Trinity - Bible Teaching or Doctrine of Man

[dmaddox]

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Pat wrote:

Yes, it is still tortured logic. You are claiming factual knowledge of the going ons in heaven of from something that is largely symbolic, as is the book of Revelation. In the context of the story, it can be taken many ways. The woman can be God’s people, the twelve stars being the twelve tribes of Israel. The birth would would be the birth of the Messiah. The messiah was called to heaven, the people of God scattered. War breaks out, Satan loses. He precedes then to attack God by going after his people. The date stamp of 1914 is no where in there. There is no discernible difference between 1914 and now. I could see how the folks in 1914 thought WW1 was the beginning of the end, but it clearly wasn’t. The war ended and life continued. Hell, the flu pandemic of 1918 was more deadly than WW1.[/quote]

I’m claiming knowledge of what’s going on in heaven based on what the Bible says. Yes, Revelation is largely symbolic but that doesn’t mean the symbolism doesn’t have a meaning. Symbolic terms always have a meaning but often times one has to turn to other parts of the Bible to see what the symbolic term represents. I’ll give you an example. Revelation 12:12 states:
“On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”

This is a verse from the passage I’ve been quoting to show that when Satan was kicked out of heaven, God’s kingdom was officially announced and Jesus as the king, Satan having great anger causes Woe for the people of the earth and this is the start of Jesus’ presence and the Last Days. When one reads the above verse and comes across the part that says "Woe to the earth and sea, that person may not understand what the “sea” means because it’s not explained. That person may not know to look to other parts of the Bible to understand what the term “sea” means. If that person knew to turn to Isaiah 57:20 which states:20 “But the wicked are like the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire.” And if the person knew to turn to Revelation 17:15 which states: 15 And he says to me: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.”

When one reads the two above scriptures then he can see that the sea mentioned in Revelation 12:12 means people. The verse then becomes clear and makes sense. That person will understand that Revelation 12:12 is saying woe to the earth and the people because the devil has come down with great anger knowing he has a short period of time.

Again, just because the book of Revelation is largely symbolic doesn’t mean that it has no meaning. Unfortunately, many people feel that because of the difficulty of Revelation, that it’s the least important book which is how you feel. This is the the furthest from the truth. Revelation is one of the most important books in the Bible.

[/quote]

I would say that the people of the time see the sea as being the great sea or the Mediterranean Sea. You have to read the Bible first as the people of that time would have read and understood it. Only then when you understand it that way can you be able to apply it to the current times. When I say you are taking scripture out of context this is what that means.

[pat]

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Pat wrote:

Yes, it is still tortured logic. You are claiming factual knowledge of the going ons in heaven of from something that is largely symbolic, as is the book of Revelation. In the context of the story, it can be taken many ways. The woman can be God’s people, the twelve stars being the twelve tribes of Israel. The birth would would be the birth of the Messiah. The messiah was called to heaven, the people of God scattered. War breaks out, Satan loses. He precedes then to attack God by going after his people. The date stamp of 1914 is no where in there. There is no discernible difference between 1914 and now. I could see how the folks in 1914 thought WW1 was the beginning of the end, but it clearly wasn’t. The war ended and life continued. Hell, the flu pandemic of 1918 was more deadly than WW1.[/quote]

I’m claiming knowledge of what’s going on in heaven based on what the Bible says. Yes, Revelation is largely symbolic but that doesn’t mean the symbolism doesn’t have a meaning. Symbolic terms always have a meaning but often times one has to turn to other parts of the Bible to see what the symbolic term represents. I’ll give you an example. Revelation 12:12 states:
“On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”

This is a verse from the passage I’ve been quoting to show that when Satan was kicked out of heaven, God’s kingdom was officially announced and Jesus as the king, Satan having great anger causes Woe for the people of the earth and this is the start of Jesus’ presence and the Last Days. When one reads the above verse and comes across the part that says "Woe to the earth and sea, that person may not understand what the “sea” means because it’s not explained. That person may not know to look to other parts of the Bible to understand what the term “sea” means. If that person knew to turn to Isaiah 57:20 which states:20 “But the wicked are like the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire.” And if the person knew to turn to Revelation 17:15 which states: 15 And he says to me: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.”

When one reads the two above scriptures then he can see that the sea mentioned in Revelation 12:12 means people. The verse then becomes clear and makes sense. That person will understand that Revelation 12:12 is saying woe to the earth and the people because the devil has come down with great anger knowing he has a short period of time.

Again, just because the book of Revelation is largely symbolic doesn’t mean that it has no meaning. Unfortunately, many people feel that because of the difficulty of Revelation, that it’s the least important book which is how you feel. This is the the furthest from the truth. Revelation is one of the most important books in the Bible.

[/quote]

I know Revelation is very important to you (I mean JW’s). The question is, why? I am not saying it’s meaningless, but it’s signifigance is not that big a deal if you pay attention to the preceding books. If you follow the tenet’s of teachings of Jesus and you have faith in Christ, it doesn’t much matter what happens in Revelation. You cannot control it, and if you listened you have a place in the the Kingdom. God’s will, will be done whether you “get it” or not.
So why is Revelation so important to you guys anyway?

[pat]

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Pat wrote:

Yes, it is still tortured logic. You are claiming factual knowledge of the going ons in heaven of from something that is largely symbolic, as is the book of Revelation. In the context of the story, it can be taken many ways. The woman can be God’s people, the twelve stars being the twelve tribes of Israel. The birth would would be the birth of the Messiah. The messiah was called to heaven, the people of God scattered. War breaks out, Satan loses. He precedes then to attack God by going after his people. The date stamp of 1914 is no where in there. There is no discernible difference between 1914 and now. I could see how the folks in 1914 thought WW1 was the beginning of the end, but it clearly wasn’t. The war ended and life continued. Hell, the flu pandemic of 1918 was more deadly than WW1.[/quote]

I’m claiming knowledge of what’s going on in heaven based on what the Bible says. Yes, Revelation is largely symbolic but that doesn’t mean the symbolism doesn’t have a meaning. Symbolic terms always have a meaning but often times one has to turn to other parts of the Bible to see what the symbolic term represents. I’ll give you an example. Revelation 12:12 states:
“On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”

This is a verse from the passage I’ve been quoting to show that when Satan was kicked out of heaven, God’s kingdom was officially announced and Jesus as the king, Satan having great anger causes Woe for the people of the earth and this is the start of Jesus’ presence and the Last Days. When one reads the above verse and comes across the part that says "Woe to the earth and sea, that person may not understand what the “sea” means because it’s not explained. That person may not know to look to other parts of the Bible to understand what the term “sea” means. If that person knew to turn to Isaiah 57:20 which states:20 “But the wicked are like the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire.” And if the person knew to turn to Revelation 17:15 which states: 15 And he says to me: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.”

