Trinity - Bible Teaching or Doctrine of Man

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
601

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
thank honest - but all you’re doing is proving the very point I want to make and that is that wars, plagues, famines and earthquakes are all a constant of human experience on earth - they have occurred since the fall and will continue to occur - so the signs of Christ’s return are applicable in all times and in all place - therefore to use the appearance of signs as proof of something can be made at any time. To say that something changed in 1914 based on these types of events is ludicrous on its face, because it is just the continuation of the same old same old . . . Christ’s VISIBLE return is an imminent event - it can happen at any time and the only signs of his return will be that continuation of events that already occur.

[/quote]

Sure, if you want to look at it that way. No one is forcing you to admit anything. The best anyone can do is present data.

What you are saying is exactly what the Bible said people would say.

2 Peter 3:4
They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Of the entire earth only 8 made it through the flood. 8 people. No one outside of Noah’s immediate family listened to his warnings. Jesus said that these days would be like Noah’s. None of the resistance here surprises me.[/quote]

OHHH NO NO NO NO! Au Contrare! There is a world of difference between doubting his return and using the continuation of world events to support that doubt and EXPECTING his return knowing that it could be at any moment and acknowledging that there will be no NEW signs of his coming.

602

Like a thief in the night maybe?

603

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Like a thief in the night maybe?[/quote]

This thread’s taken an interesting turn.

To explain this case; it’s like the “mystery shoppers”, the shop is warned that someone will be coming soon, but no-one knows the day or hour. So the workers are on “high alert” until that time.

Another interesting point is that with the more condensed population like in the past century or so, more people die during natural disasters like earthquakes. So even if there was no literal increase in earthquakes (which I believe there has been), there would be more casualties than ever before and “reports of them” (due to modern technology).

604

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
thank honest - but all you’re doing is proving the very point I want to make and that is that wars, plagues, famines and earthquakes are all a constant of human experience on earth - they have occurred since the fall and will continue to occur - so the signs of Christ’s return are applicable in all times and in all place - therefore to use the appearance of signs as proof of something can be made at any time. To say that something changed in 1914 based on these types of events is ludicrous on its face, because it is just the continuation of the same old same old . . . Christ’s VISIBLE return is an imminent event - it can happen at any time and the only signs of his return will be that continuation of events that already occur.

[/quote]

Sure, if you want to look at it that way. No one is forcing you to admit anything. The best anyone can do is present data.

What you are saying is exactly what the Bible said people would say.

2 Peter 3:4
They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Of the entire earth only 8 made it through the flood. 8 people. No one outside of Noah’s immediate family listened to his warnings. Jesus said that these days would be like Noah’s. None of the resistance here surprises me.[/quote]

AND what you are saying is exactly what Jesus said people would say…“The end is near!” He said not to listen to them.
Mt 24:24-28[/quote]

Let me quote Matthew 24:24-28 and please tell me how you paraphrased it the way you did.

24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electâ??if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

605

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
thank honest - but all you’re doing is proving the very point I want to make and that is that wars, plagues, famines and earthquakes are all a constant of human experience on earth - they have occurred since the fall and will continue to occur - so the signs of Christ’s return are applicable in all times and in all place - therefore to use the appearance of signs as proof of something can be made at any time. To say that something changed in 1914 based on these types of events is ludicrous on its face, because it is just the continuation of the same old same old . . . Christ’s VISIBLE return is an imminent event - it can happen at any time and the only signs of his return will be that continuation of events that already occur.

[/quote]

Sure, if you want to look at it that way. No one is forcing you to admit anything. The best anyone can do is present data.

What you are saying is exactly what the Bible said people would say.

2 Peter 3:4
They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Of the entire earth only 8 made it through the flood. 8 people. No one outside of Noah’s immediate family listened to his warnings. Jesus said that these days would be like Noah’s. None of the resistance here surprises me.[/quote]

OHHH NO NO NO NO! Au Contrare! There is a world of difference between doubting his return and using the continuation of world events to support that doubt and EXPECTING his return knowing that it could be at any moment and acknowledging that there will be no NEW signs of his coming.
[/quote]

Hmm. OK, but this isn’t just a continuation of world events. It is an increased occurence of Wars, Famines, ETC.

If you want to BELIEVE it is just a continuation of world events, I already said that is your choice. That is what the people of Noah’s day did.

