Trinity - Bible Teaching or Doctrine of Man

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
621

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
oh, well,

here goes: first the general quotes from all sorts of encyclopedias, etc . . .

… The intervening years after the fall of Samaria (722-BCE), and after the destruction of Jerusalem (586-BCE), were probably marked by closer intercourse, similar to the period of union in the popular traditions relating to the pre-monarchical age.

… This brought about the final siege of the city, which was at length taken and destroyed (B.C. 586).

… Some of the most important prophets and poets lived during the Babylonian Exile, the period of captivity that followed BabylonÃ??Ã?¢??s conquest of Judah in 587 or 586 B.C.

… In 586 B.C. it fell to the Babylonians, and the Temple was destroyed.

… Nebuchadnezzar subsequently engaged in several military campaigns designed to increase Babylonian influence in Syria and Judah, capturing Jerusalem in 597 BC, bringing King JehoiAchin to Babylon. Another siege of Jerusalem occurred in 586 BC, ending in the destruction of both the city and the Temple and the deportation of many prominent citizens to Babylon.

… Ashkelon was utterly destroyed by [Nebuchadnezzar], the Babylonian leader who later destroyed Jerusalem and SolomonÃ??Ã?¢??s Temple in 586 B.C.E.

The Babylonian Exile (586Ã??Ã?¢??538) marks an epochal dividing point in Old Testament history, …

… A new revolt occurred (588-587 BC) in Judea. After a siege of about a year, Jerusalem was finally destroyed in 586 BC …

But you already stipulated that you would not contest the secular dating. . .

So in reference to the Bible dating:

The Bible contains no absolute dates, since our calendar was not invented when any part of the Old Testament was written. It is not possible, therefore, to date events directly. However, the Bible does provide many relative dates. I’ll skip all of the general stuff and go for the jugular . . .

Zechariah 1:7 “On the twenty-fourth day of the eleventh month, that is, the month Shebat, in the second year of Darius, the word of Jehovah occurred to Zechariah the son of BarachiJah the son of IdDo the prophet.”

Majority of scholars agree that this corresponds to February 519-BCE. Notice what a messenger of God said at that time as recorded in verse 12 of Zechariah: “So the angel of Jehovah answered and said: Ã??Ã?¢??O Jehovah of armies, how long will you yourself not show mercy to Jerusalem and to the cities of Judah, whom you have denounced these seventy years?Ã??Ã?¢??”

Yes, for 70 years God had denounced the cities of Judah. This takes us back to 589-BCE. According to the JW persepctive based on the 607 chronology, nothing of significance happened this year, moreover It would be ludicrous for this angel to say the cities had been denounced for “seventy years” if this period started eighteen years after the complete destruction of the capital! He would have had to say " these 83 years". But if the 589 date is correct, then this passage clearly denotes the year when Nebuchadnezzar started the final siege on Jerusalem (2. Kings 25:1; Ezekiel 24:1, 2; Jeremiah 52:4).

Supporters of the 607 chronology have likewise linked these seventy years with the prophecy of Jeremiah, however if this angel was talking about a seventy year period from 607 to 537 - that had ended some 18 years earlier then why would the angel ask �?�¢??how long?�?�¢?? These very words demonstrate that at this point the period of denouncing had not yet ended. And since they continued, they must have started with a major event in 589-BCE. This seventy years is not the same as that of Jeremiah, nor is it even a prophetic period. The angel is simply stating that for seventy years Judah has been denounced, and is asking how much longer it will continue to be so.

Zechariah later delivers an even more fatal blow to those who insist on the 607 chronology. Consider Zechariah 7:1-5:

“Furthermore, it came about that in the fourth year of Darius the king the word of Jehovah occurred to Zechariah, on the fourth day of the ninth month, that is, in Chislev. And Bethel proceeded to send Sharezer and Regem-melech and his men to soften the face of Jehovah, saying to the priests who belonged to the house of Jehovah of armies, and to the prophets, even saying: Ã??Ã?¢??Shall I weep in the fifth month, practicing an abstinence, the way I have done these O how many years?Ã??Ã?¢?? And the word of Jehovah of armies continued to occur to me, saying: Ã??Ã?¢??Say to all the people of the land and to the priests, When you fasted and there was a wailing in the fifth month and in the seventh month, and this for seventy years, did you really fast to me, even me?Ã??Ã?¢??”

The chronological evidence in these verses gives a wealth of information. They had been fasting in the fifth month in order to commemorate how on that day NebuZaradan, the chief of Nebuchadnezzar�?�¢??s bodyguard, after two days of inspection, burned down the city of Jerusalem and its temple. They also fasted in the seventh month to commemorate the assassination of Governor GedaliJah, who was of the royal house of King David and whom Nebuchadnezzar made governor of the land for the Jews that were allowed to remain after the destruction of Jerusalem.

The Israelites asked if they should continue this fasting, so they were obviously doing it at the time and had been for seventy years. The date given for this vision of Zechariah (Chislev 9, 4th year of Darius) corresponds to November 518-BCE. This presents a problem if you want to date the destruction of Jerusalem at 607-BCE since this is some ninety years before. When we count seventy years however we come to the accepted chronology of 586/7-BCE.

then there is also the issue of Daniel’s age . . . but I’ll save that for a later time . . .

sheesh, why is that we have to build these walls of text . . .

[/quote]
Surprisingly, I didn’t see this Irish.

I too can provide a wall of text that can refute the year 587 B.C.E. as being the year Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians but that’s not necessary. The fact that I can use the Bible to see that 1914 was the year when the appointed time of the nations ended and Jesus became king in heaven and seeing the results of Jesus becoming king in heaven based on the Bible gives me complete confidence that 607 B.C.E. was the year Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians. If no world wide major event happened like WWI in 1914 then I would question the 607 B.C.E. date but WWI did happen and the world has never been the same since that year.

Also, thanks for pointing out that the Bible is a divine source. Of course I know that and believe that. What I meant was that none of the information I typed in my post about 1914 was given by divine inspiration meaning a prophetic dream or vision.[/quote]

I have a question. Who cares whether it is 1914 or whatever date Jesus is King and that is all that matters. If you pick a date that startst the end of days, what does that mean? It is not the start of the end of days that matters. It is the final day at armageddon that matters. I might be saying this wrong. Christians beleive Jesus has been King in heaven forever. JWs beleive he has been King in Heaven since 1914. I am looking for the second coming. It is closer today than it was yesterday. A date really does not mean anything.

What are you JWs holding from us? Is there another part of 1914 that you are not telling us? What would it take for your 1914 date to be incorrect? Is this date so open ended that it can never be wrong? All prophecies from God are exact. There is always a way to say a prophet was false. There is a way to prove all the prophecies in the Bible. If there is no way to refute your date of 1914 as being false this is of man and not of God. [/quote]
It absolutely matters. Thankfully, Jehovah alerts his faithful servants so they can be prepared before he executes judgement on the wicked. Again, look to the end of the Jewish system of things and the signs Jesus told his disciples to look for to identify when Jerusalem was going to be destroyed. His disciple who became the Christians were to stay on the watch and actively look for the signs Jesus told them to look for. Staying on the watch helps a person or a group to not lose their focus or become distracted by the different pressures of life. Had they not been faithful and looked for the signs Jesus gave them they would have missed the opportunity to flee to the mountains as Jesus instructed them to when Cestius Gallus withdrew his troops in 66 C.E. On the other hand, the Jews did not pay attention to the signs that the Christians no doubt warned them about during their preaching work. Jesus said at Luke 19:44 that it was because they did not discern the time of them being inspected.

If the time period called the last days did not matter Jesus would not have given signs that his disciples were to look to identify that they were living during Jesus’ presence in heaven and the conclusion of the system of things. Jesus said at Matthew 24:33 regarding the signs he just gave to his disciples that “when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.” Jesus also said to the non-believing Pharisees at Luke 17:20 that “the kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness.” He then turns to his disciples at Luke 17:24 and says that the days of the son of man will be so obvious to them that it will be like lighting flashing in the sky. Why will the days of the Son of Man be like lightening flashing in the sky? Notice what Jesus says to his disciples after giving them signs and conditions to look to at Matthew 24:27:
“27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”
Let me put that together for you. Jesus says to the non-believing Pharisee’s that the kingdom of God is not going to be come with striking observableness. He then immediately turns to his disciples and says that the days of the son of man will be so obvious to them that it will be like lightening flashing in the sky. Later, he tells his disciples to look to signs that will mark his presence and the conclusion of the system. After he tells his disciples the signs he says at Matthew 24:27 that again his presence will be like lightning flashing in the sky. Why will the days of the Son of Man and his presence so obvious to his disciples but not obvious to non-believers? It’s because his disciples will be the ones who pay attention to and discern THE SIGNS. The signs he gave at Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and Paul at 2 Timothy 3 will be so evident during his presence in heaven that his disciples will discern them and know that they are living in the time period Jesus said these signs will identify. And as time passed in the 20th century and the signs became an almost daily occurrence the time period is so obvious to us that it is like lightning flashing in the sky. On the other hand, the non-believers like the Pharisees Jesus was speaking to at Luke 17:20 and the Jews living in Jerusalem before it was destroyed, will not pay attention to and discern the signs, so the kingdom of God and the presence of the son of man will not be strikingly observable to them. Again, Jesus says at Matthew 24:37-39 that there will be people who will be just living their life and they will take no note of the signs Jesus just gave until Armageddon is upon them and they are swept away.

These signs only became evident on a world wide scale in the 20th century. No other time in mans history would those signs Jesus mentioned in three of the gospels and at 2 Timothy 3 been so evident like they’ve been in the last 50 years. During the time we are living in called the conclusion of the system of things, Jesus said in two illustration at Matthew 13:36-41 which is the wheat and the weeds illustration and at Matthew 13:48-50 which is the dragnet illustration that during the conclusion of the system of things Jesus will separate the righteous from the unrighteous. Once they are separated they will be distinguishable by the fruit they produce and their teachings.

622

OK - i’ll try again (I’m a masochist at heart) . . .