When one reads the two above scriptures then he can see that the sea mentioned in Revelation 12:12 means people. The verse then becomes clear and makes sense. That person will understand that Revelation 12:12 is saying woe to the earth and the people because the devil has come down with great anger knowing he has a short period of time.

Again, just because the book of Revelation is largely symbolic doesn’t mean that it has no meaning. Unfortunately, many people feel that because of the difficulty of Revelation, that it’s the least important book which is how you feel. This is the the furthest from the truth. Revelation is one of the most important books in the Bible.

[/quote]

I would say that the people of the time see the sea as being the great sea or the Mediterranean Sea. You have to read the Bible first as the people of that time would have read and understood it. Only then when you understand it that way can you be able to apply it to the current times. When I say you are taking scripture out of context this is what that means.[/quote]

I agree…

[mse2us]

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
The date stamp of 1914 is no where in there. There is no discernible difference between 1914 and now. I could see how the folks in 1914 thought WW1 was the beginning of the end, but it clearly wasn’t. The war ended and life continued. Hell, the flu pandemic of 1918 was more deadly than WW1[/quote]
[/quote]
No date of when a major event is going to happen is recorded in the Bible. Jehovah doesn’t give dates but he does give signs that his faithful servants are to look to to discern a particular event. I’ll give two examples. The first is when the Messiah would appear. There are dozens of prophecies in the Bible that would serve as signs that expectant Jews were to look to to identify that Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus was born around 1 C.E. and he became the messiah around 30 C.E. The date of 1 C.E. and 30 C.E. is not stamped anywhere in the Bible but the Jews were to keep on the watch for the Messiah and once he appeared one of the ways they could identify him is through the fulfillment of Bible prophecies mention in the Hebrew scriptures. Just because the Bible doesn’t give the dates of 1 C.E. and 30 C.E. doesn’t mean that Jesus was not born around 1 C.E. and became the Messiah in 30 C.E.

The other example is the last days of the Jewish system of things. Jesus said that the temple in Jerusalem would be destroyed and he also said that the Roman army would surround Jerusalem with pointed stakes and dash everyone to pieces and completely destroy the temple. Jesus did not give a date as to when these things would take place but again, he did give signs that faithful Christians could use to identify that they were living in the last days, when the destruction of Jerusalem was eminent and what they needed to do to survive. Jesus gave his disciples signs at Mark 13 such as wars, earthquakes and famine and these signs happened on a small scale in that part of the world between the years 39 C.E. and 70 C.E (I could provide specific examples but since this is long I won’t). Jesus gave two more signs that let his disciples know that the end was eminent. He said at Mark 13:14 that when they “catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation standing where it ought not (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.” Jesus also said at Luke 21:20 that when his disciples saw “Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near.” Let me put this together for you. Jesus told his disciples the signs that they were to look to know that Jerusalem would be destroyed. Wars, famine, earthquakes and pestilence began to happen in that part of the world at an increased rate. When his disciples saw these things happening they knew they were in the last days before Jerusalem would be destroyed. Then in 66 C.E. Cestius Gallus, the Roman General, surrounded Jerusalem with an army and eventually begin to undermine the temple wall. The faithful Christians living in Judea recalled Jesus’ words about seeing “an encamped army surround Jerusalem” and “seeing the disgusting things that cause desolation” so they knew that the destruction of Jerusalem was eminent.
Cestius Gallus for some unknown reason withdrew his troops from Jerusalem and retreated. At that moment the faithful Christians had the opportunity to flee to the mountains and history shows that’s exactly what they did. They fled from Jerusalem to Pella a neutral city in the mountains and awaited further developments. On the other hand, the Jews thought they had driven the Roman army away and won but that wasn’t the case. Four years later in 70 C.E. General Titus had his army strip the Judean country side of trees and create a fortification of wooden stakes around Jerusalem. Once this happened, no one in Judea was able to flee. The Roman Army entered the city, killed over one million Jews and took almost 100,000 into slavery. It happened exactly how Jesus said it would. My point is that the years 66 C.E. which was when the Christians living in Judea fled to the mountains and 70 C.E. which was when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, was not indicated in the Bible. God’s people, the Christians, had to keep on the watch to be able to recognize the signs and discern that they were the signs Jesus gave that indicated that they were living in the last days of the Jewish system of things. The ones who did that and fleed to the mountains as Jesus told them to do survived. The last days of the Jewish system of things lasted 40 years. Matthew 24:3 show that the event I described above parallels the last days of the sytem of things were living in today.

The year 1914 was not a year that was grabbed out of a hat. Jesus gave a sign at Luke 21:24 that stated Jerusalem would be trampled on by by the nations until the appointed times are fulfilled. This prophecy had a meaning. Jerusalem and the kings of Jerusalem represented God’s rule over his chosen people the Israelites. The Bible states that the promised seed, Jesus would come from the line of Judah. David was from the line of Judah as well as Jesus who is called the “son of David.” The last king to sit on God’s throne in the line of Judah was David’s descendant King Zedekiah. When he was forcible removed when by the Babylonians in 607 B.C.E. he was the last king in the line of David to sit on God’s throne. Ezekiel 21:26:27 states that the crown would be removed and would become no ones until he who has the legal right comes. Luke 1:32,33 states that God will give Jesus the “throne of David his father” and that there would be no end to his kingdom. As the “son of David” Jesus is the one who has the legal right. Russell and his associates weren’t the one’s who figured out how long the seven times was in Daniel 4:10-16 which was 2520 years but they were the ones who realized when in history to apply the the 2520 years. When they applied it to when Zedekiah, who was the last king to rule in the line of David, was removed as king by the Babylonians in 607 B.C.E. they were taken to the year 1914 AD which was the year Jesus became king in heaven.

Once Jesus became king in heaven, Revelation 12:7-12 states that Satan was kicked out of heaven and that he would cause WOE for the people of the earth. This WOE is symbolized at Revelation 6 as three horsemen who ride with the newly crowned Jesus. The newly crowned Jesus rides first and then horsemen that represent war, famine and plague ride one after another and with Jesus. This is EXACTLY what happened from 1914 - 1918. First, Jesus becomes king in 1914. Followed by a world war that never occurred before; this is symbolized by the first horseman - war. As a result of the war, food shortages started to occur in different parts of the world from 1916 - 1918; this is symbolized by the second horseman - famine. And then in 1918, pestilence hit the world like never before in the form of the spanish flu; this is symbolized by the third horseman - plague. Since 1914 we have been bombarded with these signs. Add earthquakes which is one of the signs Jesus mentions and the human traits that would be dominant during the last days mentioned at 2 Timothy 3:1-5 and no one can deny that they don’t see the signs.

