelation, so you cannot use a SYMBOLIC interpretation here:

Let me illustrate:

Rev 1:4 - John (literal person) writes to the seven churchs of Asia (literal churches in literal Asia)

Rev 1:5-6 - both verse are also literal - God, Jesus, the angels, the fact we have been made literally freed by his literal blood, that we are literal priests, etc.

Rev 1:7 - he is literally coming in literal clouds so that literal eyes can literally see him even the ones who literally pierced his flesh and all of the literal nations of the earth will literally mourn

Rev 1:8 God is the literal alpha and omega and literally almighty.

Do you see your problem here?

651

[quote]mse2us wrote:
2. Jesus is the one who mentions two hopes. He does this during the Sermon on the Mount at Matthew 5. He start with the heavenly hope at Matthew 5:3 which states:
“3 Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them.” Then at Matthew 5:5 he mentions the earthly hope. “5 Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.”
When Jesus says this, he is quoting from Psalms 37:11, 29 which shows that the promise Jehovah makes at Psalms 37 which is people living on earth forever, is still going to happen.

At this point the listeners may have not completely understood what Jesus meant because the Jews of that time had no concept of going to heaven because going to heaven is not mentioned anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures.

At Luke 12:32 Jesus states that the people who are going to be part of this kingdom in heaven are going to be limited in number. Luke 12:32 states: “Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.” Jesus does not give a number but he does state that it will be limited. So his disciples would have understood that not everyone would be part of this heavenly kingdom.

At John 10:16 Jesus distinguishes between the flock or fold that has the heavenly hope and the flock that has the earthly hope. This verse states: “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” Those other sheep that are not part of the fold that have the heavenly hope, are the ones who have the earthly hope and as Jesus states at Matthew 5:5 will inherit the earth. Jesus is going to put these people in ONE group or flock.

Revelation 14:1-3, 6 finally give the number of the “little flock” of 144,000 standing on Mount Zion which is symbolic for heaven with the distinguishing mark of both Jehovah’s and Jesus’ name on their forehead singing a song that only these 144,000 can master. And then in verse 6 an angel is flying in mid-heaven with everlasting good news to declare to the people who dwell on the earth.

Yes, Paul does mention only one hope and that’s because of the new covenant that Jesus made with the apostles and the disciples of the first century. Luke 22:29,30 states: “and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.”
This covenant that Jesus instituted enabled humans to go to heaven for one reason only - to rule as kings in heaven with Jesus as part of his kingdom. Jesus again states this at Revelation 3:21 which states: "To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. And at Matthew 20:20-23 which states: "He said to her: “What do you want?” She said to him: “Give the word that these my two sons may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” 22 Jesus said in answer: “you men do not know what you are asking for. Can you drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to him: “We can.” 23 He said to them: “you will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Paul understood what he was going to do in heaven when he writes his second letter to Timothy at 2 Timothy 2:12 which states: “if we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings.” Paul also states this at 1 Corinthians 4:8 when he gives counsel to the Corinthians. This verse states: “You men already have your fill, do you? you are rich already, are you? you have begun ruling as kings without us, have you? And I wish indeed that you had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with you as kings.”

This new covenant Jesus made with his apostles which was to rule as kings with Jesus in his kingdom, applied to them and the disciples that he and the apostles preached to. They make up the majority of the little flock and they were the first ones invited to rule with Jesus in his kingdom. This is why Paul only mentions the heavenly hope in the Christian-Greek scriptures.

The Bible makes it clear that only a small number have the privilege of going to heaven. The little flock that Jesus made a covenant with, will rule with him in heaven as kings in his kingdom. This is the kingdom I’ve been talking about that will rule over the earth after Armageddon. This is the ONLY reason people go to heaven which is why only a small number of people have that privilege. They have a specific job function or duty which is to rule with Jesus in his kingdom. So contrary to what most Christian religions teach, most faithful humans who die DO NOT go to heaven to live with God for all eternity; just a little flock.