I’ll try some new questions and see if I get a different response:

  1. If Christ will not have a visible return to earth, then how will he be seen by “all of the nations of the earth” (Matthew 24) and by “every eye” (Revelation 1) including those who crucified him?

  2. If there are 144,000 spirit anointed people who have a hope of everlasting life in heaven and a great crowd of people who have another hope of everlasting life on paradise earth, why does Paul say that there is ONE HOPE instead of TWO HOPES?

  3. Where is the Great Crowd in Revelation 19:1?

  4. When Jesus is addressing the “great crowd” during the Sermon on the Mount, why does he tell them your reward is great IN HEAVEN?

  5. In Hebrews, the author refers to holy brothers who are partakers of the heavenly calling, and Christ in Mark 3 plainly states that "whoever does the will of God, this one is my brother - therefore according to the Bible, anyone who does the will of God is a brother of Jesus and as a holy brother then also a partaker of the heavenly calling. How can this be if only 144,000 are allowed to go to heaven?

  6. The Watchtower Society teaches that the 144,000 spirit anointed who get to go to heaven are chosen from people who lived after Christ died, BUT Hebrews and Revelation speaks of the faithful of the Old Testament who sought a heavenly place and states that God prepared Heavenly Jerusalem for them?

  7. Can you prove from the inspired Word of God that the door to heaven was shut in 1935 (ie, selection to the heavenly kingdom stopped due to the 144,000 being filled)?

  8. Why did the Watchtower society continually change the definition of a “generation” as more time passed from 1914?

8A: "Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. " (Matthew 24:34 NWT) From: The Truth that leads to Eternal Life 1968, but today, the Governing Body rejects the original “one generation” view.

8B: Before 1952, they marked a generation as 40 years and the “cut off” point for “new light” from God was established at 1952 (37 years from 1914) based on the 37 years from Christ’s death to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (1917 + 37 = 1951) - “The length of time is indicated by him when he said, “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Matt. 24:34) The actual meaning of these words is, beyond question, that which takes a “generation” in the ordinary sense, as at Mark 8:12 and Acts 13:36, or for those who are living at the given period.” (Watchtower, July 1, 1951, p. 404)

8C: The Society received “new light” in 1952: that allowed them to understand that “generation” of 1914 that would see the end could be as long as 70 years (Three score and ten years)(Watchtower, Sept. 1 1952 pp 542-543)

8D: The Society received “new light” in 1984/88: that allowed them to understand that “generation” of 1914 that would see the end would be 75 years. “Jehovah’s prophetic word through Christ Jesus is: “This generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur.” (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment of his Son’s words in a relatively short time.” (Watchtower, May 15, 1984 p6) “J. A. Bengel states in his New Testament Word Studies: “The Hebrews . . . reckon seventy-five years as one generation, and the words, shall not pass away, intimate that the greater part of that generation [of Jesus’ day] indeed, but not the whole of it, should have passed away before all should be fulfilled.”” (Watchtower April 8, 1988 p14)

8E: The Society begin to hedge the bet in 1991: “But we are as strong for it as we ever were, and we are appreciating it all the more the longer we have to wait for it. It is something worth waiting for, even if it required a million years.” (Watchtower Dec 15 1991 p11; late president, Fred Franz)

8F: well, 80 years passed, 1914 + 80 = 1994 and so in 1995 “generation” was revised again: “Eager to see the end of this evil system, Jehovah’s people have at times speculated about the time when the “great tribulation” would break out, even tying this to calculations of what is the lifetime of a generation since 1914. However, we bring a heart of wisdom in, not by speculating about how many years or days makeup a generation, but by thinking about how we “count our days” in bringing joyful praise to Jehovah.” (Watchtower Nov 1, 1995 p18) . . . … and . . . . . .“Does our more precise viewpoint on “this generation” mean that Armageddon is further away than we had thought? Not at all! Though we at no time have known the “day and hour,” Jehovah God has always known it, and he does not change.” (Watchtower Nov 1, 1995 p20) . . . . . and . . . . .“Therefore, in the final fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy today, “this generation” apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the sign of Christ’s presence but fail to mend their ways.” (Watchtower Nov 1, 1995 p19)

8G: Even the masthead of AWAKE! was changed - before 1995 it read: “Why AWAKE! Is Published …Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.” After 1995 it now reads: “Why AWAKE! Is Published … Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure world that is about to replace the present wicked, lawless system of things.”

  1. in calculating the year 1914, the calculation goes like this:

9A: The “seven times” constitute 2,520 days based on 360 lunar days x’s 7 lunar years
9B: Based on the principle of “a day for a year”, 2,520 lunar days is converted to 2,520 lunar years
9C: Adding 2,520 years to 607 BC SUPPOSEDLY brings you to 1914 (2520-607 = 1914)

BUT

9D: those 2520 lunar years were inaccurately applied to a SOLAR calendar. 2,520 lunar years converts into 907,200 days which converts into only 2,483.8 solar years. Round off to 2,484 years - you then arrive at 1878, not 1914 . . .

623

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
thank honest - but all you’re doing is proving the very point I want to make and that is that wars, plagues, famines and earthquakes are all a constant of human experience on earth - they have occurred since the fall and will continue to occur - so the signs of Christ’s return are applicable in all times and in all place - therefore to use the appearance of signs as proof of something can be made at any time. To say that something changed in 1914 based on these types of events is ludicrous on its face, because it is just the continuation of the same old same old . . . Christ’s VISIBLE return is an imminent event - it can happen at any time and the only signs of his return will be that continuation of events that already occur.

[/quote]

Sure, if you want to look at it that way. No one is forcing you to admit anything. The best anyone can do is present data.

What you are saying is exactly what the Bible said people would say.

2 Peter 3:4
They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Of the entire earth only 8 made it through the flood. 8 people. No one outside of Noah’s immediate family listened to his warnings. Jesus said that these days would be like Noah’s. None of the resistance here surprises me.[/quote]

OHHH NO NO NO NO! Au Contrare! There is a world of difference between doubting his return and using the continuation of world events to support that doubt and EXPECTING his return knowing that it could be at any moment and acknowledging that there will be no NEW signs of his coming.
[/quote]

Hmm. OK, but this isn’t just a continuation of world events. It is an increased occurence of Wars, Famines, ETC.

If you want to BELIEVE it is just a continuation of world events, I already said that is your choice. That is what the people of Noah’s day did.

The 20th Century is considered the most deadly century in human history. Coincidence or Significance? I personally believe significance based on what I have learned from the Bible.[/quote]

No, there is an increased recording of these events, but the increse in population size during the 20th century belies an increase in death rates - Life expectancy is higher, population is higher, birth rates are higher . . . we are more aware of the adverse events in the last century becasue of our proximity to them and our global communications.

Yes, I do believe it is the continuation of the same events humnaity has faced since the garden and Jesus indiciated, thus no man knows the day nor the hour of His return.

based in raw numbers, yes, the 20th century was one of the deadliest, but not the deadliest and then when seen in percentage of living population - nope, sorry. The case for 1914 is still just as weak - disputed biblicla intepretation, no historical/archeological evidence and very weak “signs” rationale . . . .[/quote]

What was the deadliest Century then?[/quote]

I’d vote for the 14th. The black plague took out 50% of Europe and about 30% of the world’s population at that time.[/quote]

I would agree with you on this. Revelation makes it clear that 1/3 of the earth will perish. The black plague showed that happened, long before 1914.

624

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
oh, well,

here goes: first the general quotes from all sorts of encyclopedias, etc . . .

… The intervening years after the fall of Samaria (722-BCE), and after the destruction of Jerusalem (586-BCE), were probably marked by closer intercourse, similar to the period of union in the popular traditions relating to the pre-monarchical age.

… This brought about the final siege of the city, which was at length taken and destroyed (B.C. 586).

… Some of the most important prophets and poets lived during the Babylonian Exile, the period of captivity that followed BabylonÃ???Ã??Ã?¢??s conquest of Judah in 587 or 586 B.C.

… In 586 B.C. it fell to the Babylonians, and the Temple was destroyed.

… Nebuchadnezzar subsequently engaged in several military campaigns designed to increase Babylonian influence in Syria and Judah, capturing Jerusalem in 597 BC, bringing King JehoiAchin to Babylon. Another siege of Jerusalem occurred in 586 BC, ending in the destruction of both the city and the Temple and the deportation of many prominent citizens to Babylon.

… Ashkelon was utterly destroyed by [Nebuchadnezzar], the Babylonian leader who later destroyed Jerusalem and SolomonÃ???Ã??Ã?¢??s Temple in 586 B.C.E.

The Babylonian Exile (586Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??538) marks an epochal dividing point in Old Testament history, …

… A new revolt occurred (588-587 BC) in Judea. After a siege of about a year, Jerusalem was finally destroyed in 586 BC …

But you already stipulated that you would not contest the secular dating. . .

So in reference to the Bible dating:

The Bible contains no absolute dates, since our calendar was not invented when any part of the Old Testament was written. It is not possible, therefore, to date events directly. However, the Bible does provide many relative dates. I’ll skip all of the general stuff and go for the jugular . . .

Zechariah 1:7 “On the twenty-fourth day of the eleventh month, that is, the month Shebat, in the second year of Darius, the word of Jehovah occurred to Zechariah the son of BarachiJah the son of IdDo the prophet.”

Majority of scholars agree that this corresponds to February 519-BCE. Notice what a messenger of God said at that time as recorded in verse 12 of Zechariah: “So the angel of Jehovah answered and said: Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??O Jehovah of armies, how long will you yourself not show mercy to Jerusalem and to the cities of Judah, whom you have denounced these seventy years?Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??”

Yes, for 70 years God had denounced the cities of Judah. This takes us back to 589-BCE. According to the JW persepctive based on the 607 chronology, nothing of significance happened this year, moreover It would be ludicrous for this angel to say the cities had been denounced for “seventy years” if this period started eighteen years after the complete destruction of the capital! He would have had to say " these 83 years". But if the 589 date is correct, then this passage clearly denotes the year when Nebuchadnezzar started the final siege on Jerusalem (2. Kings 25:1; Ezekiel 24:1, 2; Jeremiah 52:4).

