[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
OK, to answer your question, I am going to ask some viewpoint questions. First one, what does verse 4 of Hebrews Chapter 1 tell you? - Important for context of your verse.[/quote]
Sorry but no it does not go towards context.
When did God ever tell an angel to sit at the right hand of the Father? No context only the question.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
OK, to answer your question, I am going to ask some viewpoint questions. First one, what does verse 4 of Hebrews Chapter 1 tell you? - Important for context of your verse.[/quote]
Sorry but no it does not go towards context.
When did God ever tell an angel to sit at the right hand of the Father? No context only the question.[/quote]
Then you are not looking for the answer, because you need context.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Here is my question that I have been asking now for 3 total threads and asked it about 7-8 times. First scripture reference for all to see.
Hebrews 1:13
which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”[h]?
If there are 3 spirit beings, demons/fallen angels, angels, and God in Heaven. What/Who is Jesus? .[/quote]
What is the difference between fallen angels and angels? You classified them each as a type of spirit being. Why?
BTW, I am answering your question. I am finding out how you are viewing things.
[/quote]
Are you playing dumb again? Fallen angels are demons, angels decieved by Satan/Lucifer/Beelzebub. I always have to include all the different definitions because you guys do not say God you call him Jehovah, you guys do not call the Holy Spirit as such but Jehovah’s Active Force, I like that name by the way, and finally Jesus is the Arch-Angel Michael by your assertions. Second Angels are ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation. This is found in verse 14. Are there any other spirit beings that I have forgotten?
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
OK, to answer your question, I am going to ask some viewpoint questions. First one, what does verse 4 of Hebrews Chapter 1 tell you? - Important for context of your verse.[/quote]
Sorry but no it does not go towards context.
When did God ever tell an angel to sit at the right hand of the Father? No context only the question.[/quote]
Then you are not looking for the answer, because you need context.[/quote]
Here is your Context. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus is the Arch- Angel Michael. If this is so then what does verse 13 mean? I have now given you the context of the verse.
Jesus says specifically “I and the Father are one” and “The Father is in me and I in the Father.” It would be very hard to separate the two if Jesus was one with the Father.
[quote]BBriere wrote:
Jesus says specifically “I and the Father are one” and “The Father is in me and I in the Father.” It would be very hard to separate the two if Jesus was one with the Father. [/quote]
I believe in the Trinity, but just to seasoning the pot.
How does the concept of the trinity not violate the law of non-contradiction?
D, here is the full chapter: (points of interest are in italics)
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father[a]”[b]? Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”[c]? 6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[d] 7In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire.”[e] 8But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[f] 10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[g] 13To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”[h]? 14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
You see, D, that those highlight portions, specifically vs. 4, shows that Jesus was higher than the angels because of the name and position that he was given. With that context in mind, the idea that Paul differentiated between Jesus and a regular angel was clear to the audience. Thus, he said it the way he did to show emphasis on Jesus position. Yes, Jesus is still an angel. He is the archangel, foremost angel. But that is a title, just like Prince of Peace, Mighty God, etc. all given to Jesus.
[quote]haney1 wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
Jesus says specifically “I and the Father are one” and “The Father is in me and I in the Father.” It would be very hard to separate the two if Jesus was one with the Father. [/quote]
I believe in the Trinity, but just to seasoning the pot.
How does the concept of the trinity not violate the law of non-contradiction?[/quote]
Not sure, can explain the law a little more?
I always thought the Catholics were good at comparing the Trinity to a clover. You have three distinct leaves on a clover, but they are all part of the clover. You cannot remove one leaf and still have a full clover. No leaf is superior to the others.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
D, here is the full chapter: (points of interest are in italics)
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father[a]”[b]? Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”[c]? 6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[d] 7In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire.”[e] 8But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[f] 10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[g] 13To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”[h]? 14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
You see, D, that those highlight portions, specifically vs. 4, shows that Jesus was higher than the angels because of the name and position that he was given. With that context in mind, the idea that Paul differentiated between Jesus and a regular angel was clear to the audience. Thus, he said it the way he did to show emphasis on Jesus position. Yes, Jesus is still an angel. He is the archangel, foremost angel. But that is a title, just like Prince of Peace, Mighty God, etc. all given to Jesus. [/quote]
So Jesus is the highest angel there is. Ok, again your assertion does not change the context of my question of verse 13. So when did God ever tell an angel to sit at his right hand? God never said to an angel sit at my righ hand. This is the entire message of Hebrews 1. Jesus is divine and is God.