[/quote]

  1. Wow - if this were not such a serious discussion, your understanding of biblical interpretation would be quite entertaining. My Greek and Hebrew teachers would have loved you guys . . .

OK - First of all your “interpretation” Paul’s one hope . . . Paul’s writing to ALL Christian, both in his day and subsequent generations in every passage you quoted - you just opened the “king” positions to EVERYONE! You destroyed your own doctrine by its explanation . . . I don’t know what I can add that would be more conclusive than your own words. . .

652

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
2. Jesus is the one who mentions two hopes. He does this during the Sermon on the Mount at Matthew 5. He start with the heavenly hope at Matthew 5:3 which states:
“3 Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them.” Then at Matthew 5:5 he mentions the earthly hope. “5 Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.”
When Jesus says this, he is quoting from Psalms 37:11, 29 which shows that the promise Jehovah makes at Psalms 37 which is people living on earth forever, is still going to happen.

At this point the listeners may have not completely understood what Jesus meant because the Jews of that time had no concept of going to heaven because going to heaven is not mentioned anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures.

At Luke 12:32 Jesus states that the people who are going to be part of this kingdom in heaven are going to be limited in number. Luke 12:32 states: “Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.” Jesus does not give a number but he does state that it will be limited. So his disciples would have understood that not everyone would be part of this heavenly kingdom.

At John 10:16 Jesus distinguishes between the flock or fold that has the heavenly hope and the flock that has the earthly hope. This verse states: “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” Those other sheep that are not part of the fold that have the heavenly hope, are the ones who have the earthly hope and as Jesus states at Matthew 5:5 will inherit the earth. Jesus is going to put these people in ONE group or flock.

Revelation 14:1-3, 6 finally give the number of the “little flock” of 144,000 standing on Mount Zion which is symbolic for heaven with the distinguishing mark of both Jehovah’s and Jesus’ name on their forehead singing a song that only these 144,000 can master. And then in verse 6 an angel is flying in mid-heaven with everlasting good news to declare to the people who dwell on the earth.

Yes, Paul does mention only one hope and that’s because of the new covenant that Jesus made with the apostles and the disciples of the first century. Luke 22:29,30 states: “and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.”
This covenant that Jesus instituted enabled humans to go to heaven for one reason only - to rule as kings in heaven with Jesus as part of his kingdom. Jesus again states this at Revelation 3:21 which states: "To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. And at Matthew 20:20-23 which states: "He said to her: “What do you want?” She said to him: “Give the word that these my two sons may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” 22 Jesus said in answer: “you men do not know what you are asking for. Can you drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to him: “We can.” 23 He said to them: “you will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Paul understood what he was going to do in heaven when he writes his second letter to Timothy at 2 Timothy 2:12 which states: “if we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings.” Paul also states this at 1 Corinthians 4:8 when he gives counsel to the Corinthians. This verse states: “You men already have your fill, do you? you are rich already, are you? you have begun ruling as kings without us, have you? And I wish indeed that you had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with you as kings.”

This new covenant Jesus made with his apostles which was to rule as kings with Jesus in his kingdom, applied to them and the disciples that he and the apostles preached to. They make up the majority of the little flock and they were the first ones invited to rule with Jesus in his kingdom. This is why Paul only mentions the heavenly hope in the Christian-Greek scriptures.

The Bible makes it clear that only a small number have the privilege of going to heaven. The little flock that Jesus made a covenant with, will rule with him in heaven as kings in his kingdom. This is the kingdom I’ve been talking about that will rule over the earth after Armageddon. This is the ONLY reason people go to heaven which is why only a small number of people have that privilege. They have a specific job function or duty which is to rule with Jesus in his kingdom. So contrary to what most Christian religions teach, most faithful humans who die DO NOT go to heaven to live with God for all eternity; just a little flock.

[/quote]

  1. Wow - if this were not such a serious discussion, your understanding of biblical interpretation would be quite entertaining. My Greek and Hebrew teachers would have loved you guys . . .

