Tribulus vs. Tongkat Ali

Nutrition
21

[quote]funmetal wrote:
About all these t boosting supplements. I have yet to try one that works. I’m 30, heavy built, never had a problem gaining weight or gaining muscles. I’m more of an endomorph and a little bit of mesomorph and not by any way would I be classified as ectomorph. I develop bitch tits easily when gaining just a little bit of weight. I did blood tests once four years ago and I have normal T levels and above normal estrogen levels.

Anyway… These are my symptoms from Tribulus:

water retention
aggression
bitch tits
acne on back
MUCH less libido than normal

So it means I increase the estrogen levels more than my testosterone levels.

When I stop Tribulus:

less water retention
HUGE increase of libido
HUGE increase of general well-being

Now isn’t that fucked up?

funmetal[/quote]

If youre above normal on estrogen and normal on test, why would you be taking a test booster. Wouldnt you want to take something to help with estrogen, like zinc, DIM, or even arimidex.

Next thing is I have always wondered about these two studies on trib. The first and second ones are pretty clear. The third one requires critical thinking. So many different compounds were used that it is difficult to pinpoint what caused the increase.

Does anyone know of any other studies that I can have a look at?

The effects of Tribulus terrestris on body composition and exercise performance in resistance-trained males.Antonio J, Uelmen J, Rodriguez R, Earnest C.
Human Performance Laboratory, University of Nebraska, Kearney, NE 68849-3101, USA.

The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of the herbal preparation Tribulus terrestris (tribulus) on body composition and exercise performance in resistance-trained males. Fifteen subjects were randomly assigned to a placebo or tribulus (3.21 mg per kg body weight daily) group. Body weight, body composition, maximal strength, dietary intake, and mood states were determined before and after an 8-week exercise (periodized resistance training) and supplementation period. There were no changes in body weight, percentage fat, total body water, dietary intake, or mood states in either group. Muscle endurance (determined by the maximal number of repetitions at 100-200% of body weight) increased for the bench and leg press exercises in the placebo group (p <.05; bench press +/-28.4%, leg press +/-28.6%), while the tribulus group experienced an increase in leg press strength only (bench press +/-3.1%, not significant; leg press +/-28.6%, p <.05). Supplementation with tribulus does not enhance body composition or exercise performance in resistance-trained males.

The aphrodisiac herb Tribulus terrestris does not influence the androgen production in young men.
Neychev VK, Mitev VI.

Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Medical University, 2 Zdrave str., Sofia-1431, Bulgaria. neychev@dir.bg

OBJECTIVE: The aim of the current study is to investigate the influence of Tribulus terrestris extract on androgen metabolism in young males. DESIGN AND METHODS: Twenty-one healthy young 20-36 years old men with body weight ranging from 60 to 125 kg were randomly separated into three groups-two experimental (each n=7) and a control (placebo) one (n=7). The experimental groups were named TT1 and TT2 and the subjects were assigned to consume 20 and 10 mg/kg body weight per day of Tribulus terrestris extract, respectively, separated into three daily intakes for 4 weeks. Testosterone, androstenedione and luteinizing hormone levels in the serum were measured 24 h before supplementation (clear probe), and at 24, 72, 240, 408 and 576 h from the beginning of the supplementation. RESULTS: There was no significant difference between Tribulus terrestris supplemented groups and controls in the serum testosterone (TT1 (mean+/-S.D.: 15.75+/-1.75 nmol/l); TT2 (mean+/-S.D.: 16.32+/-1.57 nmol/l); controls (mean+/-S.D.: 17.74+/-1.09 nmol/l) (p>0.05)), androstenedione (TT1 (mean+/-S.D.: 1.927+/-0.126 ng/ml); TT2 (mean+/-S.D.: 2.026+/-0.256 ng/ml); controls (mean+/-S.D.: 1.952+/-0.236 ng/ml) (p>0.05)) or luteinizing hormone (TT1 (mean+/-S.D.: 4.662+/-0.274U/l); TT2 (mean+/-S.D.: 4.103+/-0.869U/l); controls (mean+/-S.D.: 4.170+/-0.406U/l) (p>0.05)) levels. All results were within the normal range. The findings in the current study anticipate that Tribulus terrestris steroid saponins possess neither direct nor indirect androgen-increasing properties. The study will be extended in the clarifying the probable mode of action of Tribulus terrestris steroid saponins.

Effects of androstenedione-herbal supplementation on serum sex hormone concentrations in 30- to 59-year-old men.