The 20th Century is considered the most deadly century in human history. Coincidence or Significance? I personally believe significance based on what I have learned from the Bible.

606

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
thank honest - but all you’re doing is proving the very point I want to make and that is that wars, plagues, famines and earthquakes are all a constant of human experience on earth - they have occurred since the fall and will continue to occur - so the signs of Christ’s return are applicable in all times and in all place - therefore to use the appearance of signs as proof of something can be made at any time. To say that something changed in 1914 based on these types of events is ludicrous on its face, because it is just the continuation of the same old same old . . . Christ’s VISIBLE return is an imminent event - it can happen at any time and the only signs of his return will be that continuation of events that already occur.

[/quote]

Sure, if you want to look at it that way. No one is forcing you to admit anything. The best anyone can do is present data.

What you are saying is exactly what the Bible said people would say.

2 Peter 3:4
They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Of the entire earth only 8 made it through the flood. 8 people. No one outside of Noah’s immediate family listened to his warnings. Jesus said that these days would be like Noah’s. None of the resistance here surprises me.[/quote]

OHHH NO NO NO NO! Au Contrare! There is a world of difference between doubting his return and using the continuation of world events to support that doubt and EXPECTING his return knowing that it could be at any moment and acknowledging that there will be no NEW signs of his coming.
[/quote]

Hmm. OK, but this isn’t just a continuation of world events. It is an increased occurence of Wars, Famines, ETC.

If you want to BELIEVE it is just a continuation of world events, I already said that is your choice. That is what the people of Noah’s day did.

The 20th Century is considered the most deadly century in human history. Coincidence or Significance? I personally believe significance based on what I have learned from the Bible.[/quote]

No, there is an increased recording of these events, but the increse in population size during the 20th century belies an increase in death rates - Life expectancy is higher, population is higher, birth rates are higher . . . we are more aware of the adverse events in the last century becasue of our proximity to them and our global communications.

Yes, I do believe it is the continuation of the same events humnaity has faced since the garden and Jesus indiciated, thus no man knows the day nor the hour of His return.

based in raw numbers, yes, the 20th century was one of the deadliest, but not the deadliest and then when seen in percentage of living population - nope, sorry. The case for 1914 is still just as weak - disputed biblicla intepretation, no historical/archeological evidence and very weak “signs” rationale . . . .

607

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
thank honest - but all you’re doing is proving the very point I want to make and that is that wars, plagues, famines and earthquakes are all a constant of human experience on earth - they have occurred since the fall and will continue to occur - so the signs of Christ’s return are applicable in all times and in all place - therefore to use the appearance of signs as proof of something can be made at any time. To say that something changed in 1914 based on these types of events is ludicrous on its face, because it is just the continuation of the same old same old . . . Christ’s VISIBLE return is an imminent event - it can happen at any time and the only signs of his return will be that continuation of events that already occur.

[/quote]

Sure, if you want to look at it that way. No one is forcing you to admit anything. The best anyone can do is present data.

What you are saying is exactly what the Bible said people would say.

2 Peter 3:4
They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Of the entire earth only 8 made it through the flood. 8 people. No one outside of Noah’s immediate family listened to his warnings. Jesus said that these days would be like Noah’s. None of the resistance here surprises me.[/quote]

OHHH NO NO NO NO! Au Contrare! There is a world of difference between doubting his return and using the continuation of world events to support that doubt and EXPECTING his return knowing that it could be at any moment and acknowledging that there will be no NEW signs of his coming.
[/quote]

Hmm. OK, but this isn’t just a continuation of world events. It is an increased occurence of Wars, Famines, ETC.

If you want to BELIEVE it is just a continuation of world events, I already said that is your choice. That is what the people of Noah’s day did.

The 20th Century is considered the most deadly century in human history. Coincidence or Significance? I personally believe significance based on what I have learned from the Bible.[/quote]

No, there is an increased recording of these events, but the increse in population size during the 20th century belies an increase in death rates - Life expectancy is higher, population is higher, birth rates are higher . . . we are more aware of the adverse events in the last century becasue of our proximity to them and our global communications.

Yes, I do believe it is the continuation of the same events humnaity has faced since the garden and Jesus indiciated, thus no man knows the day nor the hour of His return.

based in raw numbers, yes, the 20th century was one of the deadliest, but not the deadliest and then when seen in percentage of living population - nope, sorry. The case for 1914 is still just as weak - disputed biblicla intepretation, no historical/archeological evidence and very weak “signs” rationale . . . .[/quote]

What was the deadliest Century then?