The discernable difference between 1914 and now is that all of the signs are even more discernable now then they were in 1914. Due to technology, these signs are discernable on a world wide scale. Where as in the first century the signs Jesus gave were only discernable in that part of the world which was because the system of things that ended was only for one group of people in that part of the world. That’s not the case this time. Because the system of things that is going to end during the last days we are in now is going to be on a global scale which is why all of the signs I’ve been talking about can be seen all over the world. Before the 20th century these signs were not only NOT EVIDENT due to lack of technology which caused news to travel very slow but mankind leading up to the 20th century was headed to what many thought was a Golden Age. This was due to the fact that humans were increasing in knowledge technically and scientifically at a fast rate and as the world entered the 20th century many thought that the 20th century would be unparalleled in peace and prosperity but 1914 hit and the would was not only never the same but it got worse and worse. Just turn on the world news and you can see the signs Jesus mentioned at Matthew 24:3 and the human traits mentioned at 2 Timothy 3:1-5 that would be dominant during the last days on display for the whole world to see every time you turn on the tv.

Again, these signs, war, famine, pestilence and earthquakes make up some of the signs that Jesus said would mark his presence and the conclusion of the system of things at Matthew 24:3. After telling his disciples these signs, he give an illustration at Matthew 24:32,33 which states: 32 “Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, YOU know that summer is near. 33 Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.”

Jesus then goes onto say that no one knows the day or hour of Armageddon not even him but at Matthew 24:37-39 he states (NWT): “37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.” They took no note of what? The signs that Jesus just gave in the earlier verses. So during Jesus’ presence which is compared to the days before the flood which was a 50-60 year period, most people will not discern the signs he just gave until it is too late and they are swept away by Armageddon. The ones who do take note and are able to discern the signs know that Jesus is near at the doors. And when he comes through the doors which is when Armageddon will occur they will not be caught off guard.

Guys, according to the Bible we are living in that time period which the Bible calls Jesus’ presence and the Last Days. According to Revelation 12:12 when Satan was kicked out of heaven and thrown down to earth, he causes Woe to the people of the earth due to his great anger because he knows his time is short. Again, we are living during that time of unprecedented WOE. Don’t be like the people Jesus says takes no note until it is too late. There was one system of things that came to an end in 70 C.E. Look to that example. Through signs Jesus gave, his disciples were able to see the signs and discern them and survive the end of the Jewish system of things. Those same signs he gave to the first century Christians are now serving as signs that all can see on a world wide display and when the end comes no one will be able to say that they didn’t see the signs.

[dmaddox]

[quote]mse2us wrote:
Those same signs he gave to the first century Christians are now serving as signs that all can see on a world wide display and when the end comes no one will be able to say that they didn’t see the signs.[/quote]

I hope this is quoted by you mse2us. I hate it when I mess up a quote.

You will take the signs that Jesus passed on to the first century church, but you will not take the teachings Jesus passed on to the first century church? This seems a bit selective by you. Please do not pick and choose what you want to believe. You have to take the whole thing.

[JoabSonOfZeruiah]

@ JW If you take Revelation seriously what is your interpretation of the letters to the seven churches.

[mse2us]

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Pat wrote:

Yes, it is still tortured logic. You are claiming factual knowledge of the going ons in heaven of from something that is largely symbolic, as is the book of Revelation. In the context of the story, it can be taken many ways. The woman can be God’s people, the twelve stars being the twelve tribes of Israel. The birth would would be the birth of the Messiah. The messiah was called to heaven, the people of God scattered. War breaks out, Satan loses. He precedes then to attack God by going after his people. The date stamp of 1914 is no where in there. There is no discernible difference between 1914 and now. I could see how the folks in 1914 thought WW1 was the beginning of the end, but it clearly wasn’t. The war ended and life continued. Hell, the flu pandemic of 1918 was more deadly than WW1.[/quote]

I’m claiming knowledge of what’s going on in heaven based on what the Bible says. Yes, Revelation is largely symbolic but that doesn’t mean the symbolism doesn’t have a meaning. Symbolic terms always have a meaning but often times one has to turn to other parts of the Bible to see what the symbolic term represents. I’ll give you an example. Revelation 12:12 states:
“On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”

This is a verse from the passage I’ve been quoting to show that when Satan was kicked out of heaven, God’s kingdom was officially announced and Jesus as the king, Satan having great anger causes Woe for the people of the earth and this is the start of Jesus’ presence and the Last Days. When one reads the above verse and comes across the part that says "Woe to the earth and sea, that person may not understand what the “sea” means because it’s not explained. That person may not know to look to other parts of the Bible to understand what the term “sea” means. If that person knew to turn to Isaiah 57:20 which states:20 “But the wicked are like the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire.” And if the person knew to turn to Revelation 17:15 which states: 15 And he says to me: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.”

When one reads the two above scriptures then he can see that the sea mentioned in Revelation 12:12 means people. The verse then becomes clear and makes sense. That person will understand that Revelation 12:12 is saying woe to the earth and the people because the devil has come down with great anger knowing he has a short period of time.

Again, just because the book of Revelation is largely symbolic doesn’t mean that it has no meaning. Unfortunately, many people feel that because of the difficulty of Revelation, that it’s the least important book which is how you feel. This is the the furthest from the truth. Revelation is one of the most important books in the Bible.

[/quote]

I would say that the people of the time see the sea as being the great sea or the Mediterranean Sea. You have to read the Bible first as the people of that time would have read and understood it. Only then when you understand it that way can you be able to apply it to the current times. When I say you are taking scripture out of context this is what that means.[/quote]
No D, Satan is kicked out of heaven and is angry so he causes trouble for the earth and the people of the earth. Remember, the book of Revelation is largely symbolic, when he is kicked out of heaven why would he cause trouble for the great sea or the Mediterranean sea? Remember D, Satan’s main goal from the beginning is to attack the people of the earth not large bodies of water.

Since there is a lot of symbolism in the Book of Revelation even the people at the end of the first century would may not have fully understood what this meant. Remember, Jesus used symbolic terms in his illustrations and his listeners did not always understand what the symbolism represented. It’s also possible that the Christians at that time fully understood what John was talking about since the holy spirit God sent in 33 C.E. was still operating in the Christian congregation which allowed them to perform powerful works.

This is not an example of taking a scripture out of context. I’m doing the exact opposite I’m using the the complete passage about this event which is Revelation 12:7-12. The passage is about Satan being forcibly removed from heaven and thrown down to earth. After getting his butt kicked he is naturally upset. Why would he take his anger out on a body of water? There is no evidence that a body of water anywhere in the world was affected in a negative way. There is however, overwhelming evidence that Satan has caused Woe to the earth and the people of the earth especially since 1914.

