[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]mse2us wrote:
One thing I can say for certain is the fact that the scriptural evidence in the Bible is so strong and the signs that all can see with their own eyes are so clear which all point to 1914 being the year Jesus became king in heaven, when Satan was kicked out of heaven, when Jesus presence started and when the last days began.
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I dont know about you guys, but I beleive that Jesus has been king in heaven forever. How do I know this? In the begining God created the Heavens and the Earth. God is on the throne in Genesis, and God is on the throne in Revelation. Never was God not on the throne. He is King in Heaven and King of Earth.
Got one more thought of questions for the JWs. If the end of days started in 1914 when will Jesus be returning? I mean if you know when he started to reign in heaven when will he reign on Earth? When will your prophesy, made after the year 1914, be discredited, or are your prophesies the same as a fortune teller? So vague that when Jesus returns you will say, “See we were right.” We had 1000 years past 1914 for the prophesy to be correct, but when 2914 comes around and he has not returned would you then agree the JWs are full or crap, or will the prophecy be changed again?
Just had a thought. Jesus died late Friday afternoon, was burried before night fall on Friday, dead all day Saturday, and rose on Sunday Morning. As we all know he was not dead for 3, 24 hour periods, but was dead for 3 days, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Maybe that Jesus started to reign in heaven in 1914 the millenium reign may have ended at the turn of the millenium in the year 2000. Not a full 1000 years, but a millenium that started in 1000 AD. I would say your prophesy of 1914 is false based on these assumptions. Got a new prophesy?[/quote]
No Jesus has not been king in heaven forever. The Bible clearly shows that Jesus is given the kingship in heaven. Ezekiel 21:26,27 is a prophecy which states that the crown will be removed from a wicked King which turned out to be Zedekiah. The prophecy then states that the crown will be given to the one who comes and has the legal right. King Zedekiah was the last king in the line of David to sit on God’s throne. Jesus as a descendant of David is the one who has the legal right. Isaiah 9:6 states:
“6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.”
That prophecy makes it clear that Jesus will sit on the throne of King David which has been vacant since King Zedekiah was removed by the Babylonians. Daniel 7:12, 13 show a scene in heaven where Jesus aproaches Jehovah and is given a kingdom. Daniel 7:13,14 states:
13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.”
Again, this is Jesus approaching God and God gives him the kingdom just like God gave King David his kingship.
Revelation, which is a future vision describes a battle in heaven where Satan is kicked out of heaven and thrown down to the earth. After that event God’s Kingdom is officially announced with Jesus having authority over this kingdom which means he is king.
Revelation 12:7-10 states:
“7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!”
This is when Jesus becomes king in heaven which is after Satan gets kicked out of heaven. Once Satan is kicked out of heaven this spells WOE for the people of the earth according to Revelation 12:12. Remember this is a future vision that was given to John and when he writes Revelation the above events did not yet happen.
So no Jesus has not been king in heaven forever.[/quote]
So I am assuming you think the time in heaven is the same as “Earth time”? Why would God be Pigeon holed to our calendar?[/quote]
No, the time in heaven is not the same as time on earth. There are two places in the Bible that mention how long one day is for God. 2 Peter 3:8 which states that “one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.” And Psalms 90:4 states “that for a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past.”
So in God’s time 1000 humans years is one day but the scriptures I mentioned in my previous post do not reference any specific time period but Isaiah 9:6 does state that Jesus will sit upon the throne of David. So we know that when David was king Jesus was not king over God’s Kingdom. There were 19 Kings in the line of David from the tribe of Judah that sat on the Davidic throne spanning at least four centuries. The last king in the line of David was Zedekiah and as Ezekiel 21:26,27 states the crown or kingship is removed from him and is given to he who the legal right which is Jesus. This happened in 607 B.C.E. So the Davidic throne in the line of David from the tribe of Judah would remain vacant until Jesus who is a descendant of David sits on the throne and becomes king.