608

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
What was the deadliest Century then?[/quote]

You’re missing the point . . .

You have 3 areas of contention regarding your 1914 view - biblical interpretation, “signs” and historical/archeological data.

IF (and that’s a big if) there had been no famines, plagues, wars and earthquakes prior to 1914 and then in 1914 they started to occur - you’d have at least a case for “signs” for your claim concerning 1914. The fact is that these things WERE occurring prior to 1914 and were already causing the deaths of huge percentages of the living human population. The fact that they occurred after 1914 is no more significant than the fact that these events occurred after 1814 or 1714 or 1614 or 414 or 14. . . . the point is that they have happened, do happen and will continue to happen - there is no “signs” significant to 1914 - there have always been wars, rumors of war, famines, pestilence and earthquakes - that’s the point - Christ was telling us that there would be no observable signs prior to his return, because only God knew when that day would be and it would come as suddenly as lightening - no warning, no sign, no schedule - it will happen “like a thief in the night” - so the “signs” leg of the tripod is broken.

Second, you have no historical or archeological support for your 607 date supporting your 1914 calculation, so the second historical leg of your tripod is broken.

Third - Christ already had all authority in heaven and on earth after his resurrection (see my earlier post) and your date calcualtion is based off corrupting the biblical record and mixing luner/solar years - therefore the biblical interpretation leg of your tripod is also broken . . .

This, the entire claim for something significant occurring in 1914 is as weak as when we started the discussion . . .

609

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
What was the deadliest Century then?[/quote]

You’re missing the point . . .

You have 3 areas of contention regarding your 1914 view - biblical interpretation, “signs” and historical/archeological data.

IF (and that’s a big if) there had been no famines, plagues, wars and earthquakes prior to 1914 and then in 1914 they started to occur - you’d have at least a case for “signs” for your claim concerning 1914. The fact is that these things WERE occurring prior to 1914 and were already causing the deaths of huge percentages of the living human population. The fact that they occurred after 1914 is no more significant than the fact that these events occurred after 1814 or 1714 or 1614 or 414 or 14. . . . the point is that they have happened, do happen and will continue to happen - there is no “signs” significant to 1914 - there have always been wars, rumors of war, famines, pestilence and earthquakes - that’s the point - Christ was telling us that there would be no observable signs prior to his return, because only God knew when that day would be and it would come as suddenly as lightening - no warning, no sign, no schedule - it will happen “like a thief in the night” - so the “signs” leg of the tripod is broken.

Second, you have no historical or archeological support for your 607 date supporting your 1914 calculation, so the second historical leg of your tripod is broken.

Third - Christ already had all authority in heaven and on earth after his resurrection (see my earlier post) and your date calcualtion is based off corrupting the biblical record and mixing luner/solar years - therefore the biblical interpretation leg of your tripod is also broken . . .

This, the entire claim for something significant occurring in 1914 is as weak as when we started the discussion . . .[/quote]

OK, feel free to believe that. I don’t agree with you on the first, second, or third point. I believe that there has been increased in the events, as prophesied. I believe that 607 is proved through history. I believe that Jesus presence began in 1914.

610

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
thank honest - but all you’re doing is proving the very point I want to make and that is that wars, plagues, famines and earthquakes are all a constant of human experience on earth - they have occurred since the fall and will continue to occur - so the signs of Christ’s return are applicable in all times and in all place - therefore to use the appearance of signs as proof of something can be made at any time. To say that something changed in 1914 based on these types of events is ludicrous on its face, because it is just the continuation of the same old same old . . . Christ’s VISIBLE return is an imminent event - it can happen at any time and the only signs of his return will be that continuation of events that already occur.

[/quote]

Sure, if you want to look at it that way. No one is forcing you to admit anything. The best anyone can do is present data.

What you are saying is exactly what the Bible said people would say.

2 Peter 3:4
They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Of the entire earth only 8 made it through the flood. 8 people. No one outside of Noah’s immediate family listened to his warnings. Jesus said that these days would be like Noah’s. None of the resistance here surprises me.[/quote]

AND what you are saying is exactly what Jesus said people would say…“The end is near!” He said not to listen to them.
Mt 24:24-28[/quote]

Let me quote Matthew 24:24-28 and please tell me how you paraphrased it the way you did.