You thinking that the sea mentioned at Revelaion 12:12 is the great sea or the Mediterranean sea is what I mean when I say that most people don’t understand that the symbolic terms in Revelation have other meanings and don’t know to turn to other parts of the Bible to find what the symbolism represents. If you knew to do that D then you would not think Satan was taking his anger out on a body of water when his goal from the beginning was the people of the earth. You thinking that Satan is taking his anger out on a body of water causes you and many to completely misunderstand the main part of that passage.

[mse2us]

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
Those same signs he gave to the first century Christians are now serving as signs that all can see on a world wide display and when the end comes no one will be able to say that they didn’t see the signs.[/quote]

I hope this is quoted by you mse2us. I hate it when I mess up a quote.

You will take the signs that Jesus passed on to the first century church, but you will not take the teachings Jesus passed on to the first century church? This seems a bit selective by you. Please do not pick and choose what you want to believe. You have to take the whole thing.[/quote]
D, none of those teaching were taught in the first century. Secular history states this as well as the Catholic Encyclopedia which is the group that made the trinity an official doctrine. JW’s pattern themselves after the first century Christian congregation and things such as using images in worship, such as the cross and statues, the immortality of the soul and the trinity teaching was no where to found in the christian congregation of the first century. Again, show me were Jesus teaches that he is God, that the soul survives after death and that the instrument used to kill Jesus should be held in high regard and prayed to.

[Tiribulus]

[quote]mse2us wrote:
<<< No D, Satan is kicked out of heaven and is angry so he causes trouble for the earth and the people of the earth. Remember, the book of Revelation is largely symbolic, when he is kicked out of heaven why would he cause trouble for the great sea or the Mediterranean sea? Remember D, Satan’s main goal from the beginning is to attack the people of the earth not large bodies of water. >>> [/quote]
I just can’t resist this one buddy. Think with me for a minute about what you just said. “The book of Revelation is symbolic.” Nobody is saying that Satan is standing on a rock on the shores of the Mediterranean beating the water. Of course earth and sea is symbolic for the whole creation and especially mankind. Why do we need a dodgy specific cross reference with Isaiah to know that? The fact that a metaphor is used in one place one way does not dictate that it must be the case everywhere else.

So what difference does it make? Everybody agrees that people, being the crown of God’s creation are the primary target of Satan’s attacks. I’ll tell ya what difference it makes. It illustrates the fractured hermeneutic method used by the governing body to reach a whole host of it’s erroneous conclusions.

[dmaddox]

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
Those same signs he gave to the first century Christians are now serving as signs that all can see on a world wide display and when the end comes no one will be able to say that they didn’t see the signs.[/quote]

I hope this is quoted by you mse2us. I hate it when I mess up a quote.

You will take the signs that Jesus passed on to the first century church, but you will not take the teachings Jesus passed on to the first century church? This seems a bit selective by you. Please do not pick and choose what you want to believe. You have to take the whole thing.[/quote]
D, none of those teaching were taught in the first century. Secular history states this as well as the Catholic Encyclopedia which is the group that made the trinity an official doctrine. JW’s pattern themselves after the first century Christian congregation and things such as using images in worship, such as the cross and statues, the immortality of the soul and the trinity teaching was no where to found in the christian congregation of the first century. Again, show me were Jesus teaches that he is God, that the soul survives after death and that the instrument used to kill Jesus should be held in high regard and prayed to.[/quote]

First we have proved otherwise. We also proved that you took the Catholic Encyclopedia out of context. We will not revist this. You are wrong.

[dmaddox]

[quote]mse2us wrote:

No D, Satan is kicked out of heaven and is angry so he causes trouble for the earth and the people of the earth. Remember, the book of Revelation is largely symbolic, when he is kicked out of heaven why would he cause trouble for the great sea or the Mediterranean sea? Remember D, Satan’s main goal from the beginning is to attack the people of the earth not large bodies of water.

Since there is a lot of symbolism in the Book of Revelation even the people at the end of the first century would may not have fully understood what this meant. Remember, Jesus used symbolic terms in his illustrations and his listeners did not always understand what the symbolism represented. It’s also possible that the Christians at that time fully understood what John was talking about since the holy spirit God sent in 33 C.E. was still operating in the Christian congregation which allowed them to perform powerful works.

This is not an example of taking a scripture out of context. I’m doing the exact opposite I’m using the the complete passage about this event which is Revelation 12:7-12. The passage is about Satan being forcibly removed from heaven and thrown down to earth. After getting his butt kicked he is naturally upset. Why would he take his anger out on a body of water? There is no evidence that a body of water anywhere in the world was affected in a negative way. There is however, overwhelming evidence that Satan has caused Woe to the earth and the people of the earth especially since 1914.

You thinking that the sea mentioned at Revelaion 12:12 is the great sea or the Mediterranean sea is what I mean when I say that most people don’t understand that the symbolic terms in Revelation have other meanings and don’t know to turn to other parts of the Bible to find what the symbolism represents. If you knew to do that D then you would not think Satan was taking his anger out on a body of water when his goal from the beginning was the people of the earth. You thinking that Satan is taking his anger out on a body of water causes you and many to completely misunderstand the main part of that passage. [/quote]

I would say the greatest harm Satan did to the world did not happen in 1914, but in the Garden of Eden. War, Famine, Draught, Murder, and all other sins you can name, all started in the Garden when Adam and Eve willfully disobied God. They were descieved by Satan. The Relationship between God and Man was destroyed. You may want to rethink this.

[IrishSteel]

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Again, these signs, war, famine, pestilence and earthquakes make up some of the signs that Jesus said would mark his presence and the conclusion of the system of things at Matthew 24:3. After telling his disciples these signs, he give an illustration at Matthew 24:32,33 which states: 32 “Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, YOU know that summer is near. 33 Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.” [quote]

Then why are the four greatest famines of history found prior to the 20th Century?

The Great Famine of Bengal in 1769 (estimated 10 million people died), The Great Irish Famine beginning in 1845 (over 1 million died in tiny Ireland), and the Chinese Famine of 1878, and the Sudan/Ethiopia famine of 1888. . . . .

Why are the worst plagues found prior to the 20th century as well?

Smallpox - first recorded in 430 BC and killing millions of people prior to the 2oth century including killing nearly ALL of the inhabitants of the Americas . . .

Black Death (1300 thru 1700’) killed an estimated 75 million people . . .

Malaria - first recorded in 1600 - killing an estimated million people per year since discovered . . .

Cholera - first recorded in 1817 and 6 pandemics prior to the 20th century . . .

Typhus - first recorded around 430 BC - famously responsible for the Plague of Athens and wiping out Napoleon’s army in Russia - killing millions in various epidemics raging from the 16th to the 19th centuries. . .

Battles and wars and losses of human lives? - no single battle of WW1 even tops the top 50 greatest single battles of history in deaths . . . the Mongol Conquests killed more than WW1 . . .