How do we know that it happened in 1914? First, the Bible Students in the 1800’s used the prophecy in Daniel 4:10-16 about a kingship represented by a tree being cut down and restrained for seven times to interpret when the trampling by the nations on Jerusalem would end which Jesus mentions at Luke 21:24. They realized that the trampling started in
607 B.C.E. when Jersalem was destroyed by the Babylonians and the last Davidic king was removed. This took them to 1914. Second, Revelation 12:10 states that as a result of Satan being kicked out of heaven, God’s kingdom comes into power with Jesus as it’s king. At Revelation 12:12 as a result of Satan being kicked out of heaven and thrown down to earth the verse states that he will cause “WOE” to the people of the earth. We can clearly see the results of Satans anger. Because the first WOE Satan causes is WAR which was a world war that never occurred before. If you look at the four horsemen of the apocalypse at Revelation 6, the first rider in white is given a crown or kingship, he has a bow and he goes forth to complete a conquest. This horseman is the newly crowned Jesus. The next horseman that rides after the newly crowned Jesus and continues to ride with Jesus is war. The first sign Jesus said would mark his presence and the conclusion of the system of things mentioned at Matthew 24:3 is War. This is the start of the WOE Satan brings to the earth because of him being kicked out of heaven which is marked by a clear, discernable event. The other two horsemen that ride with the newly crowned Jesus at Revelation 6 are famine and pestilence which again is more WOE that Satan brings on the earth. So when Jesus becomes king he kicks Satan out of heaven down to the earth. As a result of Satan being kicked out of heaven he is angry because he knows his time is short so he causes trouble for the people on the earth. Some of the problems Satan causes are symbolized by horsemen who appear after Jesus becomes king and ride with Jesus for a period of time. They are War, Famine and Pestilence. This is the reason Jesus is riding alongside 3 bad horsemen. These three bad horsemen that ride alongside the newly crowned Jesus is a result of Satan causing WOE to the earth and the WOE comes in the form of WAR, FAMINE and PESTILENCE. These are also three of the signs Jesus mentions at Matthew 24:3-7 and Luke 21:10,11 that would mark his parousia or presence and the conclusion of the system of things.
So again, the significance of 1914 is when Jesus became king in heaven, which was when Satan got kicked out of heaven down to the earth and when Jesus presence and the conclusion of the system of things started. Due to Satan having great anger because he knows his time is short, he causes WOE or trouble for the people of the earth. The WOE or trouble comes in the form of WAR, FAMINE and PESTILENCE which Jesus told his disciples would be some of the signs that would identify his presence in heaven as king and the conclusion of the system of things. All of this is based on the Bible and the Bible only.
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Ugh, that was actually painful to read to be honest… This is what Irish referred to as tortured logic. You want to know when Satan came to the Earth? It was the day sin aka, evil entered the world. Who do you think tempted Eve in the garden? What planet was it, Mars?
Jesus revealed his kingship in the gospels talking to Pilate. “If my kingdom was of this world…” He is speaking present tense and if I am not mistaken the Crucifixion of Christ occurred between 29 AD and 33 AD, not 1914. Since he said this plainly at that time it stands to reason that a direct saying would trump a warping of Daniel or Revelation.
I am also very weary of anybody who claims to have detailed knowledge of the goings on in heavenâ?¦We donâ??t even have a good grasp of earthly happenings, how in the hell are we supposed to know what goes on in heaven.
Now if you are biblical literalists, like you claim, then you will know that the time of the end times, Armageddon, or what ever you call it is NOT in the Bible. When Jesus said that nobody knows the day or the hour save for the Father, that means nobody knows and nobody can know. Itâ??s not knowable. â?? MT 24:36 and MT 24:42 Further, Jesus warns of those who claim to know and calls them false prophets.
So, if nobody, but the Father knows when the end times are, why then, should I trust your interpretation? Are you not playing the role of the false prophet but saying, this has occurred and that is coming? When Jesus says you cannot know and it will come when you least expect it, should I trust his words, or your interpretation. Should I listen to you or the word of God?
You are making bold claims of knowledge so these are not unreasonable questions. You are claiming to know that which Jesus said canâ??t be known and only false prophets would claim knowledge of…
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I can completely understand coming from your perspective that this seems like a twisting of the scriptures because it is unlike anything you have heard but let me try to clarify some of the points you made.
Yes, Satan did have access to earth, he was actually a cherub who’s was assigned to watch over the garden of Eden. Even after he went against God and played a part in the downfall of the human race he still had access to both heaven and earth. We can see this in the book of Job at Job 1:6,7:
"6 Now it came to be the day when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them. 7 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where do you come from?” At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.”