OK - First of all your “interpretation” Paul’s one hope . . . Paul’s writing to ALL Christian, both in his day and subsequent generations in every passage you quoted - you just opened the “king” positions to EVERYONE! You destroyed your own doctrine by its explanation . . . I don’t know what I can add that would be more conclusive than your own words. . .[/quote]
Don’t just say I’m wrong explain using the Bible how I’m wrong and how my explanation destroyed my doctrine.

All of Paul’s letters were written to the first century Christians congregation and as I said in my post they were the first to be invited to heaven to rule with Jesus as kings so they all pressed toward that hope. The fact that Jesus calls it a “little flock” show that although the heavenly hope, which is to rule with Jesus in his kingdom, is open to everyone not all are chosen. As a matter of fact, this is exactly what Jesus said at Matthew 22:1-14. In this passage Jesus uses an illustration to explain what the kingdom of the heavens is like. At the end of the illustration at verse 14 he states: “For there are many invited, but few chosen.”
I’ll use a current example to explain verse 14. Take the popular show American Idol for instance. Millions are invited to audition but out of the millions that do audition only a few are chosen to be on the show. The heavenly hope is open to all but not everyone is chosen for the special privilege to rule with Jesus in his kingdom.

Entertaining? LOL! Like I said before, you know a heck of a lot less than you think you know.

653

[quote]mse2us wrote:
Don’t just say I’m wrong explain using the Bible how I’m wrong and how my explanation destroyed my doctrine.

All of Paul’s letters were written to the first century Christians congregation and as I said in my post they were the first to be invited to heaven to rule with Jesus as kings so they all pressed toward that hope. The fact that Jesus calls it a “little flock” show that although the heavenly hope, which is to rule with Jesus in his kingdom, is open to everyone not all are chosen. As a matter of fact, this is exactly what Jesus said at Matthew 22:1-14. In this passage Jesus uses an illustration to explain what the kingdom of the heavens is like. At the end of the illustration at verse 14 he states: “For there are many invited, but few chosen.”
I’ll use a current example to explain verse 14. Take the popular show American Idol for instance. Millions are invited to audition but out of the millions that do audition only a few are chosen to be on the show. The heavenly hope is open to all but not everyone is chosen for the special privilege to rule with Jesus in his kingdom.

Entertaining? LOL! Like I said before, you know a heck of a lot less than you think you know.[/quote]

I will answer this with a single question - Was Paul ONLY writing to the Christians of his day?

654

Let me spare you a wall of text - Revelation is to be interpreted literally or symbolically - it cannot be both.

Since you have already identified a literal interpretation of Revelation is the right method of interpretation, then the 144,000 of Revelation are exactly who the books says they are 12,000 literal people from each of the 12 literal tribes of Israel (Rev 7). And not only that but they are all men and all literal virgins (Rev 14). So, if you are not a virgin Jewish male who has accepted Christ - you cannot be one of the 144,00. Nor are the 144,000 ever identified as kings of heaven. Now since the 144,000 is limited to this specific group and this is the only place they are mentioned - it would seem odd that Jesus and the Apostles would tell everyone that they had the opportunity to be a part of that select group if they could not actually be a part of that select group - that’s what we call lying - so obviously the call of salvation is not the same thing as the call of the 144,000 - Or God is a liar.

655

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

  1. When the whole earth sees Jesus this is when Armageddon starts. Jesus parousia that is mentioned at Matthew 24 and 2 Peter 3:3,4 is something different. Irish you should know that parousia is more accurately translated as presence instead of coming. This is what Jesus said would be identifiable through signs. If this was going to be something visible, then one wouldn’t need signs to identify it. On the other hand, when Armageddon comes you will not need signs to identify it.