24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electâ??if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.[/quote]

I meant Mt 24:26-28…

611

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

OK, feel free to believe that. I don’t agree with you on the first, second, or third point. I believe that there has been increased in the events, as prophesied. I believe that 607 is proved through history. I believe that Jesus presence began in 1914.[/quote]

ok then . . .

Where is the passage that prophecied an “increase” in these types of events in 1914?

Where is the historical proof for 607?

Where’s the proof that Jesus was not already in possession of ALL authority prior to 1914?

and a follow-on question to number 3 - why are you applying passages speaking of His visible return to take away the church as proof for his ascension to kingship in heaven?

612

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

OK, feel free to believe that. I don’t agree with you on the first, second, or third point. I believe that there has been increased in the events, as prophesied. I believe that 607 is proved through history. I believe that Jesus presence began in 1914.[/quote]

ok then . . .

Where is the passage that prophecied an “increase” in these types of events in 1914?

Where is the historical proof for 607?

Where’s the proof that Jesus was not already in possession of ALL authority prior to 1914?

and a follow-on question to number 3 - why are you applying passages speaking of His visible return to take away the church as proof for his ascension to kingship in heaven?[/quote]

Your approach over the course of this thread has been:

Ask for information.

Deny the authority of it, or the application of it.

Say that we are not addressing your questions.

I personally don’t feel the desire to get into that. If you are satisfied with the way the world/life is, there is nothing anyone can do to change that.

If you feel that proving us “wrong” is what you want to do, again, feel free. Maybe it makes you feel better or maybe you think you are doing everyone a favor by making us out to look like lost sheep. I don’t know.

The information you need is available, feel free to search it out.

613

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
thank honest - but all you’re doing is proving the very point I want to make and that is that wars, plagues, famines and earthquakes are all a constant of human experience on earth - they have occurred since the fall and will continue to occur - so the signs of Christ’s return are applicable in all times and in all place - therefore to use the appearance of signs as proof of something can be made at any time. To say that something changed in 1914 based on these types of events is ludicrous on its face, because it is just the continuation of the same old same old . . . Christ’s VISIBLE return is an imminent event - it can happen at any time and the only signs of his return will be that continuation of events that already occur.

[/quote]

Sure, if you want to look at it that way. No one is forcing you to admit anything. The best anyone can do is present data.

What you are saying is exactly what the Bible said people would say.

2 Peter 3:4
They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Of the entire earth only 8 made it through the flood. 8 people. No one outside of Noah’s immediate family listened to his warnings. Jesus said that these days would be like Noah’s. None of the resistance here surprises me.[/quote]

AND what you are saying is exactly what Jesus said people would say…“The end is near!” He said not to listen to them.
Mt 24:24-28[/quote]

Let me quote Matthew 24:24-28 and please tell me how you paraphrased it the way you did.

24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect�¢??if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.[/quote]

I meant Mt 24:26-28…[/quote]

That is quoted as well, please feel free to tell me how you applied your paraphrasing.

614

OH no, this is a discussion thread - you know, where we discuss topics and try to understand each other. This is not about proving you wrong, it is about understanding how you arrived at a doctrine you claim as as valid.

We have the same starting point - scripture, but you have arrived at a completely different location. My questions are intended to reach an rationale understanding of how you could end up where you are when my understanding leads me to a different place.

Therefore I ask questions (like my 5 points) asking you to directly address them - you guys have responded basically that my points are correct, but my interpretation is wrong without giving any basis or proof for the acceptance of another interpretation. Thus I have to keep raising the points again and again.

If you do not want to give an answer, that’s fine. But I have legitimate questions with specific rationales in mind and only ask to understand why you discount or ignore evidence i find conclusive or compelling and try to get from you what you find compelling. Whne you provide that compelling-to-you evidence, I am going to challenge it, because I want to measure the veracity of it.

That’s what a discussion is all about. Sorry, if my questions cause you discomfort, but my intention is to understand, not prove you right or wrong. Maybe my standards are bit higher than you are accustomed, but it is only because I take my beliefs very very seriously.

So, please do not interpret my interrogatives as mean, spiteful or harsh towards you personally. I am just very rough on all belief systems because I demand the truth.

615

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
OH no, this is a discussion thread - you know, where we discuss topics and try to understand each other. This is not about proving you wrong, it is about understanding how you arrived at a doctrine you claim as as valid.