Supporters of the 607 chronology have likewise linked these seventy years with the prophecy of Jeremiah, however if this angel was talking about a seventy year period from 607 to 537 - that had ended some 18 years earlier then why would the angel ask �??�?�¢??how long?�??�?�¢?? These very words demonstrate that at this point the period of denouncing had not yet ended. And since they continued, they must have started with a major event in 589-BCE. This seventy years is not the same as that of Jeremiah, nor is it even a prophetic period. The angel is simply stating that for seventy years Judah has been denounced, and is asking how much longer it will continue to be so.

Zechariah later delivers an even more fatal blow to those who insist on the 607 chronology. Consider Zechariah 7:1-5:

“Furthermore, it came about that in the fourth year of Darius the king the word of Jehovah occurred to Zechariah, on the fourth day of the ninth month, that is, in Chislev. And Bethel proceeded to send Sharezer and Regem-melech and his men to soften the face of Jehovah, saying to the priests who belonged to the house of Jehovah of armies, and to the prophets, even saying: Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Shall I weep in the fifth month, practicing an abstinence, the way I have done these O how many years?Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?? And the word of Jehovah of armies continued to occur to me, saying: Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Say to all the people of the land and to the priests, When you fasted and there was a wailing in the fifth month and in the seventh month, and this for seventy years, did you really fast to me, even me?Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??”

The chronological evidence in these verses gives a wealth of information. They had been fasting in the fifth month in order to commemorate how on that day NebuZaradan, the chief of Nebuchadnezzar�??�?�¢??s bodyguard, after two days of inspection, burned down the city of Jerusalem and its temple. They also fasted in the seventh month to commemorate the assassination of Governor GedaliJah, who was of the royal house of King David and whom Nebuchadnezzar made governor of the land for the Jews that were allowed to remain after the destruction of Jerusalem.

The Israelites asked if they should continue this fasting, so they were obviously doing it at the time and had been for seventy years. The date given for this vision of Zechariah (Chislev 9, 4th year of Darius) corresponds to November 518-BCE. This presents a problem if you want to date the destruction of Jerusalem at 607-BCE since this is some ninety years before. When we count seventy years however we come to the accepted chronology of 586/7-BCE.

then there is also the issue of Daniel’s age . . . but I’ll save that for a later time . . .

sheesh, why is that we have to build these walls of text . . .

[/quote]
Surprisingly, I didn’t see this Irish.

I too can provide a wall of text that can refute the year 587 B.C.E. as being the year Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians but that’s not necessary. The fact that I can use the Bible to see that 1914 was the year when the appointed time of the nations ended and Jesus became king in heaven and seeing the results of Jesus becoming king in heaven based on the Bible gives me complete confidence that 607 B.C.E. was the year Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians. If no world wide major event happened like WWI in 1914 then I would question the 607 B.C.E. date but WWI did happen and the world has never been the same since that year.

Also, thanks for pointing out that the Bible is a divine source. Of course I know that and believe that. What I meant was that none of the information I typed in my post about 1914 was given by divine inspiration meaning a prophetic dream or vision.[/quote]

I have a question. Who cares whether it is 1914 or whatever date Jesus is King and that is all that matters. If you pick a date that startst the end of days, what does that mean? It is not the start of the end of days that matters. It is the final day at armageddon that matters. I might be saying this wrong. Christians beleive Jesus has been King in heaven forever. JWs beleive he has been King in Heaven since 1914. I am looking for the second coming. It is closer today than it was yesterday. A date really does not mean anything.

What are you JWs holding from us? Is there another part of 1914 that you are not telling us? What would it take for your 1914 date to be incorrect? Is this date so open ended that it can never be wrong? All prophecies from God are exact. There is always a way to say a prophet was false. There is a way to prove all the prophecies in the Bible. If there is no way to refute your date of 1914 as being false this is of man and not of God. [/quote]
It absolutely matters. Thankfully, Jehovah alerts his faithful servants so they can be prepared before he executes judgement on the wicked. Again, look to the end of the Jewish system of things and the signs Jesus told his disciples to look for to identify when Jerusalem was going to be destroyed. His disciple who became the Christians were to stay on the watch and actively look for the signs Jesus told them to look for. Staying on the watch helps a person or a group to not lose their focus or become distracted by the different pressures of life. Had they not been faithful and looked for the signs Jesus gave them they would have missed the opportunity to flee to the mountains as Jesus instructed them to when Cestius Gallus withdrew his troops in 66 C.E. On the other hand, the Jews did not pay attention to the signs that the Christians no doubt warned them about during their preaching work. Jesus said at Luke 19:44 that it was because they did not discern the time of them being inspected.

If the time period called the last days did not matter Jesus would not have given signs that his disciples were to look to identify that they were living during Jesus’ presence in heaven and the conclusion of the system of things. Jesus said at Matthew 24:33 regarding the signs he just gave to his disciples that “when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.” Jesus also said to the non-believing Pharisees at Luke 17:20 that “the kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness.” He then turns to his disciples at Luke 17:24 and says that the days of the son of man will be so obvious to them that it will be like lighting flashing in the sky. Why will the days of the Son of Man be like lightening flashing in the sky? Notice what Jesus says to his disciples after giving them signs and conditions to look to at Matthew 24:27:
“27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”
Let me put that together for you. Jesus says to the non-believing Pharisee’s that the kingdom of God is not going to be come with striking observableness. He then immediately turns to his disciples and says that the days of the son of man will be so obvious to them that it will be like lightening flashing in the sky. Later, he tells his disciples to look to signs that will mark his presence and the conclusion of the system. After he tells his disciples the signs he says at Matthew 24:27 that again his presence will be like lightning flashing in the sky. Why will the days of the Son of Man and his presence so obvious to his disciples but not obvious to non-believers? It’s because his disciples will be the ones who pay attention to and discern THE SIGNS. The signs he gave at Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and Paul at 2 Timothy 3 will be so evident during his presence in heaven that his disciples will discern them and know that they are living in the time period Jesus said these signs will identify. And as time passed in the 20th century and the signs became an almost daily occurrence the time period is so obvious to us that it is like lightning flashing in the sky. On the other hand, the non-believers like the Pharisees Jesus was speaking to at Luke 17:20 and the Jews living in Jerusalem before it was destroyed, will not pay attention to and discern the signs, so the kingdom of God and the presence of the son of man will not be strikingly observable to them. Again, Jesus says at Matthew 24:37-39 that there will be people who will be just living their life and they will take no note of the signs Jesus just gave until Armageddon is upon them and they are swept away.

These signs only became evident on a world wide scale in the 20th century. No other time in mans history would those signs Jesus mentioned in three of the gospels and at 2 Timothy 3 been so evident like they’ve been in the last 50 years. During the time we are living in called the conclusion of the system of things, Jesus said in two illustration at Matthew 13:36-41 which is the wheat and the weeds illustration and at Matthew 13:48-50 which is the dragnet illustration that during the conclusion of the system of things Jesus will separate the righteous from the unrighteous. Once they are separated they will be distinguishable by the fruit they produce and their teachings.[/quote]

Look at the post by Irish. He states my argument a lot better than I did.

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[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
OK - i’ll try again (I’m a masochist at heart) . . .

I’ll try some new questions and see if I get a different response:

  1. If Christ will not have a visible return to earth, then how will he be seen by “all of the nations of the earth” (Matthew 24) and by “every eye” (Revelation 1) including those who crucified him?

  2. If there are 144,000 spirit anointed people who have a hope of everlasting life in heaven and a great crowd of people who have another hope of everlasting life on paradise earth, why does Paul say that there is ONE HOPE instead of TWO HOPES?

  3. Where is the Great Crowd in Revelation 19:1?

  4. When Jesus is addressing the “great crowd” during the Sermon on the Mount, why does he tell them your reward is great IN HEAVEN?

  5. In Hebrews, the author refers to holy brothers who are partakers of the heavenly calling, and Christ in Mark 3 plainly states that "whoever does the will of God, this one is my brother - therefore according to the Bible, anyone who does the will of God is a brother of Jesus and as a holy brother then also a partaker of the heavenly calling. How can this be if only 144,000 are allowed to go to heaven?

  6. The Watchtower Society teaches that the 144,000 spirit anointed who get to go to heaven are chosen from people who lived after Christ died, BUT Hebrews and Revelation speaks of the faithful of the Old Testament who sought a heavenly place and states that God prepared Heavenly Jerusalem for them?

  7. Can you prove from the inspired Word of God that the door to heaven was shut in 1935 (ie, selection to the heavenly kingdom stopped due to the 144,000 being filled)?

  8. Why did the Watchtower society continually change the definition of a “generation” as more time passed from 1914?

8A: "Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. " (Matthew 24:34 NWT) From: The Truth that leads to Eternal Life 1968, but today, the Governing Body rejects the original “one generation” view.

8B: Before 1952, they marked a generation as 40 years and the “cut off” point for “new light” from God was established at 1952 (37 years from 1914) based on the 37 years from Christ’s death to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (1917 + 37 = 1951) - “The length of time is indicated by him when he said, “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Matt. 24:34) The actual meaning of these words is, beyond question, that which takes a “generation” in the ordinary sense, as at Mark 8:12 and Acts 13:36, or for those who are living at the given period.” (Watchtower, July 1, 1951, p. 404)

8C: The Society received “new light” in 1952: that allowed them to understand that “generation” of 1914 that would see the end could be as long as 70 years (Three score and ten years)(Watchtower, Sept. 1 1952 pp 542-543)

8D: The Society received “new light” in 1984/88: that allowed them to understand that “generation” of 1914 that would see the end would be 75 years. “Jehovah’s prophetic word through Christ Jesus is: “This generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur.” (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment of his Son’s words in a relatively short time.” (Watchtower, May 15, 1984 p6) “J. A. Bengel states in his New Testament Word Studies: “The Hebrews . . . reckon seventy-five years as one generation, and the words, shall not pass away, intimate that the greater part of that generation [of Jesus’ day] indeed, but not the whole of it, should have passed away before all should be fulfilled.”” (Watchtower April 8, 1988 p14)

8E: The Society begin to hedge the bet in 1991: “But we are as strong for it as we ever were, and we are appreciating it all the more the longer we have to wait for it. It is something worth waiting for, even if it required a million years.” (Watchtower Dec 15 1991 p11; late president, Fred Franz)

8F: well, 80 years passed, 1914 + 80 = 1994 and so in 1995 “generation” was revised again: “Eager to see the end of this evil system, Jehovah’s people have at times speculated about the time when the “great tribulation” would break out, even tying this to calculations of what is the lifetime of a generation since 1914. However, we bring a heart of wisdom in, not by speculating about how many years or days makeup a generation, but by thinking about how we “count our days” in bringing joyful praise to Jehovah.” (Watchtower Nov 1, 1995 p18) . . . … and . . . . . .“Does our more precise viewpoint on “this generation” mean that Armageddon is further away than we had thought? Not at all! Though we at no time have known the “day and hour,” Jehovah God has always known it, and he does not change.” (Watchtower Nov 1, 1995 p20) . . . . . and . . . . .“Therefore, in the final fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy today, “this generation” apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the sign of Christ’s presence but fail to mend their ways.” (Watchtower Nov 1, 1995 p19)

8G: Even the masthead of AWAKE! was changed - before 1995 it read: “Why AWAKE! Is Published …Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.” After 1995 it now reads: “Why AWAKE! Is Published … Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure world that is about to replace the present wicked, lawless system of things.”

