Yeah, I read that too, but I’m not using height as an analogy in that specific manner–I’m using it as an example of a phenotypic trait with a normal distribution that includes extreme values at the tails. And just as a ‘normal’ man can be >7 ft tall, so too might a ‘normal’ woman have a T level that is above the cutoff (especially if the cutoff is set at a conservative, ie, low, level). The difference is, in the case of the tall-but-normal man, the athletic advantage conveyed by his unusual phenotype is celebrated and sought after, whereas the athletic advantage adhering to the supra-andrenergic-but-normal woman will not only not be celebrated, it will actually bar her from competing.
Of course, you could lesson the likelihood of such an outcome by relaxing (ie, raising) the T level cutoff, but doing so risks the opposite problem; ie, allowing intersexed individuals to compete.
Complicated issue indeed.
(As an aside, the author’s assertion that “We do not compete in categories of height” is incorrect–there are plenty of ‘6 foot and under’ basketball leagues out there. Not to mention Physique competitions…)
Hey, Sky. I think that’s true for the majority of males and females, but these individuals are a very small percentage of the general population, but are HIGHLY represented in elite female athletics. That’s the rub.
This is what they’re talking about with regards to intersex.
This is from The Science of Sport blog -
"The definition of intersex, by the way, is a mismatch between chromosomal and anatomical sex. So it means a person is XY, but develops female primary sex characteristics because of a failure to use testosterone (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome), or a failure to produce a really important hormone from testosterone (alpha-5-reductase deficiency). It can also happen when you have an XX who produces excessive testosterone as a result of a condition like Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH), also as a result of an enzyme deficiency. However, that’s less common in sport, and the evidence from the long history of sex verification tests says that the XY-female is much more prevalent.
When this is the case, the result a person who is male by chromosome, but female by appearance. Or perhaps ambiguous, which makes classification very difficult. But it’s factually wrong to say they are male, and also factually wrong to say they are female, in the biological sense (gender is different, as I’ve pointed out, where you can’t tell someone what they are in the social context). They are intersex. And for sport, a person can be female gender, but not be allowed to participate on biological grounds, but that doesn’t make them male by default. That’s only true if you subscribe to a binary view of sex/gender, and that is, again, factually wrong."
Well then, what is right? (I did get part way through the science of sport blog, just not very far)
Intersex athletes have been competing as women for who knows how long (Speculate back to the '30’s?) as fair play. Is that an absolute and unfair advantage?
It reminds me of a guy I used to head to head with every year, and every year, he whooped my ass. The dude was just incredibly strong, explosively fast, and quite literally unstoppable. He finished high school with something like a 120+/1 record, virtually all pins, and did go on to the Olympic wrestling team, as everybody knew he would (later kicked off for behavior).
So what if he had 3 balls, or some crazy adrenal gland condition or what ever (not that he did)? That is the state of competition, and under the PIAA terms of competition, was fair play.
So I guess I’m for just keeping it simple. The IOC can parse it out to what ever extent they would like, but then it will quickly become less about competition and more about classification, and everybody gets a medal.
Then we can forget about trying to win. Just shoehorn in another category which has yet to be claimed or occupied. Make it more of a display of attorneys and scientific discovery than actual athleticism and competition.
I wonder, how would the equation change for them if Hubbard was black? Would that move the slider on the spectrum of oppression just enough to nudge Hubbard back into champion status? What happens when we pit favored liberal victim groups against each other? This could be a show on TV, I think.
But hey, outcomes like Hubbard’s will probably be rare events, right? There really can’t be a whole lot of really rich men out there with thoughts of becoming women and grabbing athletic glory as the sun begins to set, can there? I can’t imagine very many of our billions of people will have any interest in pursuing fame and notoriety as a transgender athlete. And if there are,who are we to judge? Why am I being so cynical?
In lower level events, high school and even college sports pre-testing, I’d imagine that’s true. For the Olympics, during the chromosome testing years, people like Caster would have been unable to compete with the females. She has a y chromosome, internal testes, and higher T levels typical of males (unless she’s taking meds that suppress her T). To my understanding, the science is limited, but most experts in the field seem to agree that T is the biggest factor in athletic advantage.
Sure. That’s another question. I don’t know anything about the idea that some men have a medical condition that makes them “super athletes.” I think men typically see endogenous/ natural T as acceptable, realizing that there’s a big range among men and that some people have a genetic advantage.
You’d have to ask some of the inter-sectional feminists about this one. Ha! It gets a little ridiculous, right? It’s like kids writing college essays about “hardship” trying to compete with each other about who has the saddest story.
Yeah. At Rio, there were no openly TG athletes, but there are certainly TG athletes cropping up. Several of the Judo or MMA female competitors have complained about having to fight TG MTF athletes like Fallon Fox. Ronda Rousey went on record saying she does not believe it’s fair, even if hormones are suppressed. I believe another woman had her occipital bone broken after being punched by a MTF competitor. I can’t remember her name, but she said the power behind this MTF person’s punches was like nothing she’d ever experienced. Hey, if you’re willing to let a biological man punch you in the face… What can I say. No way would I ever do that.