The events in Job occurred at least 1000 years after the events in the garden of eden but yet Satan was still allowed in heaven and he had access to earth. Can you see the way the verse states this? It says “even Satan proceeded to enter” before God. You’re not understanding what I’m saying when I say that Satan was kicked out of heaven and thrown down to the earth in Revelation 12:7-12. Never did I say that when this happened this was the first time Satan had access to earth. Revelation 12:7-12, which is a vision of the future, states that “neither was a place found for them in heaven” so once Satan and his demons were kicked out of heaven they no longer had access to heaven, meaning that what Satan did in Job 1:6,7 which was to take his position before God, Satan could no longer do that.
Now is that twisted tortured logic? I know I’m not the best when it comes to sentence structure and explaining things so maybe that’s why it appears to be twisted tortured logic. But the above explanation seems to be pretty clear. Are you humble enough to accept it? I don’t mean accept everything I’m saying, but for this one point are you humble enough to say “Okay, now I understand what you mean. I did not know that.” Or are you just going to put both hands over your ears and say “NO, NO, NO, NO?”
Now in regards to your other point about Jesus kingdom. No, Jesus saying to Pilate that “my kingdom is no part of the world” did not mean that his kingdom was already established. Remember the “Our Father” prayer at Matthew 6:9-11? Jesus told his followers to pray to God for his kingdom to come which means it had not yet come. Even when Jesus was in front of Pilate God’s kingdom still had not come because at Acts 1:6 as Jesus was going to heaven, Jesus’ apostles asked him if he was going to restore the kingdom to Israel at that time. They asked him that question because his kingdom had not yet come and they wrongly thought that Jesus’ kingdom was going to restore Israel to it’s former glory and remove the oppressive yoke of the Romans. Again, is that “twisted, tortured logic?”
You are absolutely right when you say that no one knows when Armageddon is going to come; not even Jesus knows, only Jehovah knows. The year 1914 is when Jesus became king in heaven, the year Satan was kicked out of heaven, and the year Jesus’s presence and the conclusion of the system of things started. Jesus’ disciples plainly asked Jesus at Matthew 24:3 “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things.” What do you think that means Pat? Jesus’ disciples asking Jesus for signs and then Jesus giving the signs means that his disciples would be able to recognize when his presence started and when the conclusion of the system of things started. Through those signs they would be able to identify the specific time period they were in. Jesus parousia or presence which most Bibles translate as “coming” is not when Armageddon is going to start. How do we know that for a fact. It’s because when Jesus comes, which is when people will see Jesus, Armageddon will start and many people will be destroyed. When that event happens you will not need signs to identify this because it will be clear. But according to Matthew 24:3 Jesus’ parousia or presence and the conclusion of the system of things would be identifiable by signs which means that it would not be easy to discern and people will have to pay attention to the signs Jesus gavein order to identify Jesus’ presence and the conclusion of the system of things. Further proof that Jesus’ parousia or presence which most bibles translate as coming is going to be a period of time rather than armageddon is at Matthew 24:37-39 which states:
“37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”
Can you see Pat? Jesus presence or coming is compared to the days before the flood - not the flood event. When Jesus comes, which is when Armageddon starts, this is comparable to the flood event but Jesus says that his presence will be like the days before the flood leading up to the flood event. It took Noah and his family 50-60 years to build the ark which was the days before the flood. So Jesus presence is going to be a period of time called the conclusion of the system of things or last days that will lead up to the flood event. This time period would be discernible through the signs Jesus told his disciples to look for at Matthew 24:3-14. So again, we do not know when armageddon is going to come only God know this.
Pat, when you use words like “Ugh” or “tortured logic” you need to thoroughly examine the Bible before you make statements like that. Because it is obvious that you do not know. You don’t know about what happened to Satan in Revelation 12, you don’t know about God’s kingdom and you don’t know that the last days can be identified by the signs Jesus gave. I apologize if my post are too long and they appear to be “torture” to read but I do that so I can thoroughly explain a point like I did with the above points. It’s just sad that this information in the Bible is not taught and is so different to people that it is “tortured logic” to many.