It seems to me that picking any one date based on those criteria requires ignoring a lot of history. So you have disputed biblical interpretation, no archeological/historical support and weak connection based on famine/war/plague . . . doesn’t seem like a strong position to me. But I could be wrong . . .

[IrishSteel]

OH and earthquakes . . . of the top 68 for loss of life . . . NONE are in 1914, not even close . . .

[honest_lifter]

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Again, these signs, war, famine, pestilence and earthquakes make up some of the signs that Jesus said would mark his presence and the conclusion of the system of things at Matthew 24:3. After telling his disciples these signs, he give an illustration at Matthew 24:32,33 which states: 32 “Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, YOU know that summer is near. 33 Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.” [quote]

Then why are the four greatest famines of history found prior to the 20th Century?

The Great Famine of Bengal in 1769 (estimated 10 million people died), The Great Irish Famine beginning in 1845 (over 1 million died in tiny Ireland), and the Chinese Famine of 1878, and the Sudan/Ethiopia famine of 1888. . . . .

Why are the worst plagues found prior to the 20th century as well?

Smallpox - first recorded in 430 BC and killing millions of people prior to the 2oth century including killing nearly ALL of the inhabitants of the Americas . . .

Black Death (1300 thru 1700’) killed an estimated 75 million people . . .

Malaria - first recorded in 1600 - killing an estimated million people per year since discovered . . .

Cholera - first recorded in 1817 and 6 pandemics prior to the 20th century . . .

Typhus - first recorded around 430 BC - famously responsible for the Plague of Athens and wiping out Napoleon’s army in Russia - killing millions in various epidemics raging from the 16th to the 19th centuries. . .

Battles and wars and losses of human lives? - no single battle of WW1 even tops the top 50 greatest single battles of history in deaths . . . the Mongol Conquests killed more than WW1 . . .

It seems to me that picking any one date based on those criteria requires ignoring a lot of history. So you have disputed biblical interpretation, no archeological/historical support and weak connection based on famine/war/plague . . . doesn’t seem like a strong position to me. But I could be wrong . . .

[/quote]

1. Giant Leap Forward Famine - This famine occurred from 1959 to 1962. It was under the Chinese Communist Party led by Mao Zedong in the Peopleâ??s Republic of China. This famine is said to of caused the deaths of 20,000,000-43,000,000 people.

2. Soviet Union Famine - From 1932 to 1933, there was a famine in the Soviet Union. This was under the leadership of Joseph Stalin. It is said that 6,000,000-10,000,000 people lost their lives due to this famine.

3. Bengal Famine - In India, in 1943, around 4,000,000 people were killed because of this famine under the leadership of Winston Churchill.

4. Iraqi Famine - From 1990 to 2003, in Iraq, it is estimated that 1,000,000-3,000,000 people were killed as a result of this famine.

5. Great Irish Famine - This is one of the most widely known famines in history. From 1846 to 1849, in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, this famine took the lives of 500,000-2,000,000 people.

[pat]

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
The date stamp of 1914 is no where in there. There is no discernible difference between 1914 and now. I could see how the folks in 1914 thought WW1 was the beginning of the end, but it clearly wasn’t. The war ended and life continued. Hell, the flu pandemic of 1918 was more deadly than WW1[/quote]
[/quote]
No date of when a major event is going to happen is recorded in the Bible. Jehovah doesn’t give dates but he does give signs that his faithful servants are to look to to discern a particular event. I’ll give two examples. The first is when the Messiah would appear. There are dozens of prophecies in the Bible that would serve as signs that expectant Jews were to look to to identify that Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus was born around 1 C.E. and he became the messiah around 30 C.E. The date of 1 C.E. and 30 C.E. is not stamped anywhere in the Bible but the Jews were to keep on the watch for the Messiah and once he appeared one of the ways they could identify him is through the fulfillment of Bible prophecies mention in the Hebrew scriptures. Just because the Bible doesn’t give the dates of 1 C.E. and 30 C.E. doesn’t mean that Jesus was not born around 1 C.E. and became the Messiah in 30 C.E.

The other example is the last days of the Jewish system of things. Jesus said that the temple in Jerusalem would be destroyed and he also said that the Roman army would surround Jerusalem with pointed stakes and dash everyone to pieces and completely destroy the temple. Jesus did not give a date as to when these things would take place but again, he did give signs that faithful Christians could use to identify that they were living in the last days, when the destruction of Jerusalem was eminent and what they needed to do to survive. Jesus gave his disciples signs at Mark 13 such as wars, earthquakes and famine and these signs happened on a small scale in that part of the world between the years 39 C.E. and 70 C.E (I could provide specific examples but since this is long I won’t). Jesus gave two more signs that let his disciples know that the end was eminent. He said at Mark 13:14 that when they “catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation standing where it ought not (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.” Jesus also said at Luke 21:20 that when his disciples saw “Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near.” Let me put this together for you. Jesus told his disciples the signs that they were to look to know that Jerusalem would be destroyed. Wars, famine, earthquakes and pestilence began to happen in that part of the world at an increased rate. When his disciples saw these things happening they knew they were in the last days before Jerusalem would be destroyed. Then in 66 C.E. Cestius Gallus, the Roman General, surrounded Jerusalem with an army and eventually begin to undermine the temple wall. The faithful Christians living in Judea recalled Jesus’ words about seeing “an encamped army surround Jerusalem” and “seeing the disgusting things that cause desolation” so they knew that the destruction of Jerusalem was eminent.
Cestius Gallus for some unknown reason withdrew his troops from Jerusalem and retreated. At that moment the faithful Christians had the opportunity to flee to the mountains and history shows that’s exactly what they did. They fled from Jerusalem to Pella a neutral city in the mountains and awaited further developments. On the other hand, the Jews thought they had driven the Roman army away and won but that wasn’t the case. Four years later in 70 C.E. General Titus had his army strip the Judean country side of trees and create a fortification of wooden stakes around Jerusalem. Once this happened, no one in Judea was able to flee. The Roman Army entered the city, killed over one million Jews and took almost 100,000 into slavery. It happened exactly how Jesus said it would. My point is that the years 66 C.E. which was when the Christians living in Judea fled to the mountains and 70 C.E. which was when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, was not indicated in the Bible. God’s people, the Christians, had to keep on the watch to be able to recognize the signs and discern that they were the signs Jesus gave that indicated that they were living in the last days of the Jewish system of things. The ones who did that and fleed to the mountains as Jesus told them to do survived. The last days of the Jewish system of things lasted 40 years. Matthew 24:3 show that the event I described above parallels the last days of the sytem of things were living in today.