  1. in calculating the year 1914, the calculation goes like this:

9A: The “seven times” constitute 2,520 days based on 360 lunar days x’s 7 lunar years
9B: Based on the principle of “a day for a year”, 2,520 lunar days is converted to 2,520 lunar years
9C: Adding 2,520 years to 607 BC SUPPOSEDLY brings you to 1914 (2520-607 = 1914)

BUT

9D: those 2520 lunar years were inaccurately applied to a SOLAR calendar. 2,520 lunar years converts into 907,200 days which converts into only 2,483.8 solar years. Round off to 2,484 years - you then arrive at 1878, not 1914 . . .

[/quote]

mse2us, this argument.

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[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
oh, well,

here goes: first the general quotes from all sorts of encyclopedias, etc . . .

… The intervening years after the fall of Samaria (722-BCE), and after the destruction of Jerusalem (586-BCE), were probably marked by closer intercourse, similar to the period of union in the popular traditions relating to the pre-monarchical age.

… This brought about the final siege of the city, which was at length taken and destroyed (B.C. 586).

… Some of the most important prophets and poets lived during the Babylonian Exile, the period of captivity that followed BabylonÃ???Ã??Ã?¢??s conquest of Judah in 587 or 586 B.C.

… In 586 B.C. it fell to the Babylonians, and the Temple was destroyed.

… Nebuchadnezzar subsequently engaged in several military campaigns designed to increase Babylonian influence in Syria and Judah, capturing Jerusalem in 597 BC, bringing King JehoiAchin to Babylon. Another siege of Jerusalem occurred in 586 BC, ending in the destruction of both the city and the Temple and the deportation of many prominent citizens to Babylon.

… Ashkelon was utterly destroyed by [Nebuchadnezzar], the Babylonian leader who later destroyed Jerusalem and SolomonÃ???Ã??Ã?¢??s Temple in 586 B.C.E.

The Babylonian Exile (586Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??538) marks an epochal dividing point in Old Testament history, …

… A new revolt occurred (588-587 BC) in Judea. After a siege of about a year, Jerusalem was finally destroyed in 586 BC …

But you already stipulated that you would not contest the secular dating. . .

So in reference to the Bible dating:

The Bible contains no absolute dates, since our calendar was not invented when any part of the Old Testament was written. It is not possible, therefore, to date events directly. However, the Bible does provide many relative dates. I’ll skip all of the general stuff and go for the jugular . . .

Zechariah 1:7 “On the twenty-fourth day of the eleventh month, that is, the month Shebat, in the second year of Darius, the word of Jehovah occurred to Zechariah the son of BarachiJah the son of IdDo the prophet.”

Majority of scholars agree that this corresponds to February 519-BCE. Notice what a messenger of God said at that time as recorded in verse 12 of Zechariah: “So the angel of Jehovah answered and said: Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??O Jehovah of armies, how long will you yourself not show mercy to Jerusalem and to the cities of Judah, whom you have denounced these seventy years?Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??”

Yes, for 70 years God had denounced the cities of Judah. This takes us back to 589-BCE. According to the JW persepctive based on the 607 chronology, nothing of significance happened this year, moreover It would be ludicrous for this angel to say the cities had been denounced for “seventy years” if this period started eighteen years after the complete destruction of the capital! He would have had to say " these 83 years". But if the 589 date is correct, then this passage clearly denotes the year when Nebuchadnezzar started the final siege on Jerusalem (2. Kings 25:1; Ezekiel 24:1, 2; Jeremiah 52:4).

Supporters of the 607 chronology have likewise linked these seventy years with the prophecy of Jeremiah, however if this angel was talking about a seventy year period from 607 to 537 - that had ended some 18 years earlier then why would the angel ask �??�?�¢??how long?�??�?�¢?? These very words demonstrate that at this point the period of denouncing had not yet ended. And since they continued, they must have started with a major event in 589-BCE. This seventy years is not the same as that of Jeremiah, nor is it even a prophetic period. The angel is simply stating that for seventy years Judah has been denounced, and is asking how much longer it will continue to be so.

Zechariah later delivers an even more fatal blow to those who insist on the 607 chronology. Consider Zechariah 7:1-5:

“Furthermore, it came about that in the fourth year of Darius the king the word of Jehovah occurred to Zechariah, on the fourth day of the ninth month, that is, in Chislev. And Bethel proceeded to send Sharezer and Regem-melech and his men to soften the face of Jehovah, saying to the priests who belonged to the house of Jehovah of armies, and to the prophets, even saying: Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Shall I weep in the fifth month, practicing an abstinence, the way I have done these O how many years?Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?? And the word of Jehovah of armies continued to occur to me, saying: Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Say to all the people of the land and to the priests, When you fasted and there was a wailing in the fifth month and in the seventh month, and this for seventy years, did you really fast to me, even me?Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??”

The chronological evidence in these verses gives a wealth of information. They had been fasting in the fifth month in order to commemorate how on that day NebuZaradan, the chief of Nebuchadnezzar�??�?�¢??s bodyguard, after two days of inspection, burned down the city of Jerusalem and its temple. They also fasted in the seventh month to commemorate the assassination of Governor GedaliJah, who was of the royal house of King David and whom Nebuchadnezzar made governor of the land for the Jews that were allowed to remain after the destruction of Jerusalem.

The Israelites asked if they should continue this fasting, so they were obviously doing it at the time and had been for seventy years. The date given for this vision of Zechariah (Chislev 9, 4th year of Darius) corresponds to November 518-BCE. This presents a problem if you want to date the destruction of Jerusalem at 607-BCE since this is some ninety years before. When we count seventy years however we come to the accepted chronology of 586/7-BCE.

then there is also the issue of Daniel’s age . . . but I’ll save that for a later time . . .

sheesh, why is that we have to build these walls of text . . .

[/quote]
Surprisingly, I didn’t see this Irish.

I too can provide a wall of text that can refute the year 587 B.C.E. as being the year Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians but that’s not necessary. The fact that I can use the Bible to see that 1914 was the year when the appointed time of the nations ended and Jesus became king in heaven and seeing the results of Jesus becoming king in heaven based on the Bible gives me complete confidence that 607 B.C.E. was the year Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians. If no world wide major event happened like WWI in 1914 then I would question the 607 B.C.E. date but WWI did happen and the world has never been the same since that year.

Also, thanks for pointing out that the Bible is a divine source. Of course I know that and believe that. What I meant was that none of the information I typed in my post about 1914 was given by divine inspiration meaning a prophetic dream or vision.[/quote]

I have a question. Who cares whether it is 1914 or whatever date Jesus is King and that is all that matters. If you pick a date that startst the end of days, what does that mean? It is not the start of the end of days that matters. It is the final day at armageddon that matters. I might be saying this wrong. Christians beleive Jesus has been King in heaven forever. JWs beleive he has been King in Heaven since 1914. I am looking for the second coming. It is closer today than it was yesterday. A date really does not mean anything.

What are you JWs holding from us? Is there another part of 1914 that you are not telling us? What would it take for your 1914 date to be incorrect? Is this date so open ended that it can never be wrong? All prophecies from God are exact. There is always a way to say a prophet was false. There is a way to prove all the prophecies in the Bible. If there is no way to refute your date of 1914 as being false this is of man and not of God. [/quote]
It absolutely matters. Thankfully, Jehovah alerts his faithful servants so they can be prepared before he executes judgement on the wicked. Again, look to the end of the Jewish system of things and the signs Jesus told his disciples to look for to identify when Jerusalem was going to be destroyed. His disciple who became the Christians were to stay on the watch and actively look for the signs Jesus told them to look for. Staying on the watch helps a person or a group to not lose their focus or become distracted by the different pressures of life. Had they not been faithful and looked for the signs Jesus gave them they would have missed the opportunity to flee to the mountains as Jesus instructed them to when Cestius Gallus withdrew his troops in 66 C.E. On the other hand, the Jews did not pay attention to the signs that the Christians no doubt warned them about during their preaching work. Jesus said at Luke 19:44 that it was because they did not discern the time of them being inspected.