By the way the people he was speaking to knows that Jesus is God, so do not try and twist his words.
Jesus is also called Lord of lords, King of Kings, Emanuel God with us. I like that name Emanuel. God with us. God is with us in Jesus Christ. He is God.
[quote]BBriere wrote:
Jesus says specifically “I and the Father are one” and “The Father is in me and I in the Father.” It would be very hard to separate the two if Jesus was one with the Father. [/quote]
Yes! it would be hard to separate Jesus and God if they were “one” in flesh.
Please notice a similar use of the phrasing, and notice the way Jesus says it:
John 17:11 (NIV
“I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.”
On a practical point, how could someone ‘come’ to someone else if they were the same person?
Also, notice the end of the verse where Jesus prays that his disciples become ‘one’ just like Jesus and His Father are ‘one’.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
So Jesus is the highest angel there is. Ok, again your assertion does not change the context of my question of verse 13. So when did God ever tell an angel to sit at his right hand? God never said to an angel sit at my righ hand. This is the entire message of Hebrews 1. Jesus is divine and is God.
By the way the people he was speaking to knows that Jesus is God, so do not try and twist his words.
Jesus is also called Lord of lords, King of Kings, Emanuel God with us. I like that name Emanuel. God with us. God is with us in Jesus Christ. He is God.[/quote]
OK, so who did God ask to sit at His right hand then?
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
So Jesus is the highest angel there is. Ok, again your assertion does not change the context of my question of verse 13. So when did God ever tell an angel to sit at his right hand? God never said to an angel sit at my righ hand. This is the entire message of Hebrews 1. Jesus is divine and is God.
By the way the people he was speaking to knows that Jesus is God, so do not try and twist his words.
Jesus is also called Lord of lords, King of Kings, Emanuel God with us. I like that name Emanuel. God with us. God is with us in Jesus Christ. He is God.[/quote]
OK, so who did God ask to sit at His right hand then?
[quote]BBriere wrote:
[quote]haney1 wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
Jesus says specifically “I and the Father are one” and “The Father is in me and I in the Father.” It would be very hard to separate the two if Jesus was one with the Father. [/quote]
I believe in the Trinity, but just to seasoning the pot.
How does the concept of the trinity not violate the law of non-contradiction?[/quote]
Not sure, can explain the law a little more?[/quote]
ok here is an example we say God is three in one correct?
so the law of non-contradictions would make this idea irrational if we say it like this
God is one in person and three in person
or A is one and A is three in one
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
Jesus says specifically “I and the Father are one” and “The Father is in me and I in the Father.” It would be very hard to separate the two if Jesus was one with the Father. [/quote]
Yes! it would be hard to separate Jesus and God if they were “one” in flesh.
Please notice a similar use of the phrasing, and notice the way Jesus says it:
John 17:11 (NIV
“I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.”
On a practical point, how could someone ‘come’ to someone else if they were the same person?
Also, notice the end of the verse where Jesus prays that his disciples become ‘one’ just like Jesus and His Father are ‘one’.
[/quote]
not to nit pick, but I don’t know of many trinitarians that would attribute this verse to Jesus saying He and the Father are “one” flesh, they would attribute them to being one in essence.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
With that context in mind, the idea that Paul differentiated between Jesus and a regular angel was clear to the audience. [/quote]
You know who wrote the book of Hebrews? I am impressed. 
/jp
honest_lifter wrote:
BBriere wrote:
Jesus says specifically “I and the Father are one” and “The Father is in me and I in the Father.” It would be very hard to separate the two if Jesus was one with the Father.
Yes! it would be hard to separate Jesus and God if they were “one” in flesh.
Please notice a similar use of the phrasing, and notice the way Jesus says it:
John 17:11 (NIV
“I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.”
On a practical point, how could someone ‘come’ to someone else if they were the same person?