The year 1914 was not a year that was grabbed out of a hat. Jesus gave a sign at Luke 21:24 that stated Jerusalem would be trampled on by by the nations until the appointed times are fulfilled. This prophecy had a meaning. Jerusalem and the kings of Jerusalem represented God’s rule over his chosen people the Israelites. The Bible states that the promised seed, Jesus would come from the line of Judah. David was from the line of Judah as well as Jesus who is called the “son of David.” The last king to sit on God’s throne in the line of Judah was David’s descendant King Zedekiah. When he was forcible removed when by the Babylonians in 607 B.C.E. he was the last king in the line of David to sit on God’s throne. Ezekiel 21:26:27 states that the crown would be removed and would become no ones until he who has the legal right comes. Luke 1:32,33 states that God will give Jesus the “throne of David his father” and that there would be no end to his kingdom. As the “son of David” Jesus is the one who has the legal right. Russell and his associates weren’t the one’s who figured out how long the seven times was in Daniel 4:10-16 which was 2520 years but they were the ones who realized when in history to apply the the 2520 years. When they applied it to when Zedekiah, who was the last king to rule in the line of David, was removed as king by the Babylonians in 607 B.C.E. they were taken to the year 1914 AD which was the year Jesus became king in heaven.

Once Jesus became king in heaven, Revelation 12:7-12 states that Satan was kicked out of heaven and that he would cause WOE for the people of the earth. This WOE is symbolized at Revelation 6 as three horsemen who ride with the newly crowned Jesus. The newly crowned Jesus rides first and then horsemen that represent war, famine and plague ride one after another and with Jesus. This is EXACTLY what happened from 1914 - 1918. First, Jesus becomes king in 1914. Followed by a world war that never occurred before; this is symbolized by the first horseman - war. As a result of the war, food shortages started to occur in different parts of the world from 1916 - 1918; this is symbolized by the second horseman - famine. And then in 1918, pestilence hit the world like never before in the form of the spanish flu; this is symbolized by the third horseman - plague. Since 1914 we have been bombarded with these signs. Add earthquakes which is one of the signs Jesus mentions and the human traits that would be dominant during the last days mentioned at 2 Timothy 3:1-5 and no one can deny that they don’t see the signs.

The discernable difference between 1914 and now is that all of the signs are even more discernable now then they were in 1914. Due to technology, these signs are discernable on a world wide scale. Where as in the first century the signs Jesus gave were only discernable in that part of the world which was because the system of things that ended was only for one group of people in that part of the world. That’s not the case this time. Because the system of things that is going to end during the last days we are in now is going to be on a global scale which is why all of the signs I’ve been talking about can be seen all over the world. Before the 20th century these signs were not only NOT EVIDENT due to lack of technology which caused news to travel very slow but mankind leading up to the 20th century was headed to what many thought was a Golden Age. This was due to the fact that humans were increasing in knowledge technically and scientifically at a fast rate and as the world entered the 20th century many thought that the 20th century would be unparalleled in peace and prosperity but 1914 hit and the would was not only never the same but it got worse and worse. Just turn on the world news and you can see the signs Jesus mentioned at Matthew 24:3 and the human traits mentioned at 2 Timothy 3:1-5 that would be dominant during the last days on display for the whole world to see every time you turn on the tv.

Again, these signs, war, famine, pestilence and earthquakes make up some of the signs that Jesus said would mark his presence and the conclusion of the system of things at Matthew 24:3. After telling his disciples these signs, he give an illustration at Matthew 24:32,33 which states: 32 “Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, YOU know that summer is near. 33 Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.”

Jesus then goes onto say that no one knows the day or hour of Armageddon not even him but at Matthew 24:37-39 he states (NWT): “37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.” They took no note of what? The signs that Jesus just gave in the earlier verses. So during Jesus’ presence which is compared to the days before the flood which was a 50-60 year period, most people will not discern the signs he just gave until it is too late and they are swept away by Armageddon. The ones who do take note and are able to discern the signs know that Jesus is near at the doors. And when he comes through the doors which is when Armageddon will occur they will not be caught off guard.

Guys, according to the Bible we are living in that time period which the Bible calls Jesus’ presence and the Last Days. According to Revelation 12:12 when Satan was kicked out of heaven and thrown down to earth, he causes Woe to the people of the earth due to his great anger because he knows his time is short. Again, we are living during that time of unprecedented WOE. Don’t be like the people Jesus says takes no note until it is too late. There was one system of things that came to an end in 70 C.E. Look to that example. Through signs Jesus gave, his disciples were able to see the signs and discern them and survive the end of the Jewish system of things. Those same signs he gave to the first century Christians are now serving as signs that all can see on a world wide display and when the end comes no one will be able to say that they didn’t see the signs.[/quote]

Hmmmm, right. And none of this sounds a bit wonky to you? With these predictions also came dates such as 1935 that came and went. The world has always been in strife, there have always been earth quakes, storms, famine and pestilence. Bad stuff happens all the time. We hear about it instantly now where in the good ol’ days you’d hear about stuff in Sri Lanka or Africa weeks or months later, now everything is instant. There is also more people now than ever before, more people, more problems. Does that mean the end is coming? No. Does it mean it’s not coming, no.
People of every generation have claimed the end is going to happen in their life time. If this keeps up, guess what? Somebody is going to be right.
Actually, if people quit trying to predict the end of the world all the time, then I’d be sure it’s coming.

All this hopping back and forth, picking up bits and pieces of scripture to fit your view seems more like a bible game than anything based in reality. It really just sounds so forced and cannot stand up to any kind of scrutiny. What gives your interpretation of Revelation anymore validity than anyone elses’? It is heavily subjective to interpretation. I think trying to claim any enlightened wisdom or claiming to understand it any better than anyone else is about as good as using tarot cards for the same purpose. And about as accurate.

Jesus said that people would be doing this, predicting the end, predicting, when he’s coming, showing signs as if it were true. He told us not to listen to people who do this. Which is what I am doing.

If the end is coming, if it happens tomorrow I just don’t care. Hell, I’d welcome it. If I perished in the process, so be it. I never thought this world was much fun any damn way. I am not going to waste a drop of sweat or a moment of worry on it. I trust in the Lord, I am far from perfect, but I try. Worrying about the end is not purposeful to me. To know one day it will happen is fine. When God chooses to do it by his own authority is the perfect time for it to happen and is fine with me.

[pat]

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
Those same signs he gave to the first century Christians are now serving as signs that all can see on a world wide display and when the end comes no one will be able to say that they didn’t see the signs.[/quote]

I hope this is quoted by you mse2us. I hate it when I mess up a quote.