We have the same starting point - scripture, but you have arrived at a completely different location. My questions are intended to reach an rationale understanding of how you could end up where you are when my understanding leads me to a different place.

Therefore I ask questions (like my 5 points) asking you to directly address them - you guys have responded basically that my points are correct, but my interpretation is wrong without giving any basis or proof for the acceptance of another interpretation. Thus I have to keep raising the points again and again.

If you do not want to give an answer, that’s fine. But I have legitimate questions with specific rationales in mind and only ask to understand why you discount or ignore evidence i find conclusive or compelling and try to get from you what you find compelling. Whne you provide that compelling-to-you evidence, I am going to challenge it, because I want to measure the veracity of it.

That’s what a discussion is all about. Sorry, if my questions cause you discomfort, but my intention is to understand, not prove you right or wrong. Maybe my standards are bit higher than you are accustomed, but it is only because I take my beliefs very very seriously.

So, please do not interpret my interrogatives as mean, spiteful or harsh towards you personally. I am just very rough on all belief systems because I demand the truth.[/quote]

I receive no discomfort from discussions. I don’t know what more I can offer to you. I have been following along as mse2us laid out very complete and thorough information only to be tossed aside as the ravings of a lunatic. His answers were great, and there is nothing that I can personally found lacking in it. He addressed your 5 points, obviously not to your liking. He has also address, albeit breifly, your question of 607 B.c.e. And He has addressed the significance of 1914 and Jesus presence. I think you are just looking for something different, is all.

616

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
thank honest - but all you’re doing is proving the very point I want to make and that is that wars, plagues, famines and earthquakes are all a constant of human experience on earth - they have occurred since the fall and will continue to occur - so the signs of Christ’s return are applicable in all times and in all place - therefore to use the appearance of signs as proof of something can be made at any time. To say that something changed in 1914 based on these types of events is ludicrous on its face, because it is just the continuation of the same old same old . . . Christ’s VISIBLE return is an imminent event - it can happen at any time and the only signs of his return will be that continuation of events that already occur.

[/quote]

Sure, if you want to look at it that way. No one is forcing you to admit anything. The best anyone can do is present data.

What you are saying is exactly what the Bible said people would say.

2 Peter 3:4
They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Of the entire earth only 8 made it through the flood. 8 people. No one outside of Noah’s immediate family listened to his warnings. Jesus said that these days would be like Noah’s. None of the resistance here surprises me.[/quote]

OHHH NO NO NO NO! Au Contrare! There is a world of difference between doubting his return and using the continuation of world events to support that doubt and EXPECTING his return knowing that it could be at any moment and acknowledging that there will be no NEW signs of his coming.
[/quote]

Hmm. OK, but this isn’t just a continuation of world events. It is an increased occurence of Wars, Famines, ETC.

If you want to BELIEVE it is just a continuation of world events, I already said that is your choice. That is what the people of Noah’s day did.

The 20th Century is considered the most deadly century in human history. Coincidence or Significance? I personally believe significance based on what I have learned from the Bible.[/quote]

No, there is an increased recording of these events, but the increse in population size during the 20th century belies an increase in death rates - Life expectancy is higher, population is higher, birth rates are higher . . . we are more aware of the adverse events in the last century becasue of our proximity to them and our global communications.

Yes, I do believe it is the continuation of the same events humnaity has faced since the garden and Jesus indiciated, thus no man knows the day nor the hour of His return.

based in raw numbers, yes, the 20th century was one of the deadliest, but not the deadliest and then when seen in percentage of living population - nope, sorry. The case for 1914 is still just as weak - disputed biblicla intepretation, no historical/archeological evidence and very weak “signs” rationale . . . .[/quote]

What was the deadliest Century then?[/quote]

I’d vote for the 14th. The black plague took out 50% of Europe and about 30% of the world’s population at that time.

617

maybe answers to my questions?

Merely saying that my five points are correct, but the interpretation is wrong is not an answer - it’s the beginning of an answer. When pressed for more details - either refutation of the points or proof of the interpretation, indeed anything of substance beyond the basics - there’s no additional substance, no additional proof . . . that was just on the five points.

I disputed the origins of trinitarian doctrine from pagan beliefs - no repsonse

I explained the passages in question from the greek - no response

I asked some direct questions - only 2 receive an answer

I challenged the “kingship in heaven” - no response

I asked for detailed examination of the proof for the 1914 date - no response

I am trying to understand your pov, but you’re giving nothing . . .