If you look closely at Matthew 24 you can see you can see the difference between Jesus poursia or presence often translated as coming which is identifiable by signs and when he comes which is armageddon. At Matthew 24:3-32 Jesus gives signs and conditions that would correspond with the destruction of the Jerusalem temple, his parousia or presence and the conclusion of the system of things. At verse 27 it says that Jesus’ parousia or presence will be so obvious to his disciples due to the signs and conditions he is telling them that it will be like lightening flashing in the sky. Then at verse 31 Jesus tells his disciples to learn from the fig tree. The fig tree’s bright-green leaves are a noticeable and unmistakable harbinger of summer. So Jesus is saying that once they see the signs they should know that “he is near at the doors.” The fact that Jesus said to that “know he is near at the doors” again shows that his presence will be invisible to the human eyes because when one is behind doors you can not see that person. You can discern someone is behind a door but you can’t see that person.

Verse 29-30 does say that after a tribulation a sign will appear in heaven and the nations will see Jesus coming on the clouds of heaven. Revelation 1:7 has similar wording when it says that Jesus is coming with the clouds of heaven and every nation will see him. We believe that this is in a figurative sense and the seeing is perception with heart and mind. Just like not seeing or blindness is used in a figurative sense in the Bible to suggest not seeing with the heart and mind instead of literal blindness. Also, the use of clouds in connection with other divine manifestations suggests invisibility rather than visibility. We see this when God manifested his presence in the form of a cloud to Moses and the Israelites and when Jesus ascended to heaven at Acts 1:9 the verse states that “a cloud caught him up from their vision.” So when the cloud caught him up they no longer saw Jesus.

Matthew 24:36 is when Jesus is talking about Armageddon because he says that no one knows not even him but only his father as to when Armageddon is going to come. Then at verse 37, Jesus compares his parousia or presence which most Bibles translate as coming directly to the days and years BEFORE the flood. So Jesus is saying that during his parousia or presence which most Bibles translate as coming which will be the conclusion of the system of things, will be a period of time before Armageddon, where people will be living their lives, not paying attention to the signs Jesus gave until Armageddon comes and catches them by surprise.

So at Matthew 24:42-44 Jesus tells his disciples to keep on the watch and prove themselves ready because they don’t know what day he is coming. The coming in this passage is Armageddon and the Greek word used here is “erchetai” which is different than the Greek word parousia which most Bibles translate as coming used in earlier parts of Matthew. His disciples were to keep on the watch by looking for and paying attention to the signs and conditions Jesus gave so that when Armageddon comes they won’t be caught by surprise like the people in Noah’s day were.

So we do believe that Jesus is coming but this is different than Jesus’ parousia or presence which is invisible to human eyes. The parousia mentioned at Matthew 24:3,27,37-38 is invisible to human eyes, needs signs to be identified and will be a number of years. The signs will identify when Jesus becomes king in heaven and when the conclusion of the system of things will start which again will be a number of years. The coming of Jesus mentioned at Matthew 24:36,42-44 is when the earth will see and will be when Armageddon occurs.
[/quote]

well, kudos for trying to answer two questions at least . . .

  1. your answer basically is - “and ever eye shall see him” is “figurative” - you could have just condensed it down to that. Since that is the heart and crux of your argument - I will address that specifically: but what you actually meant what that it is “symbolic”

OK break down between, literal, symbolic and figurative - you need to actually understand these terms.

Textual interpretation requires consistency in interpretation - if it is literal it is literal, if symbolic, then symbolic. THOSE two are you choices - either Revelation is Symbolic or it is Literal.

Figurative language is used to describe something by COMPARING IT with something else - for example - I flew down the hill to stop the wagon. I did not literally fly, I was using figurative language for the speed at which i ran down the hill by comparing it to the speed of flying. I am a animal - this does not mean I am a literal animal but that some trait that i have (eating) is comparable to the way an animal would eat. Note that figurative language is a comparison of a literal object of action with another literal object or action for descriptive purposes!!