If the time period called the last days did not matter Jesus would not have given signs that his disciples were to look to identify that they were living during Jesus’ presence in heaven and the conclusion of the system of things. Jesus said at Matthew 24:33 regarding the signs he just gave to his disciples that “when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.” Jesus also said to the non-believing Pharisees at Luke 17:20 that “the kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness.” He then turns to his disciples at Luke 17:24 and says that the days of the son of man will be so obvious to them that it will be like lighting flashing in the sky. Why will the days of the Son of Man be like lightening flashing in the sky? Notice what Jesus says to his disciples after giving them signs and conditions to look to at Matthew 24:27:
“27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”
Let me put that together for you. Jesus says to the non-believing Pharisee’s that the kingdom of God is not going to be come with striking observableness. He then immediately turns to his disciples and says that the days of the son of man will be so obvious to them that it will be like lightening flashing in the sky. Later, he tells his disciples to look to signs that will mark his presence and the conclusion of the system. After he tells his disciples the signs he says at Matthew 24:27 that again his presence will be like lightning flashing in the sky. Why will the days of the Son of Man and his presence so obvious to his disciples but not obvious to non-believers? It’s because his disciples will be the ones who pay attention to and discern THE SIGNS. The signs he gave at Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and Paul at 2 Timothy 3 will be so evident during his presence in heaven that his disciples will discern them and know that they are living in the time period Jesus said these signs will identify. And as time passed in the 20th century and the signs became an almost daily occurrence the time period is so obvious to us that it is like lightning flashing in the sky. On the other hand, the non-believers like the Pharisees Jesus was speaking to at Luke 17:20 and the Jews living in Jerusalem before it was destroyed, will not pay attention to and discern the signs, so the kingdom of God and the presence of the son of man will not be strikingly observable to them. Again, Jesus says at Matthew 24:37-39 that there will be people who will be just living their life and they will take no note of the signs Jesus just gave until Armageddon is upon them and they are swept away.

These signs only became evident on a world wide scale in the 20th century. No other time in mans history would those signs Jesus mentioned in three of the gospels and at 2 Timothy 3 been so evident like they’ve been in the last 50 years. During the time we are living in called the conclusion of the system of things, Jesus said in two illustration at Matthew 13:36-41 which is the wheat and the weeds illustration and at Matthew 13:48-50 which is the dragnet illustration that during the conclusion of the system of things Jesus will separate the righteous from the unrighteous. Once they are separated they will be distinguishable by the fruit they produce and their teachings.[/quote]

Yet another wall of words. The 1914 date does not appear in the bible, period. Every period is unlike the one before it, not exactly a smoking gun. Bad shit happened in the past, is happening now and will happen in the future.
It looks like you are copying and pasting a great deal of info from prepared manuscripts. It is laborious to trudge through.

The prevalence of the signs correlate exceptionally well with the evolution of communications technology and population growth. More people, more problems. Faster, better communication, your going to hear about it faster. It does not stand to reason that the world is coming to an end. If it is, I still don’t care. I’ll bid it adieu.

Now, important question. You said Jesus gave you the signs so you would be prepared. Should you not always be prepared?
And what about Mt 24:34? “Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.” Was he talking about his disciples or the JW some 1800 years later?

Who are the wicked?

Lastly, why are you so obsessed with the end? If it happens it happens, at least I won’t have to worry about my mortgage anymore.

627

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Again, these signs, war, famine, pestilence and earthquakes make up some of the signs that Jesus said would mark his presence and the conclusion of the system of things at Matthew 24:3. After telling his disciples these signs, he give an illustration at Matthew 24:32,33 which states: 32 “Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, YOU know that summer is near. 33 Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.” [quote]

Then why are the four greatest famines of history found prior to the 20th Century?

The Great Famine of Bengal in 1769 (estimated 10 million people died), The Great Irish Famine beginning in 1845 (over 1 million died in tiny Ireland), and the Chinese Famine of 1878, and the Sudan/Ethiopia famine of 1888. . . . .

Why are the worst plagues found prior to the 20th century as well?

Smallpox - first recorded in 430 BC and killing millions of people prior to the 2oth century including killing nearly ALL of the inhabitants of the Americas . . .

Black Death (1300 thru 1700’) killed an estimated 75 million people . . .

Malaria - first recorded in 1600 - killing an estimated million people per year since discovered . . .

Cholera - first recorded in 1817 and 6 pandemics prior to the 20th century . . .

Typhus - first recorded around 430 BC - famously responsible for the Plague of Athens and wiping out Napoleon’s army in Russia - killing millions in various epidemics raging from the 16th to the 19th centuries. . .

Battles and wars and losses of human lives? - no single battle of WW1 even tops the top 50 greatest single battles of history in deaths . . . the Mongol Conquests killed more than WW1 . . .

It seems to me that picking any one date based on those criteria requires ignoring a lot of history. So you have disputed biblical interpretation, no archeological/historical support and weak connection based on famine/war/plague . . . doesn’t seem like a strong position to me. But I could be wrong . . .

[/quote]
You misunderstand Irish. I never said that 1914 was the first year these event ever occurred. I said that in 1914 three of the major signs happened in sequence. A world war that never occurred, as a result of the world war food shortages started to occur in different parts of the world from around 1916 - 1918. And then in 1918 the Spanish flu killed an estimated 50 - 100 million people world wide in only a year and a half. This is the exact order of the horseman of the apocalypse that ride with the newly crowned Jesus - war, famine and plague.

I said that as technology got more advanced in the 20th century the signs that Jesus mentions war, earthquakes, food shortages, pestilence and the human traits that Paul said would be dominant among mankind during the last days at 2 Timothy 3:1-5 would become more evident due to information traveling faster and all parts of the world being able to see. The famines, the earthquakes and the pestilence that you mentioned above would not have been known about in other parts of the world. Prior to the 20th century news traveled at a snails pace if at all and most people in the areas that weren’t affected by the events that you mentioned above would not have known about them. The Black Death was devastating but it only affected that part of the world so people in the non-affected areas would not have known about it. The same can be said of Malaria. If a big earthquake happened in Asia prior to the 20th century the whole world would not have known about it. The signs Jesus told his disciples to look for were not clear to the whole world prior to the 20th century. Some people could honestly say that they did not see the signs prior to the 20th century.

Irish, it’s not the severity of the events that make them evident and discernable and therefore serve as signs; it’s the visibility and the frequency of the events that make them evident and discernable and therefore become signs. If people did not see the events that you listed above and in some of your other post, then they would not have been signs. Even when modern technology was in it’s infancy in 1914 - 1918 the events that occurred the whole world was able to see. A world war where 90% of the earth’s nations were involved and the Spanish flu a plague that affected every part of the world and killed between 50 - 100 million people worldwide in only a year and a half. Then as technology quickly increased in the decades that followed the signs became more frequent and visible on an earth wide scale. Today, with information traveling at what’s almost the speed of light the signs that mark Jesus’ presence in heaven as king and the last days of this system of things happen so often around the world that no one can miss them. I myself have heard in the news 7 earthquakes over 6.0 on the richter scale since January. If this was the 1800’s for example, I would not have heard of any.

According to Daniel 2:44 God’s kingdom that Jesus is king of is going to crush all the governmental powers of the earth and this kingdom will rule over the whole earth forever. Since this involves the whole earth, Jehovah in all his wisdom and justice is making sure that the signs that mark the last days are clearly visible on an earth wide scale so that no one can say they didn’t see them and so that his faithful servants can discern them and know that his son is near at the doors. Prior to the 20th century these signs would not have been clearly visible for the whole world to see. Again, when the end comes no one will be able to say that they did not see the signs.

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Attach your own value to the following.

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Another.

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mse2us, you do know that the Mongols waged war over more territory than WWI and WWII put together. It covered Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. The Mongols started the first World War. The black plague started at the same time, and there were famines all over the place because the Mongols burned everything in their path. This could be used the same way you are using 1914.

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[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
OK - i’ll try again (I’m a masochist at heart) . . .

I’ll try some new questions and see if I get a different response:

  1. If Christ will not have a visible return to earth, then how will he be seen by “all of the nations of the earth” (Matthew 24) and by “every eye” (Revelation 1) including those who crucified him?

  2. If there are 144,000 spirit anointed people who have a hope of everlasting life in heaven and a great crowd of people who have another hope of everlasting life on paradise earth, why does Paul say that there is ONE HOPE instead of TWO HOPES?

  3. Where is the Great Crowd in Revelation 19:1?

  4. When Jesus is addressing the “great crowd” during the Sermon on the Mount, why does he tell them your reward is great IN HEAVEN?

  5. In Hebrews, the author refers to holy brothers who are partakers of the heavenly calling, and Christ in Mark 3 plainly states that "whoever does the will of God, this one is my brother - therefore according to the Bible, anyone who does the will of God is a brother of Jesus and as a holy brother then also a partaker of the heavenly calling. How can this be if only 144,000 are allowed to go to heaven?

  6. The Watchtower Society teaches that the 144,000 spirit anointed who get to go to heaven are chosen from people who lived after Christ died, BUT Hebrews and Revelation speaks of the faithful of the Old Testament who sought a heavenly place and states that God prepared Heavenly Jerusalem for them?

  7. Can you prove from the inspired Word of God that the door to heaven was shut in 1935 (ie, selection to the heavenly kingdom stopped due to the 144,000 being filled)?

  8. Why did the Watchtower society continually change the definition of a “generation” as more time passed from 1914?

8A: "Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. " (Matthew 24:34 NWT) From: The Truth that leads to Eternal Life 1968, but today, the Governing Body rejects the original “one generation” view.

8B: Before 1952, they marked a generation as 40 years and the “cut off” point for “new light” from God was established at 1952 (37 years from 1914) based on the 37 years from Christ’s death to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (1917 + 37 = 1951) - “The length of time is indicated by him when he said, “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Matt. 24:34) The actual meaning of these words is, beyond question, that which takes a “generation” in the ordinary sense, as at Mark 8:12 and Acts 13:36, or for those who are living at the given period.” (Watchtower, July 1, 1951, p. 404)

8C: The Society received “new light” in 1952: that allowed them to understand that “generation” of 1914 that would see the end could be as long as 70 years (Three score and ten years)(Watchtower, Sept. 1 1952 pp 542-543)

8D: The Society received “new light” in 1984/88: that allowed them to understand that “generation” of 1914 that would see the end would be 75 years. “Jehovah’s prophetic word through Christ Jesus is: “This generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur.” (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment of his Son’s words in a relatively short time.” (Watchtower, May 15, 1984 p6) “J. A. Bengel states in his New Testament Word Studies: “The Hebrews . . . reckon seventy-five years as one generation, and the words, shall not pass away, intimate that the greater part of that generation [of Jesus’ day] indeed, but not the whole of it, should have passed away before all should be fulfilled.”” (Watchtower April 8, 1988 p14)

8E: The Society begin to hedge the bet in 1991: “But we are as strong for it as we ever were, and we are appreciating it all the more the longer we have to wait for it. It is something worth waiting for, even if it required a million years.” (Watchtower Dec 15 1991 p11; late president, Fred Franz)

8F: well, 80 years passed, 1914 + 80 = 1994 and so in 1995 “generation” was revised again: “Eager to see the end of this evil system, Jehovah’s people have at times speculated about the time when the “great tribulation” would break out, even tying this to calculations of what is the lifetime of a generation since 1914. However, we bring a heart of wisdom in, not by speculating about how many years or days makeup a generation, but by thinking about how we “count our days” in bringing joyful praise to Jehovah.” (Watchtower Nov 1, 1995 p18) . . . … and . . . . . .“Does our more precise viewpoint on “this generation” mean that Armageddon is further away than we had thought? Not at all! Though we at no time have known the “day and hour,” Jehovah God has always known it, and he does not change.” (Watchtower Nov 1, 1995 p20) . . . . . and . . . . .“Therefore, in the final fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy today, “this generation” apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the sign of Christ’s presence but fail to mend their ways.” (Watchtower Nov 1, 1995 p19)

8G: Even the masthead of AWAKE! was changed - before 1995 it read: “Why AWAKE! Is Published …Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.” After 1995 it now reads: “Why AWAKE! Is Published … Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure world that is about to replace the present wicked, lawless system of things.”