Also, notice the end of the verse where Jesus prays that his disciples become ‘one’ just like Jesus and His Father are ‘one’.
not to nit pick, but I don’t know of many trinitarians that would attribute this verse to Jesus saying He and the Father are “one” flesh, they would attribute them to being one in essence.
You mean won’t use the verse I used? Or the verse BBriere used?
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
This speaks for me…[/quote]
Now, because we are really going to delve into the Trinity, I have my first question for you.
The article used, ‘only-begotten’. What does that mean?[/quote]
Only one that comes from directly.[/quote]
Exactly - only begotten - only one born from - the rest of us are the adopted children of God through salvation purchased by the only begotten one.
[/quote]
Exactly! So what does that ultimately mean to you?[/quote]
Don’t lead me, get to the point.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
honest_lifter wrote:
BBriere wrote:
Jesus says specifically “I and the Father are one” and “The Father is in me and I in the Father.” It would be very hard to separate the two if Jesus was one with the Father.
Yes! it would be hard to separate Jesus and God if they were “one” in flesh.
Please notice a similar use of the phrasing, and notice the way Jesus says it:
John 17:11 (NIV
“I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.”
On a practical point, how could someone ‘come’ to someone else if they were the same person?
Also, notice the end of the verse where Jesus prays that his disciples become ‘one’ just like Jesus and His Father are ‘one’.
not to nit pick, but I don’t know of many trinitarians that would attribute this verse to Jesus saying He and the Father are “one” flesh, they would attribute them to being one in essence.
You mean won’t use the verse I used? Or the verse BBriere used?[/quote]
No I mean won’t use the phrase you used
“it would be hard to separate Jesus and God if they were “one” in flesh.”
No trinitarian that I know of attributes the God head to having flesh. So in that verse there is no claim to them being the same flesh. We do conclude that they are the same essence.
my nit picking on your phrase is because that is not an accurate depiction of our belief, and that makes a very big difference in this conversation.
Here’s my points on the divinity of Jesus:
The OT prophesied a DIVINE Messiah: The Jews knew that the coming Messiah was GOD himself:
biblical passages include several Messianic Psalms - Psalm 2, Psalm 110 for examples. Isaih 7:14 gives the name of the Messiah as Immanueal = GOD WITH US. Isaiah 9:6 is a messianic prophecy declaring the deity of the Messiah “wonderful counselor, mighty God”. Micah 5:2 established that the Messiah existed since eternity (a Divine trait)
Jesus is called Jehovah - and I’ll just use LORD and not Lord for the JW’s sake: Psalm 23:1 - Jehovah is my Shepherd links to John 10:11 where Jesus calls himslef the Shepherd and supported by the writer of Hebrews on hebrews 13:20 where he states " brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Jehovah". Isaiah 6:5 recounts that Jehovah was lifted up and the Apostle John says in John 12:41 that Isaiah saw Christ’s glory. Most compelling of all is Jeremiah 23: 5-6 where Jehovah declares “and this is His name by which He will be called, Jehovah our righteousness.” And the final absolutely cannot be ignored proof - Joel 2:32 “whosoever calls upon the name of Jehovah will be saved” - links to Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 where the only name we can call on for salvation is Jesus the Messiah - thus Jesus is Jehovah. (there cannot be two names, unless they are the same person).
Jesus possess all of the incommunnicable traits of God:
Eternal - Alpha and omega, beginning and the end - also see Micah 5:2
omnipresent - matthew 18:20 and matthew 28:20
omniscient - john 16:30, john 21:17, Revelation 2:23
omnipotent - Philippians 3:21, hebrews 1:3
immutable - hebrews 1:20-12, Hebrews 13:8
and finally Colossians 2:9 - for in Him all the Fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form.
Created all things - John 1:3, Colossianss 1:16 and 17
Acts as divine providence - john 17:2, Ephesians 1:22
Forgives sins - Matthew 9:2-7. Mark 2:5-10
Raises the dead and conducts final judgement - John 5:22, Acts 10:42, Acts 17:31 and 2 Timothy 4:1
now - there are two other points - the Bible declares him to be God and He claims to be God, but those points have been endlessly debated here - I think my preceeding 5 points more than establish that Jesus is the Divine Messiah and thus God