Symbolic interpretation is where the literal physical object is standing in place of another unseen object - for example, “Take, eat, this is my Body which is broken for you” - they were not eating the physical body of Jesus (not the time for a transsubstantiation debate), but symbolically partaking of His literal suffering that He endured. The bread is the symbol of his body. Note that symbolism is using a literal object/event to stand for an unseen object/event.

Now, a symbolic interpretation of Revelation means that what is written in Revelation is actually symbolic of the actual events/objects themselves - ie - what is described is not actually real or happening but that it is used metaphorically of other real events and objects. - this is where your church messes up figurative and symnbolic.

The problem with JW doctrine is that it chooses “figurative” to fix holes with doctrinal issues. What I mean by that is that they choose SYMBOLIC interpretations where literal interpretations would destroy their doctrine and then call it figurative - NOT BASED ON THE TEXT - but based on their own choosing. AND when they employ “figurative” they misuse the concept by calling a symbolic interpretation a “figurative” interpretation. This is a total misapplication of the concepts.

If you are going to treat parts of Revelation as symbolic in interpretation - you have to interpret the whole book as symbolic. You cannot pick and choose which is literal and which is symbolic. As soon as you do this, textual integrity disappears and the Bible says whatever you want it to say. If the 144,000 is literal, then so are the seven seals, so are the Four Horsemen, so are the eyes of those who will see Christ. If those things are real, so are the eyes of those who see his visible return. - If the eyes are symbolic, then the 144,000 is symbolic, the trumpetsare symbolic, the four horsemen are symbolic, the judgement is symbolic . . .

So, your interpretation is based on a false understanding. You have already claimed a literal interpretation of Revelation, so you cannot use a SYMBOLIC interpretation here:

Let me illustrate:

Rev 1:4 - John (literal person) writes to the seven churchs of Asia (literal churches in literal Asia)

Rev 1:5-6 - both verse are also literal - God, Jesus, the angels, the fact we have been made literally freed by his literal blood, that we are literal priests, etc.

Rev 1:7 - he is literally coming in literal clouds so that literal eyes can literally see him even the ones who literally pierced his flesh and all of the literal nations of the earth will literally mourn

Rev 1:8 God is the literal alpha and omega and literally almighty.

Do you see your problem here?[/quote]
LOL! Thanks for the explaining the difference between literal, symbolic and figurative. Of course I already completely understood the difference between those three terms and all JW’s understand this as well. I gave similar definitions to dmaddox in the “Anyone Interest in a Serious Religios debate” thread.

Nothing you said above applies to what I wrote. I’m not basing the fact that Jesus’ parousia or presence mentioned at Matthew 24:3 is going to be invisible to human eyes based on one verse in Revelation. And the heart and crux of my above argument is not that every eye will see his is figurative. If I centered my whole explanation on trying to explain that then you might have a point. I based it on the fact that Jesus said signs and world conditions would be needed to identify his parousia or presence which clearly shows that it would not be visible to human eyes because if it was then signs would not be needed to identify it. Furthermore, after Jesus told them the signs to watch for, he tells his disciples to KEEP ON THE WATCH, TO STAY AWAKE AND BE READY which shows that if they did not do these things they could miss the signs. Since it’s been almost 2000 years since Jesus died, God loving put in the Bible a way for his faithful servants to know when Armageddon is close or when Jesus is “near at the doors.” Again, he did this with the Christians living in Judea during the Jewish last days before Jerusalem was destroyed. He gave them clear signs to look for to identify Jerusalem’s desolation so they could be prepared and survive the coming destruction. God has done the same thing today.

That is the “heart and crux” of my argument and that is what I’ve been saying from the beginning. You just don’t understand what the conclusion of the system of things and Jesus’ parousia or presence mentioned at Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 means.

Your statement about treating parts as symbolic and then having to make the whole book symbolic is completely wrong. The book of Revelation is not completely symbolic. It is largely symbolic but not every single passage is symbolic. For example, Revelation 21:4 states: " And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away." This verse is not symbolic. There will be a time when tears and outcry caused by the pain we experience today as well as death will be gone forever. On the other hand, Revelation 12:4 states the dragon’s tail drags a third of the stars with him. This is a symbolic verse.