At least for me, it comes down to knowing that competition is going to be tough, and unless you are that one out of X, you are going to lose.
In less power-> more technique sports, testosterone may not be the only T factor. There’s time, training, and technique just off of the top of my head. @Basement_Gainz and @ActivitiesGuy also wrestled in a very competitive region(Lehigh Valley iirc), and could probably tell you about schools that have kids on the mat before kindergarten. You can have kids in their senior year that have 14-15 years refining their skills.
I think trying to boil competitive advantage down to androgen content is misguided. Even among just men some people are superior specimens for their sport.
Ussain Bolt is just plain better than every sprinter on earth at the 100m. It’s likely a combination of muscle fiber type, insertion points, starting at an early age AND work ethic. It’s literally “not fair” to all the other sprinters he’s so awesome.
The difference between Hubbard and Bolt is that Bolt didn’t change classifications to compete against weaker (genetically disatvantaged) opponents. Nothing Bolt did put his competitors at a disadvantage (other than hard work).
A friend of mine toured with them for 2 seasons on their staff. I pestered him endlessly about training secrets or anything that would set them apart from the rest of the field.
The answer: Nothing. They really don’t do anything particularly different. They’re (Bolt, Powell) really exceptionally talented and somehow well suited for their sport.
This whole discussion keeps reminding me of when Bender entered the Olympics as a fembot.
Hubbard’s win should be taken back, the difference in not only hormones but other genetic abilities and advantages that come with being a man are reason enough.
I would compare their win to this:
“The final team did comprise two players with IQs below 70 as required, but the other 10 posed as mentally disabled players with the help of fake medical certificates they were provided with.”
It is someone competing as something they are not and thus resulting in a unfair advantage against the competition. Bolt genetically being the best at running 100m is not unfair at all to competition.
Wow. That’s just terrible. I picture someday watching a movie of my life with God. I’d hate to have Him see the scene where I cheated the mentally disabled kids at basketball. Gosh, it’s almost like a SNL skit, it’s so bad.
I don’t see Hubbard as a purposeful cheater, but I suspect she may not have realized just how much she was going to crush her competition, and how much backlash there would be. She’s been silent since the comp. Someone here said it’s like the dog who caught the car. I think it would be a really nice thing if she stepped down. That would show a lot of character in my opinion.
This came up in the Kroc thread before, but if someone wants to join a co-ed softball team, nobody will care about possible TG advantages. Hey, you can probably even join a local women’s bowling/ softball league and nobody will care. At the local level in WLing, she could still enjoy training and lifting with these athletes, and hosting competitions at her gym, but I think she should stay off the women’s platform in serious competition. My opinion, but I think this is all in flux right now and new rules will emerge.
I got invited by some senior citizens to join their women’s bowling team. I wasn’t sure if I should be flattered or insulted!
I was the one who brought up the dog catching the tire analogy, but I meant it more cynically that you seem to have taken it. I meant that Hubbard was trying to abuse the system but was expecting push back. And then he was surprised when everyone just sort of let him do his thing.
It’s hard to argue that he was surprised by how well he did. Weightlifting is mostly non-interactive. He knew beforehand about what weight he would take his attempts at and could have easily looked at personal bests for the other competitors to get a good idea of where he was going to land.
Hey Silyak. Oh, yeah. I misunderstood your dog and car comment.
You’re right. It’s not like a runner who looks at the clock and is surprised to see that they had a really fast time. She likely knew what the other women were lifting, likely knew the NZ women’s records, and likely also knew what the female lifters in the Olympics were lifting. Most of us are going to look that kind of thing up, right? Who knows what Hubbard was thinking about what would happen. I suspect she’s convinced herself that it’s fair since it meets the current rules for TG athletes. I doubt she imagined that nearly everyone would greet it with either the polite cold shoulder, an eye roll, or a lot worse disrespect all over the internet. Who knows.
Yeah, WLing is going to be terrible for blending in with this kind of thing. If you’re one member of a volleyball team or one rower on a female crew team, you can see how your efforts aren’t necessarily going to make or break the competition. Not so with WLing. It’s all you. I wonder what she thought of the video after seeing herself walking onto the platform and standing next to all of the other lifters.
Oh, thats how they get you. The team that always bowls on Tuesdays picked up a 55 year old. So to “even things up” a little they figure they’ll slide a little somethin’ in there on their team.
I’ve never heard that!??!!? “Irish girls with sturdy stems” internet high five to Mrs. Gainz. Ha! I’ve been asked if I’m Irish several times, but I assumed it’s the higher incidence of green eyes or auburn/ lots of red in the hair. Maybe it’s the gams!?!?
Could be related to the trans issue. The calves really wanted to be glutes! (bad joke, sorry.) My husband has told me he has cankle fetish. HaHa!!. I’m pretty sure he’s lying to me, but it’s a very, very sweet lie.