618

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
maybe answers to my questions?

Merely saying that my five points are correct, but the interpretation is wrong is not an answer - it’s the beginning of an answer. When pressed for more details - either refutation of the points or proof of the interpretation, indeed anything of substance beyond the basics - there’s no additional substance, no additional proof . . . that was just on the five points.

I disputed the origins of trinitarian doctrine from pagan beliefs - no repsonse

I explained the passages in question from the greek - no response

I asked some direct questions - only 2 receive an answer

I challenged the “kingship in heaven” - no response

I asked for detailed examination of the proof for the 1914 date - no response

I am trying to understand your pov, but you’re giving nothing . . .

[/quote]

I to have asked very direct question that get no answers, just a wall of cut and pasted loosely joined together scripture passages. Here are some that I am very interested in:

The Trinity was officially recognized as the universal truth BEFORE the bible was assembled. Are you going to tell me, that the Counsel of Nicea is false but the Synod of Carthage was true?
Are you going to tell me that the Trinity doctrine is false but a full generation passes before we have the Bible and that is true?
Are you telling me that God was with the people at Carthage, but he abandoned them in Nicea?

What was wrong with scripture that JW’s felt they had to rewrite it to change it’s meaning. By whose authority is this done?

619

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

OK, feel free to believe that. I don’t agree with you on the first, second, or third point. I believe that there has been increased in the events, as prophesied. I believe that 607 is proved through history. I believe that Jesus presence began in 1914.[/quote]

ok then . . .

Where is the passage that prophecied an “increase” in these types of events in 1914?

Where is the historical proof for 607?

Where’s the proof that Jesus was not already in possession of ALL authority prior to 1914?

and a follow-on question to number 3 - why are you applying passages speaking of His visible return to take away the church as proof for his ascension to kingship in heaven?[/quote]

Your approach over the course of this thread has been:

Ask for information.

Deny the authority of it, or the application of it.

Say that we are not addressing your questions.

I personally don’t feel the desire to get into that. If you are satisfied with the way the world/life is, there is nothing anyone can do to change that.

If you feel that proving us “wrong” is what you want to do, again, feel free. Maybe it makes you feel better or maybe you think you are doing everyone a favor by making us out to look like lost sheep. I don’t know.

The information you need is available, feel free to search it out. [/quote]

No, you (JW’s) are avoiding the hard questions. You regurgitate what you have been told but avoiding the hard questions.

If you cannot throw up a wall of copied scripture passages, then you have no answers.

Faith has to be scrutinized, you have to be able to handle the tough questions.

620

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
thank honest - but all you’re doing is proving the very point I want to make and that is that wars, plagues, famines and earthquakes are all a constant of human experience on earth - they have occurred since the fall and will continue to occur - so the signs of Christ’s return are applicable in all times and in all place - therefore to use the appearance of signs as proof of something can be made at any time. To say that something changed in 1914 based on these types of events is ludicrous on its face, because it is just the continuation of the same old same old . . . Christ’s VISIBLE return is an imminent event - it can happen at any time and the only signs of his return will be that continuation of events that already occur.

[/quote]

Sure, if you want to look at it that way. No one is forcing you to admit anything. The best anyone can do is present data.

What you are saying is exactly what the Bible said people would say.

2 Peter 3:4
They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Of the entire earth only 8 made it through the flood. 8 people. No one outside of Noah’s immediate family listened to his warnings. Jesus said that these days would be like Noah’s. None of the resistance here surprises me.[/quote]

AND what you are saying is exactly what Jesus said people would say…“The end is near!” He said not to listen to them.
Mt 24:24-28[/quote]

Let me quote Matthew 24:24-28 and please tell me how you paraphrased it the way you did.

24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect�?�¢??if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.[/quote]

I meant Mt 24:26-28…[/quote]

That is quoted as well, please feel free to tell me how you applied your paraphrasing. [/quote]

If you are claiming knowledge over something that only God the Father posses, then you are playing the role of the false prophet; and I am being aware. These inter woven threads of scripture struggling to prove this 1914 theory, of the devil cast down to earth theory sound more like conspiracy theory than scriptural proof. The Bible is huge, what do you choose to pay attention to an what do you cast aside and why?