Brown GA, Vukovich MD, Martini ER, Kohut ML, Franke WD, Jackson DA, King DS.
Exercise Biochemistry Laboratory, Department of Health and Human Performance, Iowa State University, Ames, IA, USA.

The effectiveness of a nutritional supplement designed to enhance serum testosterone concentrations and prevent the formation of dihydrotestosterone and estrogens from the ingested androgens was investigated in healthy 30- to 59-year old men. Subjects were randomly assigned to consume DION (300 mg androstenedione, 150 mg dehydroepiandrosterone, 540 mg saw palmetto, 300 mg indole-3-carbinol, 625 mg chrysin, and 750 mg Tribulus terrestris per day; n = 28) or placebo (n = 27) for 28 days. Serum free testosterone, total testosterone, androstenedione, dihydrotestosterone, estradiol, prostate-specific antigen (PSA), and lipid concentrations were measured before and throughout the 4-week supplementation period. Serum concentrations of total testosterone and PSA were unchanged by supplementation. DION increased (p < 0.05) serum androstenedione (342%), free testosterone (38%), dihydrotestosterone (71%), and estradiol (103%) concentrations. Serum HDL-C concentrations were reduced by 5.0 mg/dL in DION (p < 0.05). Increases in serum free testosterone (r2 = 0.01), androstenedione (r2 = 0.01), dihydrotestosterone (r2 = 0.03), or estradiol (r2 = 0.07) concentrations in DION were not related to age. While the ingestion of androstenedione combined with herbal products increased serum free testosterone concentrations in older men, these herbal products did not prevent the conversion of ingested androstenedione to estradiol and dihydrotestosterone.

22

[quote]keaster wrote:
Does anyone know of any other studies that I can have a look at?
[/quote]

I dont know of other studies… I’m curious myself, but I’m about to fly out so I’m going to be largely unavailable soon.

Comments/observations regarding those 3 studies though:

Study1: Too little used to say.

Study2: fair bit used here, still a little below the doses you’d find in most popular tribulus based suppliments, but if this amount did NOTHING, thats not encouraging.

Study3: they used friggin andro! Yea andro works, just ask Mark McGuire :wink: A buddy of mine back in 2000 took this for 3 months and blew up. I moved for college so I dont know if he had any side effects, and at the time it was very new to the market so there wasnt much published on it.

It was banned in 2004 I believe. I wish I’d stocked up…

23

I hope this doesn’t tick off the Biotest/T-Nation folks too much, but I’m pretty sure it’s been shown, fairly conclusively by this point, that tribulus terrestris doesn’t raise T levels, at least not in a consistently provable manner (if at all). It might give the libido a bit of a kick, whether it’s by stimulating LH (which some think has more to do with libido than T itself) or by other methods. (Some studies have shown that it doesn’t even affect LH, so that’s not too conclusive either).

From my own experience, the first time I tried it (or any of these “T-boosting” herbs), which I think was with the first version of Alpha Male (the black, slimy-looking capsules that had just tribulus and avena sativa) my libido kicked WAAAY up. Since then, I’ve tried every version of Alpha Male that’s come along since, I’ve tried the later versions of TRIBEX (including Gold), I’ve tried RED KAT, I’ve tried RED KAT in addition to TRIBEX in addition to Vitex, I’ve tried straight Avena Stativa, Maca, etc., etc. and all kinds of combinations and permutations thereof. And I’ve always cycled off for several weeks, if not months, before trying something new.

Nothing seems to have ever given me the undeniable kick that that first bottle of the early Alpha Male did. I think I’ve come to the conclusion – partly influenced by the fact that tribulus and the like have been on the market as “T boosters” for many years now and yet there have still been NO conclusive studies proving their efficacy (and some showing a lack therof) – that: (A.) They don’t actually increase testosterone levels. (B.) They DO increase libido in some guys (which doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with an increase in T, though we understandably mistake it for that). HOWEVER, I think the body develops a tolerance to the stuff over time, and no matter how long you might cycle off for, it will never have the same effect on libido as it did the first time. Some guys seem to get more mileage over time, in terms of being able to still feel something from it after having used it for a long time or for many cycles, than others. However, at best it kicks up the libido a bit. At worst it doesn’t even do that (at least after you’ve used it enough). But – and this is just my personal (strong) hunch – I don’t think it does one iota for testosterone levels.

Have at it.