Also, I don’t know what you mean when you say that I claimed a literal interpretation of Revelation. I said that a lot of Revelation is symbolic but the symbolism has a meaning.

656

nope - you just proved you don’t understand . . .

657

While you’re scratching your head over the fact that you still do not understand the differences between figurative language and symbolic interpretation, let me deal with your generic definition and use of “parousia”

Greek Word that is used 24 times in the Greek New Testament to mean “coming, arrival, personal presence”

It’s Strong’s concordance number is 3952, which identifies it as the present participle form of G3948 which is defined as “a being near” which implies an impending physical presence. Thus the word means the “current physical presence” or the “arriving physical presence” of someone.

It is used 6 times to describe a visit by a person or their physical presence (I Cor 16:17, 2 Cor 6:6 and 6:7, 2 Cor 10:10, Phil 1:26 and 2:12) - this combination of “arrival” and “personal presence” provides the meaning and nuance of the word even when it is being used theologicially. Thus the parousia of Jesus is his “arrival” and “physical presence” to all of mankind.

again - plain text trumps poor interpretation . . .

658

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
Don’t just say I’m wrong explain using the Bible how I’m wrong and how my explanation destroyed my doctrine.

All of Paul’s letters were written to the first century Christians congregation and as I said in my post they were the first to be invited to heaven to rule with Jesus as kings so they all pressed toward that hope. The fact that Jesus calls it a “little flock” show that although the heavenly hope, which is to rule with Jesus in his kingdom, is open to everyone not all are chosen. As a matter of fact, this is exactly what Jesus said at Matthew 22:1-14. In this passage Jesus uses an illustration to explain what the kingdom of the heavens is like. At the end of the illustration at verse 14 he states: “For there are many invited, but few chosen.”
I’ll use a current example to explain verse 14. Take the popular show American Idol for instance. Millions are invited to audition but out of the millions that do audition only a few are chosen to be on the show. The heavenly hope is open to all but not everyone is chosen for the special privilege to rule with Jesus in his kingdom.

Entertaining? LOL! Like I said before, you know a heck of a lot less than you think you know.[/quote]

I will answer this with a single question - Was Paul ONLY writing to the Christians of his day?[/quote]
That’s a good question. When Paul wrote letters to the individual congregations he was obviously writing to that particular congregation to offer further guidance and to address specific issues that had arisen. For example, in a lot of his letters he address individual’s by name and specific problem that they were having. So I honestly don’t know if Paul knew that his letter would be copied and passed among the different congregations and made part of the Biblical Canon because no where in his letters does he state that they should be passed amoung the congregations of that time. I would have to do research to answer that question.

But it doesn’t matter. Even if he wrote the letters for future Christians, that still doesn’t change the fact that people go to heaven for a specific reason which is to rule with Jesus in his kingdom and the “little flock” is limited in number. The first century Christians of the apostles day weren’t the only ones who had the heavenly hope; they were the first ones invited.
The invitation was open to future Christians down until our day until the number of 144,000 is complete.

You should be impressed. I explained that without a wall of text:)

659

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
While you’re scratching your head over the fact that you still do not understand the differences between figurative language and symbolic interpretation, let me deal with your generic definition and use of “parousia”

Greek Word that is used 24 times in the Greek New Testament to mean “coming, arrival, personal presence”

It’s Strong’s concordance number is 3952, which identifies it as the present participle form of G3948 which is defined as “a being near” which implies an impending physical presence. Thus the word means the “current physical presence” or the “arriving physical presence” of someone.

It is used 6 times to describe a visit by a person or their physical presence (I Cor 16:17, 2 Cor 6:6 and 6:7, 2 Cor 10:10, Phil 1:26 and 2:12) - this combination of “arrival” and “personal presence” provides the meaning and nuance of the word even when it is being used theologicially. Thus the parousia of Jesus is his “arrival” and “physical presence” to all of mankind.

again - plain text trumps poor interpretation . . .[/quote]

Below is an explanation of parousia from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of old and new testament words:

Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 1, pp. 208, 209) states: “PAROUSIA . . . denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with. For instance, in a papyrus letter [written in Greek] a lady speaks of the necessity of her parousia in a place in order to attend to matters relating to her property there. . . . When used of the return of Christ, at the Rapture of the Church, it signifies, not merely His momentary coming for His saints, but His presence with them from that moment until His revelation and manifestation to the world.”

Below is taken from our literature and is explained better than I could.

"Jesus parousia is not simply a momentary coming followed by a rapid departure but is, rather, a presence covering a period of time is also indicated by his words recorded at Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke 17:26-30. Here “the days of Noah are compared to “the presence of the Son of man” (“the days of the Son of man,” in Luke’s account). Jesus, therefore, does not limit the comparison just to the coming of the Deluge as a final climax during Noah’s days, though he shows that his own “presence” or “days” will see a similar climax. Since “the days of Noah” actually covered a period of years, there is basis for believing that the foretold “presence [or “days”] of the Son of man” would likewise cover a period of some years, being climaxed by the destruction of those not giving heed to the opportunity afforded them to seek deliverance.”

Plain scripture trumps your poor understanding.

660

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
While you’re scratching your head over the fact that you still do not understand the differences between figurative language and symbolic interpretation, let me deal with your generic definition and use of “parousia”

Greek Word that is used 24 times in the Greek New Testament to mean “coming, arrival, personal presence”

It’s Strong’s concordance number is 3952, which identifies it as the present participle form of G3948 which is defined as “a being near” which implies an impending physical presence. Thus the word means the “current physical presence” or the “arriving physical presence” of someone.

It is used 6 times to describe a visit by a person or their physical presence (I Cor 16:17, 2 Cor 6:6 and 6:7, 2 Cor 10:10, Phil 1:26 and 2:12) - this combination of “arrival” and “personal presence” provides the meaning and nuance of the word even when it is being used theologicially. Thus the parousia of Jesus is his “arrival” and “physical presence” to all of mankind.

again - plain text trumps poor interpretation . . .[/quote]

Below is an explanation of parousia from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of old and new testament words:

Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 1, pp. 208, 209) states: “PAROUSIA . . . denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with. For instance, in a papyrus letter [written in Greek] a lady speaks of the necessity of her parousia in a place in order to attend to matters relating to her property there. . . . When used of the return of Christ, at the Rapture of the Church, it signifies, not merely His momentary coming for His saints, but His presence with them from that moment until His revelation and manifestation to the world.”

Below is taken from our literature and is explained better than I could.

"Jesus parousia is not simply a momentary coming followed by a rapid departure but is, rather, a presence covering a period of time is also indicated by his words recorded at Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke 17:26-30. Here “the days of Noah are compared to “the presence of the Son of man” (“the days of the Son of man,” in Luke’s account). Jesus, therefore, does not limit the comparison just to the coming of the Deluge as a final climax during Noah’s days, though he shows that his own “presence” or “days” will see a similar climax. Since “the days of Noah” actually covered a period of years, there is basis for believing that the foretold “presence [or “days”] of the Son of man” would likewise cover a period of some years, being climaxed by the destruction of those not giving heed to the opportunity afforded them to seek deliverance.”

Plain scripture trumps your poor understanding.
[/quote]

So are you saying that since Jesus acended into heaven, that is when Noah started building the ark, and there is going to be a climax at some point in the future? If I understand you correctly that climax happened in 1914.

Do you see why we have a hard time beleiving in the 1914 date? We beleive Jesus has ruled in heaven forever, and the climax will be his return to Earth to bring his bride home. The bride is his church. Not just 144,000.