  1. in calculating the year 1914, the calculation goes like this:

9A: The “seven times” constitute 2,520 days based on 360 lunar days x’s 7 lunar years
9B: Based on the principle of “a day for a year”, 2,520 lunar days is converted to 2,520 lunar years
9C: Adding 2,520 years to 607 BC SUPPOSEDLY brings you to 1914 (2520-607 = 1914)

BUT

9D: those 2520 lunar years were inaccurately applied to a SOLAR calendar. 2,520 lunar years converts into 907,200 days which converts into only 2,483.8 solar years. Round off to 2,484 years - you then arrive at 1878, not 1914 . . .

[/quote]
Irish, I answered all of the five points that you listed about the trinity, in detail using the Bible. They were not all answered in one post and some of them were long so maybe that’s why you missed them. For example, you said due to the fact that both Jehovah and Jesus are called shepherd they are one in the same. I answered that point by saying that yes both Jesus and Jehovah are called shepherd but that doesn’t mean they are the same being. That’s the only way I agreed to your points. I gave the definition of what a shepherd is which is someone who cares for his people. I then pointed out that other people in the Bible are called shepherds. I listed several scriptures to show that Moses was called a shepherd and even Cyrus the Persian is called God’s shepherd. So Jesus being called a shepherd does not mean he is God Almighty just because God is called. I’ll repost my answers to your five points and I’ll answer the points you made above.

Let me squash your point #9. It is false the 2520 years are solar years not lunar years.
The below is taken from one of our Watchtowers in 1950:

The moon was used for fixing the months, and then the spring growing season for determining the beginning of the year in relation to the moon, making necessary 7 times every 19 years the addition of an intercalary month or Ve-Adar month, a thirteenth month. So since the length of the Jewish year was not stabilized to 365 days plus a leap year of 366 days, prophecy fixed a system of measurement of its time periods at 360 days for a year or time, calculating 30 full days to a month instead of the actual 29 1/2 days to a lunation. Genesis 7:11, 24; 8:3, 4 shows Noah calculated 30 days roughly to a month. Further confirmation of this unit as a prophetic norm of time is given us at Revelation 11:2, 3, where 42 months are run parallel with 1,260 days, making a year of 12 months equal 360 days. Note also that when Revelation 12:6, 14 parallels 3 1/2 years or times with 1,260 days it takes each time or symbolic year as equal to 360 days, and not 365 1/4 days by saying that the 3 1/2 times equal 1,278 and a fraction days. In 3 1/2 years or times there would be at least one and possibly two intercalary months, as explained by The Watchtower, March 15, 1948, pages 91, 92; yet Revelation ignored such intercalary months in giving the days of the 3 1/2 times. So we figure according to God’s Biblical way and are on firm foundation in saying that the symbolic seven times equal 2,520 years. And these 2,520 years should be counted as solar years, because the Jewish lunar years of 360 days, over long periods of time, kept pace with the solar years by means of the intercalary months added at set intervals, thereby always maintaining the necessary harmony between the year’s beginning and the seasons.

I’ll answer the rest of your points tonight and tomorrow morning.

632

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
mse2us, you do know that the Mongols waged war over more territory than WWI and WWII put together. It covered Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. The Mongols started the first World War. The black plague started at the same time, and there were famines all over the place because the Mongols burned everything in their path. This could be used the same way you are using 1914.

[/quote]
Nintey percent of the earth’s nations weren’t involved in that war and the number of casualties is not even close to WWI.

One of the main reasons the black plague was so bad during that time was due to the fact that people of that time did not understand basic hygiene and cleanliness. Nor did they understand that the black rat was the cause of the disease. Nor did they properly dispose of the dead bodies. Once they got a better understanding of cleanliness the bubonic plague outbreaks that occurred in the following centuries was not nearly as bad. Also it took four years for the death toll to climb to what it did. When the Spanish flu hit people had a much better handle on hygiene and they properly disposed of dead bodies. The Spanish flu had about the same death toll as the black plague in only a year and a half and people who died from it was on every continent except Antarctica. The black plague only affected Europe and parts of Asia.

Nope it’s not the same.

633

[quote]mse2us wrote:
Let me squash your point #9. It is false the 2520 years are solar years not lunar years.
The below is taken from one of our Watchtowers in 1950:

The moon was used for fixing the months, and then the spring growing season for determining the beginning of the year in relation to the moon, making necessary 7 times every 19 years the addition of an intercalary month or Ve-Adar month, a thirteenth month. So since the length of the Jewish year was not stabilized to 365 days plus a leap year of 366 days, prophecy fixed a system of measurement of its time periods at 360 days for a year or time, calculating 30 full days to a month instead of the actual 29 1/2 days to a lunation. Genesis 7:11, 24; 8:3, 4 shows Noah calculated 30 days roughly to a month. Further confirmation of this unit as a prophetic norm of time is given us at Revelation 11:2, 3, where 42 months are run parallel with 1,260 days, making a year of 12 months equal 360 days. Note also that when Revelation 12:6, 14 parallels 3 1/2 years or times with 1,260 days it takes each time or symbolic year as equal to 360 days, and not 365 1/4 days by saying that the 3 1/2 times equal 1,278 and a fraction days. In 3 1/2 years or times there would be at least one and possibly two intercalary months, as explained by The Watchtower, March 15, 1948, pages 91, 92; yet Revelation ignored such intercalary months in giving the days of the 3 1/2 times. So we figure according to God’s Biblical way and are on firm foundation in saying that the symbolic seven times equal 2,520 years. And these 2,520 years should be counted as solar years, because the Jewish lunar years of 360 days, over long periods of time, kept pace with the solar years by means of the intercalary months added at set intervals, thereby always maintaining the necessary harmony between the year’s beginning and the seasons.

I’ll answer the rest of your points tonight and tomorrow morning.[/quote]

Sorry, but you did not squash it. Your Watchtower, frankly, is full of BS on this point. Here is why . . .

The Gregorian calender by which the year 1914 is established as the year 1914 is based on a 365 1/4 day year. 607 BC is also date based in the same 365.25 day Gregorian Calendar. . . . Period End of Story - no if and or buts.

If you want to measure the distance between two points on a fixed scale, you have to use the fixed scale. the distance between 607 BC and 1914 AD is based on a fixed annual scale of 365.25 days. It is what establishes the fixed points by which those dates apply to specific events - otherwise, dates would be meaningless.

Since, 1914 AD is 1914 AD and 607 BC is 607 BC ONLY based on the Gregorian calendar and since that calendar is based SOLELY on a 365.25 day year, to correctly apply the 2,520 lunar years which are the basis of your prophecy - you must convert the lunar year or “prophetic” year to the same scale as the one used to measure the scale of time used in the Gregorian calendar. The Lunar time scale must be converted to the Solar time scale to have any relevance in moving from one fixed point on the solar measurement scale to another.

What you are trying to do is akin to measuring the distance from your front door to the kitchen in Feet - let’s say 15 feet, and then going to buy a rug to cover that distance and buying a 15 meter rug . . . you have the right number, but the wrong scale.

So, you must convert lunar years into total number of days and from days to solar years and then you can accurately move from one date on the solar measurement scale to another.

Wait a second, you do have another option, you have to convert lunar years into Jewish calendar years and then from Jewish calendar years into Gregorian calendar years.

So you either choose to convert lunar years to lunar days to solar years (the calculation I already gave you) or you must convert lunar years to lunar days to Jewish years and then convert the final date into the Gregorian calendar.

This involves some complex math - as your watchtower articles rightly identifies the Jewish calendar is based on a lunisolar year that utilizes a Metonic cycle of roughly 235 months within a 19 year period with alternating leap years . . .yada yada yada, won’t bore you with the details. The math works out to the Jewish calendar year 5368 . . . . which converts to . . . . wait for it . . . 1878 . . .sorry, no matter how you slice it, when you apply 2,520 lunar years to either the Jewish or Gregorian calendars starting from 607 BC (3154) you will still end up in 1878 AD (5368) . . .

The only way that you end up in 1914 is by directly adding lunar years to the Gregorian’s solar scale . . . a false addition . . .

634

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
mse2us, you do know that the Mongols waged war over more territory than WWI and WWII put together. It covered Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. The Mongols started the first World War. The black plague started at the same time, and there were famines all over the place because the Mongols burned everything in their path. This could be used the same way you are using 1914.

[/quote]
Nintey percent of the earth’s nations weren’t involved in that war and the number of casualties is not even close to WWI.

One of the main reasons the black plague was so bad during that time was due to the fact that people of that time did not understand basic hygiene and cleanliness. Nor did they understand that the black rat was the cause of the disease. Nor did they properly dispose of the dead bodies. Once they got a better understanding of cleanliness the bubonic plague outbreaks that occurred in the following centuries was not nearly as bad. Also it took four years for the death toll to climb to what it did. When the Spanish flu hit people had a much better handle on hygiene and they properly disposed of dead bodies. The Spanish flu had about the same death toll as the black plague in only a year and a half and people who died from it was on every continent except Antarctica. The black plague only affected Europe and parts of Asia.