You will take the signs that Jesus passed on to the first century church, but you will not take the teachings Jesus passed on to the first century church? This seems a bit selective by you. Please do not pick and choose what you want to believe. You have to take the whole thing.[/quote]
D, none of those teaching were taught in the first century. Secular history states this as well as the Catholic Encyclopedia which is the group that made the trinity an official doctrine. JW’s pattern themselves after the first century Christian congregation and things such as using images in worship, such as the cross and statues, the immortality of the soul and the trinity teaching was no where to found in the christian congregation of the first century. Again, show me were Jesus teaches that he is God, that the soul survives after death and that the instrument used to kill Jesus should be held in high regard and prayed to.[/quote]

The first century Christians were a motley crew. Disorganized and simply just trying to get on their feet. The bible is not a history book, you can only know so much about 1rst century Christians from the bible.

I also find it interesting that you mentioned the Catholic Encyclopedia as an authoritative source, even if you are taking you quotes out of context. That is something to think and ponder. If you consider Catholicism as invalid and a perversion, how then can you use it as a source for anything?

Lastly, the fact of the matter is the the Trinity was officially recognized as the universal truth BEFORE the bible was assembled. Are you going to tell me, that the Counsel of Nicea is false but the Synod of Carthage was true? Are you going to tell me that the Trinity doctrine is false but a full generation passes before we have the Bible and that true? Are you telling me that God was with the people at Carthage, but he abandoned them in Nicea?

Lastly, Lastly, what was wrong with scripture that JW’s felt they had to rewrite it to change it’s meaning. By whose authority is this done?

[honest_lifter]

Syria, Aleppo - 1138
Earthquake kills 230,000 people

Japan, 1181
A famine wipes out at least 100,000 people.

Egypt and Syria, 1201
The deadliest earthquake in history hit the eastern Mediterranean in July 1201. Approximately 1.1 million people were killed, mostly in Egypt and Syria. This makes it close to one of the ten worst natural disasters in recorded history.

Netherlands, 1228
Estimate: 100,000 lives lost from the flooding after some dykes broke.

Netherlands, 1287
The Zuider Zee flooded after a seawall callapsed. At least 50,000 people were killed in Holland and more than 500 in England as a result.

China, 1290
Earthquake takes at least 100,000 people.

Most of Europe and beyond, 1347-1350
Approximately 25 million lost their lives through the “Black Death” - the bubonic plague. Between 25 and 33% of the entire population of Europe at that time, plus millions in Asia and North Africa lost their lives.

China, 1556
Earthquake in Shansi, China kills about 830,000

China, 1642
Flooding takes about 300,000 lives.

Spain, 1649
Plague takes about 80,000 lives in Seville.

Western Hemisphere, mostly 16th - 18th centuries
Untold millions of lives of American Indians were lost through the various sicknesses brought over from Europe (to which they had no previous exposure or resistance.) It’s very difficult to get figures on this that are not politically infected one way or another (very high or very low).

China, 1556
The second deadliest earthquake was in the Chinese province of Shaanzi on February 2, 1556. It killed 830,000 people.

England, 1665
More than 100,000 lives were taken by the plague, London was worst hit.

Japan, 1730
Earthquake took the lives of some 137,000 people.

India, 1737
First it was thought to be an earthquake, but more recent scientific studies have re-classified it as a typhoon - this tragedy killed some 300,000 in Calcutta.

Portugal, 1755
Over 100,000 lost their lives through “the Lisbon earthquake” and resulting tsunami.

India, 1769
About ten million people lost their lives from a famine in Bengal.

North America, 1775-82
Smallpox takes around 130,000 lives.

Iran, 1780
As many as 200,000 were killed in an earthquake near Tabriz.

Iceland, 1783
a volcanic eruption (that included the largest basalt flow in recorded history) poisoned the island’s pastures and caused the starvation of about 25% of the population - 30,000+.

Indonesia, 1815
Mount Tambora (volcano) on Sumbawa Island released about 50 cubic kilometers of magma over at least 500,000 square kilometers of Indonesia and the Java Sea. That eruption and the resulting tsunami took at least 10,000 lives. But the famine and disease that followed took another 82,000 lives - total: over 90,000.

Japan, 1826
Tsunami kills about 27,000.

Ireland, 1845 - 48
“Potato Famine” takes at least a million lives.

France, Germany, America, etc., 1870
approximately 500,000 lives lost as a result of smallpox.

China, 1876 - 1879
The deadliest drought in recorded history was in China between 1876 and 1879. Rivers were dry, so most crops and livestock died. There was no food production in a 1-million km2 area of 9 provinces. The drought caused the death of an estimated nine million people.

Java and Sumatra, 1883
Krakatoa, a small volcano on an uninhabited island between Sumatra and Java (Indonesia), erupted with such fury it could be heard in Australia nearly 5,000 kilometers away. The tsunami that followed took about 50,000 lives.

China, 1887
The worst flood in “modern history” happened in China in 1887. The Yellow River overflowed, causing the death of about 900,000 people. (Some reports say it was a million that parished.)

Japan, 1896
About 28,000 people lost their lives from a Tsunami

Caribbean, 1902
Martinique, a small French colony in the Caribbean, has a volcano “Mont Pelee” which unleashed its fury and wiped out the town of St. Pierre. Only one survivor - pictured on right: a prisoner in a basement cell. (There’s a good chance he got his life right with God before that day was over!) But there were actually two others who also survived. see their amazing stories Around 30,000 people were killed.

Italy, 1908
An earthquake of 7.2 magnitute and the tidal wave that resulted, destroyed several southernmost Italian cities and towns and approximately 123,000 people.

China, 1911
Yangtze River flood - approx: 100,000 deaths.

Italy, 1915
Avezzano, Italy - 7.5 earthyquake takes nearly 30,000 lives.

World-wide, 1918 - 19
Influenza pandemic takes somewhere between 35 million and 75 million lives (some reports estimate around a hundred million, but those can’t be confirmed) - at least 16 million people died in India alone. This is clearly the worst disaster - at least in the last thousand years.

China, 1920
In the north China there was a drought that caused 20 million victims and took at least 500,00 lives.

China, Gansu - 1920
Gansu, China is hit with an earthquake measuring 8.6 and kills around 200,000 people.

Japan, 1923
A third of Tokyo is destroyed and much of Yokohama in an 8.3 earthquake which between 140,000 and 200,000 people.

China, 1927
An earthquake 7.9 - hit Nanshan City and took about 200,000 people.

China, 1931
A flood on the Changjiang River took at least 145,000 people (other estimates go over a million, but we have not confirmed that).

China, 1932
Another earthquake, this one northwest Gansu Province, killed about 70,000 people.

China, 1935
Another Yellow River flood “caused 27 counties inundated and 3.4 million victims”. How many actual lives were killed we don’t know. If you have facts, let us hear from you

China, 1933
Another Changjiang River flood takes the lives of at least 140,000 people.

Pakistan, 1935
About 30,000 lost their lives in a 7.5 earthquake.