24

[quote]Damici wrote:
I hope this doesn’t tick off the Biotest/T-Nation folks too much, but I’m pretty sure it’s been shown, fairly conclusively by this point, that tribulus terrestris doesn’t raise T levels, at least not in a consistently provable manner (if at all). It might give the libido a bit of a kick, whether it’s by stimulating LH (which some think has more to do with libido than T itself) or by other methods. (Some studies have shown that it doesn’t even affect LH, so that’s not too conclusive either).

.[/quote]

I am actuallu leaning towards that idea. Most studies show trib doing dick all nothing. I have heard all the arguements that compaines make when these facts are brought up (the study used trib that was inferior to their trib, it was carried out on rats, the study design was incorrect). This begs the question, why dont companies do studies on their brand of product? Surely it’s not because of lack of funds or resources.

25

[quote]Damici wrote:
I hope this doesn’t tick off the Biotest/T-Nation folks too much, but I’m pretty sure it’s been shown, fairly conclusively by this point, that tribulus terrestris doesn’t raise T levels, at least not in a consistently provable manner (if at all).[/quote]

This might be true since there’s such a wide variability in the active content of the Tribulus found commercially. Unfortunately, most is about as potent as grass clippings.

However, all the research I’ve seen on quality Tribulus has shown it to significantly elevate T in healthy men. Personally, I’ve seen my T jump a couple hundred points while using Tribex, so I know it works on me.

26

Brian,

I’m not arguing, but I’d love to see those studies. If you have them or know of a link to them, please post them. There have certainly been many that show it does bubkus.

As for your T levels jumping by a couple hundred points, don’t read too much into that being attributed to the tribulus. A few years ago I had my blood drawn and my T-levels were around 250 total, which is kind of scarily low for a guy in his late 20’s. The doc suggested I come back a week later and get my blood drawn in the morning (first test had been in the afternoon). The result this time was 950 total T! No supplements, no T-boosters, just a different day, different time of day, maybe I had a little more sleep, etc., etc.

So a change of just a couple hundred points between two individual tests, though maybe not to be totally dismissed, doesn’t totally convince me either.

[quote]Mod Brian wrote:
Damici wrote:
I hope this doesn’t tick off the Biotest/T-Nation folks too much, but I’m pretty sure it’s been shown, fairly conclusively by this point, that tribulus terrestris doesn’t raise T levels, at least not in a consistently provable manner (if at all).

This might be true since there’s such a wide variability in the active content of the Tribulus found commercially. Unfortunately, most is about as potent as grass clippings.

However, all the research I’ve seen on quality Tribulus has shown it to significantly elevate T in healthy men. Personally, I’ve seen my T jump a couple hundred points while using TRIBEX, so I know it works on me.[/quote]

27

Trust me, I’ve been involved in enough research around here and had my blood drawn enough to know my baseline levels and changes resulting from alterations in my program. We’ve experimented with more variations of Tribulus, for various regions of the world, than I can remember. We don’t the same with the extracts in all of our products, as well as plenty of others that didn’t pan out. My observations are based on far more than using a bottle Tribex.

From reading your posts, I understand that you don’t respond to many supplements. However, it would be a poor assumption to think is the case with everyone. Sure, there are bogus products and outright scams which don’t benefit anyone, but I’ve seen to many guys, including myself, benefit from Tribulus first hand to discount it just because someone else may not.

28

I don’t doubt for a second that Biotest probably sells THE highest quality tribulus on the market. I believe that wholeheartedly.

I also believe, however, that if there was more than one (or even one) convincing, well-performed study showing that tribulus clearly elevated T levels, that people all over the net, in every full-page ad in the muscle mags, etc., would be citing it to high heaven. However, I for one haven’t seen these multiple studies. I’ve seen, I think, one study that seemed semi-convincing in favor of trib, but have however seen several that seemed to show pretty convincingly that It did nada.

I’m not trying to blow a hole in Biotest’s bow, and sorry if it comes off that way. I’m a big user of Biotest’s other products. I’m just being straightforward here.

But if you have access to studies showing its efficacy I’d love to see them. Maybe I’m wrong.

[quote]Mod Brian wrote:
Damici wrote:As for your T levels jumping by a couple hundred points, don’t read too much into that being attributed to the tribulus.

Trust me, I’ve been involved in enough research around here and had my blood drawn enough to know my baseline levels and changes resulting from alterations in my program. We’ve experimented with more variations of Tribulus, for various regions of the world, than I can remember. We don’t the same with the extracts in all of our products, as well as plenty of others that didn’t pan out. My observations are based on far more than using a bottle TRIBEX.