Nope it’s not the same.[/quote]

So you disregard what the Bible Says Literally? In Revelation is says that 1/3 of the world will die. The only time in history where that actually happened was during the Black Plague. 1/3 of the entire World’s Population Died. As of right now over 2 billion people will have to die. We have not even come close to that number.

635

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Attach your own value to the following.[/quote]

The Earth is 4.5 billion years old, a 30 year sample is meaningless in the larger scheme of things. I has value to geologists studying earthquake patterns, but that’s about it.

636

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
Let me squash your point #9. It is false the 2520 years are solar years not lunar years.
The below is taken from one of our Watchtowers in 1950:

The moon was used for fixing the months, and then the spring growing season for determining the beginning of the year in relation to the moon, making necessary 7 times every 19 years the addition of an intercalary month or Ve-Adar month, a thirteenth month. So since the length of the Jewish year was not stabilized to 365 days plus a leap year of 366 days, prophecy fixed a system of measurement of its time periods at 360 days for a year or time, calculating 30 full days to a month instead of the actual 29 1/2 days to a lunation. Genesis 7:11, 24; 8:3, 4 shows Noah calculated 30 days roughly to a month. Further confirmation of this unit as a prophetic norm of time is given us at Revelation 11:2, 3, where 42 months are run parallel with 1,260 days, making a year of 12 months equal 360 days. Note also that when Revelation 12:6, 14 parallels 3 1/2 years or times with 1,260 days it takes each time or symbolic year as equal to 360 days, and not 365 1/4 days by saying that the 3 1/2 times equal 1,278 and a fraction days. In 3 1/2 years or times there would be at least one and possibly two intercalary months, as explained by The Watchtower, March 15, 1948, pages 91, 92; yet Revelation ignored such intercalary months in giving the days of the 3 1/2 times. So we figure according to God’s Biblical way and are on firm foundation in saying that the symbolic seven times equal 2,520 years. And these 2,520 years should be counted as solar years, because the Jewish lunar years of 360 days, over long periods of time, kept pace with the solar years by means of the intercalary months added at set intervals, thereby always maintaining the necessary harmony between the year’s beginning and the seasons.

I’ll answer the rest of your points tonight and tomorrow morning.[/quote]

Sorry, but you did not squash it. Your Watchtower, frankly, is full of BS on this point. Here is why . . .

The Gregorian calender by which the year 1914 is established as the year 1914 is based on a 365 1/4 day year. 607 BC is also date based in the same 365.25 day Gregorian Calendar. . . . Period End of Story - no if and or buts.

If you want to measure the distance between two points on a fixed scale, you have to use the fixed scale. the distance between 607 BC and 1914 AD is based on a fixed annual scale of 365.25 days. It is what establishes the fixed points by which those dates apply to specific events - otherwise, dates would be meaningless.

Since, 1914 AD is 1914 AD and 607 BC is 607 BC ONLY based on the Gregorian calendar and since that calendar is based SOLELY on a 365.25 day year, to correctly apply the 2,520 lunar years which are the basis of your prophecy - you must convert the lunar year or “prophetic” year to the same scale as the one used to measure the scale of time used in the Gregorian calendar. The Lunar time scale must be converted to the Solar time scale to have any relevance in moving from one fixed point on the solar measurement scale to another.

What you are trying to do is akin to measuring the distance from your front door to the kitchen in Feet - let’s say 15 feet, and then going to buy a rug to cover that distance and buying a 15 meter rug . . . you have the right number, but the wrong scale.

So, you must convert lunar years into total number of days and from days to solar years and then you can accurately move from one date on the solar measurement scale to another.

Wait a second, you do have another option, you have to convert lunar years into Jewish calendar years and then from Jewish calendar years into Gregorian calendar years.

So you either choose to convert lunar years to lunar days to solar years (the calculation I already gave you) or you must convert lunar years to lunar days to Jewish years and then convert the final date into the Gregorian calendar.

This involves some complex math - as your watchtower articles rightly identifies the Jewish calendar is based on a lunisolar year that utilizes a Metonic cycle of roughly 235 months within a 19 year period with alternating leap years . . .yada yada yada, won’t bore you with the details. The math works out to the Jewish calendar year 5368 . . . . which converts to . . . . wait for it . . . 1878 . . .sorry, no matter how you slice it, when you apply 2,520 lunar years to either the Jewish or Gregorian calendars starting from 607 BC (3154) you will still end up in 1878 AD (5368) . . .

The only way that you end up in 1914 is by directly adding lunar years to the Gregorian’s solar scale . . . a false addition . . .[/quote]
I’m not going to argue with you about this point because like I’ve been saying there’s more than just the date. If the ONLY thing we had to go on was a calculation that took us to a date then what you said above would matter. If we only had the year 1914 and nothing else then that would not be enough evidence for me. I accept the year 1914 as the date Jesus became king in heaven and the start of the last days of this system of things because of the events that came with the date and those events that came with the date confirms the date. When Jesus prophesied about the world’s end he didn’t give a date. He gave in my opinion what’s more important than a date. He gave specific signs for his disciples to look for that would identify his presence in heaven as king of God’s kingdom and when the conclusion of the system of things started. If 1914 came and went and a big event like WWI and then the Spanish flu DID NOT happen then I would not believe 1914 was the year that the last days started. Even if those two events happened from 1914-1919 but the REST of the 20th century was peaceful and the signs Jesus said to look for were not happening on a world wide scale visible for all to see then again I wouldn’t believe that 1914 was year. But the signs are undeniable. World historians agree that the world changed with the outbreak of WWI and it has not been the same since. The world has only gotten worse. JW’s know exactly why this is the case. According to Revelation 12:7-12 when Satan was kicked out of heaven, Jesus became king and due to Satan’s anger knowing he has a short period of time, he caused Woe for the people of the earth. That Woe he caused came in the form of the signs Jesus told his disciples to look for that would mark his presence in heaven as king and the last days. The Woe also came in the form of the three horsemen, war, famine and plague that ride with the newly crowned Jesus at Revelation 6.

So we can quibble about what year Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians and how a lunar year is applied to the Gregorian calender all day long. Again, I too can post information that will counter the above argument, in fact there are several articles in past Watchtowers that talk about that very subject. But all we’ll be doing is going back and forth which won’t prove a thing. What does prove a thing, is the events that are the signs Jesus said to look for that became evident on a world wide scale starting in 1914 and have escalated and became more visible for the whole world to see as technology advanced in the 20th century. You are too caught up on the date and how we came to that date. You’re basing your doubt on secular history as to when Jerusalem was destroyed which has a high probability of being wrong and on mathematics as to how time was measured thousands of years ago which again has a high probability of being wrong. JW’s are more focused on the events that were to serve as signs to prove the 1914 date. Those clear, visible signs trump any of your explanations you mentioned to disprove the 1914 date which have a high chance of being incorrect. Those events aren’t made up or sensationalized, they’re real and every time you turn on the news you can see these event happening. Knowing when the appointed times of the Gentile nations ended, although we had it wrong at first, caused us to focus intently on the year 1914. Once we realized what actually happened in 1914 we kept on the watch and were able to see the signs Jesus said to look to become more apparent the deeper they got into the 20th century. On the other hand, most people of the world did not know to look to 1914 so when one of the major signs Jesus said to look to occurred in 1914 most people of the world acknowledged that it was a major event that was a turning point in human history, but they had no clue that this was the result of Satan being kicked out of heaven and causing problems for the people of the earth.

There’s one more sign that I haven’t mentioned that is occurring on a world wide scale for the whole world to see. Jesus said at Matthew 24:14 that “this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations and then the end will come.” I can assure you Irish that we are the ONLY group preaching the same kingdom message in over 230 lands world wide and in over 200 languages. We preach over 1 billion hours a year about the good news of God’s kingdom trying to show people from the Bible what God’ kingdom will do for mankind and that it’s the only hope to bring about permanent changes on earth. It’s just a shame that most won’t listen.

637

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
mse2us, you do know that the Mongols waged war over more territory than WWI and WWII put together. It covered Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. The Mongols started the first World War. The black plague started at the same time, and there were famines all over the place because the Mongols burned everything in their path. This could be used the same way you are using 1914.

[/quote]
Nintey percent of the earth’s nations weren’t involved in that war and the number of casualties is not even close to WWI.

One of the main reasons the black plague was so bad during that time was due to the fact that people of that time did not understand basic hygiene and cleanliness. Nor did they understand that the black rat was the cause of the disease. Nor did they properly dispose of the dead bodies. Once they got a better understanding of cleanliness the bubonic plague outbreaks that occurred in the following centuries was not nearly as bad. Also it took four years for the death toll to climb to what it did. When the Spanish flu hit people had a much better handle on hygiene and they properly disposed of dead bodies. The Spanish flu had about the same death toll as the black plague in only a year and a half and people who died from it was on every continent except Antarctica. The black plague only affected Europe and parts of Asia.

Nope it’s not the same.[/quote]

So you disregard what the Bible Says Literally? In Revelation is says that 1/3 of the world will die. The only time in history where that actually happened was during the Black Plague. 1/3 of the entire World’s Population Died. As of right now over 2 billion people will have to die. We have not even come close to that number.[/quote]
Where in Revelation does it say that 1/3 of the world will die? I think your referring to Revelation 12:3,4 that talks about a fiery colored dragon dragging a third of the stars with him and hurling them down to earth. Is this the verse you’re talking about?

638

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
mse2us, you do know that the Mongols waged war over more territory than WWI and WWII put together. It covered Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. The Mongols started the first World War. The black plague started at the same time, and there were famines all over the place because the Mongols burned everything in their path. This could be used the same way you are using 1914.

[/quote]
Nintey percent of the earth’s nations weren’t involved in that war and the number of casualties is not even close to WWI.

One of the main reasons the black plague was so bad during that time was due to the fact that people of that time did not understand basic hygiene and cleanliness. Nor did they understand that the black rat was the cause of the disease. Nor did they properly dispose of the dead bodies. Once they got a better understanding of cleanliness the bubonic plague outbreaks that occurred in the following centuries was not nearly as bad. Also it took four years for the death toll to climb to what it did. When the Spanish flu hit people had a much better handle on hygiene and they properly disposed of dead bodies. The Spanish flu had about the same death toll as the black plague in only a year and a half and people who died from it was on every continent except Antarctica. The black plague only affected Europe and parts of Asia.

Nope it’s not the same.[/quote]

So you disregard what the Bible Says Literally? In Revelation is says that 1/3 of the world will die. The only time in history where that actually happened was during the Black Plague. 1/3 of the entire World’s Population Died. As of right now over 2 billion people will have to die. We have not even come close to that number.[/quote]
Where in Revelation does it say that 1/3 of the world will die? I think your referring to Revelation 12:3,4 that talks about a fiery colored dragon dragging a third of the stars with him and hurling them down to earth. Is this the verse you’re talking about?[/quote]

Revelation 8 and 9 to give context, but in particular Revelation 9:15 and it says it again in verse 18.

639

what a cope out . . . sorry, but that is just the honest truth.

Look, you have a doctrine/prophecy that stated something would happen in 1914. That is the foundational belief of the JW’s - that something was going to happen in 1914 and you have that date based on a specific set of calculations - specifically a calculation based on a lunar month which is 30 lunar days. Then once that date passed - you were given “new light” as to what specifically occurred in 1914. Now you have changed what occurred in 1914 since the intial prophecy, but not the date itself. But if the date is as wrong as the first versions of the prophecied event are now held to be wrong - where is truth in any of this?

So how did 1914 become the date of the prophecy and the subsequent hindsight doctrine?

easy, you took 12 lunar months of 30 lunar days each and multiplied it by 7 based on a specific interpretation of a passage = this gave you 2,520 lunar days - this is the base calculation used by the Watchtower since the very beginning without alteration or correction. You started with a lunar year - multiplied the 360 lunar days of the lunar year by 7 and got 2,520 lunar days - then you converted lunar days into lunar years (one day is as a year) and now you 2,520 lunar years or 907,200 lunar days. <— this equation cannot be ignored!!! it is the foundation of the prophecy

The whole prophecy is based on a LUNAR year. Not a 365.25 day solar year - but a 360 day lunar year. so right there you have the establishment of two different time scales. I have no problem with you calling the lunar scale the prophetic scale, but to mark specific dates based on a lunar year time scale, you have to create a lunar calendar that marks specific events on specific dates based on that lunar/prophetic time scale.

The Jewish calendar is NOT a lunar calendar, but a corrected lunisolar one via the Metronic cycle and the addition of leap years to keep the Jewish calendar in time with the solar year.

The Gregorian calendar is a straight solar calendar.

Now, if you want to add your 2,520 lunar or prophetic years to a lunar or prophetic calendar - great - no isssue - you’ll just have to create one . . .

if not, and you want to apply those 2,520 lunar/porphetic years to either of the calendars in question, you must convert to the scale used by those calendars. This is basic math - math designed by the Creator Himself, the code of the universe He made.

3012 = 360, 3607 = 2,520, 2520/30 = 84, 84/7 = 12, 1230 = 360, 3607 = 2,520, 2,520*360 = 907,200, 907,200/12 = 75,600, 75,600/30 = 2,520, 2,520/7 = 360, 360/12 = 30 - you cannot escape the math!

There is no question that you started with a 30 day lunar month, right? you then multiplied that 30 by 12 to get a lunar year of 360 days - then you multiplied those 360 lunar days by 7 and got 2,520 lunar days and then converted lunar days into lunar years. ok well 2,520 lunar years is only 907,200 lunar days no matter how you slice it . . . if an event happen on day 456,201, you have to keep the same scale to know specifically when that even occurred.

If a lunar month = 30 lunar days and a lunar year has 12 lunar months, then a lunar year has 360 lunar days

if I multiple that 360 lunar days by 7, then I get a result of 2,520 lunar days.

if one lunar day = 1 lunar year, then 2,520 lunar days = 2,520 lunar years

if 1 lunar year = 360 lunar days, then 2,520 lunar years = 907,200 lunar days

there is no way for you to add 907,200 days to 607 BC and end up in 1914.

Conclusion - 1914 is a false date based on the Watchtower’s own calculation . . .

let me illustrate further, you believe true date + false interpretation ='s false doctrine - this is the foundation for your new light. So now you have true date + true interpretation ='s true doctrine

Now, if true date + false interpretation ='s false doctrine, then false date + true interpretation still ='s false doctrine.

If there is any error in the doctrine, it corrupts the whole doctrine. < - - - - biblical principle.

640

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
what a cope out . . . sorry, but that is just the honest truth.

Look, you have a doctrine/prophecy that stated something would happen in 1914. That is the foundational belief of the JW’s - that something was going to happen in 1914 and you have that date based on a specific set of calculations - specifically a calculation based on a lunar month which is 30 lunar days. Then once that date passed - you were given “new light” as to what specifically occurred in 1914. Now you have changed what occurred in 1914 since the intial prophecy, but not the date itself. But if the date is as wrong as the first versions of the prophecied event are now held to be wrong - where is truth in any of this?

So how did 1914 become the date of the prophecy and the subsequent hindsight doctrine?

easy, you took 12 lunar months of 30 lunar days each and multiplied it by 7 based on a specific interpretation of a passage = this gave you 2,520 lunar days - this is the base calculation used by the Watchtower since the very beginning without alteration or correction. You started with a lunar year - multiplied the 360 lunar days of the lunar year by 7 and got 2,520 lunar days - then you converted lunar days into lunar years (one day is as a year) and now you 2,520 lunar years or 907,200 lunar days. <— this equation cannot be ignored!!! it is the foundation of the prophecy

The whole prophecy is based on a LUNAR year. Not a 365.25 day solar year - but a 360 day lunar year. so right there you have the establishment of two different time scales. I have no problem with you calling the lunar scale the prophetic scale, but to mark specific dates based on a lunar year time scale, you have to create a lunar calendar that marks specific events on specific dates based on that lunar/prophetic time scale.

The Jewish calendar is NOT a lunar calendar, but a corrected lunisolar one via the Metronic cycle and the addition of leap years to keep the Jewish calendar in time with the solar year.

The Gregorian calendar is a straight solar calendar.

Now, if you want to add your 2,520 lunar or prophetic years to a lunar or prophetic calendar - great - no isssue - you’ll just have to create one . . .

if not, and you want to apply those 2,520 lunar/porphetic years to either of the calendars in question, you must convert to the scale used by those calendars. This is basic math - math designed by the Creator Himself, the code of the universe He made.

3012 = 360, 3607 = 2,520, 2520/30 = 84, 84/7 = 12, 1230 = 360, 3607 = 2,520, 2,520*360 = 907,200, 907,200/12 = 75,600, 75,600/30 = 2,520, 2,520/7 = 360, 360/12 = 30 - you cannot escape the math!

There is no question that you started with a 30 day lunar month, right? you then multiplied that 30 by 12 to get a lunar year of 360 days - then you multiplied those 360 lunar days by 7 and got 2,520 lunar days and then converted lunar days into lunar years. ok well 2,520 lunar years is only 907,200 lunar days no matter how you slice it . . . if an event happen on day 456,201, you have to keep the same scale to know specifically when that even occurred.

If a lunar month = 30 lunar days and a lunar year has 12 lunar months, then a lunar year has 360 lunar days

if I multiple that 360 lunar days by 7, then I get a result of 2,520 lunar days.

if one lunar day = 1 lunar year, then 2,520 lunar days = 2,520 lunar years

if 1 lunar year = 360 lunar days, then 2,520 lunar years = 907,200 lunar days

there is no way for you to add 907,200 days to 607 BC and end up in 1914.

Conclusion - 1914 is a false date based on the Watchtower’s own calculation . . .

let me illustrate further, you believe true date + false interpretation ='s false doctrine - this is the foundation for your new light. So now you have true date + true interpretation ='s true doctrine

Now, if true date + false interpretation ='s false doctrine, then false date + true interpretation still ='s false doctrine.

If there is any error in the doctrine, it corrupts the whole doctrine. < - - - - biblical principle.[/quote]
Again, you are too hung up on the way time was calculated thousands of years ago verses today. The 2,520 years should be counted as solar years, because the Jewish lunar years of 360 days, over long periods of time, kept pace with the solar years by means of the intercalary months added at set intervals, thereby always maintaining the necessary harmony between the year’s beginning and the seasons. These prophetic years, in their fulfillment, would not be merely 360 days each, but full calendar years as we count them. Again, that’s because the variation of the Jewish calendar was to adjust the lunar year to harmonize with the solar year. It could be termed a “soli-lunar” or “bound lunar” year. Days, or months, were inserted at intervals to make up the difference of approximately eleven days between the lunar and the solar year. By this means the seasons always fell in their proper place in the calendar. So their calendar would be almost exactly in line with the currently used Gregorian calendar.

Again Irish, it’s the signs that Jesus told his disciples to look for which started in 1914 and became more visible in the 20th century that prove the 1914 date as correct. Some of the signs at Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are war, food shortages, earthquakes, and disease weren’t visible on a world wide scale prior to the 20th century. If you say they were you’re lying. For example, the 6.3 earthquake that hit Japan today that I saw on the news would not have been reported prior to the 20th century in a way that millions around the world could see. Prior to the 20th century even wars like the two in Iraq and Afghanistan would not have been as visible and heavily reported on so that millions could see.

The human traits Paul said would be dominant during the last days at 2 Timothy 3:1-5 also weren’t clearly visible for the whole world to see prior to the 20th century. Just about all the traits mentioned in that passage can be seen in the recent ethnic cleansing in Kyrgyzstan that I saw reported on the news today. Again, prior to the 20th century this would not have been visible for the whole world to see.

There’s no error in understanding of when the trampling on Jerusalem by the Gentile nation began, which was 607 B.C.E., how long the seven times lasted which was 2520 years and when the trampling on Jerusalem by the Gentile nations ended which was 1914.