Chile, 1939
Some 28,000 people were killed from an 8.3 earthquake in Chile.

China, 1939
A flood takes about 200,000 lives.

Turkey, 1939
More than 32,000 lives were lost from a 7.9 quake in Erzican Province.

China, 1942 - 1943
A drought in the Henan province took the lives of more than a million people.

Turkmenistan (USSR), 1948
A 7.3 earthquake took over 110,000 lives.

India, 1950
Around 30,000 people lost their lives in a quake of 8.6 magnitude in Assam, India.

World-wide, 1957
At least a hundred thousand people (some reports say over a million) died from the “Asian Flu” - about 70,000 in the USA alone.

China, 1958 - 61
As many as 20 million people died in this famine. *

• We received the following response to this post
  Sirs: I would ask that you consider re-characterizing the 20-30 million who died in China during the period 1959-61 as a political blunder rather than a famine. Famines are typically understood to be the result of diminished food production due to weather or other natural disasters. This was not the case in China. Food production was for the most part normal during this period. What changed was the desire of local cadre wanting to look good and reporting increased food production following Mao’s politics of “right” practices. Mao’s government simply took their share of the harvest, 50%. But since the reported harvest was in fact inflated, what resulted was the entire production being shipped to Beijing. This more accurately could be labeled Mao’s Holocaust. Respectfully,Doug Searles

Peru, 1970
A 7.9 earthquake and resulting landslides killed about 66,000 in Northern Peru.

19 - Bangladesh, 1970
In 1970, a cyclone and related floods killed about 500,000 people. With winds of up to 230 km/h, the cyclone crashed into the heavily populated coastal area of the Bay of Bengal, where several river deltas normally provide fertile land. The terrible winds produced massive waves, which wiped out many entire villages. Millions of people were left homeless in this country that is one of the most densely populated and one of the poorest in the world.

Vietnam, 1971
Red River flood flood leaves about 100,000 dead.

China, Tangshan - 1976
The worst earthquake damage in modern times was in northeast China in 1976. It was July 28 when a massive quake, measuring 8.3 on the Richter scale, shook the industrial mining city of Tangshan. Officially 255,000 people died, and another 164,000 were severely injured. But others (unofficial, but perhaps more accurate?) estimate that about 655,000 perished. Some ninety per cent of the buildings were destroyed. It took at least ten years and massive investment to rebuild the city.

Africa, 1981 - 1984
Rivers and lakes dried up from the drought that had incredible impact on twenty African nations. During one season about 20,000 were starving to death EACH MONTH. 150 million were facing starvation if help didn’t come right away. People from around the world began to respond to this crisis - but for hundreds of thousands of people, it was too late. (If you have figures for this, please let us know. When combined with other relatively recent African famines, the fugure is well over 1,000,000)

Colombia, 1985
Volcano Nevado Del Ruiz claimed the lives of at least 25,000 - mostly from the mudflow which resulted from the volcanic eruption.

Armenia, 1988
An earthquake measuring 6.9 on the Richter scale devastated Armenia in 1988. At that time Armenia was a republic of the Soviet Union. The town of Spitak was destroyed and it took the lives of all of its residents. In Leninakan,Armenia’s second largest city, eighty per cent of the buildings collapsed, and over 100,000 people perished there.

Iran, 1990
a 7.7 earthquake in northwest Iran killed at least 50,000 people.

Bangladesh, 1991
Flooding again took its toll on this nation. About 139,000 lost their lives.

North Korea, 1995-98
Over 3 million are said to have died from famine and floods in North Korea.

West Africa, 1996
About 25,000 loose their lives from a meningites outbreak.

Iran, 2003
Earthquake in Bam, Iran, officially kills 26,271 people.

12 South Asian Nations, 2004 - 2005
Earthquake of 9.0 and the resulting tsunami creates one of the world’s worst disasters. It does major damage to: Indonesia, India, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Malaysia, Myanmar, the Maldives, Somalia, Tanzania, Seychelles, Bangladesh, and Andaman. Deaths: Between 235,000 and 285,000.

South Asia, 2005
Earthquake, primarily affecting Pakistan, but also India and Afganistan. Current figures: over 50,000 dead.

Haiti, 2010
Earthquate - still counting. Most estimates now exceed 220,000 dead.

[IrishSteel]

thank honest - but all you’re doing is proving the very point I want to make and that is that wars, plagues, famines and earthquakes are all a constant of human experience on earth - they have occurred since the fall and will continue to occur - so the signs of Christ’s return are applicable in all times and in all place - therefore to use the appearance of signs as proof of something can be made at any time.

To say that something changed in 1914 based on these types of events is ludicrous on its face, because it is just the continuation of the same old same old . . . Christ’s VISIBLE return is an imminent event - it can happen at any time and the only signs of his return will be that continuation of events that already occur.

[honest_lifter]

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
thank honest - but all you’re doing is proving the very point I want to make and that is that wars, plagues, famines and earthquakes are all a constant of human experience on earth - they have occurred since the fall and will continue to occur - so the signs of Christ’s return are applicable in all times and in all place - therefore to use the appearance of signs as proof of something can be made at any time. To say that something changed in 1914 based on these types of events is ludicrous on its face, because it is just the continuation of the same old same old . . . Christ’s VISIBLE return is an imminent event - it can happen at any time and the only signs of his return will be that continuation of events that already occur.

[/quote]

Sure, if you want to look at it that way. No one is forcing you to admit anything. The best anyone can do is present data.

What you are saying is exactly what the Bible said people would say.

2 Peter 3:4
They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Of the entire earth only 8 made it through the flood. 8 people. No one outside of Noah’s immediate family listened to his warnings. Jesus said that these days would be like Noah’s. None of the resistance here surprises me.

[pat]

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
thank honest - but all you’re doing is proving the very point I want to make and that is that wars, plagues, famines and earthquakes are all a constant of human experience on earth - they have occurred since the fall and will continue to occur - so the signs of Christ’s return are applicable in all times and in all place - therefore to use the appearance of signs as proof of something can be made at any time. To say that something changed in 1914 based on these types of events is ludicrous on its face, because it is just the continuation of the same old same old . . . Christ’s VISIBLE return is an imminent event - it can happen at any time and the only signs of his return will be that continuation of events that already occur.

[/quote]

Sure, if you want to look at it that way. No one is forcing you to admit anything. The best anyone can do is present data.

What you are saying is exactly what the Bible said people would say.

2 Peter 3:4
They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Of the entire earth only 8 made it through the flood. 8 people. No one outside of Noah’s immediate family listened to his warnings. Jesus said that these days would be like Noah’s. None of the resistance here surprises me.[/quote]

AND what you are saying is exactly what Jesus said people would say…“The end is near!” He said not to listen to them.
Mt 24:24-28