From reading your posts, I understand that you don’t respond to many supplements. However, it would be a poor assumption to think is the case with everyone. Sure, there are bogus products and outright scams which don’t benefit anyone, but I’ve seen to many guys, including myself, benefit from Tribulus first hand to discount it just because someone else may not.[/quote]

29

[quote]Damici wrote:
I hope this doesn’t tick off the Biotest/T-Nation folks too much, but I’m pretty sure it’s been shown, fairly conclusively by this point, that tribulus terrestris doesn’t raise T levels, at least not in a consistently provable manner (if at all). It might give the libido a bit of a kick, whether it’s by stimulating LH (which some think has more to do with libido than T itself) or by other methods. (Some studies have shown that it doesn’t even affect LH, so that’s not too conclusive either).

From my own experience, the first time I tried it (or any of these “T-boosting” herbs), which I think was with the first version of Alpha Male (the black, slimy-looking capsules that had just tribulus and avena sativa) my libido kicked WAAAY up. Since then, I’ve tried every version of Alpha Male that’s come along since, I’ve tried the later versions of TRIBEX (including Gold), I’ve tried RED KAT, I’ve tried RED KAT in addition to TRIBEX in addition to Vitex, I’ve tried straight Avena Stativa, Maca, etc., etc. and all kinds of combinations and permutations thereof. And I’ve always cycled off for several weeks, if not months, before trying something new.

Nothing seems to have ever given me the undeniable kick that that first bottle of the early Alpha Male did. I think I’ve come to the conclusion – partly influenced by the fact that tribulus and the like have been on the market as “T boosters” for many years now and yet there have still been NO conclusive studies proving their efficacy (and some showing a lack therof) – that: (A.) They don’t actually increase testosterone levels. (B.) They DO increase libido in some guys (which doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with an increase in T, though we understandably mistake it for that). HOWEVER, I think the body develops a tolerance to the stuff over time, and no matter how long you might cycle off for, it will never have the same effect on libido as it did the first time. Some guys seem to get more mileage over time, in terms of being able to still feel something from it after having used it for a long time or for many cycles, than others. However, at best it kicks up the libido a bit. At worst it doesn’t even do that (at least after you’ve used it enough). But – and this is just my personal (strong) hunch – I don’t think it does one iota for testosterone levels.

Have at it.[/quote]

I’ve experienced the same as You! When I first took Tongkat Ali my libido skyroketed for 2 days and then like it never happened! The guys promoting the stuff quoted all these amazing experiences! Check out this guy…,Serge kreutz’s website on Tongkat Ali! (I think that’s the way it’s spelt??) You’ll see what I mean!

Any way… Isn’t there anything I can take to boost Libido! I’d love to feel like I’m 20 yrs old again in that department…I don’t have any disfunctions as such…I just want to feel younger in the Libido dept!

Lucky

30

[quote]Mod Brian wrote:
Damici wrote:As for your T levels jumping by a couple hundred points, don’t read too much into that being attributed to the tribulus.

Trust me, I’ve been involved in enough research around here and had my blood drawn enough to know my baseline levels and changes resulting from alterations in my program. [/quote]

When I originally responded to the studies post, I had to backspace over what I was about to say that I’m safe to say now after confirming with the guy out here on base (and what Brian said). A coworker out here with me did in fact say the same thing: he had his blood tested, and his T level did increase a little, and the only supplement he was on at the time was tribulus. This guy’s a cardio bunny, not into lifting at all, so I dont think a change in routine/health could easily be attributed to this. I’ve been side x side with the guy for over a year now and I’ve never seen him touch a weight.

Not saying that’s any more incontrovertible “proof” than we have for aliens, but, its food for thought, especially with Brian saying the exact same thing.

31

[quote]luckyluciano wrote:
I just want to feel younger in the Libido dept!

Lucky[/quote]

XTC/Cocaine and viagra.

Honestly the only “natural” equivalence I’ve READ about, mind you, is yohimbe bark I think? A guy out here on base mentioned that “in Korea, they sell natural herbs that worked like viagra” and I’m willing to bet thats all it was.

32

I’ve heard Yohimbe is terrible & dangerous?

33

[quote]luckyluciano wrote:
I’ve heard Yohimbe is terrible & dangerous?[/quote]

Oh, dunno. I’ve never had a reason/desire to take it so i havent researched it. I only know it can be used as an aphrodisiac. Do your homework before taking anything :slight_smile: